My guess is that he finds the attitude of "Anyone who isn't doing perfectly should be called out and shamed and probably kicked from duty" repulsive as I do and is getting a bit frustrated with it, despite the fact I strive to do as best as possible, I think the people who are raring to call out and shame others for their poor performance are the biggest obstacle to actual community improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
Positive reinforcement always works better.
-
08-18-2017, 03:14 AMSylvina
-
08-18-2017, 04:09 AMAlexionSkylarkSomething along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
I'll just add that some people (actually a lot of people) are casual in a level that they do not read websites, do not look up rotation guides, do not know what the stat weights for their class is, do not know and do not read news about the game. They just want to log in, have some fun doing a dungeon, log out, and not give a single second of thought towards the game until they feel like logging in again. And while they are logged in, they want to RELAX mashing some buttons and seeing stuff go down. If they could perform their rotations by pressing a single button successfully, they would. And they would even prefer it that way, to be honest.
And there's nothing wrong with that. This particular content is tuned in a way that it's clearable even by those standards. So THOSE people can also experience the game and have fun with it. By holding those people to a higher standard than they are willing to commit (even that standard being SO minimum and easy FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW), in practice, you're shunning those people from the game. You're sending them away. They will NOT trouble themselves, that's not wh they started playing it in the first place. They'll simply freeze their accounts and go play something else that suits them better.
But that's not what the devs intend. They want their game to be accesible and played by ALL kinds of players, INCLUDING those uber-casual ones. It's hard to please everyone, but they try to achieve that in a way that's INDEED fair to everybody: they provide way for every type of player to enjoy the game. Now, you're the one going in the kindergartener's sandbox and demanding that they try to build castles instead of just lumping sand together in no specific format. Because YOU (you as in everyone trying to apply that logic to roulettes) find lumps of sand boring, but they don't. The valid options here are either resigning to play with the 3-year olds at their pace, or resign to your own sandbox of the bigger kids (going premade). Trying to force the babies to play in the way you find fun is not a valid alternative. -
08-18-2017, 06:42 AMSaitoHikari
Very well, then. This thread is starting to parallel an actual in-game scenario: not practical/worth the time to debate, since everyone's pretty much entrenched as usual. I'd hope certain people here don't end up turning around and talking about the content release cycle negatively in turn, though. Because my concern isn't really so much about each person's individual performance, as it is the community being judged as a whole in terms of what the developers look at when it comes to designing new content.
Then again, I suppose the developers don't listen to the NA side for anything beyond cosmetics, regardless. That simply isn't going to change at this rate, unless something happens that directly threatens sub numbers, like cross-world PF being created in response to the mass exodus from smaller servers within the NA datacenters.
(I watched my previous MMO get destroyed when the developers only listened to the hardcore elitist raiders and kept doubling down on it. I feel FFXIV is reaching a tipping point where it's in danger of falling to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Like it or not, in every MMO, a 'casual' and 'hardcore' community exists. Not addressing the concerns of one side by keeping a certain status quo for too long can result in grave long-term consequences for the community as a whole. And as far as I've observed, the balance has been shifting too far towards 'casual', and the community seems okay with it.
Then again, this probably sounds like terrible incomprehensible rambling at this point, so... *shrugs*) -
08-18-2017, 06:50 AMAlexionSkylarkWhat do you mean, exactly? I don't have anything against the content release cycle. I actually believe it's on point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
And the devs listen to the western side of the playerbase more than you may think. The bump up in difficulty in Gordias, AND the bump DOWN on Midas were actually much more a product of how the western audience reacted to it than the eastern (taking into account # of clears and general response). Yoshi=said so in multiple live letters. -
08-18-2017, 07:25 AMVargasVermillion
It's actually a bad players dream come true in general. This game doesn't punish mistakes enough or ask you to go beyond basic understanding save for the hardest content. The issue is the difficulty never scales in this game. It starts easy and gets a little harder until 50 than just sets a basic bar and resets it every expansion so players who never had to improve never do so.
