Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I use those. They are clunky compared to accessing the default 16 buttons, where I would prefer to have my buttons that I'd like immediate access to. They're fine for less used abilities, but things like oGCD would be better accessed in the same 8 buttons where your combos are. But that's not possible.

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The idea is that you put oGCDs and buffs on the less readily accessible bars. Not your main combo.

Also, I added to my post; not to address MNK specifically, but to outline for you the differences between the current PvP setup for my main (BRD) versus how the jobs function.

I can add one for MNK though (very rough; it is not my main, and my knowledge of any optimization is limited):

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They aren't. Each finisher is its own combo. Branching combos are not a problem.

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MNK does have different skills they switch up in their basic 1-2-3, though.

Here’s a very rough one:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
This would be the first combo, as it applies your damage buffs (Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes) and a DoT (Demolish).

Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch
This is your most potent combo. You want to execute it under your buffs.

Your third combo would look like this:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
You need to refresh your damage buffs, as they’re about to run out, but you don’t need to refresh Demolish just yet; it still has enough ticks on it to last another combo.

Bootshine > True Strike > Demolish
Now you refresh Demolish, as it will expire soon.

Consolidating combos could be problematic for MNK because their combos are not always the same 1-2-3.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Mind explaining why? If it's optional, why would you be against it? You can simply keep doing what you've been doing all along.

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This game has trouble balancing the less complex stuff it has now, you think they would be able to balance this to be optional? I personally don't think so, so that is why I disagree. I don't believe they would be able to make it optional so therefore it would be forced on everyone.

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Originally Posted by Miste

This game has trouble balancing the less complex stuff it has now, you think they would be able to balance this to be optional? I personally don't think so, so that is why I disagree. I don't believe they would be able to make it optional so therefore it would be forced on everyone.

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So you're against it on an assumption. There's nothing to balance. The game already works this way. Nothing about the rotations changes. All that changes is that 6+ buttons become 3. That's it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The idea is that you put oGCDs and buffs on the less readily accessible bars. Not your main combo.

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Buffs, sure. But oGCDs that you have to constantly wave in to your attacks? Why wouldn't you want them more readily available?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So you're against it on an assumption. There's nothing to balance. The game already works this way. Nothing about the rotations changes. All that changes is that 6+ buttons become 3. That's it.

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Arguing that it works in PvP and that it should work flawlessly in PvE is a terrible argument.

PvP demolishes half of your toolkit and to be frank, you probably don't need it, but in places like EX trials, 24 man raids, and Savage? Yea, this could be a problem.

There's nothing in PvP that's entirely stressful that would require knowing your full rotation intuitively as opposed to actual PvE content where knowing and not knowing makes fundamental differences all around.

PvP is just not focused on in this game enough sadly.

It works in PvP because of what PvP is, it's not the same for PvE.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They aren't. Each finisher is its own combo. Branching combos are not a problem.

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Have you ever used Meikyo Shisui to upkeep a buff rather than generate Sen? That would no longer be an option.

How would a RDM burning mana with E. Riposte work?

If each finisher is it's own combo are you really even reducing button bloat by much at all? SAM would save nothing on AoE and three buttons on single target at the aforementioned expense of losing potential mistake recovery utility from Meikyo Shisui. That doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Arguing that it works in PvP and that it should work flawlessly in PvE is a terrible argument.

PvP demolishes half of your toolkit and to be frank, you probably don't need it, but in places like EX trials, 24 man raids, and Savage? Yea, this could be a problem.

There's nothing in PvP that's entirely stressful that would require knowing your full rotation intuitively as opposed to actual PvE content where knowing and not knowing makes fundamental differences all around.

PvP is just not focused on in this game enough.

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I never argued that it works in pvp therefore it works in pve. I said that the pve game works like this already. The rotations do not change.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Buffs, sure. But oGCDs that you have to constantly wave in to your attacks? Why wouldn't you want them more readily available?

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I play BRD, a job built off of oGCDs (sadly, SB removed a lot of ours). I don’t have any issues.

My extended cross consists of two of my songs (Mage’s and Army’s)—I rotate these on an 80 second rotation, because they have 80 second cooldowns—Raging Strikes (also 80 seconds), Battle Voice (180s), Refresh (180s), Troubadour (180s), Second Wind (120s) and other various things like Invigorate and Tactician that I do not need to access often (or things that aren’t used often (Warden’s Paeon, Head Graze). My other oGCDs (Pitch Perfect, Bloodletter, Rain of Death, and Sidewinder) along with Minuet are on my main hotbar. This should be the case for any job. The only ones that I see having issues would be pet-based jobs. I don’t play SMN, but I do play SCH, and I still don’t struggle.

