SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

Funnily enough, I also remember the bolded. RDM, SAM, BLU, and DNC were easily the four most requested classes leading into Heavensward and Stormblood.

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BLU was thrown around, but it was nothing compared to RDM, SAM, and DNC. BLU was never even thrown around in ARR and HW. Yet, RDM and SAM were thrown around back then.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

It also sets a dangerous precedent where great job concepts might get shoved into the Limited category, a category that nobody wanted. [/B]

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Speak for yourself.

I love the idea of implementing jobs that are allowed to break the usual constraints, while also bucking the mentality that "end-game level cap content is the only thing that matters" that has infested this genre for far too long.

Besides, we're about to have (likely) 17 total jobs that do fit the usual XIV mold. This hysteria over an additional 1 that doesn't is getting ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Speak for yourself.

I love the idea of implementing jobs that are allowed to break the usual constraints, while also bucking the mentality that "end-game level cap content is the only thing that matters" that has infested this genre for far too long.

Besides, we're about to have (likely) 17 total jobs that do fit the usual XIV mold. This hysteria over an additional 1 that doesn't is getting ridiculous.

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I'm gonna second the "speak for yourself" part. Mostly because atleast as far as I remember the only FF job that seemed like it wouldn't be able to fit very well in XIV's combat was BLU. And personally I'm still thinking that by 5.0 it'll be able to get to lvl 80 and the devs will try to end up balancing it so it can do SHB end-game content.

Edit: Actually there is a second job that might get the limited treatment: Beastmaster. They've made it clear that pets haven't been something they exactly like to balance around, and while I believe they can (same for BLU) I could see it starting out as a Limited job as well.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

I don't know if this is a serious comment or not, but you can't just apply elemental damage to all monsters for one class. They removed it from the game when 2.0 came out. If you say that it's back in and then try to explain that it only work for BLU, I'm sure people will hop right on BLM and go "FINALLY, ICE MAGE IS THE META AGAINST THIS ICE MONSTER".

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Yeah, why would they implement an entire mechanic for just one class? That's ridiculous! I mean, pets?! What kind of mad, mad world do we live in where Arcanist gets a pet but Rogue doesn't!? Why, a Rogue with a pet wouldn't even fit the concept of a Rogue! Know what, ABORT, SHUT IT ALL DOWN! ALL OF IT, SHUT ALL OF IT DOWN!

I think you simply lack creativity. You have an extremely narrow view of what is possible and want to shove BLU into that tiny little box when it could be so much more. Simply excluding it from content doesn't make BLU somehow more interesting. Stop trying to limit what Blue Mage could be by saying it needs to be relegated to the sidelines because thinking about to how to make it interesting is hard.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Yeah, why would they implement an entire mechanic for just one class? That's ridiculous! I mean, pets?! What kind of mad, mad world do we live in where Arcanist gets a pet but Rogue doesn't!? Why, a Rogue with a pet wouldn't even fit the concept of a Rogue! Know what, ABORT, SHUT IT ALL DOWN! ALL OF IT, SHUT ALL OF IT DOWN!

I think you simply lack creativity. You have an extremely narrow view of what is possible and want to shove BLU into that tiny little box when it could be so much more. Simply excluding it from content doesn't make BLU somehow more interesting. Stop trying to limit what Blue Mage could be by saying it needs to be relegated to the sidelines because thinking about to how to make it interesting is hard.

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Pets are an additional mob, not an entirely separate damage calculation. I don't think you understand this conversation if you're using that as an example.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Pets are an additional mob, not an entirely separate damage calculation. I don't think you understand this conversation if you're using that as an example.

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Pets have a plethora of unique damage calculations. Simply changing an enemy's resistance is something that requires tweaking a few flags, pets require creating UI elements and a basic form of AI (and ask any summoner or scholar, their pet is dumb as a rock.)

The point I'm getting at is your blatant hypocrisy by saying X or Y can't work because of Z reason, when we have a multitude of examples on how SE made it work for other jobs without completely ruining the job. Every excuse I've seen for why BLU can't work has been incredibly weak and easily shown to be not true.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Pets have a plethora of unique damage calculations. Simply changing an enemy's resistance is something that requires tweaking a few flags, pets require creating UI elements and a basic form of AI (and ask any summoner or scholar, their pet is dumb as a rock.)

