Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Oscura

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the OP mention getting kicked from dungeons from low dps, which is mostly seen through parser.

and was removed from a shin ex pt before queue over fflogs.

And yes they did, or vote kick abuse wouldn't be a thing :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

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Difference of playstyle can include "not doing enough damage to the party's liking." Which again, can actually easily be judged based off of what you can see in the party window. Again, don't need a parser to see a paladin in Shield Oath with a full tp bar during dungeon pulls.

And again, looking at another website is not against the terms of service and kicking from my own pf based off what I see on that site is not abuse.

Not liking the end result of something does not mean you are being harassed or abused.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

It's subjective. People who use it right will use it the way it supposed to, analyze and compare to others damage and then self improve. If people don't want their logs uploaded, you simply just hide it. And again if people do find out later you are a bad player, should we be obligated to lower our skill to yours then never get a clear or a 13 min farm shinryu? Or even worse when we just flat out carry you, which in most cases most wont do and it's their own rule of party to do so, to kick you for underperforming.

Also why is it that TANKS outdps some dpses in roulettes or healers do it too? Like if you are a dps, isnt your job to do more than those 2 jobs? Or you simply saying a dps job is slack?

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"People who use it right will use it the way they're supposed to," yes, which is exactly what I said, but again, people on this forum can't read. I said people primarily use it as a tool to stroke their ego, which is true. I dabble in a lot of pro-parsing communities and discords, I parse and upload logs myself. The fact of the matter is that I see more people whining about their percentages not being high like it's a competition and less because they want to improve, and I've seen people flat out just shoot people down over their log numbers, even if the person themselves didn't upload it and had a bad run.

Also I don't know if you were using "you" as a general or regarding me, but if it's the latter, I'd appreciate if you never ever do that rhetoric again. It's incredibly condescending and defeats the entire purpose of your post. Also, one whole tank won't make the run take 13 minutes. You are exaggerating far too much. I also didn't mention or care for Shinryu aside from the fact that I told OP I wouldn't mind them just tanking only in shield oath. Nothing to do with condoning "carrying" or how people should "lower their skill level." Hell of a lot of assumptions you're making there.

Posts like these seriously smear the pro-parsing community.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

the OP mention getting kicked from dungeons from low dps, which is mostly seen through parser.

and was removed from a shin ex pt before queue over fflogs.

And yes they did, or vote kick abuse wouldn't be a thing :)

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You are saying it in your own words. "Vote kick abuse." You do not vote to kick someone from party finder. One single person kicks you. There is no "kick abuse" in party finder period.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

the OP mention getting kicked from dungeons from low dps, which is mostly seen through parser.

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My gf got kicked from a dungeon yesterday for being afk for 10 seconds and also friend of mine got harrased being shit in a dungeon yet they were top performer in a group. And?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

are saying it in your own words. "Vote kick abuse." You do not vote to kick someone from party finder. One single person kicks you. There is no "kick abuse" in party finder period.

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Sorry I meant ''you'' as in a player not you as you!
And yes I agree with the quote I quoted you on. And also I don't asume anything. I've seen whm's pull 3k dps in lost city skalla whtever its called while a SAM or a RDM does less. Tanks the same over 3k dps or near and dps lower.

Numbers aren't everything. I've cleared O1S and O2S a number of times. Check my FFLogs and I'll wager it will tell you I am a terrible astrologian. Trash-tier, maybe. What it won't tell you is those clears were PUGs on Party Finder. It won't tell you I could barely DPS because the OT got caught in yet another Clamp and got blasted to infinity, or that one DPS just couldn't get his head around the rise-and-balloon bounce of O2S, wiping themselves and others out. But when I mitigate tankbusters, rescue people from the edge of death time and again, when I time my little galaxy sphere to go off just after a big AoE, or just after Chary goes off knocking everyone's HP down to 1...that's just recorded as HP recovered, like anything else. Do I overheal? Hell yeah. In a PUG I have no idea how the other seven are going to act, and how well they can handle self-mitigation and cooldowns, so I have to overcompensate.