My songs Mage’s and Army’s are on my extended cross from HW days, where they weren’t used often. Muscle memory worked against me moving them around, so I left them there. If you build up the muscle memory, there isn’t an issue toggling between regular cross and extended.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

\MNK does have different skills they switch up in their basic 1-2-3, though.

Here’s a very rough one:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
This would be the first combo, as it applies your damage buffs (Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes) and a DoT (Demolish).

Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch
This is your most potent combo. You want to execute it under your buffs.

Your third combo would look like this:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
You need to refresh your damage buffs, as they’re about to run out, but you don’t need to refresh Demolish just yet; it still has enough ticks on it to last another combo.

Bootshine > True Strike > Demolish
Now you refresh Demolish, as it will expire soon.

Consolidating combos could be problematic for MNK because their combos are not always the same 1-2-3.

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If Opo-Opo:

Bootshine, Dragon Kick, Arm of the Destroyer.

If Raptor:

True Trike, Twin Snakes, One Ilm Punch.

If Coeurl:

Demolish, Snap Punch, Rock Breaker.

Done. 3 buttons. Press the one you want.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then make it optional. You can keep your button bloat if you want, and others can get rid of it..

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Have you seen this development team? They don't tend to do optional well. If they implement combo consolidation, they'll just go back to throwing us new skills and telling everyone who dislikes it to basically deal. Look at how Role Actions were handled. We're a week away from them scrapping the whole thing because their attempt at "optional" skills was universally hated.

Unless they do extensive changes, my main job will essentially boil down to spamming 1 or 2 repeatedly. We would need several additional oGCDs to offset how repetitive that would become, which defeats the entire point of less button bloat.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

If Opo-Opo:

Bootshine, Dragon Kick, Arm of the Destroyer.

If Raptor:

True Trike, Twin Snakes, One Ilm Punch.

If Coeurl:

Demolish, Snap Punch, Rock Breaker.

Done. 3 buttons. Press the one you want.

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Okay, and your solution to SAM with regards to Meikyo Shisui? How do you propose that working under the influence of a buff that gets rid of combos to allow you to apply buffs earlier or to get Sens earlier outside of full combos?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I never argued that it works in pvp therefore it works in pve. I said that the pve game works like this already. The rotations do not change.

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They can depending on the scenario for some jobs—BRDs have a strict song rotation, but there are incidents where you would want to change them up:
—Single-target is Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s
—AOE rotation is Mage’s > Army’s > Minuet

Optimal rotations in UwU are to do Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s during Titan because there’s a chance you will be gaoled and waste Mage’s Ballad, a song more potent than Army’s. Transition into Ultima through Predation calls for you to do Minuet > Army’s (during Predation and for ~10 seconds when he returns) > Mage’s (clip at 10 seconds) > Minuet so that you can activate Troubadour for raid damage mitigation.

They’re niche, but the situations exist where you do change them up a bit.

You can’t do that if you shove them all into 1 button.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Okay, and your solution to SAM with regards to Meikyo Shisui? How do you propose that working under the influence of a buff that gets rid of combos to allow you to apply buffs earlier or to get Sens earlier outside of full combos?

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Place the mid-combo button where you would normally place your buffs. You'd still have access to it, but don't need it in your easy to access buttons.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

If Opo-Opo:

Bootshine, Dragon Kick, Arm of the Destroyer.

If Raptor:

True Trike, Twin Snakes, One Ilm Punch.

If Coeurl:

Demolish, Snap Punch, Rock Breaker.

Done. 3 buttons. Press the one you want.

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No one uses One Ilm Punch in their right mind. No respectable monk would use it. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

No one uses One Ilm Punch in their right mind.

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Relevant how? There something else more urgent to press?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Omg...you...STOP.

Clearly, you shouldn't be talking about Monk if you don't even play it or understand the class's rotation. The skill has been hot garbage for a loooooong time and every time SE tries to fix it and make it relevant, they make it worst.

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How does this have anything to do with button consolidation? If One Ilm Punch is garbage, you don't press it. Was that so hard?

What I mentioned turns 9 buttons into 3. Where did I make the mistake? Where did it ruin Monk?

The buttons change based on which form you're in. Not which button you pressed previously. RDM already does this in PvP (whether Dual Cast is active or not), so clearly they're capable of it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Relevant how? There something else more urgent to press?

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Omg...you...STOP.