The point I'm getting at is your blatant hypocrisy by saying X or Y can't work because of Z reason, when we have a multitude of examples on how SE made it work for other jobs without completely ruining the job. Every excuse I've seen for why BLU can't work has been incredibly weak and easily shown to be not true.

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Pets do not have a plethora of unique damage calculations. You're asking SE to go through the game and give every single monster an elemental classifications for one class and only one class. It's not about making a few flags. It's about creating a new system and then applying it to every single mob, every single boss, and anything else since the game came out. Pets don't require you to change the entire battle system. They don't require brand new and unique damage calculations. They didn't require a special form of AI, just any old AI that was already used for NPCs. Pets are nothing like what you're asking. You're asking for them to bring back a 1.0 system that have basically spent the last 5 years writing out of the game for a single class.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Just because something is old doesn't mean it has a lot of history. If you've only been introduced a handful of times then unless there's a lot of people who are major fans of FFV(which you can see is not the case because people are whining at the AF) then it's really not a popular class.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

BLU was thrown around, but it was nothing compared to RDM, SAM, and DNC. BLU was never even thrown around in ARR and HW. Yet, RDM and SAM were thrown around back then.

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So it was one of the most requested classes for the past few expansions (enough so that you remember it, we disagree as to degree). But then it's really not a popular class. Reconcile.

Pets are really just an extended animation of a player skill, tbh. There's not a bunch of extra damage calculation; "they buff magic damage" is no different from ninjas buffing slashing damage.

There's no reason they couldn't have designed blu to fit into the standard job paradigm. It would just be boring and a thematic mess and would look nothing like blu looks to be now. You would get abilities in the exact same way as everyone else and sometimes you would have a solo duty to get hit by something to unlock a skill. You absolutely would not have this carnival progression thing, nor would you have the 49 abilities on offer at release, it wouldn't be coming ahead of the expansion, and there is definitely no world where they add blu as some kind of hybrid.

To me, this is a lot more interesting than another ranged dps. You can disagree (and you're wrong ;) or you can be one of those blu fanboys in which case I am sorry your pet job lost the don't be a weird thing lottery, my condolences. But I am hyped.

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

So it was one of the most requested classes for the past few expansions (enough so that you remember it, we disagree as to degree). But then it's really not a popular class. Reconcile.

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Past expansion and the 4th most requested (the first two being implemented), but then again, what's left after BLU? GEO is the only one I can think of that's not a completely obscure class. I guess we're only talking about older classes being implemented because Gunblade was something that has also been requested a lot over the years. Realistically it's the second least requested class.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Pets do not have a plethora of unique damage calculations.

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The pet version of "potency" is different from the player version, and they don't benefit from certain buffs and debuffs. 135 potency from Ifrit is less damage than 135 potency from Garuda. In addition, pets do different damage types -- Ifrit, for example, benefits from Dragon Kick.

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You're asking SE to go through the game and give every single monster an elemental classifications for one class and only one class. It's not about making a few flags. It's about creating a new system and then applying it to every single mob, every single boss, and anything else since the game came out.

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Oof, all this straw sticking out of my shirt makes me an easy target!

No, people are asking for the ability for BLU to, say, provide the piercing debuff for a Bard or Machinist so that a Dragoon isn't mandatory, or they can provide a blanket +magic damage taken debuff to an enemy (they can likely just reuse old code from Foe's Requiem.) The game can differentiate between damage types -- for example, did you know AST's autoattack is Slashing damage? Why can't they have a situation where BLU can apply a piercing debuff and then let Thousand Needles benefit from it, while the BRD also gets a bonus? Or maybe +magic taken and slam them with Trine while letting the SMN also benefit?

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Pets don't require you to change the entire battle system. They don't require brand new and unique damage calculations. They didn't require a special form of AI, just any old AI that was already used for NPCs. Pets are nothing like what you're asking.

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Pets don't behave like monsters. For example, ever wonder why most monsters don't immediately spam all of their skills in a row at the start of a fight, but pets do? The pet AI being stupid is literally baked into the Summoner rotation.

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You're asking for them to bring back a 1.0 system that have basically spent the last 5 years writing out of the game for a single class.

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And you're advocating for shutting down the FFXIV servers! See, I can make **** up too!

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SE could easily still include this side content that's just for Blue mage in solo/open-world play.