But FFLogs doesn't take any of that into account. Just DPS and overheal. I'm guessing my logs won't show anything but a terrible healer. For self-study and improvement, FFLogs is fine. But it simply does not take enough variables into account to present a fully accurate picture of others to pass judgement on.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

Just like you are assuming a :) is me being condescending, and using it as a means to insult me. That really showing me parser players are mature understanding, and not jerk at alll.

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Oh look everyone, a sweeping generalization of a group of people he disagrees with.

Must be Tuesday. Or literally any f****** day.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

But FFLogs doesn't take any of that into account. Just DPS and overheal. I'm guessing my logs won't show anything but a terrible healer. For self-study and improvement, FFLogs is fine. But it simply does not take enough variables into account to present a fully accurate picture of others to pass judgement on.

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Just wanted to pop in and say you can actually view things like sources of damage, what debuffs or buffs people have, and what killed players on FFlogs. It has a lot more information than people usually know, to be honest. If I went through those logs I could probably find the exact moment where your off-tank ate clamp and was blasted off the platform.

Though most people will only use it to look at DPS rankings, so you also technically aren't wrong.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Numbers aren't everything. I've cleared O1S and O2S a number of times.

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Numbers arent everything, until you have both tanks spam aggro combo, dps doing 2.5k each and healers 0 zero. You try that, then you come back to me and say if you got enrage in v1s and v2s.

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But FFLogs doesn't take [context] into account. Just DPS and overheal. I'm guessing my logs won't show anything but a terrible healer. For self-study and improvement, FFLogs is fine. But it simply does not take enough variables into account to present a fully accurate picture of others to pass judgement on.

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I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Numbers aren't everything. I've cleared O1S and O2S a number of times. Check my FFLogs and I'll wager it will tell you I am a terrible astrologian. Trash-tier, maybe. What it won't tell you is those clears were PUGs on Party Finder. It won't tell you I could barely DPS because the OT got caught in yet another Clamp and got blasted to infinity, or that one DPS just couldn't get his head around the rise-and-balloon bounce of O2S, wiping themselves and others out. But when I mitigate tankbusters, rescue people from the edge of death time and again, when I time my little galaxy sphere to go off just after a big AoE, or just after Chary goes off knocking everyone's HP down to 1...that's just recorded as HP recovered, like anything else. Do I overheal? Hell yeah. In a PUG I have no idea how the other seven are going to act, and how well they can handle self-mitigation and cooldowns, so I have to overcompensate.

But FFLogs doesn't take any of that into account. Just DPS and overheal. I'm guessing my logs won't show anything but a terrible healer. For self-study and improvement, FFLogs is fine. But it simply does not take enough variables into account to present a fully accurate picture of others to pass judgement on.

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I don't mean to burst your bubble, but according to your most recent o1s log, your whm cohealer actually spent more gcds healing than you did, and yet they did over 2k dps whereas you did about 1/8 the damage of the whm. I got my healer friend to help me read it since I'm just a filthy tank and not a healer, and they said you had almost half the casts of the whm(you only had 117 versus the whm's 206) and that your casts were all spread apart. So basically, there's a lot of time where you're just standing around doing nothing at all. Oh, and you only revived someone once whereas the whm revived the other two times. Just like Oscura said, there's a lot of information you get get from fflogs.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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FFlogs provides a GCD by GCD breakdown of fights. Sources of damage, deaths, etc. Whether you choose to actually look at that information or just the surface value numbers is on you.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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This...the 24 man parses made me laugh since well....My FC group usually runs those as part of our Drunk Friday Night Fun Night. :D So no, it absolutely does not give you a full picture. Heck my FC leader dragged me through delta drunk. Good thing no one was parsing that >.>

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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You are so wrong there, like really wrong. There is a timeline where the player does certain skill, where they burst or substain damage, how many times a spell been casted, how many cures has been used, how many times tank use their cds etc. It's just not numbers as you say. There is a lot more than just numbers, so please check it again.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I wish more people understood this like you. FFLogs provides nothing but numbers with no context. It tells you absolutely nothing about the player. And from what I've seen it doesn't even track all content in the game? So that's an even less useful picture.

