Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

I disagree.

A good SAM should be over a good MNK, but a great monk should be over a great SAM.
Same would apply to DRG.
DPS with utility should have the opening to exceed pure DPS classes if the party they are in enables their rDPS to do so.

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It used to be like this. Also you couldn't get into any groups as a SAM. That's why SAM kept getting buffs for all of Stormblood until it wasn't like this anymore.

If they removed the enrage timer it would make your skill in doing mechanics what matters more then raw damage. Let everyone play what they love, let everyone feel wanted doing it.

Enrage timers are there partly to encourage people to do mechanics properly by virtue of making it harder to beat them for every death that occurs.

I don't agree with the tuning being so tight as to practically demand meta comps on the first few weeks, though.

The classes that have raid damage buffs should have more rDPS potential than classes that do not. At the same time, the rDPS potential of all classes, selfish or not, should be balanced to be as close as possible.

Raid damage buffs provide an extra layer of damage potential that should be rewarded when used correctly in a team setting because they can just as easily punish the rDPS contribution of these classes when they are underutilized. Plus, relying on up to 7 other people to maximize the potential of the buff is much more variable than simply executing a solo class to its maximum capabilities.

Ultimately any composition in this landscape would come down to player skill and team synergy. A selfish dps might be more valuable to a team by virtue of removing a layer of optimization to reach the necessary damage output as that player might more easily and consistently reach their maximum damage output. Regardless, keeping the rDPS potentials as close as possible would allow enrages to be set to work for any standard comp, thereby promoting teamwork to find the right fit for each group's skillset.


Of course all of this only works in a world where there aren't any hidden taxes on raising or "being a range."

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

The classes that have raid damage buffs should have more rDPS potential than classes that do not. At the same time, the rDPS potential of all classes, selfish or not, should be balanced to be as close as possible.

Raid damage buffs provide an extra layer of damage potential that should be rewarded when used correctly in a team setting because they can just as easily punish the rDPS contribution of these classes when they are underutilized. Plus, relying on up to 7 other people to maximize the potential of the buff is much more variable than simply executing a solo class to its maximum capabilities.

Ultimately any composition in this landscape would come down to player skill and team synergy. A selfish dps might be more valuable to a team by virtue of removing a layer of optimization to reach the necessary damage output as that player might more easily and consistently reach their maximum damage output. Regardless, keeping the rDPS potentials as close as possible would allow enrages to be set to work for any standard comp, thereby promoting teamwork to find the right fit for each group's skillset.


Of course all of this only works in a world where there aren't any hidden taxes on raising or "being a range."

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Personally i dont understand the "range tax", like why its a thing, buy thats what SE puts in.

But i can understand why raise is taxed (sorry, but so far the heal on my smn.... i laugh everytime i look at how much it heals me for... i got a healy chocobo for a reason) if smn and blm did the same damgr, would have no reason NOT to take smn. But i think it needs to be a more meaningful decision other instead of "welp, pretty sure we got mechanics down... #$%@ off smn"

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Personally i dont understand the "range tax", like why its a thing, buy thats what SE puts in.

But i can understand why raise is taxed (sorry, but so far the heal on my smn.... i laugh everytime i look at how much it heals me for... i got a healy chocobo for a reason) if smn and blm did the same damgr, would have no reason NOT to take smn. But i think it needs to be a more meaningful decision other instead of "welp, pretty sure we got mechanics down... #$%@ off smn"

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The ranged tax uses the same logic of the raise/non-offensive utility tax, if everyone does the same damage but someone is better at doing something else (in physical ranged case doing mechanics) why not take the "better" class? If ranged jobs had like Classic WoW Hunter's dead zone (the class couldn't use ranged skills in melee range) it would be one thing, but right now being ranged is by default better if not for the damage difference.

However while SE has the right idea the numbers are just way off, phys ranged is doing too little comparably (I could understand if MCH was like 300 dps below BLM/SAM, but now it's like over 1k below BLM and SAM is going to be buffed to this level), casters with raise are being way overcharged by this ability and in general utility is being overtaxed (in SB at this time it was exactly the opposite tho, selfish jobs were barely above jobs with utility and thus were a joke among the raiding community).