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Yoshida: Alright everyone, I want you to balance all of these 49 abilities TWICE. One time to fit the Carnival where we have Level based abilities, status effects, monsters strenghts and weaknesses, and all that good stuff. And one time to fit regular group gameplay where people have their rotation, fixed skills and everything we usually do. Oh and, please, don't forget about the fact that the players are able to choose 24 abilities and swap them at will to make their own set of skills, that need to be taken into account when balancing everything.
Dev Team: ... But S-sir... We already stuggle with balancing two or three new regular jobs every expansion... How are we supposed to pull that off?
Yoshida: I have no clue, but the players on the forums are saying that it's easy. So just do it. Pretty simple.


I love that "but it's easy!" argument so much.

I think we should try the system first and then see how it plays until 5.0.
Then the best choice would be give feedback on how to place BLU in the trinity/raid environment.

There is ways. Also SE listens what we say.

I would like to get rid of the trinity all together as pretty much all content now a days is just DPS with little healing/tanking.

My only concern is, 5.0 comes in and BLU stays on lvl 50 and doesn't advance anything.
As in becomes a system that is kinda "forgotten" or not updated. Being limited wont get the same attention as the other classes/jobs.

I would love to do PVP, Roulettes, and Extremes with it.

I am honestly baffled that they didn't look at their "limited job" concept and say: "OK, this is a controversial new system that we've never attempted before. Our track record with new concepts have been met with muted responses in the past. So we'll make a new FFXIV-exclusive job called 'Aethermancer' that uses this system."

I refuse to believe a company as large as Square with so many eyes and ears could be as tone deaf to not understand that MANY people would want to main Blue Mage and that making it a "half job" would be nothing less than a slap in the face.

This same uproar would have occurred had they chosen Red Mage, Dragoon, or Warrior for this system.

Instead, they could have given us this new solo content AND we could have gotten Blue Mage as a fully-fledged class. It gets weary to hear these multi-million dollar companies complain they "don't have the resources". That excuse didn't (and isn't) flying with Blizzard and their abysmal "Battle for Azeroth" expansion which feels like Legion 0.5 and Square should not be allowed to wriggle off the same hook.

After watching people talk (mostly complain) for years about how BLU would/should/shouldn't/couldn't be implemented, it's been pretty clear that they would never be able to please the players.

Calling it a "limited class" was a mistake because it gives everyone this idea that it will be changed to what they want, a normal class. Just look at it as being a separate brand of content, take it for what it is, and prepare yourself for Beastmaster pokemon battles in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

After watching people talk (mostly complain) for years about how BLU would/should/shouldn't/couldn't be implemented, it's been pretty clear that they would never be able to please the players.

Calling it a "limited class" was a mistake because it gives everyone this idea that it will be changed to what they want, a normal class. Just look at it as being a separate brand of content, take it for what it is, and prepare yourself for Beastmaster pokemon battles in 6.0.

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This is probably the way to please the least amount of players, however. Everyone would have expected it to be adapted the same way literally every other job has been adapted. Instead they put in a tremendous amount of effort for what is literally a dead-end job.

Limited Job is an accurate title for what it is...an inferior version of a normal job.

I think it would be interesting to see some jobs have different behaviors for progression, but at least for jobs that seem to be for combat I believe they should be viable for all combat (imo). I would be fine if Blue Mages had to gather a specific set of skills to queue for content uniquely different than the other jobs (and those specific skills are not gated behind patches, other non-queue required skills could be though) - meanwhile some side / solo / special features / mechanics and skills can be included and locked up. So Blue Mage has to gather stuff, and perhaps can follow a different level path (usually plays solo in open world), but in the end can play the same end game content as everyone else (not having to wait many patches till the content is no longer valuable).

Perhaps another example is that puppet master requires you to maintain and craft your puppet but once all that is said and done they too can join end content, and perhaps for balance reasons certain skills/puppet parts wont cross into that realm but so be it. (Those pieces of puppet that are viable/allowed for end content are made available at the same rate as other normal jobs - but unique solo pieces can be made at SE's own rate to enhance and "play" with the job). Or a transforming job turns into giant bosses when solo-queud cause SE thought it'd be cool. Summoner gets solo queue limit breaks that are really pissed off egis, hush hush no one will know you're destroying the planet if you do it behind their backs lol. A fairly weak example of "because we can" weird play I always wanted to see with jobs was Dragoon being able to hyper jump (as in the space bar button can charge up and just be a better jump than other players), with places that they can take advantage of just because they're super mobile (well with flying the desire is less interesting now but I still want to see them be able to do it just cause).

