Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Then let me correct myself:
"Was it not like, literally impossible to DF these fights when they were relevant, since they weren't included in the Duty Finder then?"
relevant = current endgame

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Slightly true, pickup groups still happened even when they were relevant on even patch cycles. PF was much more primitive then and was locked to server population only.

Towards the release of heavensward, they unlocked T10 -> T13 in DF as well. All were in DF just before HW landed. They usually made it there during the odd patch cycle, 2.1, 2.3, 2.58 iirc?

The only fights you could not DF back then were T6 -> T9 SAVAGE, which required you to que up with a full pre-made.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That’s not even what would wipe groups: it would be meteor placement and the golem adds.

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And beyond that, fire and ice tethers, dive bombs, the shard in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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Slightly true, pickup groups still happened even when they were relevant on even patch cycles. PF was much more primitive then and was locked to server population only.

Towards the release of heavensward, they unlocked T10 -> T13 in DF as well. All were in DF just before HW landed. They usually made it there during the odd patch cycle, 2.1, 2.3, 2.58 iirc?

The only fights you could not DF back then were T6 -> T9 SAVAGE, which required you to que up with a full pre-made.

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This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

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Originally Posted by MeanDragon

So just to be clear:

The argument against adding it to roulettes is that it's too hard?

OK.

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Yeah sorry. I don't trust the skill levels of duty finder pugs enough to tolerate them in a savage level situation, thanks. I don't want to deal with someone who can't stay on Titan Hard's platform in T9. Or even T5 for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Yeah sorry. I don't trust the skill levels of duty finder pugs enough to tolerate them in a savage level situation, thanks. I don't want to deal with someone who can't stay on Titan Hard's platform in T9. Or even T5 for that matter.

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I would like to point out that MeanDragon did later acknowledge the state of affairs after having a disastrous garuda extreme run from DF.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

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They WERE the savage equivalent of their time but with the massive nerfs that were done across the board (least HP nerfs) they were not bad anymore.

The fact that they were in DF even at the following patch cycle, means that the argument of "putting in in DF Roulette " means "it won't be clearable" is kinda moot. While some will STILL try and justify that because it was considered "SAVAGE" level back then that makes it more in line with EX /current savages but that's just not entirely true. If Blue Mages locked to level 50 with piss poor skills can clear the fights even with some knowledge, when you actually look at the fights with proper battle classes, factor in echo, factor in overgearing and HP/damage nerfs, these fights hardly measure up against the current Savage tier raids and people still don't get that. One particular point to understand, is that there was no previous content at the time to compare Coil to in terms of difficulty.

However through years of content, we do have content to compare it too. The fact that mechanics have also been reused in MANY different story mode fights means we now have referring context for literally any mechanic in coil. That means the community can easily identify what to do from something they've run prior. I am astonished at how many people are missing this. Doing PURELY MSQ/Normal/Hard mode instances, exposes you to almost all but 1 or 2 mechanics in the whole series.

There are literally 1 or 2 mechanics in the last bosses of T5, T9 and T13 that are guarentee party wipes or at least a member death.

T5 -> Twister (literally dodged by moving away from where you were standing) not a definitive party wipe.

T9 -> Meteor proximity, Golem eating either another Golem or 4 meteors. Two tanks grab two seperate adds, ranged grabs the last one, pull towards meteors and kill. Party wipe.

T13-> Twister tethers away from party, seperate add from Bahamut.

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community. The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

If DF can handle M/F and Eden normal, it can absolutely handle coil.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And beyond that, fire and ice tethers, dive bombs, the shard in the middle.

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You were able to stand in for most fires, as the ice dragon, goes through the whole party before the next one, sans maybe a body or two (depends on server ticks), with average dps back then, the boss died before divebombs usually.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

The fact that they were in DF even at the following patch cycle, means that the argument of "putting in in DF Roulette " means "it won't be clearable" is kinda moot.

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O12S is in duty finder, que up for that and come back here after you get in and let us know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community.