Clearly, you shouldn't be talking about Monk if you don't even play it or understand the class's rotation. The skill has been hot garbage for a loooooong time and every time SE tries to fix it and make it relevant, they make it worst.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

How does this have anything to do with button consolidation? If One Ilm Punch is garbage, you don't press it. Was that so hard?

What I mentioned turns 9 buttons into 3. Where did I make the mistake? Where did it ruin Monk?

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You're the one who suggested this, not me. Maybe stop deflecting and remember what you actually posted. If you're suggesting that One Ilm Punch needs to be part of a "button consolidation" for MNK, then clearly, the lack of knowledge that you have for the class is really telling here.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

If Opo-Opo:

Bootshine, Dragon Kick, Arm of the Destroyer.

If Raptor:

True Trike, Twin Snakes, One Ilm Punch.

If Coeurl:

Demolish, Snap Punch, Rock Breaker.

Done. 3 buttons. Press the one you want.

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Maybe you just need to learn some muscle memory with your controller or switch to keyboard and mouse. As another controller player, that's what I feel is your problem.

No MNK keeps One Ilm Punch on their bar at all, therefore you're already reducing one button by default because it's hot garbage.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Place the mid-combo button where you would normally place your buffs. You'd still have access to it, but don't need it in your easy to access buttons.

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But the skill consolidation would literally turn the 1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8 combo that SAM has into 1-1-1 2-2-2 3-3, because that’s what PvP does: base combos are reduced into single-button spam as opposed to 3 buttons.

It wouldn’t allow for something like the 3-Sen opener, in which you hit Meikyo Shisui > Yukikaze (“8”) > Hagakure (oGCD) > Guren (oGCD) > Gekko (“6”) > Kaiten > Higanbana > Gekko (“6”). You can’t do that if the combos are all consolidated into 1-1-1 or 2-2-2 and require you to cycle through them beforehand to reach the skill you need. Yukikaze and Gekko are combo finishers, but the logic would still apply if one wanted to use it for Shifu (“2”) or Jinpu (“5”): they aren’t readily accessible without first cycling through to get to them.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The buttons change based on which form you're in. Not which button you pressed previously. RDM already does this in PvP (whether Dual Cast is active or not), so clearly they're capable of it.

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AGAIN, WHAT CAN BE DONE IN PVP CANNOT BE BE DONE FLAWLESSLY IN PVE.

You are literally going around in circles and losing this argument because nothing you've said is making any logical sense right now.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I never argued that it works in pvp therefore it works in pve. I said that the pve game works like this already. The rotations do not change.

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I'm calling bs on this line now.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Yes, combat is boring. But not because it's slow. It's only interesting when there are lots of mechanics happening that you're unfamiliar with, because once you're familiar with them there's little if any variance and you fall into a routine.

Which is also why low-end content*, FATEs, hunt targets and Diadem/Eureka (effectively hunts/FATEs) turn some people off. The minute you remove the "dance" aspect of the game you're left with only the job's rotation. It's nearly as engaging as hitting a striking dummy.

* Low level content has little in the way of oGCDs, which speed up the pace of button pressing, and depending on fight also have less involved/obsoleted mechanics.

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Even faster paced games can have boring combat if there is little to do other than just spam your rotation. No matter how mechanically interesting a class is, it eventually becomes dull if the encounter itself is little more than a target dummy.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So you're against it on an assumption. There's nothing to balance. The game already works this way. Nothing about the rotations changes. All that changes is that 6+ buttons become 3. That's it.

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To be fair you are arguing for it on an assumption as well, the assumption that SE would make it optional.

As I said, "I personally" don't think so, it is not based on anything but my opinion and experience with the jobs in this game.

I am quite content with how the system works now, an assumption is all I need to disagree. I am not making any claims that I am factually right or you are wrong, it is just my opinion.

Balance or not I don't believe SE would make this optional so, sorry, but I don't like the idea of it therefore I am against it. Nothing more to say really.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I never argued that it works in pvp therefore it works in pve. I said that the pve game works like this already. The rotations do not change.

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Technically rotations can fluctuate in actual encounters. Sure, on a dummy you just use the optimal rotation and have done with it, but in fights where you are required to adjust to the mechanics and flow of the fight, not so much.

BUT I may have misunderstood what you meant here since I missed a lot of the conversation. Just figured I'd point that out though.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It wouldn’t allow for something like the 3-Sen opener, in which you hit Meikyo Shisui > Yukikaze (“8”) > Hagakure (oGCD) > Guren (oGCD) > Gekko (“6”) > Kaiten > Higanbana > Gekko (“6”). You can’t do that if the combos are all consolidated into 1-1-1 or 2-2-2 and require you to cycle through them beforehand to reach the skill you need.