-
08-18-2017, 08:10 AMRichardButteLet's also not ignore the fact that slow DPS make that healer and tank take longer to get back into the queue so they can't start a run for the next set of two DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
Crappy DPS are also literally screwing over other DPS.
There's nothing "mid" or "hardcore" about not sucking at the role you signed up for.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
The entire point of this thread is that healers and tanks don't get to queue up for a dungeon, cause the party to wipe repeatedly, and then say "lol it's just DF guyz! lighten up!" without being kicked.
Can you ACTUALLY not see the hypocrisy in this situation or are you just trolling at this point?
Doing more damage than at least the tank ≠ "doing perfectly".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
Look, no one is holding tanks or healers to world-first savage static standards, but they ARE being held to some standards, which is more than DPS are being held to right now.
As long as DPS players are above the tank and healer, there shouldn't be any grounds for complaint, just like if no one dies, there shouldn't be any grounds for complaint for the healer.
Even a parsing list that shows where people are in damage done without showing actual numbers would be fine for this.
...Except that half the kids are telling the other half of the kids that they do indeed need to build castles while the first half sits there drooling on themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
Why is it okay with you that half of these kids get chastised while the other half don't? -
08-18-2017, 08:10 AMvp_cmcI think, that single player games suite these people needs way much better, than MMORPG. In MMO's I'm not ok with these people fun if they make it at expense of my fun. Never forget that there are (usually) people who play these characters, so maybe 1 person fun is not more important then 3 (or 7) others.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
-
08-18-2017, 08:17 AMZfz
There was a suggestion somewhere recently about a form of feedback for dps, similar to how rhythm games give the player feedback by accumulating "fever points" and going into "fever mode". You know you're performing properly when you see those "EXCELLENT" prompts and when you go into fever mode.
Something similar can be implemented. Give feedback via the flying text or sound effect (similar to how gathering gets a more pronounced sound effect when getting HQ) when the player is getting their positionals right. Reward individual players with a persistent bonus ("fever mode") throughout the dungeon after completing a certain number of the job's main comboes properly, or after making use of core abilities a number of times. Each time a player complete a duty while in fever mode, a point is awarded towards an achievement that grants a mount or a title.
I think it's pretty much a settled issue that SE does not want the possible abuse that comes with parsers. Instead of looking for ways to call people out, perhaps it's more constructive to look at ways to let people improve naturally by playing the game. -
08-18-2017, 08:27 AMRichardButteThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by vp_cmc
Why are DPS players delicate little flowers who deserve to have every allowance made for them, but the healers and tanks who make their dungeon runs possible aren't people but props who are there to help these terrible DPS players have fun...? -
08-18-2017, 09:25 AMJijifliI remember going into Sirensong Sea (The 61 dungeon) with a Samurai as the other dps, but he was in full 130 gear. He did no damage and died in every single mechanic, such as the stack mechanic, even if everyone was in it with them to split the damage. They clearly went in unprepared and were of very little help, yet the tank and healer in the party proceeded to praise them for their efforts, while ignoring me (on ninja) trying to push through as hard as I can to make up for the lack of help.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
I wouldn't be surprised if people play more poorly because they get praise for "effort" during it, but none when they actually do something correct. -
08-18-2017, 09:43 AMPenthea
I was thinking about this thread earlier today and I came to the conclusion that an in-game parser should only be available to fully premade groups to minimise abusing it.
Friends and fc mates are less likely to be horrible about it with one another, and DF groups won't be able to use it as a platform to be needlessly nitpicky in content that doesn't require exceptional skill. It would also mean any savage/ex groups would have access to a parser, which is quite frankly the only content where being average is often not good enough so having a parser would actually be useful.
That being said I'm against it altogether for numerous reasons, but in my opinion the above would be the least unpleasant/damaging/annoying way of implementing it.
Anyone who wants to argue that it's necessary in DF content needs to calm the hell down. It really is not. -
08-18-2017, 10:20 AMSylvinaI don't think there's any danger of that given we still have Savage difficulty like O3s and O4s and theres a fight being planned which is supposedly going to be even more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
-
08-18-2017, 10:36 AMRichardButteEven "Super Ultra Mega Savage Fighter 3 Turbo" isn't going to change anything about how the DF functions, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
It's the mentality that it's okay for a DPS player to be hot garbage at their role that needs to DIAF, and no amount of endgame raiding will change that.