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Let me correct you on this: the forum community thinks that these fights are too much for DUTY FINDER ROULETTES. Not that they’re particularly hard. And, frankly, defining them as too hard for DF is fairly reasonable, given how much people have complained on here in the past about normal mode trials and 24-mans being too hard to do: people on here spent weeks during HW claiming that Weeping City was too hard. That Final Steps of Faith was too hard (story mode, not EX). That Dun Scaith was too hard. That Rabanastre was too hard (Hashmal, specifically). That Construct 7 in Ridorana was too hard. That Castrum Fluminis was too hard. That the Will of the Moon and Requiem for Heroes MSQ solo instances were too hard. That Orbonne Monastery was too hard (again: only 24-man raid to receive automatic +10% Echo).

I never thought the Coils were overly complicated when I did them in HW, and I don’t think they’re hard now. But I also recognize that my definitions of “hard” and “easy” vary substantially from other people’s definitions. I raid Savage. I do Ultimate fights. Of course, I don’t think Coil is hard. But most players in DF don’t raid Savage or do Ultimate, so their definitions are likely going to be different from mine. Based on what the forum does classify as “hard content”, I’m sure Coil would fall in the same boat.

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The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

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I still disagree with this. I don’t think very highly of the average skill level of DF. Not when you still get DPS that refuse to AOE, healers that refuse to DPS, tanks that refuse to pop cooldowns for busters, and people that die to the same mechanic three times in a row.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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The fact that you disagree, is interesting. All of the fights you mentioned have higher clear rates on DF then disbands, sans maybe at the time Orbonne Monastery, the most difficult mechanically 24 man ever introduced and that only got echo, no mechanic or HP nerfs.
In fact most content in story mode, recieves echo. Coil recieved mechanic nerfs, hp nerfs AND echo.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

O12S is in duty finder, que up for that and come back here after you get in and let us know how it goes.

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Coil was ONLY EVER equivalent to today's standards of savage content prenerf. How people (including you), post all these nerfs, still consider these fights overtly difficult is asinine. They are nowhere near as punishing by today's standards of savage.

Steps of Faith, literally had one major mechanic that required 3 people to execute simultaneously and people were complaining and failing to beat it. Why? The HP on the boss was soo high, it required proper execution of the missle at LEAST two times but preferably all three with low DPS. This was EASILY RECTIFIED with an explanation by even one person of the mechanic. But no one seems to be able to properly explain so the boss wasn't dying in time due to failed 2nd and third missles.

How did they nerf it? They didnt nerf the mechanics at all. They added echo and reduced boss HP, same nerfs that were done to most of coils in one form or another and it increased clear rates dramatically by making the dps checks nowhere near as tight. Again, most of this is exactly how current coil feels. You would need to actually try to do no damage to see every single mechanic/combo in the fights.

It's only Second Coil that was severely nerfed (sans T9) because people back when complained that it was too hard (T7 was a wall for people because things like this could happen). The nerfs in Final Coil only applied to the trash mobs outside of the boss arenas.

All of that said, one (or more) specific mechanic of Coil fights can make or break a random DF group. T7 could have Melusine hitting like a truck (with instant kill Flaming Circles) because people didn't pay attention to their Cursed Voice/Shrieks. T8 could cause wipes because no one was handling the towers, OT didn't stand in the boss to prevent it from turning when it confuses the MT, no one stacked the right amount for Ballistic Missile (if you've run ARF, you'll notice that most DF randos never stack right and always run away with/from Gaseous Bomb), or Allagan Field in general. T10 I 100% expect a person to die every time to the charge attack. T11 I expect the add phase to be wipe central (and if they manage to get past that, the tethers). T12 probably the Black Fires, blue fires, etc. T13 the Megaflares, Flare Stars, Tempest Wings, Akh Morn, Dive Bombs, etc.

I said this before, but I'll say it again. People want a quick and easy run. It's because of this mindset that dungeons like Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius were nerfed. Unless SE decide to nerf all of Coil to the point where Alte Roite Savage is harder, I cannot see DF roulette randos staying after one wipe (people still leave after one wipe in Chrysalis).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's only Second Coil that was severely nerfed (sans T9) because people back when complained that it was too hard (T7 was a wall for people because things like this could happen). The nerfs in Final Coil only applied to the trash mobs outside of the boss arenas.

