Please scale the difficulty of Royal Menagerie

I had a bad RM run yesterday...

Things I saw:
People don't pay attention to glaringly obvious aoe markers on the floor, or are very, very slow to react
People don't pay attention to chat, and people explaining mechanics might as well be talking to a wall
People don't pay attention to what teammates are doing, and often miss out on mechanics where you can SEE everyone running in one specific direction
People don't pay attention to what kills them several times in a row
People actually have no idea what their rotations are. Im not talking minmaxing and not screwing up, I'm talking core rotation and what their skills even do

People don't pay attention... period.

At some point I marked myself with the circle, and asked people, SEVERAL TIMES, to follow me - which only about three people did.

It was the first time I bothered equipping the healer pull-in skill (I can't remember its name), but there's still little in can do for a team of 8 on a 150s cooldown.

A considerable number of people there were not even new...

Fight doesn't need a nerf, people just need to use their eyes and to not watch netflix midfight.

It's not harder then previous story elements. really. almost everything is related to dodging or easy to explain mechanics which are not new in general if you didn't skip the story up to lv60. and that you have to kill additional stuff like adds or the tail is explained to you during the hall of novice.
So as mentioned earlier, the problem is not the fight but the people.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

It's not harder then previous story elements. really.

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In slight defence of the OP, while its not any harder than previous story elements, it is more unforgiving. It assumes that people paid attention in XIV class and know how to follow basic mechanics that were on the story mode syllabus. There is nothing wrong with the royal menagerie, the fault lies with the lack of punishment earlier in the semester for not engaging with learning said mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Altena

The biggest issue in terms of difficulty is the progression. Royal Menagerie is quite a jump up from the previous instanced story fight. They need to have better difficulty progression to get people used to improving their skills.

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I, as well, don't disagree with you. The fact that it locks gear behind the trial is more than a bit silly.And it is definitely a step up from other trials to this point. But it's a final boss and gear and dps isn't what prevents people from clearing the fight. What prevents people from clearing it is a basic lack of understanding of mechanics. In this fight in particular, there are really only 3 things that should be difficult for players who are still unaccustomed to mechanics - the chain between players, the earth move, and akh morn (though all of those just rely on remembering previous trials). All of the other mechanics are things that people should use common sense on how to handle:

hellfire (how do I handle fire in the real world, probably something to do with the water on the ground)
judgment bolt (lightning and water don't mix)
tidal wave (probably is gonna push me like in real life, should get as close as I can to avoid getting knocked off)
aerial blast (wind is pushing me from the center, I should probably get as close as I can to avoid being pushed off)
big marker with arrows pointing in (people probably want to stand on top of me)
a crack on a panel (I probably shouldn't stand here unless I absolutely have to)

The game definitely needs a better tutorial, especially with players jumping through story and levels with tales of adventure potions (why isn't the hall of the novice required?) but sometimes the game doesn't need to hold players hands so that they can figure out the mechanics. Sometimes players just need to look within.

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

The player base wants difficulty (Super Savage) but also doesn't?

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As with ANYTHING on the forums, there is NOTHING in which the player base is in uniform agreement. I think it's pretty safe to say that the folks clamoring for nerfs are NOT the ones looking forward to Shinryu Suicide Edition.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Huh, I thought you could plan for where the tail lands to avoid things like this? The tail lands where the person with the green marker over their head stands. Granted I think Shinryu also takes a square away no matter what with his earth 100% aether skill, so that could count as a soft enrage, yeah.

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Well, that presumes that the group is savvy about the green marker, which mine clearly wasn't. Even with a group that knows how to position the tail, though, no matter how carefully you do so, you're eventually going to run into a situation where you no longer have three consecutive squares since Shinryu periodically changes positions on the battlefield, and his east/west tail becomes a north/south tail to make sure you can't just abuse the center square all the time (you're eventually going to lose the north, south, east, and west squares, even if tail lands center every time - and then you're screwed). Your group has to be pretty terrible (yet tenacious) to reach that point, however!

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

No, it is not.