Certainty having a special approach makes a hard to balance equation even harder- so I don't think it's easy to design a fully featured job that can inspire a unique system and still be viable for balanced content but... I can't help feel a bit sad I wont get to play Blue Mage in a group (via duty finder/current end game). Although I'd still try it out, can't say I wouldn't enjoy being able to solo and cast crazy spells - I'm sure I would! ... but there would always be an itch "wish I could play this where it counted". Perhaps if blue mage gets a skill that increases drop chances they could be at least be a solid glamour hunting solo job, "time to collect my primal mounts". At least then, if they can't enjoy current viable content they'd be viable "old content" sweepers. Have fun gathering stuff so you can go into dungeons with significant less of a grind (don't need to run something 100 times to get that rare drop) and get good (glamour / side job) stuff while being OP.

I guess finally a worse example would be I was okay with consumables in the older mmorpgs, or taking care of your pet in vanilla WoW (iirc that's not a thing anymore, pet always happy) - so I don't mind if Blue Mages have a few hurdles to suffer through to be unique and suitable but I would really hope that "unable to duty finder" turns into can use duty finder if you do "this". Hope everything works out! (Even if its not what I want, still I hope it works out into something neat and valuable - we'll see soon~).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yoshida: Alright everyone, I want you to balance all of these 49 abilities TWICE. One time to fit the Carnival where we have Level based abilities, status effects, monsters strenghts and weaknesses, and all that good stuff. And one time to fit regular group gameplay where people have their rotation, fixed skills and everything we usually do. Oh and, please, don't forget about the fact that the players are able to choose 24 abilities and swap them at will to make their own set of skills, that need to be taken into account when balancing everything.
Dev Team: ... But S-sir... We already stuggle with balancing two or three new regular jobs every expansion... How are we supposed to pull that off?
Yoshida: I have no clue, but the players on the forums are saying that it's easy. So just do it. Pretty simple.


I love that "but it's easy!" argument so much.

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Nobody asked for them to balance 49 abilities. Nobody asked for 49 abilities. Everyone that has asked for BLU has anticipated the standard fair of abilities that every class gets. Hell the amount of abilities FFXIV has already exceeds most BLU's in every FF game to date on spells. Most BLU throughout the FF series only had about 20-25 spells. The only one I can think of that would exceed the ability number we have in XIV is BLU in XI, well aside for BLU in XIV. Which XI is a good example of a BLU being implemented with all the standard fair BLU gameplay without breaking the game.

It seems more like they are working harder than necessary to make it broken.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Everyone that has asked for BLU has anticipated the standard fair of abilities that every class gets.

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[citation needed]

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Originally Posted by Fyce

[citation needed]

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Common sense isn't so common anymore apparently.

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Originally Posted by Mooga

Also SE listens what we say.

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Well, they do, sometimes. When people cried about WHM Lilies before Stormblood launch, Yoshi-P said: "Please trust me." Look at where we are now. Things like that make it pretty hard to just wait and see.

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Originally Posted by OP

SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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It's not a terrible idea in principle, not really convinced an iconic job like Blue Mage is the greatest pick for it though.

I have thought about the idea before, "special classes," but I was thinking stuff more like:
Chocobo Knight - riding around fighting from choco back in the open world and in special duties.
Captain - directing your squad, getting extra squad abilities and options, maybe unlocking banners that provide buffs in world and fluff content.

Side activities that can provide some neat extras for general use when leveled but nothing game breaking.

Blue doesn't appear to have any interaction at all with main classes and jobs though, which is a bit :confused:

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Calling it a "limited class" was a mistake because it gives everyone this idea that it will be changed to what they want, a normal class. Just look at it as being a separate brand of content, take it for what it is, and prepare yourself for Beastmaster pokemon battles in 6.0.