All of that said, one (or more) specific mechanic of Coil fights can make or break a random DF group. T7 could have Melusine hitting like a truck (with instant kill Flaming Circles) because people didn't pay attention to their Cursed Voice/Shrieks. T8 could cause wipes because no one was handling the towers, OT didn't stand in the boss to prevent it from turning when it confuses the MT, no one stacked the right amount for Ballistic Missile (if you've run ARF, you'll notice that most DF randos never stack right and always run away with/from Gaseous Bomb), or Allagan Field in general.

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Alot of these mentions are not one shots or even two shots anymore. Post nerfs and overgearing, you can consistently "fail" these mechanics mentioned and NOT outright wipe.

It takes a literal effort to fail MULTIPLE mechanics in a row to wipe. Even DF is capable to execute one or two mechanics consistent enough. Anyone saying otherwise is outright lying to themselves.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

The fact that you disagree, is interesting. All of the fights you mentioned have higher clear rates on DF then disbands, sans maybe at the time Orbonne Monastery, the most difficult mechanically 24 man ever introduced and that only got echo, no mechanic or HP nerfs.

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I disagree that Coil would be nice and easy in Duty Finder because I know how bad Duty Finder can be with simple fights, not because I personally find the content hard (though, I do love how you keep insisting I think it’s hard). I’m not disillusioned enough to think that players wouldn’t struggle with the harder floors. And when I have runs like my Copied Factory last night, where there was a total of over 130 raises across all 3 alliances with only 7 new people, I feel like my opinion is relatively justified. My first clear of Copied didn’t have half that number of raises with everyone being new. I raised a BLM in my alliance 15 times. No, they were not new to the raid.

There would be no reason to put them in there when people would just do to them what they do to Alliance raids that aren’t LotA or ST: leave and take the 30-minute penalty because the penalty is shorter than attempting to clear with random players who don’t want to pay attention. I’m not one to leave content, and I actually have quite a bit of patience with people; but I likely wouldn’t waste my time trying to teach T9 to people who refused to listen to me. It’s frustrating enough when you get EXs in Mentor Roulette and people won’t listen.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Unless SE decide to nerf all of Coil to the point where Alte Roite Savage is harder, I cannot see DF roulette randos staying after one wipe (people still leave after one wipe in Chrysalis).

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That would certainly have to be quite the nerf. Because Alte Roite doesn’t even qualify as Savage content.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Alot of these mentions are not one shots or even two shots anymore. Post nerfs and overgearing, you can consistently "fail" these mechanics mentioned and NOT outright wipe.

It takes a literal effort to fail MULTIPLE mechanics in a row to wipe. Even DF is capable to execute one or two mechanics consistent enough. Anyone saying otherwise is outright lying to themselves.

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And which ones are those? Melusine gains a damage up buff every time she's yelled at (Cursed Voice not being aimed out of the arena/Renauds and Shriek not being blocked. Also Melusine looking at Petrifaction cast by Prosector), so I can foresee her one shotting people with Flame Circle (or nearly killing them and making healers panic) or the tank with her tank buster (that doesn't have a cast). T8's Ballistic Missile still needs to be handled correctly as far as I know and if no one handles the confused tank correctly (or the OT doesn't tank swap), then the boss is gonna turn and cleave the group with Bleed. Allagan Field is going to wipe groups if no one protects them.

If people still wipe to Chrysalis in roulette, then wipes are guaranteed in a roulette involving Coil. People will quit these faster than they do Orbonne... or Shinryu when it was 3.0.

I would never touch the roulette again if these were added to it. Some of the fights are easy, yeah, but a lot of people don't want to waste time teaching new people (We all know this is true) and some of those fights were literal hell to do when it was current.

