Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

During previous imbalance: "Could we balance this?"

During current imbalance: "Could we balance this?"

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Thank you. Yes there are people who fight imbalance even when they are not impacted (or in this case even favored) by it. It's called integrity, not whining, although it might look like this.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I really shouldn't have to be the one saying this considering I'm the newbie that learned black mage this tier. It's plain as day and immediately stands out as a strength of the job. Perhaps MP bars and enochian timers should be frozen when no target is present to foster more parity between toolkits. You might not understand the similarity between polyglot and aetherflow, but perhaps this one is more palatable to you.

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It's easy to lose the trees for the forests.

Starting off at 100% due to Umbral Soul is still a net loss due to the lost GCDs. Your time in Ice is heavily minimized to start with, so skipping a phase or two doesn't affect your final tally in a meaningful way. Much the same way that Ruin 4 getting a greater percentage of your GCDs due to Maelstrom wouldn't elevate your average damage that much.

Objectively I can't really argue against the fact Aetherflow is a more flexible resource gate than current Trance, but subjectively, rigid timers is all I know and work around, polyglot excluded. It's the same issue Machinist worked around in Stormblood with strict wildfire windows.

We finally get to at least experience high damage reward for the hard effort that is The SMN's incredibly clunky and hard to optimize rotation..

But people are literally inderectly yelling "nerf please"

Until the job gets the rework or QoL adjustments that it so badly needs i believe the amount of pay off damage we are currently getting should stay as it is.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

We finally get to at least experience high damage reward for the hard effort that is The SMN's incredibly clunky and hard to optimize rotation..

But people are literally inderectly yelling "nerf please"

Until the job gets the rework or QoL adjustments that it so badly needs i believe the amount of pay off damage we are currently getting should stay as it is.

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Smn has a "new" rotation and has always been more complex to learn for the 1st time compared to Blm or Rdm...

but once you know the rotation, its easier to optimise in new fights (looking at the top parsers at day one of this patch were all Smn).., whereas Blm are really hard to optimise in (new) fights or many endraid fights (due to heavy movement)..

Smn has never been so mobile as of 5.1 and has good / great Dps and feels very responsive (compared to any previous patches)..

only Bahamut & Phönix moving and not shooting is the last QOL Smn imo still needs (but that "dont move" is probably even intended from SE.., somewhat like Blm LL)

Well I prefer pet damage to be high and if nerfs are need, take them out of ruin. They could also add a cast timer to Egi Assault where you write in the book for 2.5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well I prefer pet damage to be high and if nerfs are need, take them out of ruin. They could also add a cast timer to Egi Assault where you write in the book for 2.5 seconds.

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That defeats the primary purpose for the change, which was to remove some of the unnecessary rooting the job had.

Just get rid of the raise.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They could also add a cast timer to Egi Assault where you write in the book for 2.5 seconds.

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Nope. That would be absolutely terrible, and brings more problems.
Also they should just nerf the DoTs back instead, better if they outright remove them instead and then buff the pet damage but some people like the DoTs on SMN apparently.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Thank you. Yes there are people who fight imbalance even when they are not impacted (or in this case even favored) by it. It's called integrity, not whining, although it might look like this.

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I appreciate when people recognise it for what it genuinely is.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Nope. That would be absolutely terrible, and brings more problems.
Also they should just nerf the DoTs back instead, better if they outright remove them instead and then buff the pet damage but some people like the DoTs on SMN apparently.

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They'll probably reduce Tri-disaster potency to (something around) 250 and return R4 and DoT potencies to what they were before. Even Egi Assaults may get a potency reduction, though I prefer they leave those as they are now since a lot of people were asking for Egi Assaults to be stronger and we got it now.