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If you actually know how to use FFlogs, you can pin-point the precise moment someone died, how they died and what led to their death. It's far from simply a numerical tool.

It's a dps oriented battle meta.
Everyone us built as a dps with differing responsibilities. Some dps tank hits and other dps heal damage.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's a dps oriented battle meta.
Everyone us built as a dps with differing responsibilities. Some dps tank hits and other dps heal damage.

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...

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........what?

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Something that people keep forgetting. Every content in this game, from Normal to Savage (Excluding Ultimate) is designed in a way that it can be cleared with no tank or healer dps.

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I believe you are mistaken in regards to Savage being designed to not factor in tank dps. I'm pretty sure the last time SE weighed in on this topic Yoshi-P stated that:

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They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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Src: Game Watch interview with Yoshi-P

So any tank, in Savage content (I honestly don't give 2 figs what they do in dungeons), not making the effort to improve their DPS is not playing effectively and potentially putting more stress on the rest of the team that are DPSing appropriately.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but according to your most recent o1s log, your whm cohealer actually spent more gcds healing than you did, and yet they did over 2k dps whereas you did about 1/8 the damage of the whm. I got my healer friend to help me read it since I'm just a filthy tank and not a healer, and they said you had almost half the casts of the whm(you only had 117 versus the whm's 206) and that your casts were all spread apart. So basically, there's a lot of time where you're just standing around doing nothing at all. Oh, and you only revived someone once whereas the whm revived the other two times. Just like Oscura said, there's a lot of information you get get from fflogs.

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That is really creepy that you stalked him on a third party site just try and shoot him down

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

That is really creepy that you stalked him on a third party site just try and shoot him down

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Hilarity of your stalker accusation aside, he openly invited everyone to check his fflogs to try to back up his statements.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

That is really creepy that you stalked him on a third party site just try and shoot him down

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Not to mention that he picked the most recent O1S log, even though the poster said logs...as in plural. And O2S as well. But you know...people are gonna cherry pick at one thing...its how these things work in this forum.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Numbers aren't everything. I've cleared O1S and O2S a number of times. Check my FFLogs and I'll wager it will tell you I am a terrible astrologian. Trash-tier, maybe. What it won't tell you is those clears were PUGs on Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

That is really creepy that you stalked him on a third party site just try and shoot him down

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Do you read? I'll also add that if you just look at someone's char page and judge them based purely on percentile, it might not be an accurate representation of their skill. But if all that someone does is hit grey/green/blue then yeah it shows that the person in question can stand to improve at the game. And no I did not "stalk anyone on a third party site" but am just talking generally. FFlogs has a lot of data on it (for example it can show you the amount of damage you did when trick attack was up), but the problem is that most people (including me tbh) dont know how to use the information effectively.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If you actually know how to use FFlogs, you can pin-point the precise moment someone died, how they died and what led to their death. It's far from simply a numerical tool.

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I find people like to forget this.
It also shows buff uptimes, debuffs applied, healing done, healing received, and resource counts throughout the fight too. It's great for improvement.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Not to mention that he picked the most recent O1S log, even though the poster said logs...as in plural. And O2S as well. But you know...people are gonna cherry pick at one thing...its how these things work in this forum.

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I chose that one because that's the one they did their best on. If you prefer, I can look at their worst instead.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Not to mention that he picked the most recent O1S log, even though the poster said logs...as in plural. And O2S as well. But you know...people are gonna cherry pick at one thing...its how these things work in this forum.

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Did you want them to pick apart each and every log? That would be far less constructive and they did give them good general advice that hinders most people's performance. They had low GCD usage. Press more buttons.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Not to mention that he picked the most recent O1S log, even though the poster said logs...as in plural. And O2S as well. But you know...people are gonna cherry pick at one thing...its how these things work in this forum.

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1. Why should someone have to analyze every single log this person has up?