Royal menagerie may be intensive in terms of the mechanics it offers, but that's where the difficulty stops. The fight itself only requires knowing how to position yourself and actively participate in the fight without waiting for the rest of the group to take you .

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Im not asking for a nerf , I am just simply agreeing with the op on the fact that , the royal is harder than some of the actual ex primals in their current state. Nobody is talkin about old ilvl or unsync, if you where to get garuda ex in mentor roulette or something id say it be easier sometimes with randoms than RM with randoms.

Laksimi ex is easier than the RM , the only thing that seperates the two is an enrage, I cant count on more than one hand how many vote abandons Ive had on RM cause its plenty.
I did it on my first try, wasnt something unbelievable and Im ready for the ex version but as some of of these primals are now ex, the royal is on the same level imo which may be tuff for some players that dont do such content.

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Originally Posted by Altena

The progression should start as early as when you're fending of ghosts in that level 10 or whatever quest in Lower La Noscea with Y'shtola. It shouldn't just suddenly hit you at the end of the 3rd expansion.

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What I find odd is they seem to have this difficulty curve in leveling dungeons, but it tempers off completely throughout all other forms of content. Granted, the only reason Bardem's Mettle and Doma Castle hurt is because people try doing them with old Shire gear. Still an improvement the facerolls that Susano and Lakshmi were.

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

If there was so many people who haven't cleared the Royal Menagerie you'd see it prevalently in the trial roulettes, and I haven't had it pop there but maybe once since I got to 70. You don't see it in PF that often either. I think you're grossly overestimating the "considerable" number of people who don't or can't clear the fight.

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This. I see Steps and Final Steps way more than Menagerie. That being said, gear prior to entry and it goes WAY easier. The problem when it first dropped is so many were still undergeared. I am assuming however it will get a nerf considering its being added to the ever dreadful minstrels ballad. Our whole FC minus one cleared it easily in the first run or two. the reason why the other person took a week to clear it, is he was bad at the game and just wanted a carry when there were none to be had at that point.... so you say, don't say git gud....but being proficient at the game leads you to easily clear most content.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What I find odd is they seem to have this difficulty curve in leveling dungeons, but it tempers off completely throughout all other forms of content. Granted, the only reason Bardem's Mettle and Doma Castle hurt is because people try doing them with old Shire gear. Still an improvement the facerolls that Susano and Lakshmi were.

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Yeah I absolutely agree here.

I mean the dungeon difficulty curve is actually pretty decent. I just finished leveling my first tank of SB and was actually surprised how hard the final boss in Abania hits, and the 2nd boss is not too far off that. This was the case with Heavensward as well, and the earlier "hard mode" dungeons in ARR such as Tam-Tara & WP.
It's like once they hit DR:Expert dungeons they just stop giving a damn about difficulty progression these days.

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Originally Posted by AlexRaines

I, as well, don't disagree with you. The fact that it locks gear behind the trial is more than a bit silly.And it is definitely a step up from other trials to this point. But it's a final boss and gear and dps isn't what prevents people from clearing the fight. What prevents people from clearing it is a basic lack of understanding of mechanics. In this fight in particular, there are really only 3 things that should be difficult for players who are still unaccustomed to mechanics - the chain between players, the earth move, and akh morn (though all of those just rely on remembering previous trials). All of the other mechanics are things that people should use common sense on how to handle:

hellfire (how do I handle fire in the real world, probably something to do with the water on the ground)
judgment bolt (lightning and water don't mix)
tidal wave (probably is gonna push me like in real life, should get as close as I can to avoid getting knocked off)
aerial blast (wind is pushing me from the center, I should probably get as close as I can to avoid being pushed off)
big marker with arrows pointing in (people probably want to stand on top of me)
a crack on a panel (I probably shouldn't stand here unless I absolutely have to)

The game definitely needs a better tutorial, especially with players jumping through story and levels with tales of adventure potions (why isn't the hall of the novice required?) but sometimes the game doesn't need to hold players hands so that they can figure out the mechanics. Sometimes players just need to look within.

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Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the fight at all. I am simply saying that there is no lead up to it. The difficulty of content people are required to complete beforehand is quite literally faceroll, and it just doesn't really prepare them for that fight.
I am not talking about simple gear check or "not knowing your class" issues like you mentioned - I am talking about mechanics ie. staying alive.