It's not technically necessary in DF content to not try to tank while black-out drunk, but people would SURE appreciate tanks NOT doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
A better solution would be to have a ranking that just shows who's doing the most damage from top to bottom without showing actual numbers. As long as you're ahead of the tank and healer, you're fine (and no, the threat meter doesn't do this). -
08-18-2017, 11:05 AMShurrikhanThis. Admittedly, even that 200 to 300 (some 8% to 5%) difference can be entertaining to try to bridge for players who are used to being engaged with the mechanics able to make those differences. That's not the majority of players, though, and I'm not saying that it should be. But knowing the basics of one's toolkit is the primary reason by which toolkits can be interesting, and by which fights can seem manipulable. Both the discipline and effort required to improve can be reduced; their presence is necessary, but there is no set minimum—it'll vary from person to person based on their awareness, analytical skills, memory, and perhaps most importantly the tools at their disposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
No, the community has no obligation to improve, so long as they do not care how their own prospects are limited, and feel no invasive guilt at having consciously slowed others down.
That is hypocritical. The idea is inclusiveness, but that shouldn't be taken as a meeting only the lowest common denominator. The highest, even, would be starting point; the goal is the average, the largest possible body of people feeling well engaged (where dependent largely upon inclusion). Yes, there is a troll population. There is also a population for which placing mathematical optimization upon a toolkit makes it somehow feel less inherently interesting. But these parts do not make up the whole of unwilling learners. It is entirely worthwhile, for that very reason among others, for the game's design to try to mitigate that community gap by encouraging engagement at more than a surface/aesthetic level. And the best ways to approach this are through need and access, a more consistent and ever-demanding (within reason) difficulty curve and the tools to convenience and make something enjoyable out of self-improvement.Now, you can argue that guilt is unwarranted; as you said, anyone who signs up for a random run is signing up to play with whoever comes, whatever their skills and preferences. But the same applies to the player who would actively neglects any general rhyme or reason to his or her gameplay; s/he has signed up to play with anyone, the majority of which will to greater degree care about good play. Why are the three required to oblige the fourth's preferences, but the fourth free from any obligation to meet the other three mid-way?
-
08-18-2017, 12:10 PMSylvinaActually while filling in as tank for a raid static today they suggested I get drunk to deal with being nervous lol. I didn't because my doctor said no drinking.Quote:
It's not technically necessary in DF content to not try to tank while black-out drunk, but people would SURE appreciate tanks NOT doing that.
-
08-18-2017, 04:28 PMKazrahI helped with a study over a decade ago in WoW to understand how drinking affects tanking ability, testing both veteran and noobie tanks in dungeon and raid circumstances and made a point-based system based on various elements of tanking style. The main thing we learned from that study was that the increased levels of apathy caused from drinking (we called them "the f**k-its" at the time) improved tanking ability based on the parameters that were set by up to 30%, with the greatest effect on people who had just picked up tanking and the least effect on seasoned tank players who already had a naturally-developed dose of "the f**k-its".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
Of course for all tank players involved, performance went downhill once they got plastered enough to the point of not being able to see their screen. -
08-18-2017, 05:25 PMSaitoHikariDo you have a link to this study? Because this sounds like it would be a hilarious read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
-
08-18-2017, 05:46 PMGallus
OP did it really take you 2 expansions to notice that? xD
-
08-18-2017, 06:33 PMPentheaIn my opinion this is not good. It would falsely inflate or deflate egos. Someone could be like "wow I'm first in dps!" but little do they know they're only 1% ahead of both the tank and other dps. Or on the flip side someone being upset that they're always second and they have no clue how close their dps is to whoever is first. Or even someone always being second thinking it's okay for them to be second because they're a dps and they have no idea that their dps is barely over the tank, which is actually bad at high lvl.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
Either have a proper parser or have none. Rankings with zero information attached are basically useless because they can too easily give a very false impression of performance. -
08-18-2017, 07:54 PMKazrahSadly it's been so long that I forgot who kept the notes for it. It wasn't that much of an official study either in that it started with making fun of one guy in a raid who brought it up when he kept saying "tanked tanking" and then it just kinda snowballed from there into a "hey, let's see what happens" kind of moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
I do remember having a dozen people tested though: the three tanks we had in our raid group (it was a BC thing), three people that tanked up to heroic dungeon level on either an alt or offspec, three people that were in the process of leveling their first tank, and three people that had never played a tank before. The guild leader bought and sent every test player their own bottle of tequila for the experiment, and after we did the tests for the three raid tanks, the other testers were given a choice of what tank they wanted to use for the experiment, and the raid tanks agreed to let the other testers borrow their accounts for the experiment (we knew it was ToS violation, but we felt our experiment was more important). Each tank did up to five runs of The Mechanaar, with first run being sober and then taking a shot of tequila at the start of the next run (hence why I said "up to five runs"). With each run, we'd add and subtract points based on things like how they pulled mobs, how much they pulled, how often they asked for CC and so on, tallying final scores at the end of each run.