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

The ranged tax uses the same logic of the raise/non-offensive utility tax, if everyone does the same damage but someone is better at doing something else (in physical ranged case doing mechanics) why not take the "better" class? If ranged jobs had like Classic WoW Hunter's dead zone (the class couldn't use ranged skills in melee range) it would be one thing, but right now being ranged is by default better if not for the damage difference.

However while SE has the right idea the numbers are just way off, phys ranged is doing too little comparably (I could understand if MCH was like 300 dps below BLM/SAM, but now it's like over 1k below BLM and SAM is going to be buffed to this level), casters with raise are being way overcharged by this ability and in general utility is being overtaxed (in SB at this time it was exactly the opposite tho, selfish jobs were barely above jobs with utility and thus were a joke among the raiding community).

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Probably came from when i played wow, i always remember competing with ppl for top dps, and hunters were always a apart of that competition, dead zone or not

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

The ranged tax uses the same logic of the raise/non-offensive utility tax, if everyone does the same damage but someone is better at doing something else (in physical ranged case doing mechanics) why not take the "better" class?

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If that makes a significant difference you can only apply that to DPS against striking posts, it's already accounted for in rDPS since you are already doing those mechanics while determining rDPS. So a melee job might need a bit higher DPS against striking posts to counter the effect of being melee, but IMO there is no good reason why they should have higher rDPS. This goes for every balancing mechanic that is purely DPS related, everything is already accounted for in rDPS.

That is why rDPS is such a nice balancing metric, you don't have to worry about possible uptime and group buffs and such. The only thing you have to consider are heals and raises and such. What makes that difficult is the value you place on a dps job having a raise is almost arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

If that makes a significant difference you can only apply that to DPS against striking posts, it's already accounted for in rDPS since you are already doing those mechanics while determining rDPS. So a melee job might need a bit higher DPS against striking posts to counter the effect of being melee, but IMO there is no good reason why they should have higher rDPS. This goes for every balancing mechanic that is purely DPS related, everything is already accounted for in rDPS.

That is why rDPS is such a nice balancing metric, you don't have to worry about possible uptime and group buffs and such. The only thing you have to consider are heals and raises and such. What makes that difficult is the value you place on a dps job having a raise is almost arbitrary.

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I agree and I always agreed with your logic, in a perfect balance scenario the "meta jobs" would change from fight to fight, because everything would be so close that a fight being annoying for melee or caster, makes physical ranged pull ahead, a fight having more downtime favours bursty classes, while a more straight fight should favor sustained damage and so on it would also mean that you can bring anything for a clear (to be fair it's already like it though it will have varying difficulties from comps to comps) since they are so balanced.

However SE have trouble balancing 3 healers and finally they seemed to get to a very balanced point on 4 tanks (and even so GNB/PLD is still optimal in every fight), they probably introduced that 1% party wide mechanic to try and break dps balance in a way that instead of trying to balance 10 different jobs with the most varied rotations, utilities and uptime, they would try to break it into 4/3/3 jobs to simplify their work and so as long as there is not an absurd difference between roles every party would want 1 of each role + a wildcard, it makes their life easier for sure and can get the job done, but not with BLM/MNK being over 1k rDPS over their peers.

Remove Dragon Sight from Dragoon.
Give Samurai Dragon Sight with the name of "Rising Dragon".

I just hate dragon sight... I think that would be a nerf for SAM in a way.

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

The classes that have raid damage buffs should have more rDPS potential than classes that do not. At the same time, the rDPS potential of all classes, selfish or not, should be balanced to be as close as possible.

Raid damage buffs provide an extra layer of damage potential that should be rewarded when used correctly in a team setting because they can just as easily punish the rDPS contribution of these classes when they are underutilized. Plus, relying on up to 7 other people to maximize the potential of the buff is much more variable than simply executing a solo class to its maximum capabilities.