A vet that has done all of the dungeons, 24 man raids, and the primals will know the mechanics as they show up.. However a lot of that content is side content, and someone who is catching up to the game now may have some difficulty in recognizing the mechanics.

I mean my point here is that I understand why some people find it difficult, and a big part of the blame in my eyes, is the lack of a difficulty curve that prepares you for it.

No, it's not a difficult fight, subjectively, compared to a lot of the other content in the game. However for a new comer who is just chipping through the entire story and catching up will likely be seeing a lot of those mechanics for the first time.

Should it be nerfed? Absolutely not. Should there be more fights that progressively get harder through the story so that it prepares people for it? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What I find odd is they seem to have this difficulty curve in leveling dungeons, but it tempers off completely throughout all other forms of content. Granted, the only reason Bardem's Mettle and Doma Castle hurt is because people try doing them with old Shire gear. Still an improvement the facerolls that Susano and Lakshmi were.

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Doing them in all augmented Shire gear isn't that bad. It depends on how good/bad your RNG is(I just finished leveling my BRD on the weekend...was in augmented Shire all the way to 70 - except boots which were Bardam, at 69). The player's skill affects it more than the gear. Yes, the gear does make it so you can deal/take more damage, but the skill will prevent you from eating stuff you shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Doing them in all augmented Shire gear isn't that bad. It depends on how good/bad your RNG is(I just finished leveling my BRD on the weekend...was in augmented Shire all the way to 70 - except boots which were Bardam, at 69). The player's skill affects it more than the gear. Yes, the gear does make it so you can deal/take more damage, but the skill will prevent you from eating stuff you shouldn't.

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Honestly, levelling dungeons is where the difficulty is in this game mostly because you're generally doing it with a lower iLvl than what the dungeon gives you.

Bardam isn't that horrible in full Aug'd shire - however if I am healing a tank in Aug'd shire in Doma, I will want to kill myself. It's pretty horrible.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Doing them in all augmented Shire gear isn't that bad. It depends on how good/bad your RNG is(I just finished leveling my BRD on the weekend...was in augmented Shire all the way to 70 - except boots which were Bardam, at 69). The player's skill affects it more than the gear. Yes, the gear does make it so you can deal/take more damage, but the skill will prevent you from eating stuff you shouldn't.

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You got away with this because you were a ranged DPS. However by not taking the time to gear properly you made the duty take longer due to lack of damage output. Undergear like that as a tank or healer its far more noticeable.

It is around Niddhog story trial level, back in time where he was still fresh.
do dmg, aware mechanics and dodge AoE.
It is more a "let's see if you remember this mechanic" trial, because all mechanics already showed up in older normal contents.

I'm not going to say it needs a nerf, but at the same time I can understand why some people want it nerf. and the only reason I say that is it's real easy to tell people to find friends or make a PF when you have friends and can easily que for it. But half the time noone joins a PF for it or noone wants to do it. Hell I've seen more people leave the second it pops up in que leading to some new players never being able to finish the story and therefor locked out of endgame. Like I said I am not saying it needs a nerf, but one person can't do this one alone, and for that fact I'm not going to jump down people's neck telling them to " get good" when they can't even get groups for it in the first place. It's not always " OMFG YOU'RE BAD" more so then " OMG I can't get a group to do this". Hell this is in relation to alot of the game. Telling someone to wait til 5.0 is pointless also cause as a new player myself.. I can't get any of the 24 mans done without waiting for hours. :c I dunno.. maybe I'm just projecting at this point, but it seems people are forgetting that not everyone has friends who will help them in all content. I know my friends won't help me get in the 24 mans cause when I joined they had done it all ready and see no point to doing them. I think it's kindof like that now with RM.

It took me 15 redos for Menagerie; the first time I queued in it was voted abandon as we only had ten minutes left. It's reminiscent of Chrysalis back when we first got to it in our stories. As a healer, Chrysalis was cry-worthy. It was SO hard and it took us just as many tries to defeat it as it took us Menagerie for SB, but each time we got a little better and made more progress.

