As an FFXI player, thank you for Limited Jobs and BLU SE

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Originally Posted by JBee

This has brought out so many levels of negativity and vitriol in the community, I wish they hadn't introduced BLU in any form at all. I've read through posts for months, and one current theme I've seen over and over again... "I don't care you don't get what you want, as long as I get what I want." It's pretty gross. People who are all, "Stop complaining it's not a full job, maybe we want NEW THINGS - but as long as I get what I'm looking forward to (DANCER) that's all that matters." How self absorbed and asinine can you get.

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I agree with everything you said, but this is the part that hurts the most. I'm trying to be as collaborative as I can these days, but it still bothers me. I'm better understanding and empathizing with the viewpoint of those players who felt like their specific version of FFXIV would be satisfied with something wildly new and particular and niche like this, but frequently it seems to be at the cost of the dashed hopes of many other players.
Edit: Just had another instance of this in another topic. I really should back away from these forums for a while...the hostility and entitlement is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

maybe because XI and XIV belong to two vastly different generations of MMO that simply don't mix? So many are just sick and tired of the nostalgia crowd wanting to shovelhorn in outdated mechanics and elements, especially after the mess that is Eureka

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...52/332/33d.jpg

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

I can only base myself in the words of the developers themselves in documentaries/interviews like the one presented above (I mean, they're the ones who fixed it), where they admit that they thought they had this whole MMO thing figured out because of FFXI, got cocky and failed miserably because a lot of game design philosofies that worked before didn't work anymore.

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Oh, I understand that you specifically don't mean to pin the entire blame on XIV 1.0's failure on them trying to "copy" XI, but I also know that many people do- as if XIV 1.0 was designed to be XI 2.0; it wasn't. If anything, I was trying to set the record straight on that misconception.

Now as for the fact that the devs do reference XI in their interviews:

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

FFXI was the whole drive behind SE wanting to do a second online game and rushing it, thinking they had it figured out. That doesn't mean the FFXI itself is responsible and I never said it was.

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This is my take-away from the interviews as well. It's less of "we tried to emulate XI and it failed XIV 1.0," but more "we made assumptions of what we could get away with because of our success with XI and the excuse of the Final Fantasy franchise name."

Unfortunately, you can see based on even just some replies in this thread that the default reaction of a part of XIV's playerbase is to ridicule FFXI at every opportunity and somehow find fault in it every time the devs in charge of XIV make a bad decision. Like, for example, Eureka:

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

maybe because XI and XIV belong to two vastly different generations of MMO that simply don't mix? So many are just sick and tired of the nostalgia crowd wanting to shovelhorn in outdated mechanics and elements, especially after the mess that is Eureka

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First of all, I have absolutely no argument against the first sentence of that quote, and actually wholly agree with it. My issue is the part I italicized and is a reoccurring misconception I keep seeing being brought up about how terribly-informed the devs have been about designing Eureka. Does it borrow some elements from XI? Yes. The worst elements that most rational fans of XI never wanted to see brought back from the dead. In this situation the "nostalgia crowd" must be the devs themselves because they hand-picked the aspects of XI most vets would cringe at amidst the mass of other, more reasonable requests like XI's glamour system or endgame content such as Nyzule Isle. It's as if- many years from now, should SE make another FF online game, they hand-pick this BLU debacle and glamour system circa 2016 as the things to emulate from XIV. Suddenly, the players of that new online FF game turn around and claim that putting those unpalatable elements of XIV into the new game is the fault of the nostalgic XIV crowd...


And just because this is a BLU thread too, after talking about 1.0, I've come to realize something. This limited BLU in many ways is an allegory of FFXIV 1.0. Think about it:
-Both were released seemingly incomplete with the promise of "we can just update it later."
-Both had a lot of outcry from the pre-launch about the direction.
-Both have arguably minimal (if any) "endgame," with the first point being the rationalization.
-Both have "stopgates" of sorts implemented to attempt to dissuade players from getting to said "endgame" to realize there isn't much of anything there (primal/trial spell RNG vs. exp fatigue system).
- Both imposed seemingly pointless restrictions on the basis that they thought they were doing something "different."

Yeah, it probably isn't fair to judge FFXI based on how the devs pick bad elements from it to try them on FFXIV (talking about whatever they put in 1.0 and stuff they put in Eureka). I can agree with that, because as I said before I believe FFXI is doing something right to have so many loyal fans, and I quite enjoy FFXI's story.