I'm game for teaching people older fights. But only when I'm in the mood for something as stressful as Coil. The current 8 man raid roulette is good the way it is. If you want to do coil, make a PF for it.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And which ones are those? Melusine gains a damage up buff every time she's yelled at (Cursed Voice not being aimed out of the arena/Renauds and Shriek not being blocked. Also Melusine looking at Petrifaction cast by Prosector), so I can foresee her one shotting people with Flame Circle (or nearly killing them and making healers panic) or the tank with her tank buster (that doesn't have a cast). T8's Ballistic Missile still needs to be handled correctly as far as I know and if no one handles the confused tank correctly (or the OT doesn't tank swap), then the boss is gonna turn and cleave the group with Bleed. Allagan Field is going to wipe groups if no one protects them.

If people still wipe to Chrysalis in roulette, then wipes are guaranteed in a roulette involving Coil. People will quit these faster than they do Orbonne... or Shinryu when it was 3.0.

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Before actually assuming these mechanics are that deadly, understand that these weren't outright wipe offenses pre 3.0. It is either a collective effort of failed mechanics, or failure of a single specific mechanic (of the few that can even wipe a party) that is. Hop into these instances right now and you will down these fights ignoring almost every mechanic you mentioned. The fights progress too fast for it to be any outright life threatening thing. Hell, you can kill the boss before Allagan Field goes off depending on DPS.

I would love to see Coil in roulette! Such a great story locked behind it but the only way to do is to be zerged through it. It kills the whole experience D:

I'd also like to add that I'm honestly not too keen on the idea of nerfing the rest of the fights into the ground to make them casual content, either. Mostly because it's massively entertaining to jump into an unsync run and watch the level-cap players naively trying to faceroll, while I, much lower level, execute mechanics and understand why we're wiping time and again. I find it endlessly hilarious when overgeared overleveled players get put in their place by some ancient mechanics that are still 100% required. (pretty sure this only applies to T9 at this point, maybe T11?)

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Before actually assuming these mechanics are that deadly, understand that these weren't outright wipe offenses pre 3.0. It is either a collective effort of failed mechanics, or failure of a single specific mechanic (of the few that can even wipe a party) that is. Hop into these instances right now and you will down these fights ignoring almost every mechanic you mentioned. The fights progress too fast for it to be any outright life threatening thing. Hell, you can kill the boss before Allagan Field goes off depending on DPS.

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I'm assuming they're deadly based on what I expect in Duty Finder and my expectations are always low in that regard (because the bad experiences I've had outweigh the quick and easy runs I've had). I will always expect the OT to either never grab the add, or be too late to. I am always going to expect the tank and melee DPS to be petrified because they're getting hit by Cursed Voice. I expect everyone to be petrified every so often by Cursed Shriek (and if at a bad time, the melee DPS might die to the AoE). I expect one or more DPS to ignore the adds. I expect the ranged DPS to be stacked on top of each other and the healers at some point (and depending on how many damage up stacks Melusine has, the wombo combo will kill them). The mechanics do hurt when ignored and can be outright deadly depending on the group you get in Duty Finder. Certain fights nigh impossible ( especially T9, T11 and T13. Maybe even T12 because of black, blue and red fire and Flames of Unforgiveness, etc).

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

They WERE the savage equivalent of their time but with the massive nerfs that were done across the board (least HP nerfs) they were not bad anymore.

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Cool lets also add Gordias savage as well since it qualifies all those conditions too, love to see how random df groups handle Nisi, Royal Pentacle, Digititus and hand of pain sync'd XD

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I would love to see Coil in roulette! Such a great story locked behind it but the only way to do is to be zerged through it. It kills the whole experience D:

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you still zerg through it synced, you need to do it with minimum item level + remove all accessories.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community. The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

If DF can handle M/F and Eden normal, it can absolutely handle coil.

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Look in turn by even suggesting we get all of Coil in raid rou, you're forcing ones like T9 to be a part of it. Giving people something like T1-4 is only giving them a snippet of the story and in turn brings more posts on here asking "Why aren't the rest of Coils in here!?!?" which then we need to have this whole conversation again about them. If you yourself have to argue that T9 is too tough for duty finder then do not be in support of Coils. You either get them all or get none. That's like if Alexander had only A1-A4 and nothing else in normal raid rou just because.