2. Why would you not pick the most recent log, in which a person would in theory have the most knowledge of how a fight goes and thus would have less mistakes/ more improvement/ better gear than an older log?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I chose that one because that's the one they did their best on. If you prefer, I can look at their worst instead.

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I don't particularly mind either way...just pointing out that if you do try to pull logs for that reason, use more than just one particular log to make a point.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Not to mention that he picked the most recent O1S log, even though the poster said logs...as in plural. And O2S as well. But you know...people are gonna cherry pick at one thing...its how these things work in this forum.

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IF you want to go though all of that person's logs and check each individual parse please be my guest. One can hope that as people do the fight more, their dps/healing will improve. This was why the most recent log was picked. If you wanted to cherry pick someone's log to make fun of them you could just pick the one they did the worst/best in. The log was just an example....

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

The log was just an example....

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Exactly, it was also meant to show what kind of information can be obtained from FFLogs. Not just numbers, but all the things that the posters above mentioned. That's how fflogs work (and Warcraft Logs, since they have a site like that for WoW too). It's an excellent tool for anyone willing to learn it. It provides a lot of information of the things that were right and wrong during a run. Uncertain how X wipe happened? Upload that log and find out. Work on it, improve. Low DPS? Well, time to look at other players and see how I can improve myself!

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I don't particularly mind either way...just pointing out that if you do try to pull logs for that reason, use more than just one particular log to make a point.

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Since you want people to pull up more than one log, you should know that the AST in question has exactly 2 logs uploaded for O1s, not really much to choose from. But hey fine, I'll do as you asked.
[GO to their fflogs for their best O2s - click on casts > click on their character name > on hte top right of the graph being shown click on "casts by source"]
[Not sure if I can link the log directly so I didnt]
This is their best o2s log they have uploaded. They died at 6:17 so say you dont look at their casts after 6:17. All the blank spaces you see are the moments the AST spent not casting anything. Those blank spaces could have been filled with DPS oriented spells. The point is that FFLOGS can show a lot more data than just numbers if you're willing to be patient.

So since more than one log has been looked at, have I made my point or would you like me to keep going?

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Your point's good and a valid one, but I still don't like the idea of some group of people uploading my data without my knowledge. Not merely because of what the stats might say (and even that would often be misrepresentative), but because it's really none of their darned business.

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I hate to break it to you, but as you are in a party with them that they created it is absolutely their business to know what your skill level is.

Gimme a bit...in Rabanastre...I'll reply soon

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

Or kick the person for difference in playstyles and replace them with someone else immediately as long as you dont say hey your dps is rubbish it has no link to parsing due to the nature that parsing is treated its safer to just kick instead of saying anything

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Or you could just stick to being supportive and trying to help someone get better instead of writing them off and being a general...well, thing.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Or you could just stick to being supportive and trying to help someone get better instead of writing them off and being a general...well, thing.

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People have to want to be helped in order to be helped. In this situation, OP doesn't want help improving his numbers. If he wanted that he would have asked or looked up any number of guides to improving tank DPS. Instead, he would rather complain on a forum and make his logs private.

Well, given I have nine clears of O1S and five of O2S and exactly two logs up apparently, that already shows me the site is incomplete. I wonder which two it recorded, my first two? If so, that explains a lot. As I noted before, definately not getting the full picture. Also, if FFLogs shows large gaps where I wasn't doing anything...yeah, definately not my later runs. XD

But, according to FFLogs, I have only two runs and am a terrible AST? Kinda...really makes my point for me.

If it makes y'all feel better, I had the exact opposite experience a couple of days ago, with a BLM who threw a hissy fit because I was going into Sword Oath on bosses in Stone Vigil of all places. Something about overworking the healer (who said nothing the whole dungeon, and no one died the whole way) and losing aggro (I didn't lose aggro on anything) for your pathetic DPS.