However, when you say:

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Does it borrow some elements from XI? Yes. The worst elements that most rational fans of XI never wanted to see brought back from the dead. In this situation the "nostalgia crowd" must be the devs themselves because they hand-picked the aspects of XI most vets would cringe at amidst the mass of other, more reasonable requests like XI's glamour system or endgame content such as Nyzule Isle.

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Isn't this still a somewhat good reason for players to be worried about the idea of making "FFXIV more like FFXI"? Since, according to this, the devs have shown they're not that good at choosing the good elements of FFXI to apply in FFXIV (like the "you lose EXP when you die" thing in Eureka, which I'm not a particular fan of).

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

Isn't this still a somewhat good reason for players to be worried about the idea of making "FFXIV more like FFXI"? Since, according to this, the devs have shown they're not that good at choosing the good elements of FFXI to apply in FFXIV (like the "you lose EXP when you die" thing in Eureka, which I'm not a particular fan of).

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Oh, for sure. Now I'm not even confident the devs even have a clue what the XI fans liked about XI. And personally, I do not want XIV made "more like XI" (nor is that feasible), but simply that there are successful aspects and content of XI that could be replicated here.

Was this moved from the general forum, or am I going mad?

Okay, looking at the FFXIV hate. To the arguing that it is objectively bad, a word with a subjective meaning ‘bad’ can’t be objective, what you mean is you and people who agree with you hated it, that’s fine, I hate WOW and have tried it many times, so I can appreciate we will all have our hates, even when plenty of people disagree. Hell even what is considered good game design is subjective.

If it’s success was purely on it being an FF title, FFXIV would not have been such a massive flop to begin with, even then 1.0 had people who genuinely like it. I still play XI from time to time because I enjoy it, I don’t believe it was perfect but there was a lot that I loved about it. The same with XIV.

As for how much it grossed in the first year, it was still not the flop XIV was. XI grew and XIV rebuilt from the ground up to be the two final fantasy titles to make the most money. So they must have done something right. How well something does in the first year is not necessarily a measure of its success, but perhaps is the kind of thing to make shareholders and investors feel easy.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Was this moved from the general forum, or am I going mad?

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I've been using just the "New Posts" option, so I never noticed where this thread was. But, I mean, there are so many Blue Mage threads that some confusion is to be expected at some point lol.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Okay, looking at the FFXIV hate. To the arguing that it is objectively bad, a word with a subjective meaning ‘bad’ can’t be objective, what you mean is you and people who agree with you hated it, that’s fine, I hate WOW and have tried it many times, so I can appreciate we will all have our hates, even when plenty of people disagree. Hell even what is considered good game design is subjective.

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Game design itself is rarely subjective. Much of game design can be objectively looked at and errors pointed out, even in an early design stage.

For example, the moment Blue mage and its capacity was announced, it didn't take playing the job to realize what was going to happen to it the week it released. You'd level, you get your skills, and you'd beat the Masked Carnival and then not have anything to do with it afterwards.

We just didn't know the timescale. I honestly thought leveling would take longer, and Blue Mage would be dead to me within a month until the next content patch.

Turns out I hit that point on day 3, and I sincerely hope you all love sitting in a corner while someone else does your primal fights.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

maybe because XI and XIV belong to two vastly different generations of MMO that simply don't mix? So many are just sick and tired of the nostalgia crowd wanting to shovelhorn in outdated mechanics and elements, especially after the mess that is Eureka

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Eureka has nothing to do with outdated mechanics. It was horrible game design that was it's downfall. Sure, they took inspiration from XI - the leveling portion of it, anyway, and turned it into end game content with no depth. They could have expanded and done so much with Eureka, but, like most content that we get, they decided to do the bare minimum and expand on it later.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

The thing is, Final Fantasy XI was an objectively terrible game. The EXP Party system that players developed in response to the twin mechanics of "You lose EXP when you die"

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You mean like some other current and popular games do in this day and age that are considered hard? Just because you don't like being punished for your mistakes, doesn't mean that death shouldn't have a consequence.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

and "You have to be in a party to get anything accomplished"

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Crafting, soloing, unlocking jobs, doing some quests, missions, making gil didn't require parties at release. Heck with the right job, decent gear, and skill some jobs could solo relevant end game bosses and sold gear like this. As the game went on more activities opened up that went into solo play. Heck, pet jobs thrived for solo play. It's why people keep begging for something like beast master. They even did a better job at making the solo job being able to solo than FF14.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

It was fun in the same way a second job or an emotionally-needy long-distance girlfriend might be considered as such. You had to take the same approach to playing FFXI as you would to building a model ship, or writing a novel, just without any tangible results on the other end of it.