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Beastmaster limited job that's essentially Eorzean pokemon (with player v player battles) actually sounds quite cool.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Nobody asked for them to balance 49 abilities. Nobody asked for 49 abilities. Everyone that has asked for BLU has anticipated the standard fair of abilities that every class gets. Hell the amount of abilities FFXIV has already exceeds most BLU's in every FF game to date on spells. Most BLU throughout the FF series only had about 20-25 spells. The only one I can think of that would exceed the ability number we have in XIV is BLU in XI, well aside for BLU in XIV. Which XI is a good example of a BLU being implemented with all the standard fair BLU gameplay without breaking the game.

It seems more like they are working harder than necessary to make it broken.

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While it's true we didn't ask for such a high count ability count, I don't think the majority of those of us who wanted to eventually see BLU added anticipated the current standard fair of abilities that every class gets. I think it more of us assumed that either (1) the standard fair would eventually shift over the coming expansions until BLU wouldn't be sore horribly out of place or (2) we, sadly, wouldn't get BLU. Now we have a "real BLU" that is nonetheless not a real BLU in that its not a real job and no improvements towards allowing it.

It is true though that in giving up early they seem to be taking a bit of pleasure in making sure it looks unfit for real content so that they're less likely to be called out on that forfeiture.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yoshida: Alright everyone, I want you to balance all of these 49 abilities TWICE. One time to fit the Carnival where we have Level based abilities, status effects, monsters strenghts and weaknesses, and all that good stuff. And one time to fit regular group gameplay where people have their rotation, fixed skills and everything we usually do. Oh and, please, don't forget about the fact that the players are able to choose 24 abilities and swap them at will to make their own set of skills, that need to be taken into account when balancing everything.
Dev Team: ... But S-sir... We already stuggle with balancing two or three new regular jobs every expansion... How are we supposed to pull that off?
Yoshida: I have no clue, but the players on the forums are saying that it's easy. So just do it. Pretty simple.


I love that "but it's easy!" argument so much.

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Anyone have a list of all XIV mob skills? In all honesty, I think it's totally possible.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Anyone have a list of all XIV mob skills? In all honesty, I think it's totally possible.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L...nemy_abilities

Not comprehensive, but a lot of them are there.

To preface, these are my thoughts and opinions and not meant to be argumentative. I'm also not saying that BLU should or shouldn't be on of these "Limited Jobs," though personally I'd like BLU as a full fledged job instead.

I personally don't think the "Limited job" concept is wholly a bad idea, I think their idea of them being a solo oriented job is the bad part of it. If they were geared towards casual to mid-core content and not soloing or hardcore content, I think the concept would be better. Mid-core content (ie. Dungeons, Roulettes, Normal/Hard Primals, Alliance Raids, Normal Raids) probably accounts for at least 85% of content. If its balanced for these things, rather than hardcore content or being strictly solo, it could be a SLIGHTLY over preforming job of its role. I'm talking something in the realm of, at most, maybe a job that can do RDM level of utility with a SAM level of damage ceiling. Which is broken, but in a dungeon or normal mode primal where your goal is clearing it rather than getting the best gear or being competitive I don't think it makes a huge difference or upset as many people.

I digress, if SE designs these "Limited Jobs" for use in at most mid-core content it would be a much better idea than making them solo oriented, which I think is counter intuitive of what an MMO is designed to be. It would allow SE to add jobs that would otherwise be "too strong/unbalanced" or "don't necessarily fit into an MMO" more freely. The system could allow SE more freedom in job inclusion as well as a higher frequency of new "jobs."

If the open world was actually challenging or engaging, then I'd be at least a little more receptive to this. I'm not even a BLU fan, just moderately curious, and I was still greatly disappointed in this.

SE truly fails to understand how mind-numbingly dull non-grouped content is. I was even in the camp that thought it may revitalize local grouping again...but for what purpose? Unless BLU is purposefully ultra weak in order to artificially increase the difficulty of the open world or level 50 fights, I can't see anyone actually having fun with the content itself.

There is no reason Blue Mage could not have it's unique learning mechanic and a tweaked kit for current content.

In fact, it would be awesome if we had solo content for each class - somewhat like the Class Order Hall campaigns like WoW had for each class (even with variation for spec) in Legion. All told each spec included that's 34 different skill sets and weapon trees, etc.

Square is not some small indie company. I appreciate what they've done with FFXIV but it just seems bizarre to me why they cannot dish out more content. Why do we have to choose between "different" or "more"? It's a false equivalency.