After a few days of log updated we get more data, i find smn is actually okay, they still lose from a BLM in a fight that dont need move much and even in a fight where people need to mive much they still lose to a max potential BLM (Hades top is back to BLM whoops! Yes)

If anything need fixing its not damage output, but rather mobility... SMN is so mobile compared to BLM(which if you ask me is actually mobile enough but need planning which most player cant cassually be done) which make their damage near equal... and dont forget RDM the poor guys need a buff much in all department except raise ;)

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

They'll probably reduce Tri-disaster potency to (something around) 250 and return R4 and DoT potencies to what they were before. Even Egi Assaults may get a potency reduction, though I prefer they leave those as they are now since a lot of people were asking for Egi Assaults to be stronger and we got it now.

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No is too much ,
dont abuse,
is not op at this point .
Summoner does not need a big nerf .

Yes but 2.5 gcd on egi assault and 2.5 gcd on r4 = cancer
they will nerf the rez or devotion .

the summoner shines again that people want to demolish it again

the summoner community never complained when the black mage was op during a entire raid tier.

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Originally Posted by remiff

Yes but 2.5 gcd on egi assault and 2.5 gcd on r4 = cancer
they will nerf the rez or devotion .

the summoner shines again that people want to demolish it again

the summoner community never complained when the black mage was op during a entire raid tier.

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SMN mechanically is fine. Reverting Ruin IV’s buff and taking a bit from Tri-Disaster is fair. I’d prefer to keep the DoT and pet potency as is.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

After a few days of log updated we get more data

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Really curious what data you're looking at, because SMN is beating BLM on every fight in Eden right now? Even for top parses it's ahead on 3/4 of them. It's only getting more obvious that SMN was egregiously over-buffed. The post-patch change is way out of line with the other Jobs that got adjusted upwards - RDM, MCH, DNC, and SAM. SMN's gains are 60-70% higher than RDM, which has seen the second-biggest increase in output. E1S? SMN is up 12%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was only 2%. E2S? SMN is up 12%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 10%. E3S? SMN is up 11%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 7%. E4S? SMN is up 11%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 9%.

This is one of the biggest buffs that I can ever remember in a non-expansion patch, and it's all the more curious because SMN was not even the worst off. Combined with its ridiculous mobility and the noticeable slowing of its frenetic playstyle, I'm not even sure why SMN should be beating RDM. (And incidentally, RDM is exactly where it ought to be: 2-4% behind BLM.)

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Originally Posted by Miminming

After a few days of log updated we get more data, i find smn is actually okay, they still lose from a BLM in a fight that dont need move much and even in a fight where people need to mive much they still lose to a max potential BLM (Hades top is back to BLM whoops! Yes)

If anything need fixing its not damage output, but rather mobility... SMN is so mobile compared to BLM(which if you ask me is actually mobile enough but need planning which most player cant cassually be done) which make their damage near equal... and dont forget RDM the poor guys need a buff much in all department except raise ;)

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How can you classify a job with vastly better utility doing equal to superior damage okay? Summoner brings more to the table than Black Mage and is inherently less risky. Even without Resurrection, its still the better Caster. With it? There's no question. The bigger issue, however, is how Summoner compares against Red Mage. Both have a battle raise yet one leaves the other in its dust.

Simply put, Summoner either does everything better or its few shortcomings aren't enough of a hindrance to slow it down.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

How can you classify a job with vastly better utility doing equal to superior damage okay? Summoner brings more to the table than Black Mage and is inherently less risky. Even without Resurrection, its still the better Caster. With it? There's no question. The bigger issue, however, is how Summoner compares against Red Mage. Both have a battle raise yet one leaves the other in its dust.

Simply put, Summoner either does everything better or its few shortcomings aren't enough of a hindrance to slow it down.

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I mean sure, but get rid of the Raise and it's mostly fine.

I'll bang this drum as much as I can. It's always been about the raise. The moment it gets taken out of the picture, it doesn't really matter if Black Mage isn't the top damage dealer. The crown's nice, sure, but that crown has changed heads so many times you really shouldn't look inside it. What matters is that they aren't obsolete, and that's what raise does.