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Sounds like you were over all bad at the game or never played it and are just speaking from second hand experience of someone that was bad at the game. The only thing that made FF11 like a second job was farming HNM's and finding a party if you didn't have any friends on the game, due to the lack of a auto group feature that made balanced parties. But anyone that knew a basic party composition or knew their way around the jobs usually could hit the max level of a job within a few days.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

There is a big distinction between having fun doing an activity and putting up with doing an activity with the expectation that a reward would appear at the end of it. The Blue Mage skill grind, and Final Fantasy XI as a whole, are decidedly in the second category.

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You mean like how people put up doing roulettes to get their gear? Because I can tell you right now most people don't like doing the same thr-- oh I mean two dungeons over and over again just to stay relevant. I'm pretty sure most would just like to have the gear after the first or second run and be done with it. But that's not how most MMORPG's work because they don't want the severs to be empty.

And to the OP, just no. As a FF11 player, this Blue mage is actually horrible. Lacking customization. Unique abilities and debuffs. The ability to properly fit into any role. The ability to actually do current content with your group and learn spells as you go. They need to get rid of the limited job idea and just go ahead and set it as a DPS with some type of utility because they are too afraid to actually do anything that is creative and make anything that requires the player to really think and the way it's set up, it basically already fits in line with the rest of the jobs. Maybe a bit lack luster DPS though.

As for those saying that this is new content. Just no. Restart the game, go grind in your fates where you gathered up multiple monsters and just aoe them down and then go and grind your mounts. As that's what they basically turned BLU into, and it is sickening to the core. The only "new" things are the animations, the learning system, and the Masked Carnival, which the last one really should have been the Battle Arena from FF7 put into the Golden Saucer for glam glam weapons that any job could have done.

FFXI experience here for content...
Dungeon with changing objectives each floor
Side event that requires a escort mission, not being detected by enemies, a hot and cold game, capture the flag style game, rescue prisoners...ect.
Dungeon that the player starts off with no equipment and as they progress through they have to pick which gear pieces they want, and then have to choose if they want higher rewards or more gear.
Dungeon that is a open zone, where a set of players take out particual monsters to gain particular stat boosts or abilities to help them along. Have a time constraint of some sort. Divde the monsters up by either giving better stats to progress, or higher equipment rewards.

That would be new...at least for this game. But we'll probably get the same thre-- I mean two dungeons, a 8 man raid and a 24 man raid. With something else that is tottally random thrown in at some point.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Game design itself is rarely subjective. Much of game design can be objectively looked at and errors pointed out, even in an early design stage.

For example, the moment Blue mage and its capacity was announced, it didn't take playing the job to realize what was going to happen to it the week it released. You'd level, you get your skills, and you'd beat the Masked Carnival and then not have anything to do with it afterwards.

We just didn't know the timescale. I honestly thought leveling would take longer, and Blue Mage would be dead to me within a month until the next content patch.

Turns out I hit that point on day 3, and I sincerely hope you all love sitting in a corner while someone else does your primal fights.

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Whether it is ‘good’ design is still subjective, whilst we can measure it and compare it, the parameters set to be considered ‘good’ are still subjective because they are based on opinion, professional or otherwise. Even if people overwhelmingly agree, it isn’t objective. That is not to say it devalues a person’s opinion, especially if it is a professional opinion, but in the example of FFXI and also Blue Mage there are people who disagree that it is bad design. It’s not because they are in denial of the facts, because opinions aren’t facts.

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Originally Posted by JBee

I'm done posting about this. Negative or Positive, done is done.

BuT aS lOnG As I gEt MiNe I dOnT cArE.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I agree with everything you said, but this is the part that hurts the most. I'm trying to be as collaborative as I can these days, but it still bothers me. I'm better understanding and empathizing with the viewpoint of those players who felt like their specific version of FFXIV would be satisfied with something wildly new and particular and niche like this, but frequently it seems to be at the cost of the dashed hopes of many other players.
Edit: Just had another instance of this in another topic. I really should back away from these forums for a while...the hostility and entitlement is ridiculous.