Ultimately any composition in this landscape would come down to player skill and team synergy. A selfish dps might be more valuable to a team by virtue of removing a layer of optimization to reach the necessary damage output as that player might more easily and consistently reach their maximum damage output. Regardless, keeping the rDPS potentials as close as possible would allow enrages to be set to work for any standard comp, thereby promoting teamwork to find the right fit for each group's skillset.


Of course all of this only works in a world where there aren't any hidden taxes on raising or "being a range."

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The concept of a ranged tax is something that in raid actually makes sense. When you consider up time on the boss, melee will have to disengage to do mechanics, and if those mechanics require movement, then casters might also lose up time. Ranged physical, however, never should have to lose up time on a boss. So in theory, if a fight did have 100% up time available, then your ranged DPS should be doing less damage to make up for the fights where casters and melee DPS have to stop attacking, with the goal being that in the end, the two would even out.

That said, I do think that your other point is accurate that Square taxes having a raise too heavily to the point that red mages do pretty pitiful DPS for the benefit of having a cure and a raise. I think that there does need to be some way of balancing out that utility since this is a raid support skill that sometimes will go unused, yet the job will do less damage regardless of if it's used or not, completely unlike how a ninja might do less damage because it has trick attack. The ninja still will get used every fight and raise everyone's damage while raise won't be used once people know a fight.

I like the idea I've seen tossed around that summoner and red mage get a kind of buff from their rotation that is stripped off when they cast a raise, or that casting raise puts a debuff on them for a set period of time. Something that balances out their raise ability, but also doesn't punish them for having it in situations where it's not used.

I'm honestly kind of appalled at how much higher MNK's DPS is then NIN's after actually trying the class out using a set of mildly overmelded crafted gear.

I'm getting 12-12.5K consistently, while NIN is generally floating around 10-10.5K even though I have multiple 460/470 pieces.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm honestly kind of appalled at how much higher MNK's DPS is then NIN's after actually trying the class out using a set of mildly overmelded crafted gear.

I'm getting 12-12.5K consistently, while NIN is generally floating around 10-10.5K even though I have multiple 460/470 pieces.

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you thought we were complaining for nothing. You can look at the 80 ninja player base and how small it is if you really questioned the authenticity of our complaints.

Did you master the 27 button opener that last 30 seconds just to be out shown by a drg on his second jump, and a smn picking her nose yet? That is always a good time.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I like the idea I've seen tossed around that summoner and red mage get a kind of buff from their rotation that is stripped off when they cast a raise, or that casting raise puts a debuff on them for a set period of time. Something that balances out their raise ability, but also doesn't punish them for having it in situations where it's not used.

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Casting raise is a big enough hit for RDM without any hit at all actually. Raise being considered for its utility for a dps is overated. Casting raise causes RDM a cast, and if they casting off dual cast in which they waste two spells. which is cast time = dps downtime. The hit for the other dps being raised is faced with weakness. Raising on smn is alittle different since doing it when phoenix or Dreadwyrm is active would only cost them 1 hit but it is still dps downtime. A hit for a raise is enough of a trade off since the raised is going to cost dmg anyway. Players shouldn't be taxed for party assist actions that don't buff dmg and should be rewarded for giving up the dmg they do for raising. The penalty should only fall on the person who couldn't mechanics correctly which it does with weakness status.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The concept of a ranged tax is something that in raid actually makes sense. When you consider up time on the boss, melee will have to disengage to do mechanics, and if those mechanics require movement, then casters might also lose up time. Ranged physical, however, never should have to lose up time on a boss. So in theory, if a fight did have 100% up time available, then your ranged DPS should be doing less damage to make up for the fights where casters and melee DPS have to stop attacking, with the goal being that in the end, the two would even out.

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The issue with this is they don't even out. Current fights are so easy, and melees and casters have so many contingency tools, that all fights are practically 100% uptime endeavours for good players. And of course, you balance the game around good players. I don't think ranged would be happy to know they're being taxed because there are mediocre melees and casters out there only getting 50% uptime.