The best part is that I, uh, read the combat logs quite thoroughly afterwards, and I was doing more damage than the BLM. I didn't mention that to them, but I did mention that I'm a level 70 SCH/AST and that dropping tank mode is 100% normal and not a problem for healers unless the tank or healer is terribly geared, or the DPS is standing in bad and forcing a bunch of AOE healing. That didn't make them any happier for some reason.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

Since you want people to pull up more than one log, you should know that the AST in question has exactly 2 logs uploaded for O1s, not really much to choose from. But hey fine, I'll do as you asked.
[GO to their fflogs for their best O2s - click on casts > click on their character name > on hte top right of the graph being shown click on "casts by source"]
[Not sure if I can link the log directly so I didnt]
This is their best o2s log they have uploaded. They died at 6:17 so say you dont look at their casts after 6:17. All the blank spaces you see are the moments the AST spent not casting anything. Those blank spaces could have been filled with DPS oriented spells. The point is that FFLOGS can show a lot more data than just numbers if you're willing to be patient.

So since more than one log has been looked at, have I made my point or would you like me to keep going?

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Ugh...brutal Rabanastre run...

Anywho, again, I ...really didn't care about his logs. All I was saying was use more than one example if you were going to take the time to do some homework. A lot of us have been playing for a while...and sometimes, the most recent content isn't necessarily our best all the time. That's all. No, nobody has to do a full look at every log he may or may not have done...that's just ridiculous. As far as the poster goes...well...shoot, now I feel stupid for going out of my way to throw him a bone, only for him to just have...two logs for both fights. -_-

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Originally Posted by AikaThompson

If it makes y'all feel better, I had the exact opposite experience a couple of days ago, with a BLM who threw a hissy fit because I was going into Sword Oath on bosses in Stone Vigil of all places. Something about overworking the healer (who said nothing the whole dungeon, and no one died the whole way) and losing aggro (I didn't lose aggro on anything) for your pathetic DPS.

The best part is that I, uh, read the combat logs quite thoroughly afterwards, and I was doing more damage than the BLM. I didn't mention that to them, but I did mention that I'm a level 70 SCH/AST and that dropping tank mode is 100% normal and not a problem for healers unless the tank or healer is terribly geared, or the DPS is standing in bad and forcing a bunch of AOE healing. That didn't make them any happier for some reason.

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Prolly cause the blm doesn't like tank dps for any reason.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Well, given I have nine clears of O1S and five of O2S and exactly two logs up apparently, that already shows me the site is incomplete. I wonder which two it recorded, my first two? If so, that explains a lot. As I noted before, definately not getting the full picture. Also, if FFLogs shows large gaps where I wasn't doing anything...yeah, definately not my later runs. XD

But, according to FFLogs, I have only two runs and am a terrible AST? Kinda...really makes my point for me.

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Nope, the log in question was dated one week ago.

Their review wasn't entirely accurate though. You spent more globals healing than the WHM, and largely outhealed them (although there was no need to heal so much on O1S, I can understand wanting to play safe). Here's a rough breakdown:

Your GCDs spent healing: 58 / OGCDs spent healing: 8
WHM GCDs spent healing: 17 / OGCDs spent healing: 20 (23 if you count Benison)

One thing you can work on is your CPM/Active time. You spent almost 1/3 of the fight not executing any actions, whereas the WHM had 97% active time. Keeping your GCD rolling is really important to improve how you perform in this game.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

Did you want them to pick apart each and every log? That would be far less constructive and they did give them good general advice that hinders most people's performance. They had low GCD usage. Press more buttons.

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No, asking to pick apart each log would just be ridiculous. Nobody has time for that. But...had I realized that he only had four logs, two for each fight, posted there, I would not have bothered commenting on that.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

1. Why should someone have to analyze every single log this person has up?

2. Why would you not pick the most recent log, in which a person would in theory have the most knowledge of how a fight goes and thus would have less mistakes/ more improvement/ better gear than an older log?

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1) They don't - and nobody should be analyzing every log a person has up, unless it's one of the elite players and they're learning from that. Only thing I suggested was use more than one example.

2) You and I both know that's not the case 100% of the time. Most knowledge? Agreed. Less mistakes/more improvement/better gear...eh.... there's a reason we have a vent thread called 'Tales from the Duty Finder'.