Sanity check - crafting job skip potions?

Plot twist: OP is someone from Square Enix who wants to know how the majority feels about crafting potions. :P

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

That would absolutely break the game’s economy. Absolutely not, and I personally hope it never does happen.

In short, nope,

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To be fair, the economy has been broken for ages now xD.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And if someone wants it only for making money, just do some of the most needed low level crafting items and you will make quite a good amount of gil.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

OK. Skip pot to 50 then. I'm game.

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Clearly you misunderstood my post and the person above you I quoted. Crafting doesn't start becoming profitable and relevant at 50. You can start making decent money at around lvl 20. The same goes for gathering.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

At least on those levels you dont need the best equiqment to do stuff. Everything on the high level (which includes the newest housing items, glamour and pets) need very good equipment and gatherers on high level too if you dont want to buy everything. So it needs a big investment...will someone really do that if they cant even be bothered to level them up the normal way?

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Likely no. I know a few people who bought their crafting materials because they were too lazy to gather, and they also used an online guide with macros to do the crafting for them. They hadn't a clue how to craft on their own. By the time they reached max lvl and hit the point in which they would need to start doing specific things for scrips they lost whatever small interest they had. They complained about how hitting max lvl isn't enough to craft everything and gave up on it.

I saw similar with a player who bought boosts for everything. Msq and all their classes. They were upset to find out that when you're lvl 60 people expect you to be able to play as if you're lvl 60, and not a lvl 20 sprout. They were annoyed that content at lvl 50+ is significantly more challenging than Toto-rak. They were angry that buying the boost wasn't enough to get them through the game. So they quit.

People who buy shortcuts because they cannot be bothered to work towards a goal typically end up quitting at the point in which they cannot buy their way anymore. Not always, but it's usually how it goes.

I wouldn’t mind a skip to 50 for crafter/gatherers.
30-50(60 for gatherers) is the worst slog in levelling those jobs, thanks to moogles/namazu making it super easy after that point.
And the nature of crafting jobs, I don’t think would make these that game-breaking at all. You need to level up all crafting jobs, so after you’ve done a few, the idea of doing even more becomes less and less appealing. So the job boosts would come in very handy for even regular players to finish up their last couple crafters, and those who just want to boost everything, would have to buy ALL of the boosts for all the crafting jobs, which would cost a fortune.

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

Plot twist: OP is someone from Square Enix who wants to know how the majority feels about crafting potions. :P

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Is that like, a promotion? Nah, I ain't from S.E. - but what fun it has been watching this thread unfold. I dunno if S.E. learned anything, but I sure did. Carry on then!

Shooter

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Clearly you misunderstood my post and the person above you I quoted. Crafting doesn't start becoming profitable and relevant at 50. You can start making decent money at around lvl 20. The same goes for gathering.

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Profitable doesn't necessarily mean fun or exciting. But the point I was trying to make there was the majority of the "current" and engaging content for crafting is later rather than sooner. Things that shine/glow and are useful. Putting in a shortcut but not an escalator straight to it isn't a crime.. in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Likely no. I know a few people who bought their crafting materials because they were too lazy to gather, and they also used an online guide with macros to do the crafting for them. They hadn't a clue how to craft on their own. By the time they reached max lvl and hit the point in which they would need to start doing specific things for scrips they lost whatever small interest they had. They complained about how hitting max lvl isn't enough to craft everything and gave up on it.

I saw similar with a player who bought boosts for everything. Msq and all their classes. They were upset to find out that when you're lvl 60 people expect you to be able to play as if you're lvl 60, and not a lvl 20 sprout. They were annoyed that content at lvl 50+ is significantly more challenging than Toto-rak. They were angry that buying the boost wasn't enough to get them through the game. So they quit.

People who buy shortcuts because they cannot be bothered to work towards a goal typically end up quitting at the point in which they cannot buy their way anymore. Not always, but it's usually how it goes.