Melees and casters should frankly stop hiding behind their uptime as an excuse for their tuning. BLM is right now the most mobile of all caster jobs, and the only one that can handle movement phases of arbitrary length on demand without losing any dps at all. True north now has 2 charges, MNK in particular has had a lot of its positional work trivialized - the one other thing melees like to point to as a source of 'difficulty'.

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

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I'll just recommend trying to do more content with a melee that actually needs to do positionnal, sides and rear. Especially ones that have a dash that when not used properly equals to a dps loss. (Sam as an example, I don't know about dragoon since I've never bothered to actually up one) or even ninja who doesn't have an oGCD "gap closer" except sprint.

You'll actually see that it does require some management. Not just to execute the mechanics properly but for keeping max uptime while still doing positionnals. Because yeah, even if they weren't as important as monk's, not doing them still equals to a dps loss. And two times ten seconds of true north sadly isn't enough to compensate for that.

I can assure you that the amount of positionnal management and uptime is way, way different and way easier for a bard rather than a dragoon, a samurai or even most casters.
Still I do agree that Black Mages have way betters tool to deal with mechanics and mobility than most melee dps... Which is pretty ironic. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The issue with this is they don't even out. Current fights are so easy, and melees and casters have so many contingency tools, that all fights are practically 100% uptime endeavours for good players. And of course, you balance the game around good players. I don't think ranged would be happy to know they're being taxed because there are mediocre melees and casters out there only getting 50% uptime.

Melees and casters should frankly stop hiding behind their uptime as an excuse for their tuning. BLM is right now the most mobile of all caster jobs, and the only one that can handle movement phases of arbitrary length on demand without losing any dps at all. True north now has 2 charges, MNK in particular has had a lot of its positional work trivialized - the one other thing melees like to point to as a source of 'difficulty'.

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

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TBH if ranged tax wasn't there we'd go back to 2.0 when bard was so broken party comps were BRD BRD BLM BLM because MELEE ARE A BURDEN or meleeonlyforLB3 brd brd blm. Yeah we have alot more up time in this raid tier and strats are designed to consider melee up time but i for sure don't wanna go back to an era of shunning melees. Also when we are forced off bosses it does hurt us for sure. can't speak much for blms tho not my field of expertise.

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Originally Posted by Uliq

you thought we were complaining for nothing. You can look at the 80 ninja player base and how small it is if you really questioned the authenticity of our complaints.

Did you master the 27 button opener that last 30 seconds just to be out shown by a drg on his second jump, and a smn picking her nose yet? That is always a good time.

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I took a look at that NIN opener and I was like well I guess I should stop complaining about SMN lol that ish looks ridiculous....while I do appreciate a NIN cause it helps SMNs crappy dps I completely understand the complaints.

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

TBH if ranged tax wasn't there we'd go back to 2.0 when bard was so broken party comps were BRD BRD BLM BLM because MELEE ARE A BURDEN or meleeonlyforLB3 brd brd blm. Yeah we have alot more up time in this raid tier and strats are designed to consider melee up time but i for sure don't wanna go back to an era of shunning melees. Also when we are forced off bosses it does hurt us for sure. can't speak much for blms tho not my field of expertise.

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Black mage had everything it needed in Stormblood.

In Shadowbringers it got Xenoglossy and 30s Sharpcast on top of it.

However we run into the same problems - Mistimed use of our movement tools (to optimize damage) leads to greater punishment than just holding onto said tools.

In other words, a Black Mage has everything they need until they don't, and if they don't, it sucks eggs.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I took a look at that NIN opener and I was like well I guess I should stop complaining about SMN lol that ish looks ridiculous....while I do appreciate a NIN cause it helps SMNs crappy dps I completely understand the complaints.

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Try 39 button opener.
27 is the number of off-global cooldown buttons from hide -> suiton at pull (not counting huton or pots.) from engaging boss, until TA effect wears off.
22-23 seconds from suiton hit to TA is off.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The issue with this is they don't even out. Current fights are so easy, and melees and casters have so many contingency tools, that all fights are practically 100% uptime endeavours for good players. And of course, you balance the game around good players. I don't think ranged would be happy to know they're being taxed because there are mediocre melees and casters out there only getting 50% uptime.