I want to state as well these rous are meant to be your daily login things, something you do each day just for the sake of it. It's not meant to be a taxing deal, it's just meant to be done at a casual pace. Even in these rous like normal raid people still abandon on O11N, O12N, and E4N. The amount of times I've been put into O12N as a party in progress was insane, because people can't actually handle the split tanking. If you're telling me these knuckleheads are the ones you may be stuck in for Coil and we have to votekick them out or leave and eat our penalty to escape is a load of bull.

If they had a specific coils rou, for the purpose of just running just that I can see that being a thing, HOWEVER the interest in that rou would be very minimal and I'm sure the majority would rather opt in for unsynced story runs instead after trying some of the fights synced. Hell a rou should be given instead to like Rival Wings instead. Something that requires more people, and is absolutely dead enough that a discord community has to bring up the slack for SE and them not making an actual rou for the damn mode for daily bonuses.

I know your heart is in the right place, I really do. But for something as casual as normal raid rou is meant to be we do not need the Coil baggage. We are not doubting the player base being able to clear this content, we are more so doubting the DF base to not clearing the content in an efficient manner as based on previous experiences between 8/24 man content and the current DF trends of like leaving after a single wipe.

I'm sure by some miracle a bunch of randos in DF would clear a fight like T9 after enough effort, however for a payout as small as normal raid rou gives and the amount of time/frustration put into just getting that win doesn't make any sense, especially when the looming thought you could do it all over again tomorrow with a new set of people sticks in your head.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

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I understand completely what you are saying, and largely agree with your mindset. My argument stands that these fights with echo, hp/mechanics nerfs and gear overleveling have trivialized almost every single mechanic in coil including things like DPS checks. The fact is majority of the people in protest here, have not hopped into coil recently and only understand the difficulty from memory. These fights are pathetically easy now. Sure there exist still one or two mechanics that are literal party wipes but considering all the other things have been reduced to "just heal through", I do not believe it is a valid argument to say the community will fail consistently to execute one or two mechanics in only T5, T9 and T13 especially after they are explained.

We have normal/story based content that contains add/transition phases with multiple mechanics sometimes and if you don't execute you wipe. People get through this content no issue all the time. I still invite everyone to go back into Coil now in 5.0 DF /PF and give an honest assessment on how much more tough these fights are compared to some of the current content in Roulettes across the board. They are on par NOW with some of the things that came after and their mechanics have been reused in several different content, from Alliance Raids, to dungeon bosses to story mode raid content.

People will easily be able to identify how to handle the mechanics now cause they have references. It's the same way people reuse the term "Divebombs", a T5 originating term, to describe any line sweeping AoEs and most people who did Coils immediately know what that was.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Cool lets also add Gordias savage as well since it qualifies all those conditions too, love to see how random df groups handle Nisi, Royal Pentacle, Digititus and hand of pain sync'd XD

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Besides the fact this contributes nothing to the conversation, Coil doesn't actually compare in the same vein of difficulty as Gordian Savage by FAR. You can actually bullet through mechanics in Coil because the player damage is that high versus boss HP unlike Gordias. So this comment is a waste but cute.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Besides the fact this contributes nothing to the conversation, Coil doesn't actually compare in the same vein of difficulty as Gordian Savage by FAR. You can actually bullet through mechanics in Coil because the player damage is that high versus boss HP unlike Gordias. So this comment is a waste but cute.

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A1S brute force
A2S brute force
A3S do mechanics
A4S ignore Nisi and brute force

This is how we handle these turns hell A1S was brute forced by most everybody for light farming back in HW.

A1S-A3S all received mechanical nerfs, hp nerf and plenty of echo.
A4S hp and echo

The only mechanic that doesn't reappear is Nisi/Royal pentacle everything else has appeared in dungeons/trials/nm raids

Exactly like coil which your advocating for, yet you know the playerbase will not be able to handle these being in a roulette yet coil which has some fights that are more demanding than A1S and A2S sync'd should be, i think that speaks volumes about how well such things will go don't you? and i also think that it now has contributed properly to the discussion with this context no?