I've never done an ex-primal. Always been too timid to do it as I don't have confidence in my abilities. However, the more I played that trial the more fun I had. I think the new trials in general have given me more confidence as a healer/player. I get that it's not the same for everyone, but... It's fun in it's difficulty. It's just not a trial to do when you're dead-ass tired or half-awake or don't have much time to spare. And, honestly, after all the things we've done to get to this point in the story, one is more likely to be adept at their class than not.

Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with @frizze.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It is around Niddhog story trial level, back in time where he was still fresh.
do dmg, aware mechanics and dodge AoE.
It is more a "let's see if you remember this mechanic" trial, because all mechanics already showed up in older normal contents.

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I don't think the issue is that it uses old mechanics. It's that it uses a ton of those old mechanics in one fight.

Most fights besides raids are about 1-3 mechanics. So unless you did those primals recently, the memory might be put to the test.

Shinryu is perfectly tuned. People just need to git gud.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Actually they did nerf Steps unfortunately.

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The main problem with steps was the fact it took best part of an eternity to wipe even when you knew you'd failed miserably. Even if the whole party was dead you still had to sit for that dragon to make it to the end....

The fight wasn't hard it was just that crap. O cleared steps with 6 on it's second day 2. Polly still got the victory screenshot buried somewhere

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I don't think the issue is that it uses old mechanics. It's that it uses a ton of those old mechanics in one fight.

Most fights besides raids are about 1-3 mechanics. So unless you did those primals recently, the memory might be put to the test.

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Maybe so, but most of the mechanics are very straightforward. Even if you didn't look at a guide beforehand or ask for pointers from your group, you should be able to work out the vast majority of the mechanics after the first time you see them.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I hate how similar these names are. The original Steps of Fate was nerfed but Final (The Nidhogg fight) was never nerfed.

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Ohhhh woops I missed the word "Final" in there... /facepalm.. Thanks for the correction.

I practically never refer a Trial by its duty name.. Always use boss names so forgot what the Niddy trial was even called..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The main problem with steps was the fact it took best part of an eternity to wipe even when you knew you'd failed miserably. Even if the whole party was dead you still had to sit for that dragon to make it to the end....

The fight wasn't hard it was just that crap. O cleared steps with 6 on it's second day 2. Polly still got the victory screenshot buried somewhere

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Well if I am being honest, I went in there and 1-shot it with my FC, and I never really bother with roulettes aside from DR:Ex...
So I have done Steps (dragon running to wall fight) maybe 5 times at most? I have to take your word on it.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

I'm not going to say it needs a nerf, but at the same time I can understand why some people want it nerf. and the only reason I say that is it's real easy to tell people to find friends or make a PF when you have friends and

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Exactly half the people on the forums are delusional and think everyone plays the game like them. You can have tons of friends in the game doesnt mean they will run content with you, trust me I know this because I live in the pf and have 500 people in my fc and we have one raid group in the whole fc. I get so annoyed by oh you can just bring some friends, most people like me just do most of the game by themselves. And if your lucky you will get people to run some roulettes are leveling dungeons with you and thats about where it ends.

If this thread was posted closer to launch, I\\\\\\'d be slightly more inclined to agree with the OP, but now most players (casuals and hard core elites alike) are now overgeared to the point that unless you\\\\\\'re in a party with like 5+ first timers, you\\\\\\'re more than likely to one shot the fight https://i.imgflip.com/1uxcmo.jpg

I think the hard part of Royal Menagerie imo is the players. If you've got a team full of bads, it's always gonna go south.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Where does it stop. SE gives an inch, playerbase asks for a mile next time. They should never had touched Steps of Faith. Its an end boss. Its supposed to be hard. Deal with it.

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It's an MMO. There's no such thing as an end boss, it just keeps going.

The vote abandon thing is annoying. It shouldn't end the fight for me if I don't want to leave. First try people abandoned after 1 wipe.
I cleared it on 2nd try with only 1 wipe after I understood the button spamming ATE (Note to people explaining it, it's different from A11/s because you have to time it there).