Melees and casters should frankly stop hiding behind their uptime as an excuse for their tuning. BLM is right now the most mobile of all caster jobs, and the only one that can handle movement phases of arbitrary length on demand without losing any dps at all. True north now has 2 charges, MNK in particular has had a lot of its positional work trivialized - the one other thing melees like to point to as a source of 'difficulty'.

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

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Tell me.... what resource do I have as a monk to do damage when I can't be on the boss? You seem to be confusing True North with being out of attack range. I can maintain Greased Lightning, but I have zero ranged skills, and other melee jobs have very weak melee attacks that you use because they're better than doing nothing at all (unless they would break your combo, then you literally do no attacks because the penalty for breaking combo is bigger than the DPS you gain from tossing a dagger)

True North isn't there to trivialize positionals, but it's there explicitly for times when hitting positionals is impossible. For example, you have to stack in front of Titan in E4 for his massive landslide attack, so you use True North so you aren't punished for doing a mechanic. You don't just pop it because "meh I don't wanna do my job right now" True North doesn't let me hit Voidwalker when the bleed pools aren't in melee range, while casters and ranged physical jobs can still attack, melee jobs can not.

Basically I can say after leveling up Dancer and now working on Machinist, ranged physical jobs are simply easier to do mechanics, preposition for them, and keep up time than both casting jobs and melee jobs. You're getting taxed because the job is flat out easier to play, and play effectively. We already know that ease of play is something that the devs of the game want to reward. Highly complex jobs have a high DPS ceiling, simple jobs have a lower ceiling. This in addition to the amount of party utility jobs have, which historically ranged physical jobs had much more of this than casting and melee jobs.

Your first mistake was leaving the boss in the first place as a monk.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Your first mistake was leaving the boss in the first place as a monk.

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Because standing in the point blank AOE is always the right move or dropping your gravity puddle in E1s on the boss too.... you forget that these are things that exist? There are mechanics that require melee to disengage from the boss, this can't be avoided for melee players, and when you disengage, you're not doing damage if you're a melee job. If you're a ranged job, though... hey look at that, you're still doing damage!

You can aggressively tackle mechanics like that with judicious use of your max melee range. Even good timing will suffice in a pinch, you can execute a gcd, move out of range for the briefest moment as the mechanic resolves, and return to the boss before your next gcd rolls around. The game is not balanced around imperfect or conservative play on your part, nor mediocre tanks pulling the boss away from you and things like that. Ranged players would be sorry to hear their tax is being pegged against such subpar standards of play.

Also I hope you're not implying mnk or blm are difficult and complex jobs, truly the hubris of melees knows no bounds. You know, I could see myself being all for balancing around 'difficulty' and skill ceilings, I would nothing but stand to gain in that kind of framework. But I only wanna hear that from the poor ninjas or summoners or machinists, in terms of skewed effort to reward ratios, they have by far the most claim to that gripe.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Because standing in the point blank AOE is always the right move or dropping your gravity puddle in E1s on the boss too.... you forget that these are things that exist? There are mechanics that require melee to disengage from the boss, this can't be avoided for melee players, and when you disengage, you're not doing damage if you're a melee job. If you're a ranged job, though... hey look at that, you're still doing damage!

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Unless you have 3 melee DPS, you can drop a puddle on each side of the boss in E1S and lose no uptime. Both tanks stack in front, everyone else stack behind (ranged drop their puddles farther away), puddles drop, MT slides near one of the puddles so the melee can still do positionals, easy. Everyone's in range for Flare and no melee ever gets off the boss. There's even a kind of goofy strat for the laser orbs that means no melee uptime lost. Even without that strat you lose half a GCD -- one GCD *max* -- or so running out and back in. Even for Deltas the ranged/healers should be going out further than melee, so that's a half-GCD each. So in total... what, 2 lost GCDs throughout the fight? It's really not as bad as it seems.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

True North isn't there to trivialize positionals, but it's there explicitly for times when hitting positionals is impossible. For example, you have to stack in front of Titan in E4 for his massive landslide attack, so you use True North so you aren't punished for doing a mechanic. You don't just pop it because "meh I don't wanna do my job right now" True North doesn't let me hit Voidwalker when the bleed pools aren't in melee range, while casters and ranged physical jobs can still attack, melee jobs can not.