My comments thus far have been pretty negative, so I'll try to be positive this go.

Personally, I feel that adding limited jobs - of jobs that have already been created in other FF games that people are potentially looking forward to - is a mistake. If they were set on doing something like this, then do it with a NEW job. Don't make Blue Mage a limited job, make a brand new job that is limited instead. Leave the jobs that have a history as full jobs.

Or to offer ideas - make limited jobs non combat.

Auctioneer. Merchant. Farmer. Caravan Traveller. Performer.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Hello,

Lynn Nuvestrahl, the salty Machinist theorycrafter here. The highlight of yesterday was the Q&A where Machinist and White Mage job issues were recognized, thank you Square-Enix. Our voices were heard. Please hear me out again because the day was all downhill from there.

I wanted to bring attention to the concept of Limited Jobs from yesterday's LLP. TL;DR:

This is an extremely bad idea. Please cut your losses: adjust the new class for group play and never introduce another Limited Job.

Dear Square-Enix, yesterday you announced the concept of Limited Jobs and "the first" limited job Blue Mage. From the slides presented, the concept seems to imply that the job will exists "outside" of the normal jobs used group content, a solo job if you will, because it would break the balance or somehow not fit into the normal gameplay. The notion of "first" gives me the chills because that would imply there's others on the way.

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You should not have this reaction as you do not know how it is currently being fully implemented. Meaning, youre having a strong emotional response to something thats not even in the game yet.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

The reasoning was that Blue Mage has many game breaking abilities that wouldn't work in an MMO and you couldn't have the class without those abilities in order for it to be fun. This is absolutely false. Many jobs have been greatly adjusted to fit into the FFXIV system, such as Summoner, which is nothing like its offline counterparts. You can absolutely balance Blue Mage for group play if you wanted to. Look at all the CC effects that don't work on bosses, for example.

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Again, you do not know that it would not be possible to effectively balance. If the goal of BLM is to learn monster skills, then gimping those skills so they "fit" within the current games construct seems silly. Part of the allure of BLM is having skills that are directly from monsters (like Bad Breath). If you were to take that and dumb it down so it could fit within the constructs of the wider game, the skill would probably become moot due to the fact its a CC ability. Given the nature of BLM, its more than likely many skills would fall into that category. That they would be to strong by design, or by numbers.

And because of that factor, that would mean a few things. You would have to re balance the game around BLM (and likely make it a must take on any raid/EX/Etc), or you would have to dumb it down and gimp it so hard that it loses its identity and just becomes purely aesthetics of the skills and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Furthermore, just as you can't have balance breaking abilities in an MMO, you also can't have a solo-only class in an MMO, because it's literally pointless if you can't play the rest of game with it. The initial response from the raiding community has been overwhelmingly negative. While I'm sure a solo-oriented player here and there might be happy, personally I wasn't even looking forward to this class and I was still let down, because instead of fixing current job and balance issues, a massive amount of resources was spent on this elaborate... mini-game. FFXIV is an MMO, not a solo-player game. People want more options and aesthetics to challenge the content in game with. Making a job unable to participate in said content basically makes it dead-on-arrival for most people.

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This is purely wrong. What is the point of Fisherman in the game currently? It offers little to nothing in the sense of an MMO currently. What is the point of Chocobo racing, or being able to solo things like HoH/PotD. There is a lot of Solo content in FFXIV already, and people do play and enjoy it. So yes, you can have solo play in an MMO, which is what this is. Its Solo play with some party/MMO elements. The Raid community, btw, isnt the entire community. Theyre not the only driving force of the game. Not every bit of content that gets introduced to the game has to be in service of the Raid crowd.

Furthermore, how do you know that therye not working on job rebalances. Far as I know, we know nothing about how job balance will be handled in 5.0. Chances are high there will be some reworkings. Just because they did not announce it here does not mean it isnt happening. There is likely a lot of things that they didnt talk about in the first Fan Fest.