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All examples showing people not "destroying the market" after a pot was used and also showing that it is just a shortcut, there's still challenge to be had even post reaching 70

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Profitable doesn't necessarily mean fun or exciting.

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Chances are if you don't find crafting enjoyable at low lvl, you won't find it enjoyable at higher lvl. Only mastercrafts that require top tier gear actually warrant getting very indepth into crafting rotations. Nearly everything else is craftable with a simple normal rotation.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

But the point I was trying to make there was the majority of the "current" and engaging content for crafting is later rather than sooner.

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That's all content though. Nothing starts off at or close to its peak.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Things that shine/glow and are useful. Putting in a shortcut but not an escalator straight to it isn't a crime.. in my opinion.

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It's not a crime but it would be a stupid decision because of the inevitable huge and detrimental effect it would have on the market. Never mind other effects such as making players feel like the optimal way to progress in the game is to pay to not put in effort.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Chances are if you don't find crafting enjoyable at low lvl, you won't find it enjoyable at higher lvl. Only mastercrafts that require top tier gear actually warrant getting very indepth into crafting rotations. Nearly everything else is craftable with a simple normal rotation.

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I don't like making the stuff at low level because most of it, in my personal opinion of course, looks boring. it's exciting to make things at high levels because they look neat and do neat things. The actual process of crafting has been dissected to the point of tedium. There are optimal rotations and gear you can just google. I like what I can make, not how I can make it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

That's all content though. Nothing starts off at or close to its peak.

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Everything in the game is "content". If you mean that the beginning is supposed to be boring I can't really say one way or another since I didn't make it, but I would like to have a shortcut NOT to engage in that part.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's not a crime but it would be a stupid decision because of the inevitable huge and detrimental effect it would have on the market. Never mind other effects such as making players feel like the optimal way to progress in the game is to pay to not put in effort.

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To a degree there is no way we can argue the effect, because we can't see the future..
But people have been saying the cross server visits were going to destroy individual economies as well.. and that hasn't happened either.

The Optimal way to do anything for fun is the one that's the most entertaining. If you find mindless grinding rewarding and fun then more power to you, but I doubt that allowing a shortcut in crafting will do anymore than the current culture of mobile gaming already has.

Very hard pass on this.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The Optimal way to do anything for fun is the one that's the most entertaining. If you find mindless grinding rewarding and fun then more power to you, but I doubt that allowing a shortcut in crafting will do anymore than the current culture of mobile gaming already has.

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The current culture of mobile gaming is horrendous. The games are full of pay to win aspects and they encourage gambling with real money.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The current culture of mobile gaming is horrendous. The games are full of pay to win aspects and they encourage gambling with real money.

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your opinion is just as valid as mine. But I personally believe all the current mobile gaming culture has shown is people allowed to do what they wish will value time over money. You may feel differently about paying to skip mindless grinds if you ever step back and ask yourself how much is an hour of your life really worth?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

your opinion is just as valid as mine. But I personally believe all the current mobile gaming culture has shown is people allowed to do what they wish will value time over money. You may feel differently about paying to skip mindless grinds if you ever step back and ask yourself how much is an hour of your life really worth?

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How I feel is I'd rather pay to play a game than pay to not play it. I find value in both the journey and the destination. Those who only find value in destinations often find their joy in gaming is short-lived. Especially if the case is that eliminating the journey also means not doing the content that teaches you how to play well.

I also feel that allowing players to gamble with real money is predatory when it's in games that aren't rated for only adults.

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But I personally believe all the current mobile gaming culture has shown is people allowed to do what they wish will value time over money.

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Yeah, thats not it though. the current era of mobile gaming is the asian MMO scene from the late 00's and early 10's.

Theres as many if not more grinds to do, but you're also expected to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get the things to do the grinds.

Two words:

No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

How I feel is I'd rather pay to play a game than pay to not play it. I find value in both the journey and the destination. Those who only find value in destinations often find their joy in gaming is short-lived. Especially if the case is that eliminating the journey also means not doing the content that teaches you how to play well.