It is a binary "Is/Isn't" obsolete switch. It needs to go, or it needs to be heavily adjusted and shared, or it needs something that provides enough of the same boon.

Smn might get nerfed, ..., but when looking at more data, Smn 5.1 is not as OP as 4.1 was back than (damage-wise), when in 4.x Smn got a nerf for being too OP in 4.1

imo Smn shouldnt get a nerf, instead Blm should get a slight buff (if SE wants to keep up these heavy movement fights in the future)

Smn is in a good dps spot overall, when looking at its numbers now, it shouldnt be nerfed (or only barely)

just Smn dps is overall too strong overall compared to Blm (and Smn are almost too mobile too for that damage output too)

TLTR:

Smn seems great, but for its (new) great mobility, its too strong compared to Blm..

leave Smn as it is (dps and mobility), instead buff Blm slightly

.... or nerf Smn single target damage a bit, but buff back its aoe damage again..., while adding more (stacked) add phased in savage raids and Ex trials..

giving back Smns old identity of (good ST dps, but great aoe dps)
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but truthfully Smn atm doesnt really need a change / nerf..

(Blm might need w slight buff though, .. especially if the next savage tier or ultimate keeps turning up the notch on movement)

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Originally Posted by remiff

the summoner community never complained when the black mage was op during a entire raid tier.

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You must be remembering a different community altogether. Many smns and rdms complained in game, on social media, in discord servers. Many smns and rdms who switched to blm for the tier complained because it was that much better in damage (and feel of execution in the case of smn).

The job may be shining right now, but the brilliance is too much that it's going to blind people due to their own subjective definitions as to what counts as a balanced state for PvE DPS as a whole. Again while comparing the other casters vs BLM is important, that's not what the big picture is about right now. Especially with The Epic of Alexander (Ultimate) looming around the corner.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

Really curious what data you're looking at, because SMN is beating BLM on every fight in Eden right now? Even for top parses it's ahead on 3/4 of them. It's only getting more obvious that SMN was egregiously over-buffed. The post-patch change is way out of line with the other Jobs that got adjusted upwards - RDM, MCH, DNC, and SAM. SMN's gains are 60-70% higher than RDM, which has seen the second-biggest increase in output. E1S? SMN is up 12%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was only 2%. E2S? SMN is up 12%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 10%. E3S? SMN is up 11%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 7%. E4S? SMN is up 11%; the pre-patch gap with BLM was 9%.

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If you only looking at the last 2 week or 5.1 patch the yes SMN is the top on all data, but BLM didnt get any change in 5.1 so you should take 5.0 into account because the good blm havent even upload their log this patch.

Even in e4s which need loots of moving,
5.0 BLM max percentile is 16k(winning from SMN)
5.1 BLM max percentile is 15,6k(losing from SMN)

And not just max actually all range of show some different if you compare 5.0 BLM and 5.1 SMN, BLM still win in 90+ percentile.

So yeah dont just look at 5.1 ITS A TRAP! the top blm member not even arrived!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I mean sure, but get rid of the Raise and it's mostly fine.

I'll bang this drum as much as I can. It's always been about the raise. The moment it gets taken out of the picture, it doesn't really matter if Black Mage isn't the top damage dealer. The crown's nice, sure, but that crown has changed heads so many times you really shouldn't look inside it. What matters is that they aren't obsolete, and that's what raise does.

It is a binary "Is/Isn't" obsolete switch. It needs to go, or it needs to be heavily adjusted and shared, or it needs something that provides enough of the same boon.

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I don't disagree. It would also give Red mage a niche all its own even if I know several who would despise the dreaded "rez mage" title. I suppose that's better than being trapped beneath Summoner's looming shadow. Regardless, axing Raise would lock Summoner in the Monk/Dragoon territory.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

You must be remembering a different community altogether. Many smns and rdms complained in game, on social media, in discord servers. Many smns and rdms who switched to blm for the tier complained because it was that much better in damage (and feel of execution in the case of smn).