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Originally Posted by FedoraTheExplorer

I think the hard part of Royal Menagerie imo is the players. If you've got a team full of bads, it's always gonna go south.

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Depending on who's bad and what they do, you could potentially have one bad player sink the fight. Recently saw and offtank nearly sink the fight single handedly.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

It's an MMO. There's no such thing as an end boss, it just keeps going.

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It's the end boss for the first part of Stormblood and a reference to a recurring superboss throughout the final fantasy series. There is no reason it should be a joke to clear like Thordan was.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Lets face facts: Royal Menagerie, in terms of difficulty, easily is on the level of some Ex Primals.

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Nope. Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

The thing though is: Many people never do Ex Primals. They have no interest in that, they don't have the time to practice their FFXIV job endlessly, they have, you know, lives.

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While I do not know the data of people succeeding at primals, I'd say it's a lot higher than you think. And even if they don't complete them, many at least attempt. And practice your job endlessly? What does that even mean? Most classes have easy rotations. We're not like other MMOs where you can customize your class. There are literal guides out there they all you would have to do is take an hour and learn from. It sounds to me your friends are lazy and just want excuses as to why they cannot play their class correctly.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Yeah, I can hear already all you really expert players say "but it's not hard, leave it as it is" and "but the finale of the MSQ should be hard", just as "but once you get better gear in a patch or two everyone can faceroll it" or even the atrocious "git gud".

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Ya, because get better is THE answer to your problem. Put a little effort into your class, put a little effort into learning the fight, and practice the fight. It is not atrocious to demand effort in a video game. A little difficulty is perceived as fun and just because your friends cannot automatically face roll this game, does not mean things need to be catered to their needs. Hell, I once helped a 60 year old grandma that did not know how to play her class or pve and only craft through some of the toughest things in HW. She never complained, she just kept trying and did not give up. A lesson people like yourself should learn.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

But no. There is a considerable part of the player base who MASSIVELY struggles with Menagerie, and that is even without disabilities or health issues or latency coming into play, that make some players UNABLE to ever beat something of that difficulty, period. And telling people to wait until they get better gear, which is difficult to get if you don't finish MSQ, also not okay.

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No one is saying wait for better gear. In fact, square literally did cater to you guys by allowing all classes to automatically gear up to i290 for the fight. And for those who have disabilities or health issues. See what I said above about practice, practice, practice because that is literally the key to your success. Maybe instead of, I dunno complaining that things are too hard, you should be instead encouraging them to keep trying and telling them that they are getting better when there is progress and improving the mood. I bet you all just get upset as soon as things go awry thus hampering your gameplay. This is an attitude that is on you, not the game.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

People who play FFXIV only casually (the majority, and that.is.okay) also deserve to enjoy the MSQ instead of having this massive source of stress and frustration at the end of the story line.

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I'm a casual player. I have almost everything cleared by practicing (shocker, I know) a few hours of my day on the content I wish to clear. I also have taken the time to learn multiple classes in and out which did not take up most of my time whatsoever. And this is a casual player.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Don't get me wrong here, I managed Menagerie just fine, but the amount of wipes I see in there is ridiculous. And I know people who due to health issues are all but kept from finishing MSQ thanks to this. Not.Okay.

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Actually, it is perfectly okay. This is a video game and there are challenges that need to be over come. Just because 1% (being generous, its prolly lower) have a disability hampering them from completing MSQ does not mean that the devs need to cater to that 1%. In fact they shouldn't. Having one dead dps in RM is not a death sentence like an ex primal, which is why its nowhere near an ex primal's difficulty. Hell, one dead healer or tank is not an automatic death sentence for the fight. Keep practicing or keep trying until you find that carry. Let the 99% have their nice toys.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Therefore I think it would be good to tune down Royal Menagerie for MSQ, and keep the current difficulty as a "Hard Mode" option, maybe even to chose from "normal" and "hard mode" right away as you enter it the first time to finish your MSQ. That way those who want a challenge to finish the story of SB can have that, and all the players who would struggle with hard mode (or unable to finish it at all) can enjoy the end of the MSQ without stressing out or quitting out of sheer frustration.