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I haven't done Titan Savage yet, so I can't talk to that but... you do know you can be on the sides/behind titan for Massive Landslide right? You just need to be in the square, so you have to stand inside his hitbox. As for Voidwalker normal, yeah the puddles can be inconvenient -- you know what, let the ranged/healers/OT get the faraway puddles. If roulette decided to give you 3 or 4 melee, well that sucks, you got bad luck and didn't get a normal comp.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

You can aggressively tackle mechanics like that with judicious use of your max melee range. Even good timing will suffice in a pinch, you can execute a gcd, move out of range for the briefest moment as the mechanic resolves, and return to the boss before your next gcd rolls around. The game is not balanced around imperfect or conservative play on your part, nor mediocre tanks pulling the boss away from you and things like that. Ranged players would be sorry to hear their tax is being pegged against such subpar standards of play.

Also I hope you're not implying mnk or blm are difficult and complex jobs, truly the hubris of melees knows no bounds. You know, I could see myself being all for balancing around 'difficulty' and skill ceilings, I would nothing but stand to gain in that kind of framework. But I only wanna hear that from the poor ninjas or summoners or machinists, in terms of skewed effort to reward ratios, they have by far the most claim to that gripe.

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I can only speak to the jobs I've leveled... but it's not only complexity of job play (as I've stated before) that determines damage output potential. Party utility is also a MAJOR determining factor in how much damage a job can do as well as the ease of which a job can execute raid mechanics. That said, having leveled up all the melee jobs except for dragoon at this point, and having leveled every casting DPS, having leveled Dancer and in the process of leveling machinist, I will say that melee jobs are more involved to play and play well than ranged physical jobs.

There are indeed varying levels of complexity within each job, and the damage definitely doesn't match up between complexity and damage potential, I have never denied this, and I've also fully admitted that certain jobs are absolutely over turned. Monk should not be doing more damage than samurai, and dragoon is doing WAY too much damage, especially compared to how much utility it has in comparison to ninja.

But I also will say that in general, melee jobs should be doing more damage, when personal plus raid DPS damage is considered, than ranged physical jobs.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

You can aggressively tackle mechanics like that with judicious use of your max melee range. Even good timing will suffice in a pinch, you can execute a gcd, move out of range for the briefest moment as the mechanic resolves, and return to the boss before your next gcd rolls around. The game is not balanced around imperfect or conservative play on your part, nor mediocre tanks pulling the boss away from you and things like that. Ranged players would be sorry to hear their tax is being pegged against such subpar standards of play.

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I would be really curious to see you play a melee dps on high level content tbh, you make it sound really easy. I do understand that SMN is one of the most difficult job to play atm, but you seem really certain that the others class are that much easier. :rolleyes:

"Execute a GCD, move away while the boss finish casting, get back under the boss to hit the next GCD just in time".

Having to maintain positionals, wasting ressources on a gap closer, jobs with high SkS, high ping, having to use an oGCD or even having to cast a Iaijutsu right now just to not delay your rotation (and fall out of raid buff window)...

But sure, all of this is easy. We all know that when a monk or a dragoon dies on a mechanic it's just because he wanted to, or was playing with one hand. Not because he had to keep uptime, or he tried to do like you said, moving out at the last second and failed because his GCD was off-synched with the boss cast or simply he didn't had sprint off cooldown.

Doing mechanics and avoiding AoE is "easy" too when you're just looking at it from far away, but still peoples keep making mistakes on those. Maybe this game's playerbase is just dumb after all, you're right. :rolleyes:

More seriously, every job has its fair share of difficulty, be it in terms of fight knowledge or simply mastering the class. However, saying that doing mechanics as a monk is exactly the same as doing those on a Dancer or MCH while being as easy isn't really... Close to reality, I would say.