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That's wrong. It's a proof of you not understanding what was written beforehand. I said exactly how a proper cycling would work, and what MomomiMomi wrote suggests this is what she has in mind.

Apparently I was ignored back then for the sake of arguing with her, or it was not understood. So I'll write it up all nice and dandy, using samurai as the example.

Samurai have these combos:

Hakaze > Jinpu > Gekko
Hakaze > Shifu > Kasha
Hakaze > Yukikaze

Fuga > Mangetsu
Fuga > Oka

That means a total of 9 buttons.

By consolidating the LOWER skills under the HIGHER skills, we remove the need for lower skills. That's left with only the finishers, so 5 skills. You will have Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze, Mangetsu and Oka. If you use Meikyo Shisui to quickly stack buffs, you will need to add Jinpu and Shifu for a total of 7 skills. Still two buttons saved.

How does that work?! You put these finishers on the hotbar. You have Hakaze and Fuga and can put them on, but you don't. They are not needed. You push the button for Gekko and the game checks whether its combo effect is triggered. Yes?! It's used. No?! The game checks whether combo effect for Jinpu is triggered. Yes?! It's used. No?! Then game uses Hakaze. Pushed Gekko once, but decided to go for Kasha instead?! Go ahead, Shifu will be used the moment you push it since after pushing Gekko you used Hakaze, triggering combo effect for Shifu as well. Went with Shifu but want to get Gekko after all?! Push Gekko and Hakaze will be used since Shifu doesn't combo into Jinpu or Gekko.
The moment you use Meikyo Shisui, the combo effects for ALL of the finishers are triggered, so the moment you push Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze, Mangetsu or Oka they are used, because the game sees the combo triggered. It doesn't need to start from Hakaze/Fuga because the combo is NOT dependent on what you pushed last (this is true for abilities as well, so the combo will NOT reset if you use an ability in the middle), but on whether the combo effect is triggered.

The only time when this combo method would have hiccups is with combos that have multiple foundations for the same effect. For example skills Strike and Pound would be combo starters and skill Beat Up would trigger as a combo from either of them. Like get an effect from Strike or get potency from Pound. At that point this method would not work. However, that method is NOT used currently.


In all cases, you could still put all of the skills on your hot bars if you want. Though unless there's a "turn off consolidated combos" a miss-click would still work up like that, possibly "fixing" an error.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

That's wrong.

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So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

So if I'm correct there is some debate here about having the pvp combat system in pve? I can understand why people like the idea but I don't think it would work very well. It works in pvp because classes have been brought down to a very basic level. I don't think it would work for a full set of lvl 70 abilities. It might work for some classes, but I seriously doubt it would work for them all. And it would be pretty meaningless for healers given they don't have any sort of combo system or strict rotation.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

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Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

That's wrong. It's a proof of you not understanding what was written beforehand. I said exactly how a proper cycling would work, and what MomomiMomi wrote suggests this is what she has in mind.

Apparently I was ignored back then for the sake of arguing with her, or it was not understood. So I'll write it up all nice and dandy, using samurai as the example.

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How am I “ignoring” your comment? I didn’t even see it because this conversation was evolving too fast. I came in to talk about Momodi’s comment about controllers not having enough space, and it evolved to this. Calm down, please.



This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior. It’s PvP rotation is nothing like PvE, and unless they allow for customization of things like song orders (and where I can use my oGCDs like Bloodletter and Barrage), it messes with having to alternate songs, because there are situations where you do deviate from the standard rotation.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

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Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier. Not because of button bloat. Some of the skills they placed in the role actions have no effect on the amount of buttons you had previously, because you’re taking them now anyways (Protect, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna to name a few—all of these had their own buttons in ARR/HW...and now they still have their own button, it’s just locked behind the cross-role system; nothing changed with regards to number of buttons).

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

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They removed skills in an effort to simplify jobs because casual players struggled with maintaining DoTs and etc. It had nothing to do with saving space, though that was necessary. As for role actions, that, too, was a means of trying to offer choice and less about button bloat, especially since a good number of those skills were mandatory regardless. And like I said in a previous post, people hate it hence why they're abandoning it next week.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm going to guess that most of the people against it don't play on a controller, where of the 8 buttons you have immediate access to, 6 of them are dedicated to executing your combos. Which makes accessing any other buttons really clunky.