Since I was too young to drink at that time and I played a DPS spec whose damage output was nearly irrelevant, I was one of the scorekeepers, meaning I basically spent hours following people through the same dungeon as they became progressively more hammered throughout the night, which was nearly as entertaining as it sounds. There were two major takeaways from it: 1) the less experienced you were, the more alcohol improved tanking ability, and 2) one of our raid tanks might've been consistently drunk for every single raid night. -
08-18-2017, 08:43 PMLalaRuThat means, you will allow only exp people using DF.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGladius
One of the things I like when playing, is my ability to figure out mechanics. I am not one of the ones that goes on youtube or websites to understand a fight because the fun of a game, at least to me, is also figuring the mechanics, it is also part of the fun the game provides.
I'm not in world-first kill groups because I've now only casual time for play, but this does not means I have today to give up my fun because you want the fastest kill in a PUG. For that kind of expertise there is your fc, your friends, your static, but not the duty finder. -
08-18-2017, 08:49 PMPaladinleedsPlease, please, PLEASE, try and get a hold of this study. I want to see the results from it. I want to read this, and I hate reading studies. But this just sounds like it'd be one hilarious read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
-
08-18-2017, 10:48 PMSnow_PrincessIf you read his other threads, I am pretty sure he is a new player, joined very end of HW or a week or so after SB (after early release)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallus
This is correct, it can give a false positive, Oh look I am doing so much more then the other dps, neglecting the fact said DPS is in a mix of i130-i200 gear in different slots in a 61 DF. The idea the enmity bars do not give any indication is also false. Unless the person is SMN or using enmity reducing abilities, there is not a lot of them, the enmity bars do give a good indication. The only other time I seen them off is when 2 dps are SUPER CLOSE 0-2% and they "switch off" a lot because they are so close, the enmity bars would favor fast hitters like MNK/ drg/ melee in general then say blm. The emitiy bar will favor MNK or DRG a bit (assuming the drg does not use elusive jump) appearing a bit higher then the BLM despite the BLM having slightly more DPS. The difference is so tiny though it is pretty much negligible and you can pretty much say the 2 have the same DPS since the bars would be nearly equal anyway. (the enmity bars would appear the same length, just one will have a "2" and the other would have a "3")Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
Knowing you do more then someone else is such a farce I can't even.. it is more like knowing how you do the most out of your rotation for a given fight. If you can manage to kill stuff fast, and research rotations, you should know you are doing well regardless. If you play the game a lot, you can feel how fast stuff should die. I pretty much know, if we are talking about 4 man, if I am doing more or less then the other person just based what is going on. The proof that I do get it right every time is from watching a steam of it later who happens to have a parser.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...true.../page11
Ill give you an example on how I lightly "called" out someone the other day for low DPS. I noticed we had low DPS on the first pull, but the thing was it was deemed what I find acceptable, in expert. It was not super gimp, but on the lower end of things. I was not suffering too bad when it came to needing to heal too much so I did not say anything. Even without checking I suspected it was the BRD in our group but I was not exmaing them closely so I did not know for sure at that point on first pull. All that mattered was me knowing the dps was on the lower end and I may need do extra CD use (on SCH) to deal with it.