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Exactly like coil which your advocating for, yet you know the playerbase will not be able to handle these being in a roulette yet coil which has some fights that are more demanding than A1S and A2S sync'd should be, i think that speaks volumes about how well such things will go don't you? and i also think that it now has contributed properly to the discussion with this context no?

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Nope not exactly. Coil is STILL less difficult than those.

I also would like to point out you squish all of Alex down to 4 fights particularly A1S through A4S but yet you avoid to mention how all the other fights will absolutely crush DF on average because almost all of them have full party wipe mechanics on every floor. Hell even in your example, the only floor without a full party wipe mechanic might be A1S and A2S.

My argument for coils exists for all fights with T5, T9, and T13 being the only fights that cannot outright be zerged though contrary to popular belief, T5 is very close to being a zerg fight, doesnt even have a party wipe mechanic, only individual one shots, T9 being the only one you currently have to watch a mechanic for (Golem phase specifically), and T13 towers, twisters tethers. Every other fight is fairly a zerg fest fight and most mechanics/combos are either failed, ignored or never seen.

My segway example is that fights like 012N and Eden Normal require roughly the same amount of coordination in comparison to any fight in Coil that actually contains some mechanic you need to "respect".

You can knock people off in E3 Leviathan, how is that so different than Twisters in T13 which if not moved away from the group, can one shot or ping pong people into walls?

If you don't seperate the adds far enough (usually pulled to the walls) in Crown of the immaculate, they buff and wipe the party with AoEs, how different is that really from Golems who you do the exact same with but have to be pulled around the arena to grab a meteor? One extra step, but the essence of the encounter is the exact same.

Coil is not as over complicated as people are making it seem.

Personally, I'd love to have Coils on roulette, but most players'd have expected to just be done with raid roulette in 5 mins or less like it currently is and move on to their next dailies.
You most likely can't zerg final coil and most second coil in 5 mins with current randos on DF, especially not with new level 50 players with ilevel 100.

Exactly. People want quick and easy clears. If they can't have that, they would sooner abandon the duty, or vote to abandon it. If T9, T11, T12 and T13 were to show up, people will probably leave the second they see it. If wipes happen in T5, T7 and T8, people will most likely leave (especially if the wipes happen more than once).

While we're at it, can we put Urth's Fount in trial roulette?

I would stop running that roulette if this happened.

Coils doesn't have a normal and savage mode. It's pretty much all hard mode and you will never get clears if you toss it into the roulette. People will wipe and vote abandon.

Coils are on par with primal ex fights with learning.

You think you do, but you don't. Do not put coil in normal raid roulette.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

you still zerg through it synced, you need to do it with minimum item level + remove all accessories.

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So if we can still zerg through it sync, why isn't it in roulette again? It sounds like its easy enough to be in there.

No, sorry, this is a terrible idea to put coils in the raid roulette.


Coils are actually difficult - Back in 2.x (ARR) there was no normal mode and savage mode for raids - Coils was one difficulty for midcore raiders and above. Compare that to Alexander and Omega and Eden normal, which are designed to be clearable by even the greenest of players, and there would be a massive disconnect between difficulty levels. There was a "savage" second coils, but this was akin to what ultimate is today, designed to be extremely difficult to beat and take months for any group to achieve world first, which it did.

This isnt some "Respecc content" meme, but Coils really should be respected for what it was at the time. Coils is still regarded by many to be the best raid this game has had to date, and throwing it in to a roulette would anger a lot of those players. That would be like adding Alexander and Omega savage to raid roulette which, if they're going to do that, would also anger people. Why spend weeks or months at a time learning a tier in one expansion, only for it to become DF content a few years down the line?