I also feel that allowing players to gamble with real money is predatory when it's in games that aren't rated for only adults.

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Paying to get to the part you enjoy isn't necessarily paying to get to the end and who's to really say who is playing the "right" way. If you're having fun then it's the right way as long as you aren't hindering someone elses fun generally. Crafting doesn't really have a skill either. You aren't learning timing, or group dynamics, or mechanics, just rotations that have NO time limit.

It's a little like saying people who pay for fastpasses in amusement parks are wrong. Just because they didn't stand in line like everyone else doesn't make the ride any less fun for them and the people who DID stand in line aren't necessarily "earning" the ride, just doing what's necessary to get there.

And once again nobody said it had to be instant cap with gear, you still have to do that last bit of grind and gearing up for true top tier crafts.

and as for children gambling with real money I have some pretty strong opinions and ideas on that one but it's very irrelevant to this topic so I'll just leave it.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Yeah, thats not it though. the current era of mobile gaming is the asian MMO scene from the late 00's and early 10's.

Theres as many if not more grinds to do, but you're also expected to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get the things to do the grinds.

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I guess I don't play those games. I play 3 "gatcha" games and have only spent money (about 30 bucks) on one , once. However in all 3 I'm competitively kitted out and current in story and power levels.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind crafting boost potions. Going from 1 to 70 can be daunting, which is only going to be worse as the years go on. Not everyone wants to craft for monetary reasons. Self sufficiency, for one, but gear repair and overmelding is tied to crafting as well.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Paying to get to the part you enjoy isn't necessarily paying to get to the end and who's to really say who is playing the "right" way. If you're having fun then it's the right way as long as you aren't hindering someone elses fun generally.

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Unlike a lot of mobile games FFXIV wasn't designed with jump potions or similar boosts in mind. So it can be argued that buying them is playing the wrong way in this game.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Crafting doesn't really have a skill either. You aren't learning timing, or group dynamics, or mechanics, just rotations that have NO time limit.

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At top tier crafting you really need to know what you're doing to succeed. Or go to a website that tells you what to do. That such sites even exist proves that people don't know what to do often enough to warrant an outside source that guides your entire rotation ability by ability.

Also while low lvl crafting doesn't require skill, it does require patience. Something which seems to be in short supply among a lot of gamers these days.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's a little like saying people who pay for fastpasses in amusement parks are wrong. Just because they didn't stand in line like everyone else doesn't make the ride any less fun for them and the people who DID stand in line aren't necessarily "earning" the ride, just doing what's necessary to get there.

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No it's not. Standing in line doing absolutely nothing isn't the same as crafting items to gain xp. In the first you're doing nothing, in the second you're doing something. In order for it to be the same you would have to somehow gain crafting xp by just standing around for hours doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

And once again nobody said it had to be instant cap with gear, you still have to do that last bit of grind and gearing up for true top tier crafts.

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But that does nothing for the game economy issue. There is a massive economy for crafting and gathering for lvl 20+. The jump potions would ruin it because suddenly a gigantic chunk of what's for sale in the market would become meaningless. Furthermore this would punish players who cannot afford to buy jump potions on top of a sub, because they would be unable to make any decent money until they're high lvl. Crafter jump potions would be pay to win that would ruin the game's economy.

And again I emphasise that crafting is side solo content. It doesn't stop you from progressing in the main part of the game. At least for msq and combat class lvls you can make the argument of "I want to play with my friends in the content they're doing right now" because those two aspects of the game do require potentially significant progress to engage in a specific group activity. Such an argument can't be made for crafting because 99% of it is a solo side activity. You rarely get into a situation like "sorry you can't do this activity with us because your crafting is too low" but you often can for combat classes and msq progression.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Unlike a lot of mobile games FFXIV wasn't designed with jump potions or similar boosts in mind. So it can be argued that buying them is playing the wrong way in this game.