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It's really telling at this point that the people who are actually in the majority on this forum are making themselves out to be the victim when they are being the most hostile of the bunch. I mean look at the very first response in this thread, look at all the upvotes these hostile responses are getting. I mean look at the upvotes you two are getting, you certainly aren't alone or a minority to any degree here.

If anything, the main "hostility" as you put it have been from people hating on those who enjoy Blue Mage and like it's implementation and what it means for the future of this game.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

8 self-buffs, 5 Passives and 176(!) spells.
And about 80%+ were TP based and quite gimmiky.

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Ok, if it was so good in FXI, then how can people like this dogs breakfast of a half class here?

Well they have had their experiment which despite starting to hate blu i still think parts of it is good. It's somewhat different and feels like your back at 2.0, seeing old areas filled again is a good feeling.
With that said however i would not like classic jobs to be turned into limited jobs only.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

And just because this is a BLU thread too, after talking about 1.0, I've come to realize something. This limited BLU in many ways is an allegory of FFXIV 1.0. Think about it:
-Both were released seemingly incomplete with the promise of "we can just update it later."
-Both had a lot of outcry from the pre-launch about the direction.
-Both have arguably minimal (if any) "endgame," with the first point being the rationalization.
-Both have "stopgates" of sorts implemented to attempt to dissuade players from getting to said "endgame" to realize there isn't much of anything there (primal/trial spell RNG vs. exp fatigue system).
- Both imposed seemingly pointless restrictions on the basis that they thought they were doing something "different."

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Agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

If anything, the main "hostility" as you put it have been from people hating on those who enjoy Blue Mage and like it's implementation and what it means for the future of this game.

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Not hating on the people that enjoy the implenmentation, there are quite a few that will take about anything. Personally though, I like my jobs to be completed and usable in current content. Not something to do as a side activity that has no use outside of what should have been a golden saucer activity and that be it's only function. But good for those that are willing to bite that bullet.

As for the future of this game. 2 dungeons, trial, Savage raid or 24 man dungeons , and some type of random side content that they claim is a test, normally fails, and is good for about a month and we won't see again for about 6 months, if ever. Currently Blue mage is that side content.

If it's a new expansion hours upon hours of fetch-em quests, about 5 leveling dungeons, 3-4 trials, some random air points to go and find so that you can actually fly in the zone.

Oh and glam glam for the mog station so that SE can get more money on top of people's sub. It's actually a really good business model.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Ok, if it was so good in FXI, then how can people like this dogs breakfast of a half class here?

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Simple, they don't. If you take a stroll around the forums you'll see that there are a lot of complaint threads, both here and at other sites.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

It's really telling at this point that the people who are actually in the majority on this forum are making themselves out to be the victim when they are being the most hostile of the bunch. I mean look at the very first response in this thread, look at all the upvotes these hostile responses are getting. I mean look at the upvotes you two are getting, you certainly aren't alone or a minority to any degree here.

If anything, the main "hostility" as you put it have been from people hating on those who enjoy Blue Mage and like it's implementation and what it means for the future of this game.

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The only reason majority/minority plays a part in this is that the overwhelming majority of forum-goers dislike the implementation, which is in disagreement with your personal opinion. There are, quite obviously as your beloved "Likes" indicate, more people who dislike BLU than like BLU. That's important information for SE to consider. But you're almost trying to backdoor in a political & psychological philosophy that, in my simple estimation, has no bearing in this discussion. There's no "majority" silencing the "minority". There's no psuedo-psychological empowering of toxic individuals or opinions. People share their opinions and thoughts, some more bombastically than others, but at the end of the day everyone is free to share their opinion, be criticized for their comments, or be rewarded for their contributions to a discussion. There's no conspiracy.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The only reason majority/minority plays a part in this is that the overwhelming majority of forum-goers dislike the implementation, which is in disagreement with your personal opinion. There are, quite obviously as your beloved "Likes" indicate, more people who dislike BLU than like BLU. That's important information for SE to consider. But you're almost trying to backdoor in a political & psychological philosophy that, in my simple estimation, has no bearing in this discussion. There's no "majority" silencing the "minority". There's no psuedo-psychological empowering of toxic individuals or opinions. People share their opinions and thoughts, some more bombastically than others, but at the end of the day everyone is free to share their opinion, be criticized for their comments, or be rewarded for their contributions to a discussion. There's no conspiracy.