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I started on PS3, moved to PS4, now play on PC with a controller. Have never had a problem fitting my buttons onto my crossbar with any of the 15 jobs, during any of the 3 eras of the game.

If you think accessing buttons is clunky on controller, you've done goofed with your approach to setting up your bars. Which is the pitfall of having a fully customizable HUD, and ultimately one that single-button combos won't solve. The rest of your stuff will still be clunky until you devise a better approach for your own personal playstyle.

As the person that accidentally kicked this off and derailed the thread: Even if single button combos were an optional feature, it would still cause problems. The primary reason for them inevitably doing this is for button bloat, which means they would consolidate combos and immediately replace them with other, newer buttons to press. This would leave the total number of buttons the same for people opting in with the toggle, but increase them for anyone that's serious about controlling their character and/or that wants to remain engaged.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Even faster paced games can have boring combat if there is little to do other than just spam your rotation. No matter how mechanically interesting a class is, it eventually becomes dull if the encounter itself is little more than a target dummy.

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Agreed. Which is why most games don't work on a static rotation for both player and enemy attacks, but this one does. Presumably for ease of balancing, though whether or not that's actually been a success is debatable.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

How am I “ignoring” your comment?

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Well, it was skipped. That's being ignored. Though I think you misunderstand something if you think I have what to calm down from. But that's irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior.

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Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

Some other method would need to be thought of for those classes that lack combos...but yeah. That's where I would not expect Square Enix to do anything more than just make higher versions (like Stone X) or remove older skills. They had a chance and implied some skill combinations, yet the only thing related I know of is skill division. Like whatever was the name of the Scholars skill that was divided into Addle and Feint, both of which are unavailable to them at all nowadays...So yes. Depending on Square Enix to bring creative solutions, ones that are not found elsewhere...is like asking for the game to be ruined, as implied.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

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This looks good on paper but in reality you'd be creating a huge gap in the amount of brain power needed to do a rotation correctly on some classes versus others. Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

And yes I am aware combo systems have a graphic on ability icons for the next part of the combo, but some people ignore or misunderstand what this means. With the pvp system this particular type of error or misunderstanding would be eliminated from combo-based rotations, thus reducing the minimum skill and understanding requirement to play some classes adequately.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

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I'm sorry, but the only difference it does is prevent miss-clicks. If a person doesn't know about combo effects, then it means one of two things. They didn't read the tooltips, or they can't read the tooltips. In both cases we have players that will be equally sucky with and without this consolidation. Only the random miss-clicks will be affected, which occurs rarely enough for it to be of little relevance in the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier.

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And how exactly removing a combo AoE that only deals damage makes a job easier?! I won't be talking about the DoT's (or the parry/evasion skills), but Ring of Thorns, Grenado Shot, Wide Shot, old Feint, Mercy Stroke, Spur and both Stoneskin's had no reason to be removed except to free button slots. They were less complicated than most of the new skills and systems by far.

I do not try to argue against them removing some skills to dumb down the classes. But you are trying to argue against them removing some skills simply to make space for new ones, when they DID that.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

And how exactly removing a combo AoE that only deals damage makes a job easier?!

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Dunno, you're gonna have to ask the geniuses that came up with the idea. Also ask them why we even have things like Heavy Thrust still when the duration has been skyrocketed and the buff potency nerfed to, and I'm paraphrasing, "a point where players aren't harshly punished for not keeping the buff active." Just remove it at that point, y'know?

I still miss the single button, non-combo DoTs. WTB Phlebotomize.

Edit: Also, their excuse for removing the non-combo DoTs was that players weren't sure when to use them and kept forgetting to reapply them. Or something to that effect.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I'm sorry, but the only difference it does is prevent miss-clicks. If a person doesn't know about combo effects, then it means one of two things. They didn't read the tooltips, or they can't read the tooltips. In both cases we have players that will be equally sucky with and without this consolidation. Only the random miss-clicks will be affected, which occurs rarely enough for it to be of little relevance in the bigger picture.

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Sorry no, you're wrong. It won't only affect misclicks. It would also reduce the demand on the player to understand their class because they won't need to understand the most basic requirement of even creating a combo because the game would do it for them. They could spam one button without realising they're doing a combo.

And you must have quite a good faith in players if you think mostly only random misclicks are why people fail combos. It's not unusual to find players who do dps as if they're completely unaware as to what a combo system is.