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No. Because future players deserve to feel the fight as it was intended. Nothing is worse than getting an end boss like Thordan Normal. Nothing is worse than completing a story arc and facing a villain and just bulldozing through him like it didn't matter. I'd argue that Zenos would be a lot more disappointing than Thordan if you nerfed him because he has all this build up as an interesting, bad ass villain. And you are selfish enough to want to nerf him or have a normal mode of him. No. Just no.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Exactly half the people on the forums are delusional and think everyone plays the game like them. You can have tons of friends in the game doesnt mean they will run content with you, trust me I know this because I live in the pf and have 500 people in my fc and we have one raid group in the whole fc. I get so annoyed by oh you can just bring some friends, most people like me just do most of the game by themselves. And if your lucky you will get people to run some roulettes are leveling dungeons with you and thats about where it ends.

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No offense but... you need better friends. With that many people in your FC, it shouldn't be difficult grabbing seven for fifteen minutes. I know a handful of FCs on mostly an acquaintance basis yet they'll run stuff whenever possible. I also pugged Menagerie and got through it just fine after the first party Vote Abandon. Making the content faceroll easy will only promote more bad players. That is the whole problem with a lot of this game's content. It asks very little from the playerbase, thus providing no incentive beyond pressing 1-2-3.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

snip

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I would say both Party Finder not filling and Duty Finder being a bust are just bad luck usually. That being said, you could also try posting here. We're on the same data center. I'll run you through whatever if you're still stuck. :)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No offense but... you need better friends. With that many people in your FC, it shouldn't be difficult grabbing seven for fifteen minutes. I know a handful of FCs on mostly an acquaintance basis yet they'll run stuff whenever )

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I was meaning more stuff like raids and trails etc, I mean of course one or two people will be willing to do a trail roullete with you are something like this. But gettin a full group to do rm would prob be pretty hard actually to me for most people. I mean I did it with two people I knew and cleared. But Ive been back sense and ill say more groups have vote abandoned or people have left than actually doing the whole duty. Its not a hard fight at all but for some it could be, and I still beleive it is more complex than some of the ex primals as they are now.

And this is the msq , so while I dont ask for a nerf personally , but if someone has no desire to do primals , or raids when the content is current. And are more into crafting, and social stuff then I could see how the RM would be a problem for people like this. I mean come on we still have a portion of the playerbase that still thinks AV is a challenge after doing it several times over now. I mean SE said they want nerf it but its been several threads asking for it so Im gona figure that at some point they will nerf it, because honestly to me its more of a challenge than one of our current ex primals lakismi some disagree ive had more fail groups in RM than lakisimi ex.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I would say both Party Finder not filling and Duty Finder being a bust are just bad luck usually. That being said, you could also try posting here. We're on the same data center. I'll run you through whatever if you're still stuck. :)

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I might try that actualy.. I never thought to ask on the fourms so thanks for that idea. And just to put it out there, I don't want it nerfed. Even I got RM done within the first week or so. I was only mentioning what I said as I can see the other side. But yeah, asking for a Dun run on the forums might be a good idea. Why have I not thought about that.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

In slight defence of the OP, while its not any harder than previous story elements, it is more unforgiving. It assumes that people paid attention in XIV class and know how to follow basic mechanics that were on the story mode syllabus. There is nothing wrong with the royal menagerie, the fault lies with the lack of punishment earlier in the semester for not engaging with learning said mechanics.

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I'm sorry, but unforgiving would be being unable to rez people after them falling off, like in Leviathan.
(This is the one thing that made Sophex really easy, tbh. Derp and fall off? No problem!)
This fight is actually pretty forgiving of screw ups, and has few dps checks (protostar is very easy if you have semi awake dps , and falling platforms CAN kill you... if you're really, REALLY slow).

It really boils down to people being used to not following mechanics, mindlessly hitting the boss and STILL coming out victorious - which is not something you can do with this fight.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

It's the end boss for the first part of Stormblood and a reference to a recurring superboss throughout the final fantasy series. There is no reason it should be a joke to clear like Thordan was.