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You have a knack for consistently not understanding what I've been saying at several points. Like... did you even read what they stated? They made themselves out to be a victim when it's not even true. You can look at the very first response in this thread and many others, you know, the ones getting upvoted being as rude as possible for merely suggesting I enjoy what SE did here. They aren't the victim.

Secondly, I don't give a rats butt if there is a consensus opinion, the criticism I've had is the usage of the like system, not that there is a majority and minority. The system hurts discussion when it's already decided by likes.

I don't think there is a conspiracy? Like I've never implied otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Whether it is ‘good’ design is still subjective, whilst we can measure it and compare it, the parameters set to be considered ‘good’ are still subjective because they are based on opinion, professional or otherwise. Even if people overwhelmingly agree, it isn’t objective. That is not to say it devalues a person’s opinion, especially if it is a professional opinion, but in the example of FFXI and also Blue Mage there are people who disagree that it is bad design. It’s not because they are in denial of the facts, because opinions aren’t facts.

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No, it really isn't. Good design compliments the system it uses to reach the end goal. Let's make a checklist.

Blue Mage is a job for solo players.
-Half the abilities are in instances the blue mage will either have great difficulty soloing or simply impossible to solo.
Fail. Bad design.

Blue Mages band together to hunt their abilities.
-It's more effective and efficient to just band with non-Blue mages to hunt your abilities. This would have taken 30 seconds to solve via "Full, Synced Blue Mage parties have 100% learn rate"
Fail. Bad design.

Blue Mage cannot participate in standard content the standard way because it breaks content.
-The only ability this is true for is white wind. Every other game breaking ability faces a plethora of things immune to it. Every other damage spell is bland.
Inconsistent. Bad design.

Blue Mage is focused on killing World monsters to progress.
-Except Fates. Guess they didn't want us to level up in a single day. Oh wait. For the first time in 5 years I was almost excited to hunt down a fate group, only to realize they gave !@#% xp.
Inconsistent. Bad design.

Blue Mage is about load out selection.
-Except there are like 12 mandatory actions you will always take, 3 of 5 that you pick based on the masked Carnival, and then damage spells that more or less condense into "What elemental weakness do I need?" or "Guess I'll just keep using Glower."
Fail. Bad design.

Masked Carnival is end game for the Blue mage!
-maybe 3 encounters need a gimmick move to be cleared, otherwise you can beat them with little to no prep and a little trial and error. 'End-game' lasted two hours.
Inconclusive.

Masked Carnival is about self competition!
-But I can't see my own time / score on the selection screen for my best runs.
Fail. Bad Design.

Blue mages have a pimp cane.
-Yes, that's pretty dope.
Good Art Design.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You have a knack for consistently not understanding what I've been saying at several points. Like... did you even read what they stated? They made themselves out to be a victim when it's not even true. You can look at the very first response in this thread and many others, you know, the ones getting upvoted being as rude as possible for merely suggesting I enjoy what SE did here. They aren't the victim.

Secondly, I don't give a rats butt if there is a consensus opinion, the criticism I've had is the usage of the like system, not that there is a majority and minority. The system hurts discussion when it's already decided by likes.

I don't think there is a conspiracy? Like I've never implied otherwise.

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I don't see anybody claiming to be a victim, that's just your interpretation for arguments sake as far as I can tell. Even if we are to go so far as to say there are victims in this situation, the victims certainly wouldn't be the ones who got what they wanted. That's never the case, is it?

But that's all beside the point. BLU is objectively broken. From EXP exploits to afk BLUs getting carried by lv70 friends to lol130 potency. It's pretty obvious to most of us that SE missed the mark, and it was obvious well before BLU ever launched. The # of likes, or lack there of, did not decide the community's tone on BLU - SE did that themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No, it really isn't. Good design compliments the system it uses to reach the end goal. Let's make a checklist.

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Then I think there's a misunderstanding over what's meant by 'subjective'. But I won't split hairs on the difference further, but the reason I brought it up is because it was claimed that FFXI was "objectively bad" to dismiss any positive comments on the game, when that's not how the term "objective" works. By no means should "subjective" devalue anybody's opinion either, because there could be a lot of weight behind it and some opinions have more value than others.