But maybe you could then explain why playing a Bard is no different in fight as playing a SAM ? And how you would have no difficulty at all by playing a RedMage or a MCH strictly at melee range, because it is no different after all ? ^^

Well, you're more than welcome to look up this character if you think I'm all talk, I'll be happy to do the same for you. What you think is an improbable feat is simply the expected baseline for a certain level of performance.

This is precisely why the game should be balanced around informed players. Not that I think you need to be some endgame raider type to hold a valid opinion, but your engagement with the game inevitably informs your perspective, and there are many blind spots in the general playerbase as a result. For instance, people tend to overrate the difficulty of keeping uptime, because it's easy for anyone to notice when you're failing at that, it's intuitive and everyone can relate to it. On the other hand, when a demonstration of skill relates to things like precise gcd optimizations or alignments, that tends to be invisible to people because they don't even know those things exist.

If you think playing a job like bard or machinist is a free pass to hang out far away and not be bothered by mechanics, you're terribly mistaken. In the first place, most mechanics are in fact easier to resolve when closer to the boss. Any radial type attack demonstrates this clearly, the cleaver in e2s being the one most people will have seen. If you need to hand off a prey marker in e1s, you need to be near the boss. In e3s, you being ranged actually saddles you with more responsibility, like doing the tether while melees are pampered as much as possible to ensure they hardly need to move. And even if you could ignore mechanics by standing far out, you wouldn't want to anyway due to limitations on aoe heal ranges, you'd either find yourself dead or with a very upset healer.

All in getting from this is that there are layers to how jobs interact with mechanics. I’ll be honest though, melee uptime is a lot more forgiving this tier as there aren’t many forced off the boss mechanics and a lot of Titan and all of Leviathan has no positional. Casters have it rough in Titan phase 1 but that’s likely true of melee and it’s smoothing sailing in most other areas. Ranged don’t really have much issues inherently so while melee and caster aren’t struggling as much to do damage, Ranged never really have to struggle and can literally hit from anywhere. There does need to be a dps tax in place but I’d be lying if I could give you a solid number

Pulled an arbitrary good Dragoon log from E2 Savage. Pull lasted 476 seconds, and he was auto-attacking for 470 seconds out of that. That's not even something controllable like making sure you handle your dodging between GCDs. That's just being in melee range when a timer you have no control over strikes 2.8.

So he was able to simply sit in melee range for all but 6 seconds of a fight, and not just any fight but one that is notorious for hellish dodging mechanics, considered a big PF trap because lesser players get hit by stuff left and right.

"Melees are constantly losing uptime to mechanics" is in fact a fallacy. If you're good, you lose very little, if any at all. And even if it were true, that'd be borne out in the fight statistics anyway - nobody is looking at dummy parses, they're looking at real fight data that's going to have all of these "but mobility" benefits baked in.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

The ranged tax uses the same logic of the raise/non-offensive utility tax, if everyone does the same damage but someone is better at doing something else (in physical ranged case doing mechanics) why not take the "better" class? If ranged jobs had like Classic WoW Hunter's dead zone (the class couldn't use ranged skills in melee range) it would be one thing, but right now being ranged is by default better if not for the damage difference.

However while SE has the right idea the numbers are just way off, phys ranged is doing too little comparably (I could understand if MCH was like 300 dps below BLM/SAM, but now it's like over 1k below BLM and SAM is going to be buffed to this level), casters with raise are being way overcharged by this ability and in general utility is being overtaxed (in SB at this time it was exactly the opposite tho, selfish jobs were barely above jobs with utility and thus were a joke among the raiding community).

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This is the right take. You do want to apply some penalties to factors such as mobility and defensive utilities that would "break the tie" if the most important factor (rDPS) were fully equal. But it needn't be a penalty of 10% or more, that's excessive beyond any conceivable purpose.