Lastly, people do want more content. And t hat is exactly something SE is giving them. MORE CONTENT. Its not in the usual vein of the game, but it is something to fill down time with. This is why it has a cap, and why it will slowly increase over time. They do not want you to "main" BLM. They want you to have something between tiers that you can play. This is also why NewGame+ exists. To give you things to do when things slow down. Because yes, there are actually a lot of players who wnat to do Solo content in FFXIV. They want to log into the world and just do things without having to interact with others. Sometimes, it's fun not to need a party to do things and still have a good experience in an MMO. And there is nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

It also sets a dangerous precedent where great job concepts might get shoved into the Limited category, a category that nobody wanted. What about Puppetmaster? Beastmaster? Dancer? Suddenly we don't know if we'll ever get a working FFXIV version of interesting jobs from previous games. If you want to have unique leveling experience and skill acquiring mechanics, that sounds like a great idea, but please make sure all the jobs can be used in regular battle content.

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The precedence is only dangerous if it poses a problem to your view on how the game should be. Again, your view seems to be centered around the concept that everything needs to work either in service of Raid, or atleast in service of multiplayer. If it doesnt, its not worth while and shouldnt be implemented. That way of thinking would make this game far more barren and much more uninteresting. We do not know how this is going to play out. We dont. And speculating that this new system is going to be a huge disaster because it doesnt fit your perception of how MMOs should operate is silly. This could be a great thing thatll give us players MORE stuff to do in game, and you are arguing to scrap it before it even is in the game. Good job saying "If it doesnt work the way I want it, then no one should have it."

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Limited Jobs are a terrible concept. Please, reconsider. I'm saying this now so that we don't have another disaster like the current White Mage Lily system, a problem that was called out before Stormblood launch but has remained an issue with no solutions throughout the whole expansion.

This is that call out. Don't repeat history.

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Not everything SE implements works. We all know this. But Id rather they try and implement new things and fail, then have them stay within the margins. We wont get fun, new, and interesting things in the game if they listen to nonsense like this.

Am I the only one looking forward to more solo content?
Just because it's disguised as a job doesn't mean it isn't solo content, and it's something we could really use.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

The pet version of "potency" is different from the player version, and they don't benefit from certain buffs and debuffs. 135 potency from Ifrit is less damage than 135 potency from Garuda. In addition, pets do different damage types -- Ifrit, for example, benefits from Dragon Kick.

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So...what's different between pets and player character?! I'll have you know that my Red Mage deals different damage with Jolt (180 potency) than my Black Mage with Blizzard (180 potency). Oh, these classes have different damage calculations!

Yeah...no. It's just that it's not a calculation without input. And part of that input is in stats. You know...those thingies that you get when you equip various stuff? Mobs have them too. Yeah, crazy, right! They have stats even though they don't get equipment!

And pets doing different damage types is irrelevant seeing as player characters do as well. The calculations, function...they're all there.

There is only one unique aspect in pets. Their resistances/immunities. They cannot be stunned (or several other debuffs), they aren't targeted for most player-target skills (duh, they aren't players) and they receive less damage from AoE specifically even beyond having high defensive stats.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Pets don't behave like monsters. For example, ever wonder why most monsters don't immediately spam all of their skills in a row at the start of a fight, but pets do? The pet AI being stupid is literally baked into the Summoner rotation.

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What are you talking about?! Many mobs open the fight with their skill and use it "on cooldown". The fact that it's their ONLY skill hardly matters here.

Mobs use their skills depending on how they are programmed which varies from monster to monster. The only difference is that pets don't have aggro variation. The moment something pulls their aggro they're gonna whack at it until told not to, master moves away too far or one of them is dead. Everything else is just variation normal to them which is...nothing unique.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Am I the only one looking forward to more solo content?
Just because it's disguised as a job doesn't mean it isn't solo content, and it's something we could really use.

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Nah. There are many people that look forward to more solo content. It's just that they're drowned under all the "It's an MMO game! There should be no solo content in it!" crowd.

If their going to go down this road they should expand more on the open world concepts have it's own reward system separate ect from the current structure. I just find the current areas very underwhelming and could under go some changes to spice it up a bit more. /shrugs

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Originally Posted by odintius

If their going to go down this road they should expand more on the open world concepts have it's own reward system separate ect from the current structure. I just find the current areas very underwhelming and could under go some changes to spice it up a bit more. /shrugs

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We dont know if this might already be in the works. Problem with a lot of this sillyness is simply that Fan Fest only revealed a small bit of information, so there are a lot of conclusions being made out of thin air and assumptions. Dont even know how cool the BLU line will be. Point is, we should wait and see what happens, and not jump on a bandwagon that decries this as the greatest ill to ever plague FFXIV.