But on the points you make, I expect not everybody will agree on whether they are bad, as I have seen a divide in opinions among people. For example, I like the idea that FATEs didn't get the boost, because I grew tired of FATEs a long time ago and tried to put myself through them through each relic release and hated it and was worried FATE grinding would be the way I'd need to level up again. It was also why Eureka disappointed me.

That said you do raise points I agree on and I think there are things that could be built on for SE to improve, so I'm not among those who're in the mindset this is all a disaster, but I certainly agree there needs to be changes for more people to be satisfied and for me to be more satisfied with it too. I am hoping this was meant as a means to get people's feedback on the job as was the impression I got pre-4.5, in which case, they've got oodles of it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

But that's all beside the point. BLU is objectively broken. From EXP exploits to afk BLUs getting carried by lv70 friends to lol130 potency. It's pretty obvious to most of us that SE missed the mark, and it was obvious well before BLU ever launched. The # of likes, or lack there of, did not decide the community's tone on BLU - SE did that themselves.

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Umm explain, unless you mean BLU in a party with other Blue mages afk, and in that instance getting to level 50 was really just a side thing since it's fairly obvious the real grind was really the primal spells, for whatever reason?

# of likes isn't a solid indicator. What percentage of the actual userbase really uses this forum for proper feedback, not to mention the many that were banned?

I get quite a bit of the complaints but I just wanted to counter the above because it's pretty much hyperbole, and would rather more well reasoned arguments prevail though I don't know how many devs will really want to read 142 posts of generally recycled arguments.

If they made another level 70 dungeon this patch instead of blue mage, that dungeon would have more shelf life than blue mage, as it would be relevant as long as you needed expert/ 70 roulette.

The issue with blue mage isn't that it's not fun. People are free to enjoy whatever they'd like.

The issue is a big majority of players not okay with how blue mage was implemented, and are scared further jobs will get the same treatment even though this game is fully capable of making them work if they chose to, and they're upset that even though the community was begging them to stop terrible rng grinds For atma, or relic steps, square enix then goes and give us a job which is the definition of what we've asked to stop doing.

The other side of the argument are people saying "if you don't like it, don't play it" which is a redundant argument, as this game has literally failed before because of its disconnect between what we as customers enjoy, and what they're telling us to enjoy.

And lastly, if you like ff11 blue mage, go play ff11 blue mage. It's a lot of fun and works for the system it existed in, but it does not work in 14

This is just my opinion and I truly understand why some may dislike BLU but for me personally as content I must say I have been enjoying myself greatly. I know I am working harder and not smarter when it comes to leveling, and not using optimal skills but for me that is part of the fun. BLU is a pure mess around and have fun piece of content that my friends and I have been having a blast. That is not to say I wish for them to ignore the complaints of others and I do hope with time they answer the wishes of others and provide them with fully fleshed out job. I just personally hope they do not gut the current implementation.

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Originally Posted by Awha

This is just my opinion and I truly understand why some may dislike BLU but for me personally as content I must say I have been enjoying myself greatly. I know I am working harder and not smarter when it comes to leveling, and not using optimal skills but for me that is part of the fun. BLU is a pure mess around and have fun piece of content that my friends and I have been having a blast. That is not to say I wish for them to ignore the complaints of others and I do hope with time they answer the wishes of others and provide them with fully fleshed out job. I just personally hope they do not gut the current implementation.

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That's one of the nicest, positive things I've seen about this current debate. Thank you for sharing your thoughts sir, it's a breath of fresh air. It would make me happy if more people could find it in themselves to be open like this.

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Originally Posted by Awha

This is just my opinion and I truly understand why some may dislike BLU but for me personally as content I must say I have been enjoying myself greatly. I know I am working harder and not smarter when it comes to leveling, and not using optimal skills but for me that is part of the fun. BLU is a pure mess around and have fun piece of content that my friends and I have been having a blast. That is not to say I wish for them to ignore the complaints of others and I do hope with time they answer the wishes of others and provide them with fully fleshed out job. I just personally hope they do not gut the current implementation.

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This is the nail on the coffin with how I feel. I mean, look at how much fun we had in this Syrcus Tower!!
https://youtu.be/qZ8MiG_npv4

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Snippity snip

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Holy poop mate,you're getting overly defensive and are dragging irrelevant groups of people (regardless or being a minority or majority) into something because you refuse to have the slightest bits of empathy. How is that not toxic, entitled, selfish or all combined? Why is this even becoming you vs us vs devs?