Well on one pull after the second boss the lack of DPS end up mattering. It was not even a full mega pull like I seen at times (2/3) of it and yet I was spent all my CDs and despite that, I could not keep up healing, the tank was taking more then I could heal after I spent everything. Luckily things started to die before the tank hit 0 and began to out healing the damage. So I checked the brds gear and it was a glaring problem. First I said, "Oh it is simply from the BRD not being geared up enough for pulls like that" after I commented that we nearly wiped because of low DPS (trying to explain I spent all my CDs) I asked if they knew about the 290 gear from the quest and do their best to upgrade weapon ASAP, the lack of DPS really hurt on that particular pull.
Now clearly the SMN would be ranked higher on proposed DPS meter thing, but that does not tell us if the SMN is good or bad just because they did more damage then a BRD in gimp gear. (highly likely the SMN knew what they where doing, along with the brd, it seemed it was just a gear issue on the brd part, to have things die like they where, I seen much worse with both DPS being geared better.) Without a parser you really just need to hone your observance skills and learn what all jobs can do, if you want to know who is being bad, acceptable, and over the top godly.
Another situation where "DPS rank" would not help is a high tank with somewhat lower end DPS, the DPS could be doing more damage then the tank in the case, but you got no clue they should be doing a lot more and would be unable to see it. -
08-19-2017, 12:21 AMSkogli
This is the same topic about trying to force parsers and dps meters into the game. It's just a slightly more subtle attempt. Spam.
-
08-19-2017, 01:02 AMRichardButteI'm sure you did fine. I may not agree with all of your points but you've articulated them well enough for me to tell you're no dummy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
But from this and the post below, it seems the "Drunken Master" tanking approach may have some merit to it after all! (which is of course to be slightly buzzed, but don't go into "black-out drunk")
Honestly, it was the jarring switch from healing to DPSing that made me realize it more than anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallus
You just gave me a good idea that might go a long way toward making parsers/trackers a solid and fun part of the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
New thread incoming.
*Notes your forum join date*Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow_Princess
*Notes my forum join date*
*Grins*
But seriously, I started in 1.0 and have watched this game grow since then. However, I never seriously mained a DPS until now, and it was the switch from heals to DPS that made me realize just how little pressure is on me (outside of a static, of course). -
08-19-2017, 08:39 AMOscuraI should start going to any thread that even so much as implies adding something I dislike and then immediately call it spam. Or "forcing" it into the game. I'm sure people would love how pretentious it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skogli
I really don't care about pro-parse or anti-parse but the mental gymnastics around anti-parsing is insane sometimes. Asking for anything to be added to the game is not spam. Especially when the OP is putting effort into their posts and replying often. -
08-19-2017, 11:46 AMKrotoan
Have you noticed that with your tanking or your healing you get a weightier say on how your party progresses?
People KNOW that another DPS is in the wings just itching for the chance to run stuff, you can be replaced almost instantly as DPS.
People ALSO know that if they ditch a sub-par tank or a iffy healer they'll be waiting 15 minutes if they're LUCKY to replace that slot.
Tank controls the pulls, Healer keeps everyone alive and if they tell you to do something there's the threat of "or you get no healing" behind it.
There IS extra responsibility, ... AND power.
and though there are not hard numbers to quantify if your DPS is bad, an experienced party member in any role will be able to tell if someone isn't pulling their weight. Most tanks will notice things aren't dying quickly enough and can tell if someone is just coasting their 3 button rotation or actually running a good streak, or if their healer is poor they might have to pop one too many cooldowns for every pull. Healers might have to struggle with GCD just to keep the tank alive and also that even with their assistance on DPS, stuff just isn't dying, once again a healer can LOOK and see that one DPS is trying (varied skills, doing positionals if necessary). DPS of course has very little quantifiable hard tells, but they're there. If I'm the other DPS and stuff is taking just a little to long? I can slow my damage.. or change to another target for a little spot checking.