The job may be shining right now, but the brilliance is too much that it's going to blind people due to their own subjective definitions as to what counts as a balanced state for PvE DPS as a whole. Again while comparing the other casters vs BLM is important, that's not what the big picture is about right now. Especially with The Epic of Alexander (Ultimate) looming around the corner.

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Yes the summoner must be slightly nerf, but how many jobs were completely unbalanced on this game, it is an infinite wheel, the perfect balance does not exist with square enix who always repeats the same error,

and read some people the Summoner should be less strong than a Red Mage, or suffer a back return in the level of his 5.08 damage.

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Originally Posted by remiff

the perfect balance does not exist with square enix who always repeats the same error

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So, we should hold them to no expectations? We should just be okay with jobs becoming noncompetitive or quit? What's your actual argument here?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, we should hold them to no expectations? We should just be okay with jobs becoming noncompetitive or quit? What's your actual argument here?

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Yeah I don't get him either. There's always improvements to be made.

It's what improvements and to what extent that rub shoulders.

How is black mage 'non-competitive' in the current patch, pray tell? Objectively speaking, it remains the #1 rdps job in the game which you can check for yourself right now. It's just 'only' 500-1000 dps ahead of summoner now, instead of 1000-1500. On e2, e3, and e4 you have to scroll down to almost the hundredth place, past a ton of blms, mnks, and sams, before you see the first summoner appear. E1 is the only outlier fight where they share the top of the leaderboard with blm, and that's because of padding with bane and phoenix gcds on the quad meteor orbs, and a killtime where the fight ends immediately after that.

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

If it's about being welcome in progression, I've already explained a few pages ago (here) why summoner is not the reason for black mage being shunned from groups. The real reason is outdated stereotypes about raid comps that assume having 2 melees is the 'standard' and that the 3 casters have to fight for 1 raid spot. Blm already does more rdps than any of the melees, a second addle is more than a fine replacement for feint (better even, since raids tend to skew magic heavy). We are no longer shackled to drg for ranged buffs, or nin for emnity control.

Tell me, what reason is there for a group to not replace a melee with a good blm? Thinking this is about rdm/smn vs blm alone is buying into a false dichotomy.

You will never be able to force people to willingly take a blm to prog by nerfing summoner and red mage. In the first place, trying to tear down your 'competition' is a lazy and underhanded approach. The sooner you realize it's the melees you need to justify your raid spot over, the better it will be.

There are a few other reasons I can venture as to why stereotypes about black mages have been slow to change, and they aren't commonly picked for groups. For one, it's hard to find good black mages because of how punishing mistakes are to their output. Due to their gameplay they also encourage (or attract) players that tend to be greedy at the cost of safety - not a good mindset to have in progression. And so what? All these are personal problems that have nothing to do with the other casters. If you insist on playing the all star quarterback dps role for your group, you had better be prepared to fill those boots because it is your responsibility to get good.

Well i guess it was fun while it lasted... At the his point SE will nerf SMN with all the people saying its too OP.

SMN is doing the amount of damage that its supposed to be doing for the amount of work that has to be put into it. So maybe just maybe people should actually for a change ask for the other 2 caster jobs to get adjustments and buffs.

its the overall average of Blm (not the 99s only)..., Blm is fell behind since 5.1 of all the top dps, even Drg..

with heavy movement it gets worse

its nothing like what Sam was in 5.0, ..Blm is still good, but for a zero utility its overall a bit behind

therefore, Smn seems overall fine (though as a class with rez, Smn is kind of strong..., almost too strong)..

still its leans more towords Blm not being fine (overall average dps) for not having utility

I love how you are all a bunch of professional game designers, designing jobs from the comfort of your own home. How about you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

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Not entirely sure about smn replacing a melee, but I mostly agree with you. BLM still is the top rdps job in the game in most scenarios and choosing to play it over smn should only be because of gameplay preference, not because it deals 10%+ more damange than its competitors.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

SMN is doing the amount of damage that its supposed to be doing for the amount of work that has to be put into it.