Gaps of just 2-4% would be plenty enough to serve the intended purpose, without going so far as to make players feel pressured to play jobs or roles they don't want to for the sake of not dragging their party down. Even if as always every job can clear, now more than at any point since 2.x there's a lot of feelsbad to playing over half the dps jobs, knowing how far they are behind the top dogs.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

Gaps of just 2-4% would be plenty enough to serve the intended purpose, without going so far as to make players feel pressured to play jobs or roles they don't want to for the sake of not dragging their party down. Even if as always every job can clear, now more than at any point since 2.x there's a lot of feelsbad to playing over half the dps jobs, knowing how far they are behind the top dogs.

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Gaps of 2-4% invalidate the jobs who aren't bringing the goodies.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Gaps of 2-4% invalidate the jobs who aren't bringing the goodies.

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On what basis? The most damage is the most damage. If BLM is meta, it can't possibly be invalidated. The only question is how close can a job get before a defensive skill changes the math - and raises, actually (which I assume are your "goodies" here) are worth absolutely nothing in this context. At least Minne tallies up 300 healer potency or so in a lot of fights.

So RDM and SMN only need to be just far enough behind that people don't just say "well why not bring the one that can raise?". That question should be easily answerable by "less damage", and it doesn't take much of a gap for that to be true.

We've seen jobs get dumpster fire stigmas over gaps as small as 1.5% in the past. People care about this stuff, more than they should, but the fact that they do is all that matters. 2-4% less damage is more than enough separation to drive player behavior. That has been very well proven out by history.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

On what basis?

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on the "200 DPS isn't worth dropping this awesome tool" basis.

We saw it significantly during Stormblood, we saw it some during Heavensward, it was the entire reason behind the Cross Class Nerfs in ARR (Remember when Bard literally had access to everything in their 20% states? pepperidge farm remembers)

BLM needs about a 15% Nerf in DPS. They have a very powerfull utility in their arsenal that can potentially give them huge crowd controll. I'm talking about AoE sleep. This needs to be adressed. The posibility of being able to sleep a horde of mobs needs to be taken into account when balancing the jobs.

It is out right broken and will make them mandatory in situations where large scale fights arise. they have a monopoly on this, and will for that reason be taken over any other DPS. The raid Utility it brings is way too high to justify the current DPS of the class.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

lsnip.

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Gotta ask, are you genuinely serious?

If they tax DPS for heal or raise etc, why not tax for AoE sleep? Because this is the idiocracy of how it currently is heading.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

If they tax DPS for heal or raise etc, why not tax for AoE sleep? Because this is the idiocracy of how it currently is heading.

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I too hate how allies are "Immune" to Raise.

But there are times where Sleep is possible right? So it needs to be taxed. Obviously Im putting this WAY over the edge. But its to really show the hypocracy. I dont think for a second that people who advocate against buffing Utility classes to be on pair with personal dps classes are anything else than people who are playing said classes for the reason of dealing the most damage and boast about their high DPS to their friends and random people on the internet. I dont think they advocate balance, nor advocate equality. Its a power play in terms of keeping any other job that they feel doesnt deserve to compete in the high DPS spot. They are afraid of having more people having the potential at scoring higher than them on -shall not be named- page for the bragging rights.

Blm is overpowered but 15% is tooo much lmao,
the difference between SMN/RDM and BLM should be 600 to 1000,
thats sound more reasonable than the current 1600 unreasonable damage difference...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Blm is overpowered but 15% is tooo much lmao,
the difference between SMN/RDM and BLM should be 600 to 1000,
thats sound more reasonable than the current 1600 unreasonable damage difference...

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I know. I was just pushing it insanely high for the shock value, making a point on how utility is rediculously taxed in this game.

Like.. Why cant they work around having all the jobs be equal, instead of shifting META to META. Best way to delete the whole META deal is to make all the DPS jobs essentially bring something to the group, and scale their total possible outcome of DPS to be the same throughout the spectre.
Give Physical ranged DPS a window where they have to be immobile to justify their range advantage.
have SMN and RDM get Raise, but in the form of a OCG with a 3min cooldown that gives 5sec silence/pacification. etc.

I mean, the posibilities to make every job deal the same DPS at 100% perfection can be done with putting in options that can punish the DPS, or mobility and so on. Bring a bit more complexity in and it gets easier, stop with the simplification of jobs.