Do I think a hard measurement stick would help? .. some people yes, people who really do want to improve could benefit greatly. However I think that since most people are DPS, and the only thing that the majority of these players have to puff their chests about IS that DPS.. imagine how much more toxic someone could be with hard numbers to throw in peoples faces?
I've experienced elitist jerks giving me a hard time about my "sub-par DPS". No numbers just "where was this buff? you never have it up!" or "THIS IS TAKING FOREVER" . I agree DPS has less social pressure, but once again, I don't think this is HEAVEN for DPS. There are prices for maining a DPS. -
08-19-2017, 12:13 PMSnow_PrincessCan't judge a cover by the book. Sure it will make sense to comment that to me but I post for my sissy since she can't due the the forum name she is stuck with, feels it is a privacy issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
"I am guessing you simply played off and on then. You have some comments that suggest you do not play a lot. It is that or I am just extremely gifted with observance skills. Being able to gauge how fast or how slow stuff dies is directly related to what actions you do if you want to play as optimal as you can. If things die fast you spam holy, if things die slow, you may want to space out stuns, as you toss out aero III and aero I and prepare use more healing oGCDs and other things like that. So being a bad DPS could never hide from my eyes and having the enmity bars did give another clue on it. You did state a problem before that was.. or seemed wide spread to new healers at 50 nearing the end of 2.0 and wondered if what you said was in more reference to that. Because now people hardly call out healers, like the story of the WHM that did literally zero DPS, not even using assize.
Healers would have more pressure on average, like tanks, same as any game, if people do not pull fast enough people get mad at tank, if people die (even if it is the others fault) they whine and blame healer even if it isn't a healing issue. Was it here? or different thread? I had a very close wipe on lack of DPS and had to say something so they can lower pull size or not pull big like the one we did. In the end, being a good DPS has much tighter timings then Healing, like your thread pointed out on animation lock problems and ping." -
08-19-2017, 12:29 PMGalgarion
Parsing isn't bad. They should implement it in the game and keep individual records for players. Then they should reward dps players for playing at or above those records. Gil rewards or cracked clusters and the like. Encourage people to excel, y'know? Maybe use a rating system to keep them locked out of content they aren't ready for, the same way schools keep pre-algebra students from attending trigonometry courses. Not to punish, but to wait until they're prepared.
-
08-19-2017, 12:33 PMSnow_PrincessI like this but few concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
How does DPS@BiS doing max potency rotations improve? I do they keep getting rewards? This may also lead people doing bad on purpose that are on top like that, and feign improvements. Other then that I do love this idea, it is a good start, maybe ill encourage people to try improve over just do acceptable minimum and be lazy. -
08-19-2017, 12:47 PMAphraelAmaranthaSorry but I disagree with you. Parsing has always been a cancer in MMOs and it gives players the excuse to be toxic jerks and wave their e-peens around as if it mattered. Knowing your mechanics imo is far better than trying to do high dps. If you are dead, then you aren't doing any dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
-
08-19-2017, 01:04 PMKrotoanWhat would keep people from eating AOE's just to hit these records? "I needed to be behind to get the potency bonus".. "If I moved I'd stop my casting and lose DPS" . I ask this because I have a friend who does EXACTLY this. Doesn't like to move unless something is going to DEFINITELY kill them because otherwise "THE DEEPS" will go down. They put extra pressure on the Healers and stress out tanks. This would encourage the hell out of this kind of behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
I'm not against parsers, but I know the playerbase well enough to know that most of them cannot use them responsibly or maturely. -
08-19-2017, 02:20 PMArriusYou know what's even better? DPS that do both, doing damage and evade mechanics, at the same time realiably and on a acceptable level.Quote:
Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha
And that shouldn't be the exception, mind you - This is a standard which each player on the DPS role should strive for.
However, people seem to enjoy rather being carried at times than to make an effort in learning their job, or outright refuse to be helped out just because they "don't pay my sub".
To solve this, and avoid possible mudslinging in party chat (which many probably don't want to do, as arguing with stubborn people who aren't seeing the wrongs in their doing is quite the emotional strain), players rather like have solid evidence.