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There's no reason for a superboss to be a joke, but there's also no reason to lock the basic endgame gearing grind behind a superboss. It was a mistake to have this boss at this time in the story. Give it 12 - 18 months to introduce an epic fight like Final Steps of Faith.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

It was a mistake

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As evidenced by the fact that the devs have no intention of adjusting the difficulty, I think it is safe to say that it was not, in fact, a mistake.

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Originally Posted by missybee

As evidenced by the fact that the devs have no intention of adjusting the difficulty, I think it is safe to say that it was not, in fact, a mistake.

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Considering that there's some level of subjectivity in whether something is a mistake or not at times, the devs having no intention to change it does not mean it wasn't a mistake. A superboss is not a story boss, it's something above and beyond. Placing this traditional superboss as a story boss is wasted potential.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Considering that there's some level of subjectivity in whether something is a mistake or not at times, the devs having no intention to change it does not mean it wasn't a mistake. A superboss is not a story boss, it's something above and beyond. Placing this traditional superboss as a story boss is wasted potential.

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Superboss? Shinryu pales in comparison to the likes of Sephirot, Thordan, Titan, Ifrit or just about every EX fight, who themselves don't even scratch Living Liquid or Brute Justice Savage-- the actual "superbosses" this game offers. He's slightly above average in a MSQ that requires little more than a pulse for half its content. Royal Menagerie only has "pay attention" checks. Calling it a superboss is absolutely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Considering that there's some level of subjectivity in whether something is a mistake or not at times, the devs having no intention to change it does not mean it wasn't a mistake. A superboss is not a story boss, it's something above and beyond. Placing this traditional superboss as a story boss is wasted potential.

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The fact that they think it is fine as-is would suggest to me that they don't see it as a mistake, but I mean... /shruuuuuug?

But yeah, I don't view Shinryu as any harder than Final Steps or even the Chrysalis upon their respective releases. Wipe once, realize where you flubbed up, and then proceed to win because the fight is a non-issue.

Mind, this is going in blind. I tend to avoid "spoiling" MSQ fights as they are content that everyone should be able to beat (yes, including RM).

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

I might try that actualy.. I never thought to ask on the fourms so thanks for that idea. And just to put it out there, I don't want it nerfed. Even I got RM done within the first week or so. I was only mentioning what I said as I can see the other side. But yeah, asking for a Dun run on the forums might be a good idea. Why have I not thought about that.

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Same! I miss doing Dun and the rest when I was running them constantly for WT. 24 man raid roulette has been hinted, and cross-server friends lists, too! We Aether buddies have to stick together :D

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Considering that there's some level of subjectivity in whether something is a mistake or not at times, the devs having no intention to change it does not mean it wasn't a mistake. A superboss is not a story boss, it's something above and beyond. Placing this traditional superboss as a story boss is wasted potential.

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If you really think that Shinryu is a superboss i invite you to do this.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Sephirot, Thordan, Titan, Ifrit or just about every EX fight, who themselves don't even scratch Living Liquid or Brute Justice Savage-- the actual "superbosses" this game offers. He's slightly above average in a MSQ that requires little more than a pulse for half its content. Royal Menagerie only has "pay attention" checks.

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Also.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Calling it a superboss is absolutely ridiculous.

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Really, is it so dificult to play a game like it is intended and not to ask to nerf everything at the first wipe? Is it so dificult to learn the very basic mechanics of the class you are playing and pay attention to the surroundings of a fight? It's still grinding my gears to play on Trial Roulette the Steps of Faith only to find that everyone is fighting mindlessly with no consequences and winning anyway while ignoring the very basic mechanic of cooperation -In a MMO where you play with a TEAM!-.

Do you seriously want a game that is click to win?

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

It really boils down to people being used to not following mechanics, mindlessly hitting the boss and STILL coming out victorious - which is not something you can do with this fight.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentErgo

Whatever happened to striving to be a better player instead of trying to get content nerfed to your current skill level?

This kind of mindset is ruining mmos in general.

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Whatever happened to striving to be a better player instead of trying to get content nerfed to your current skill level?

This kind of mindset is ruining mmos in general.