People complaining about BLU being limited isn't about raiding AT ALL, it is about seeing something with very good potential for fun, the very same thing you want, being blocked into irrelevance.

NOTHING says you can't have your little fun of learning spells from monsters and and that crappy carnival and STILL have the job function as a normal one. We Both can have our fun. You in your "casual" thing and me in my "not casual".... "thing".

BLU is broken, and it's the bad kind of broken. You don't want one in your group.

BLU average potency is crap. Yes some spells can do 420 potency but the require a GCD of 90 or no damage before them. Add to that the lack or the most important stat, weapon damage, and it takes years to kill things.

Suicide spells are bad. No matter what they do. Solo or group content. They are fun to use though. I would see it padding nicely if used at the end of an encounter.

The tank "stance" is horrid. It's a casters in casting gear. 40% damage reduction and you still take more than twice what a tank would... without their tank stance. And the cost is 70 flipping percent DPS reduction on already abysmally low potency spells. Heck, we tanks refuse to enter our tank stance AT ALL and it barely hits us for 25% throughput.

White Wind is cool and can be too strong on a DPS. But the MP cost is steep. Also you can stick a CD on it and it's no stronger than Divine Veil or Mantra.

There are many ways both sides of the players could benefit. All the BLU "defenders" sound to me is: "I finally have something I like and you don't, it's mine and you can't have it." When in reality all we're saying: "why half a cookie when we could have it whole?".

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Originally Posted by Luciano_Bozzelli

This is the nail on the coffin with how I feel. I mean, look at how much fun we had in this Syrcus Tower!!
https://youtu.be/qZ8MiG_npv4

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Back in ARR we did a class only Syrcus Tower (as in no job crystals). We did Only 24 WAR and we did 1 DPS alliance, 1 healer alliance and 1 tank alliance. I did 8 WAR Ravana kills. Xenosys Vex did 8 WAR raids for too many fights to count. Heck,an "all arcanist" O1S kill was done (5 Summoners and 3 Scholars where titan pets tanked). All of those were "most fun we've had"..... For the first time we did it, then it's just "been there done that". Wouldn't make any of the jobs(classes in case of no job crystal) the most fun job. So I don't see where you're trying to go other than "this was REALLY fun."... I don't expect you to have a "can't wait for my 23 BLU buddies to do this again" for the rest of the patch.

As I said before Blue Mage if you're going to have as a limited job should have been Game Genie for 2.0 content - be able to break it and cheese it in ways you couldn't before before.

You can already cheese content with unsynced groups. Blue Mage should have been the solo class that could do it at its level, not unsynced later down the road. If anything, Blue Mage sorely reminds me of CC spells in our arsenal in regular jobs that are shelved because the devs decided to make end game resistant to about everything.

I don't mind the suicide spells BUT, it shouldn't be a mechanic that causes us to be punished for it, ie not learning a spell due to death (where maybe later spells would counteract it).

I really wished there was a PVP mode for Blue Mages just for hilarity.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Umm explain, unless you mean BLU in a party with other Blue mages afk, and in that instance getting to level 50 was really just a side thing since it's fairly obvious the real grind was really the primal spells, for whatever reason?

# of likes isn't a solid indicator. What percentage of the actual userbase really uses this forum for proper feedback, not to mention the many that were banned?

I get quite a bit of the complaints but I just wanted to counter the above because it's pretty much hyperbole, and would rather more well reasoned arguments prevail though I don't know how many devs will really want to read 142 posts of generally recycled arguments.

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Not sure what you are trying to "counter". The # of likes comment is related to OP's impression that forum discussion and tone are guided by people's psychological desire to seek attention and get Likes, which eventually devolves into toxic behavior and sets up a sort of negative feedback loop. Which I don't doubt has some credence "in general", but it's certainly not the elephant it's being made out to be as plenty of toxicity gets called out around here.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not sure what you are trying to "counter". The # of likes comment is related to OP's impression that forum discussion and tone are guided by people's psychological desire to seek attention and get Likes, which eventually devolves into toxic behavior and sets up a sort of negative feedback loop. Which I don't doubt has some credence "in general", but it's certainly not the elephant it's being made out to be as plenty of toxicity gets called out around here.