Sorry, but yea, very stupid idea.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

My argument for coils exists for all fights with T5, T9, and T13 being the only fights that cannot outright be zerged though contrary to popular belief, T5 is very close to being a zerg fight, doesnt even have a party wipe mechanic, only individual one shots, T9 being the only one you currently have to watch a mechanic for (Golem phase specifically), and T13 towers, twisters tethers. Every other fight is fairly a zerg fest fight and most mechanics/combos are either failed, ignored or never seen.

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Haha you gotta be trolling, right?

T1 - Dooable, as it should be, its the very first turn, designed for fairly fresh 50s to be an introduction to raids regardless of previous experience in MMOs
T2 - Has Enrage strat still, but that would also require someone to know about that strat. If they dont? Prepare for your average DF group to wipe for a full 90 minutes on allagan rot and vote disband.
T3 - Erm....
T4 - With Echo, yes this is one of the few fights that can be zerged through.
T5 - Divebombs, Twisters, Adds, Fetter puddles. One wrong move can spell a wipe.
T6 - I dont know why you expect the average DF group to have the coordination required for placing the briars, or even what to do with them, or how to deal with the bees or slimes.
T7 - *Whole DF group gets petrified by one person making a mistake, oneshot by cyclops.*
T8 - The towers actually require cordination - Even unsynced at lvl 80 those things can still oneshot you unless you kill the boss quick enough, and if a lvl 80 in current gear can barely do it solo, i dont know how you expect 8x synced lvl 50's to do it, especially as more mechanics appear with more people.
T9 - Yea...No.
T10 - Heat Lightning, wild charge...Needing cordinated stacking and tanking and positioning should be enough to shoot this one down to not be possible in your everyday roulette
T11 - Once again, needs coordinated positioning.
T12 - I dont know how you expect DF to be able to deal with the puddles, Bennus, fountains and all the debuffs etc.
T13 - LOL

So in conclusion...Maybe 3 or 4 of the 12 would be possible in DF, and also have similar difficulty with echo/nerfs as Alexander/Omega/Eden NORMAL MODE, that's what you have to remember, this is NORMAL RAIDS ROULETTE, not SAVAGE RAIDS ROULETTE. The difficulty has to be similar, or people would just leave if they get a fight that needs similar or greater coordination than your average extreme trial...and if they have to exclude even a single fight from the roulette, then what is the point in adding it? The roulettes exist as a way to find players for old content, if they didn't exist then people queueing for lvl 50-70 24 man raids, or lvl 60-70 8 man normal raids would be sitting in queue for hours. If you want to find a group for old savage or extreme content, that's what PF is for. If they add coils to normal raid roulette, they might aswell by that logic add in Alexander and omega savage to it aswell, because that's old content too of a similar difficulty level.

As a heads up, the Renauds don't do instant death damage any more. The only threat from T7 is how many damage up stacks she gets from being yelled/shrieked at and if the ranged DPS are standing too close to each other and if the melee DPS are petrified when Melusine uses her AoE.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

snip

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Based on everything you've said, I can confirm you haven't actually tried any of these fights in 5.0.

Majority of the things you mentioned, you don't actually see / don't go off in the fights. I mean the fact you think T2 is hurting anyone is kinda proof of that. T7 Renauds haven't one shotted since pre Final Coil. Continue the fear-mongering.

Y'know, all this discussion on difficulty, and we haven't even stopped to consider the additional reason this shouldn't be added to roulettes. Cutscenes. Forget fights being too difficult, players will absolutely definitely bail just to not be stuck waiting for others watching the loooong scenes before some of the raids even start.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Y'know, all this discussion on difficulty, and we haven't even stopped to consider the additional reason this shouldn't be added to roulettes. Cutscenes. Forget fights being too difficult, players will absolutely definitely bail just to not be stuck waiting for others watching the loooong scenes before some of the raids even start.

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The Bahamut cutscene in 13 I believe is almost four minutes long or somewhere in that ballpark. It was rough even running it for the first time since you want to jump right in but everyone else is still in it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

While we're at it, can we put Urth's Fount in trial roulette?

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It's alright, just run Mentor rou and you'll get that place more then you ever imagined.