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Yet here we have jump potions for the actual Main Line in the game. Are all the people using them playing the game wrong?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

At top tier crafting you really need to know what you're doing to succeed. Or go to a website that tells you what to do. That such sites even exist proves that people don't know what to do often enough to warrant an outside source that guides your entire rotation ability by ability.

Also while low lvl crafting doesn't require skill, it does require patience. Something which seems to be in short supply among a lot of gamers these days.

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That really has nothing to do with whether or not a skip pot is something we should have. It's about avoiding a lengthy and mindless grind.
Patience is one thing, wasting your own time is another. People are impatient because everything today is instant: Emails, texts, deliveries, streamable media, etc etc. Patience for actual life is an important skill to cultivate, patience for entertainment I'm already paying for the privilege to access? less so.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No it's not. Standing in line doing absolutely nothing isn't the same as crafting items to gain xp. In the first you're doing nothing, in the second you're doing something. In order for it to be the same you would have to somehow gain crafting xp by just standing around for hours doing nothing.

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My crafting from 1-50 was a matter of gathering mats by purchase or by gathering, then using those mats to make PILES of junk that was only useful to make the next step in the crafting grind. The vast majority of that "leveling" was literally sitting in one place while the game played itself and I quick-crafted. I usually watched videos while this happened. I was not enriched or challenged.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But that does nothing for the game economy issue. There is a massive economy for crafting and gathering for lvl 20+. The jump potions would ruin it because suddenly a gigantic chunk of what's for sale in the market would become meaningless. Furthermore this would punish players who cannot afford to buy jump potions on top of a sub, because they would be unable to make any decent money until they're high lvl. Crafter jump potions would be pay to win that would ruin the game's economy.

And again I emphasise that crafting is side solo content. It doesn't stop you from progressing in the main part of the game. At least for msq and combat class lvls you can make the argument of "I want to play with my friends in the content they're doing right now" because those two aspects of the game do require potentially significant progress to engage in a specific group activity. Such an argument can't be made for crafting because 99% of it is a solo side activity. You rarely get into a situation like "sorry you can't do this activity with us because your crafting is too low" but you often can for combat classes and msq progression.

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Meaningless how? I don't understand why letting people craft later items devalues those items. Jump pots wouldn't make lower level crafts useless either because people WILL continue to level the "normal" way. Everyone doesn't buy skip pots. The people not skipping would still make money from the others leveling and the people at higher tiers who needed lower level mats as stepping stones. The economy would.. CHANGE maybe but I'm not seeing it be ruined.

Level and skip pots weren't exclusively made to cater to people who wanted to play with their friends. They are at least partially there for people to play current content rather than old content. Between that and the fact that just because it's solo activity doesn't mean it should have some sort of exclusivity to it, your reasoning has some very arbitrary rules to it.

Doesn’t matter how long this debate goes on, it’s 99% not going to happen. The 1% being if Live Letter Part 2 trolls us and announces crafter jump potions, which, is still a possibility. But being realistic here, not gonna happen, at least not on NA/EU servers.

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

Doesn’t matter how long this debate goes on, it’s 99% not going to happen. The 1% being if Live Letter Part 2 trolls us and announces crafter jump potions, which, is still a possibility. But being realistic here, not gonna happen, at least not on NA/EU servers.

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*shrug*

Realistically most ideas on this board won't be realized either. That doesn't mean we can't explore them.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

*shrug*

Realistically most ideas on this board won't be realized either. That doesn't mean we can't explore them.

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True. I would love retainers that craft HQ gear for me, but it’s never gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But that does nothing for the game economy issue. There is a massive economy for crafting and gathering for lvl 20+. The jump potions would ruin it because suddenly a gigantic chunk of what's for sale in the market would become meaningless. Furthermore this would punish players who cannot afford to buy jump potions on top of a sub, because they would be unable to make any decent money until they're high lvl. Crafter jump potions would be pay to win that would ruin the game's economy.