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There's nothing hard about the current iteration of smn. And jobs shouldn't be balance around their relative perceived difficulty anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Not entirely sure about smn replacing a melee, but I mostly agree with you. BLM still is the top rdps job in the game in most scenarios and choosing to play it over smn should only be because of gameplay preference, not because it deals 10%+ more damange than its competitors.



There's nothing hard about the current iteration of smn. And jobs shouldn't be balance around their relative perceived difficulty anyway.

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It is way more intrincated than spamming Fire IV.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, we should hold them to no expectations? We should just be okay with jobs becoming noncompetitive or quit? What's your actual argument here?

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I did not say that square enix should not adjust a too strong job, I meant that they repeat the same error in the sense that there will always be too strong jobs in the game .

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

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Not when you have 250ms+, they're not.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

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And yet Yoshida has also said this is the justification for BLM to do more than Samurai circa Alphascape. SE has made conflicting statements in interviews and panels historically.

BLM: Primarily GCD based. GCDs have ping correction built-in.

SMN: Much heavier emphasis on OGCDs. OGCDs are subject to a considerable increase in animation lock with higher ping. OGCDs do not have ping correction.

The jobs are not remotely close to equivalent in impact at higher ping. But at least the Egi Assault change went a great way in improving this. I am a high ping player and the difference in feel is night and day.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

And yet Yoshida has also said this is the justification for BLM to do more than Samurai circa Alphascape. SE has made conflicting statements in interviews and panels historically.

BLM: Primarily GCD based. GCDs have ping correction built-in.

SMN: Much heavier emphasis on OGCDs. OGCDs are subject to a considerable increase in animation lock with higher ping. OGCDs do not have ping correction.

The jobs are not remotely close to equivalent in impact at higher ping. But at least the Egi Assault change went a great way in improving this. I am a high ping player and the difference in feel is night and day.

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Same, I'm always between 250ms and 400ms, the new egi assaults are a day-night difference. Yet I saw some rotation videos allowing SMN to beat BLM in DPS terms and HAHAHA, it is impossible for me to do the same the buttons won't react that way no matter how fast I press them. Low ping SMNs are more than twice my casting speed, it feels like a completely different class.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

seconded. i love smn and have always played it regardless of its strength or weakness, but give our RDM brothers and sisters some more love.

BLM also needs utility to balance out its kit. Consider an AOE manaward (10%?) instead of raise to allow them to compete in that regard.

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If you want to give black mage utility then you need to also nerf the damage output, otherwise the class is broken. The reason, as I understand it, why they are allowed to do so much damage is because they lack utility.
You could also argue that messing with this would destroy the class identity.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SMN mechanically is fine. Reverting Ruin IV’s buff and taking a bit from Tri-Disaster is fair. I’d prefer to keep the DoT and pet potency as is.

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Honestly I think if you drop DoTs to 45 potency and lower Ruin 3/4 by 30 to 40 potency it would provide the balance the OP wants. Those are the highest DPS drivers that SMN has.

Let's not jump the gun with what I want now. I dislike when assumptions are made.

I want them to take a hard look at the big picture. They have said they would be continuously making adjustments to the game's balance beyond how it's been done in the past. Time will tell if they stick to that.

If that means some reductions here, some improvements to other jobs there then so be it. Numerically what would achieve that is going to depend on where Square Enix wants to see things at down the line.

using a Smn in new fights or heavy movement fights is vastly easier than Blm, even if the Smn rotation is "more complex"..

once a fight is fully mastered (and not too heavy on the movement), Blm is still probably the better choice..

but Smn is with its rez and utility is a bit too strong (like Mnk were at 5.0) compared to Blm

even Drg are ahead of Blm in the average dps on Titan (Sam being top, Smn 2nd, Mkn 3rd, Drg 4th)

and on Hades, Smn is even top Dps on "average', Blm is somewhere on ca. 6th spot, even behind Mch