I got it three days in a row once, all sprouts, co-tank ran in to pull using all of their CD's and died within the first 12 seconds. At some points I'd rather just get Praetorium or Castrum just to zen out from the frustration.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Based on everything you've said, I can confirm you haven't actually tried any of these fights in 5.0.

Majority of the things you mentioned, you don't actually see / don't go off in the fights. I mean the fact you think T2 is hurting anyone is kinda proof of that. T7 Renauds haven't one shotted since pre Final Coil. Continue the fear-mongering.

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Do you earnestly trust the zoomers in DF to be able to handle golem placements or elemental dance in T9? There's your reason not to put Coil into DF.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Based on everything you've said, I can confirm you haven't actually tried any of these fights in 5.0.

Majority of the things you mentioned, you don't actually see / don't go off in the fights. I mean the fact you think T2 is hurting anyone is kinda proof of that. T7 Renauds haven't one shotted since pre Final Coil. Continue the fear-mongering.

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Based on all you said, I can confirm you haven't run duties without your friends or FC mates for years.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Based on everything you've said, I can confirm you haven't actually tried any of these fights in 5.0.

Majority of the things you mentioned, you don't actually see / don't go off in the fights. I mean the fact you think T2 is hurting anyone is kinda proof of that. T7 Renauds haven't one shotted since pre Final Coil. Continue the fear-mongering.

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...have you done those fights in 5.0 with the "handicaps" you need to expect in your average DF-group including, but not limited to:
...people barely knowing the basics of their job
...tanks not knowing what provoke or a cooldown is
...people not knowing the mechanics of the fight
...people not speaking english or simply not reading the chat/taking advice, therefor making communication on a level thats required for those fights impossible
...people showing up undergeared, at least in critical areas - I'll give you that coil has a minimum ilvl requirement and I'm not sure how accurate that is tunes to the current level of difficulty in those fights, but I do know - and regularly see - people who "cheat" their ilvl by upgrading their right side but leaving key-pieces like the weapon at a much lower ilvl, like all poetics-accessories but a ilvl45 NQ crafted weapon.
...people with an attitude of "this needs to be faceroll easy and done in one pull", therefor not listening to any advice

I'll admit that the last - and only - time I tried those fights in DF was right when they were put there and it actually worked for T6 and 7 as I recall, because we had 7/8 people who queued knew what they were doing already.
Thats not gonna be the norm... I'll accept that the fights got nerfed - but did they seriously got nerfed so much that 8 clueless people with possibly bad/wrong gear, no way to communicate with each other and no real knowledge of their job and standard mechanics (oh, how often have I seen level 60+ people run away with stack-markers...) can beat them as easly as Alexander, Omega or Eden NM? Because I seriously doubt that. You can probably jump a lot of the more deadly mechanics if you go in with an overgeared party in which everyone knows how to play and what to do - but thats not what you can expect in DF...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

but thats not what you can expect in DF...

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While I understand your valid argument, I don't think any single one of those things directly matters largely because none of which you pointed out is somehow avoided in later content with similar mechanics to coil. You get the same terribles if they are gonna exist regardless and you boot/kick or disband accordingly. Here's another idea, if you and anyone was THAT worried, that it can't somehow be done, then simply implement the same lock that already exists on roulettes when new content is added, they need to beat the fight before the roulette is active. Anyone whose already did coils will be in the DF pool. Also ftr, free gear you get from MSQ already out levels coils ilvl130 cap. It's fear mongering to express that the average player on DF will both:

1) Not meet the minimum ilvl for coil
And
2) Also not be over ilvl and synced down

That's just not as common as anyone tries to point out and if you gate the roulette for those that haven't beaten it, you lose nothing as now people will simply move to unlock it again as they do every single time normals are added. What a better time then the lull of a non raid season (like now) where people can be invested into something again. These fights are fairly zerg friendly but most haven't went in recently to see that.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Based on all you said, I can confirm you haven't run duties without your friends or FC mates for years.

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Nice troll. Too much incompetence though.