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"People agreeing with you and not me means you're creating a toxic atmosphere."

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Originally Posted by JBee

if you like ff11 blue mage, go play ff11

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{No thanks.}

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not sure what you are trying to "counter". The # of likes comment is related to OP's impression that forum discussion and tone are guided by people's psychological desire to seek attention and get Likes, which eventually devolves into toxic behavior and sets up a sort of negative feedback loop. Which I don't doubt has some credence "in general", but it's certainly not the elephant it's being made out to be as plenty of toxicity gets called out around here.

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I suppose it's another ride on your hyperbole train then?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I suppose it's another ride on your hyperbole train then?

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I think you need to check the definition of hyperbole, or go back and read the thread. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I think you need to check the definition of hyperbole, or go back and read the thread. :shrug:

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I did. I stand by my statement. Can we get back to discussing Blue Mage please?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I did. I stand by my statement.

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Oh, I see now. I think, at least, since you didn't exactly specify what you found to be a hyperbolic statement. You must be referring to the "EXP exploits, afk BLUs getting carried by lv70s, and lol130 potency". I find all 3 claims quite true and factual, since I was there for 100+ runs/3-4 hours of Titan, Ifrit, Levi, Ramuh, and Garuda carrying BLUs as community service.

I stand by my statements as well. You can call it hyperbolic since you don't agree, doesn't really change the facts.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Blue is broken.

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I was just stating I had fun on blue, and pointing out the fact that we ran through that 24 man dungeon like diarrhea in an old folks home. People have soloed coil. So I'm just saying.... couldn't solo coil on no dragoon... meaning blue is good if used right is all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Luciano_Bozzelli

People have soloed coil. So I'm just saying.... couldn't solo coil on no dragoon... meaning blue is good if used right is all I'm saying.

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Nice to hear about this from someone who actually played Blue at a higher level than most.

Blue makes me happy.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

The thing is, Final Fantasy XI was an objectively terrible game. The EXP Party system that players developed in response to the twin mechanics of "You lose EXP when you die" and "You have to be in a party to get anything accomplished" was quite possibly the most tedious, mind-numbing, and godawful experience ever placed in a video game. None of that was fun. It was fun in the same way a second job or an emotionally-needy long-distance girlfriend might be considered as such. You had to take the same approach to playing FFXI as you would to building a model ship, or writing a novel, just without any tangible results on the other end of it.

There is a big distinction between having fun doing an activity and putting up with doing an activity with the expectation that a reward would appear at the end of it. The Blue Mage skill grind, and Final Fantasy XI as a whole, are decidedly in the second category.

And even IF you personally have no issue putting up with the grind, there is nothing stopping you from practicing a little empathy for people who aren't. There is also nothing wrong with wanting the job to reach a place where it would actually be fun to play for everyone, instead of just you.

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Originally Posted by The_Distinguished_Anarchist

No one should like that game.
Final Fantasy XI is a useless game. If our lawmakers wanted to be consistent, they'd outlaw video games like that on the same professed grounds as marijuana prohibition. Chronic use of Final Fantasy XI will make you dull, reclusive, unmotivated, unthoughtful, and detached from reality -- and unlike cannabis, it isn't even fun. And that, for a video game, is the greatest crime of all.

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This guy,,,(insert...), Final Fantasy 11 is A BETTER GAME THAN XIV, & its been for the WHOLE XIV LIFE (AKA 10years+) GET OVER IT MISTER I PLAY 70days & then hate on community that do like this sort of gameplay. Leave the law & the marijuana out of this like seriously. If I was of your mentaility & running my life by your mentality I would of never tryed final fantasy 14 & honestly I do think xiv is a fun game but its sure not the "niche" type of mmo that is what make final fantasy be final fantasy.All i see here is stolen content from previous franchise experience. Going by your logic video games should barely if not even exist to begin with.Take that logic & biiaf.

PS: XI gameplay is not dull & its still kickin, (you brought up how it took a year for it to get better & you brought up finances) WELL ONCE AGAIN AND IVE SAID IT BEFORE & I SHALL REPEAT IT AGAIN!: 11 barely ever got advertisments if you compare it to other games. XI advertising sure was nothing versus what xiv is seeing or what wow have seen. 1 magazine, 1 brad game guide thats it, (far as being NA goes to my knowledge) Where was television? Live letters inside of a school gym? … http://archive.fo/L2RJv