100% in agreement here.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Everyone that has asked for BLU has anticipated the standard fair of abilities that every class gets.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Common sense isn't so common anymore apparently.

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You used the word "everyone", when there are countless examples of people being happy with what they presented, as well as people absolutly never asking for what you suggested in the reactions following Yoshida's stance on BLU in 2014.

I thought not making baseless and dishonest generalities to make your point was common sense. But you're right, doesn't seem common enough.

Whatever the case, speak for yourself, not for "everyone". Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You used the word "everyone", when there are countless examples of people being happy with what they presented, as well as people absolutly never asking for what you suggested in the reactions following Yoshida's stance on BLU in 2014.

I though not making baseless and dishonest generalities to make your point was common sense. But you're right, doesn't seem common enough.

Whatever the case, speak for yourself, not for "everyone". Thank you.

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While he worded it slightly wrong, He isn't that far off. Imagine Yoshida came up to you and said simply "We're adding Blue Mage into the game" and nothing else. Would you expect to see a job in the sense of the others we've gotten so far? Eg 10-24 abilties and a rotation to use them in. I find it likely that a lot of people would since that's how every job until now has been handled regardless of FF11's version of BLU and it's "customisation"

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

While he worded it slightly wrong, He isn't that far off. Imagine Yoshida came up to you and said simply "We're adding Blue Mage into the game" and nothing else. Would you expect to see a job in the sense of the others we've gotten so far? Eg 10-24 abilties and a rotation to use them in. I find it likely that a lot of people would since that's how every job until now has been handled regardless of FF11's version of BLU and it's "customisation"

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It's not "slightly wrong", it's using a false generality to give their opinions more credit than they actually have. By saying "everyone", they included people who actually never shared that view. It's disgustingly dishonest and disrespectful not to consider other people's opinion and trying to stomp their with yours using false and baseless claims.

Anyway.

Why would I need to imagine Yoshida saying something like that when he actually said the exact way they would do BLU if they were to implement it, and that it correspond perfectly to what they presented during the FanFest? Weird job not fit for party play that'd need heavy tweeking. That's what we got, because that's what a Blue Mage is about: having to learn an arsenal of gimmicky and situational skills from enemies to use in battle.
Blue Mage, and the toolkit given by Blue Magic in general, was never fitted to be in FFXIV. Whoever thought that a toolkit heavily based on status effects, gimmiks, enemy level, and exploiting elemental weaknesses was something that could easily fit in XIV is a fool. Edit: or very naive/ignorant.

Just look at what SMN became. A lot of people still criticize it today for not actually being a "true summoner" but a glorified pet job, which doesn't even handle pets very well. Do people really think that BLU would turn any better? Really? Or are they just lying to themselves?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You used the word "everyone", when there are countless examples of people being happy with what they presented, as well as people absolutly never asking for what you suggested in the reactions following Yoshida's stance on BLU in 2014.

I though not making baseless and dishonest generalities to make your point was common sense. But you're right, doesn't seem common enough.

Whatever the case, speak for yourself, not for "everyone". Thank you.

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Its pretty easy to deduce that when you go through and look at threads for ideas on how to implement BLU and at the time they conformed to the amount of abilities that FFXIV had at that point and time and then go forth and try and find a thread that breaks that mold. Common, yes. Common sense doesn't mean 100% factual information there buddy. It means using information provided to formulate a sound judgement on a topic or understanding, which is exactly what I did. There are no immediate outliers on the BLU topic where someone specifically asked for 49 abilities or more than what we have in FFXIV as a general ability number. So yes common sense was used. NOW people might because SE presented it as such, but up til this point there hasn't been. Using it as an excuse to limit the job further again correlates to my - they are going out of their way to make it hard to balance so they don't have to make it a proper job.

Perhaps you should research the word baseless and then move onto common sense from there.

Wait nevermind, so there isn't further explaining that needs to be done, i'll do the research for you:

Deduce: to determine by reasoning

Baseless: not based on any good reason.

Common Sense: good sense and sound judgment in practical matters.

The burden of proof is on you to show that my argument is without reason. So off you go minion find a thread in the past speaking on BLU that breaks the mold that FFXIV has followed to date, that does not include the actual reveal on BLU since that isn't what was being talked about. Then if you do, I will amend my statement to "most everyone".