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Please, expand on this. What is this massive market you're so worried about crashing? We dont have much data, but I doubt that mid-low level gatherers / crafters produce enough (or any) to sustain such a market. And if you mean leve sets, and low levels buying them? I'd wager a gil or two that only a minority of whales buy those.

When the cross world came in, there were also worries that the market would "crash". Turns out it didn't. If anything, the cheap servers are still cheap, expensive ones still expensive... you just dont have to stay and take the price-gouging.

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

True. I would love retainers that craft HQ gear for me, but it’s never gonna happen.

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Hey, my retainers just brought me some HQ ironworks gear, thats something :p

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

True. I would love retainers that craft HQ gear for me, but it’s never gonna happen.

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Things to make that a reasonable proposition:
They need to have the relevant crafting job and leveling with Ventures to max level
The crafting needs to be a % chance to succeed/fail/HQ. Depending on mats given and gear worn by the retainer. It would have to be a significantly LOW chance to make HQ's still valuable. .. but I can see that being viable.

We can only hope that people see that things that seem unreasonable or undesirable at first glance... can be implemented reasonably and conveniently.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Please, expand on this. What is this massive market you're so worried about crashing? We dont have much data, but I doubt that mid-low level gatherers / crafters produce enough (or any) to sustain such a market. And if you mean leve sets, and low levels buying them? I'd wager a gil or two that only a minority of whales buy those.

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Crafters often sell things other crafters can use. Aside from cul, no crafter is near completely self sufficient. With the other crafters you always end up needing things a different crafter class can make. Now try to imagine what would happen if a large amount of players decided to buy crafter skip potions. The market for these items will reduce, which means those who don't buy skips will have a harder time buying the things they need but cannot craft, and will also have a harder time making money. It also would mean lower lvl gatherers would make less money.

On top of that the market for mob drops (leather, diremite webs, aldgoat horns, etc) would also reduce. This is a way for those who do not engage in crafting or gathering to be able to sell to the crafting market. So it's not just crafters and gatherers who would be affected. It's potentially anyone. I personally have made quite a lot of money selling pre-50 mob drops. Especially if they're hq.

If the skip becomes popular enough, and it might because crafting is well known to be a very long road that can take some players months to do because lvling just one isn't optimal due to cross-class skills (and lets be real here, loads would be tempted to be able to cut out literally months of progression in an instant), then the market for lower lvl crafting materials would crash.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

When the cross world came in, there were also worries that the market would "crash". Turns out it didn't. If anything, the cheap servers are still cheap, expensive ones still expensive... you just dont have to stay and take the price-gouging.

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Cross world doesn't remove the relevance of anything for sale. It simply gave you more places to buy the same things from. What was worrying was that quieter servers could find it harder to sell because there tends to be more choice in listings on larger servers, so a lot of players would look in quiet servers last. Players currently don't have the option to sell on other servers, even though they can buy from other servers. I hope in the future market boards will become data centre based instead of server based. It would be better for the economy and player convenience.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

snip!

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I would argue, that those low level markets are barely existant or profitable as is, so not much is lost. A single high level crafter could take 10 minutes to craft one of these cross required items and fill up the MB with dozens of (if not more) HQ versions, and its not like people normally need that many of those materials anyways (unless doing leves).

Not sure about overall tendencies or trends... but who DOES that on low levels? Creating cross crafting materials for sale? The time investment is great, the exp return is inferior to other options, and the gil return is minimal. Gil and EXP combined might be superior to leves and beast tribes, but the time investment still might not be worth it.

What amount of people would buy such a potion? I doubt it would sell like candy, these potions are quite expensive, and we have a lot of jobs. If its not a VERY substantial amount, it wouldn't suddenly wipe out the market.

As for the cross world thing, It was more of an example: we lack the data to make accurate guesses on market directions, and thus we probably shouldn't. Anecdotal evidence can only go so far. (it was also a slight dig at people that were complaining and arguing against it because it compromised their cornered price-gouging monopolies, but thats beside the point)