Button consolidation in a game where a controller player can have access to 50+ buttons in a combat scenario. :thinking:

L2, R2 in set 1 =16
L2, R2 in set 2 =16 (R1 is an easy tap to swap sets)
L2+R2=8
R2+L2=8
L3 and R3=2
L2+L2=4
R2+R2=4

58 easily accessible button spaces.

I find myself getting drowsy in most dungeons, it limits how many times and when i can run them. There is something very repetitive about them that lulls me to rest.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

58 easily accessible button spaces.

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Not really that accessible, anything above 32 is a pain to use. the double tap extended bar is really easy to mess up (double tap l2 or r2) and using r+a face button is easier than r alone to switch between sets. But the base 16 is the only viable stuff for combos and very often used OGCDS, with the second 16 for less common stuff. Anything longer feels like just long enough of a delay to mess up moves. Like I used to use r+O to switch to DPS spells as a whm in HW, then r+ triangle to go back to heals, but it was a big pain.

Like a lot of moves the second or less it takes to switch matters. I can't use cover effectively as pld because there's a delay between selecting target, second 16, activating. Something like Dragon eye is ok because it's not context sensitive as much, i dont need to react with it.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I'm sorry, but the only difference it does is prevent miss-clicks.

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I respectfully disagree. In virtually every context, in virtually every genre, games thrive when they put control of actions in the hands of players. By automating combos, a layer of control is removed. This would result in me feeling less attached to my character, less engaged with combat, less in-touch with the job I'm playing at the time.

If you're having trouble managing the game on a controller, then use a keyboard and mouse. Certain control schemes work better for certain genres and for certain people, and there's no shame in switching it up. There are countless titles that were substantially harmed by having to account for either a keyboard / mouse or a gamepad under less-than-perfect situations. SE has managed to walk the rare path with FFXIV of getting it largely right for both, and they'd be insane to change course now.

Yeah, but the quests don’t require you to kill a ton of monsters and the drop rate is 100% so that easily makes up for it

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But the base 16 is the only viable stuff for combos and very often used OGCDS, with the second 16 for less common stuff. Anything longer feels like just long enough of a delay to mess up moves.

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Practice more.

https://i.imgur.com/nUtRxT7.jpg

Set2 is L2->R2/R2->L2, Set3 is mostly text macros, Hotbar1 is strictly for seeing CDs. I have no idea why I didn't delete Internal Release; never bothered to redo it post-SB launch.

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Like a lot of moves the second or less it takes to switch matters. I can't use cover effectively as pld because there's a delay between selecting target, second 16, activating. Something like Dragon eye is ok because it's not context sensitive as much, i dont need to react with it.

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Reactive vs proactive is the issue here.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Practice more.

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I don't think this is a fair thing to say. For a start some classes have more abilities than others, so from that alone the difficulty of getting your ui to work for you can be harder or easier depending on what you play. Secondly some people are better suited to joypad, others are better suited to keyboard and mouse. I personally found the joypad clunky as hell in combat. I really hate it. However I know players who love playing on joypad, and some of them find using keyboard and mouse awful.

I really do think the option to play in either way is one of the great things about this game. You can use whatever you like best and still play in the same content with the same people.

As a side note I do far prefer joypad for gathering.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Practice more.

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Just curious, why did you show less than 32 job actions when they said "anything more than 32 is a pain to use"?

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Originally Posted by Miste

To be fair you are arguing for it on an assumption as well, the assumption that SE would make it optional.

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Of course I am. My formal request would be "SE, would you please add in consolidated combos as an option?" Your assumption, though, is that they would screw it up. If we're basing anything on that, they should just never make anything new, ever, because I'm pretty sure plenty of players are going to assume they're going to screw everything up with their track record.

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BUT I may have misunderstood what you meant here since I missed a lot of the conversation. Just figured I'd point that out though.

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You did, but you weren't the only one. I should have just worded it better.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

My formal request would be "SE, would you please add in consolidated combos as an option?"

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May I ask why you have thus far not responded to my concerns? I'm honestly curious as to your thoughts. To summarize so you don't have to read through previous posts:

(1) I do not think any such feature can be truly considered optional, as it will offer more stable performance for the majority of players (I know I'd feel quite self-conscious for mis-clicking a combo if the option were available to never miss);
(2) I think such a system, if active, would lessen my engagement with my job, my sense of control of my character, and my immersion in combat.

These twin concerns effectively mean that your optional "QoL" change would harm my in-game experience every time I participated in group combat. Presumably this isn't the outcome you're expecting or seeking, so I'm curious as to your reasoning for why this wouldn't happen.