And this evidence can be used in form of a official parser, as everyone would see the numbers and have all reason to address that player who is underperforming on a noticable level.
Getting all defensive here because 'elitists' will use it for their own gain is mostly a overblown thing, as the community here is rather relaxed about such issues and only really steps in when underperformers are affecting the party.
Of course, some might use it to be obnoxious with the numbers, but you do have the option to report them for harassment, of which I heard and read that SE drops quite the hammer on those.
So, if you're confident with the DPS you do, and there are means to report people reliably to have them set straight if they abuse the numbers, what else is to speak against parsing to uproot the bads?
Unless the community as a whole makes an effort to raise the standards. Which I doubt they will do, because it would require effort from their side. And keep in mind - If the players would do decent enough in duties, regardless of role, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. -
08-19-2017, 02:36 PMSelovaYou can disagree all you want, but you're still wrong. The issue you have isn't against parsers, It's people in the community that misuse them. Mechanics also aren't the be all end all to encounters either. You could execute mechanics of a fight perfectly, but if your personal performance suffers because you can't handle juggling mechanics and performing on a optimal level at the same time, You'll just eat the enrage every single time. Parsers are a tool designed to help players overcome dps hurdles, know what went wrong and how to improve their personal performance. Just because you had some bad experiences with people using them incorrectly doesn't mean it's the parsers existence that is to blame. Toxic players will always find a way to bring down others, parsers or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha
-
08-19-2017, 02:45 PMShurrikhanEven though in all but the most lenient raids knowing mechanics is essential to high DPS and high DPS is essential to clears?Quote:
Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha
EDIT: You're asking for a bare minimum of performance that can only apply outside of serious content. Generally, both are required. And having information to tell you how your decisions fared only helps in that purpose.
Also, in WoW, Rift, and GW2, parsers have been also a gateway to good advice, team spot-checking and coordination, and realistic expectations, all fairly opposite to toxicity. XIV has been kind of the outlier in how negatively their use may appear, but I think that has more to do with the slightly higher portion of players than normal who are actively disinterested in playing well, and the fact that any serious play in this game is generally made or broken by DPS (checks). -
08-19-2017, 03:55 PMAphraelAmaranthaQuote:
Originally Posted by Selova
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If SE wanted players using parsers, they would have put one in. Instead they ban people who get caught using them. That should tell you people something. Also, SE is not the only one. SEGA bans people for using them in PSO2 as well. I'm certain other games also ban them. If you want to use parsers, go play a game that allows for their use like Echo of Soul or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrius
Also another thing to think about: you can't get to optimal DPS if you are failing mechanics. Knowing mechanics come first, then you can work on optimizing your rotations. -
08-19-2017, 04:04 PMNestamaThat doesn't mean you shouldn't not try to keep your DPS up while also learning mechanics. Throughout my times learning Lakshmi EX, Susano EX, V1S and V2S, I always made sure my DPS would always be decent, while at the same time keeping an eye out for mechanics. It gets you comfortable with the fight much quicker, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha
As Arrius said, if someone were to harass/be toxic toward you because of a parser, then you can easily report them and the GM's will be quick to toss them into gaol. Blame the player, not the tool. -
08-19-2017, 04:17 PMZeonsiltPeople already doing that. I have a best friend, who is playing a Monk, and every-single-time he charges (copying certain someone) ahead of tank (which is me) and screaming "MY STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKS!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
Good thing i'm always 2 step ahead and can charge also (as a warrior).
Remember, folks! If you're playing a Monk, you need to meditate and you gonna become one with your stacks. -
08-19-2017, 04:28 PMAphraelAmaranthaPutting them in a gaol doesn't solve the problem. They should be permabanned. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
-
08-19-2017, 04:36 PMAxiomPITCH
My personal favorite implementation of a scoreboard is the Nexon hosted version of Vindictus, particularly because it is so simple. It doesn't even show a numerical parse. It merely shows the time taken to down the boss at the end of the encounter, and underneath it is the name of the player who did the highest % of damage. However what I don't like about it is that it's a pop up screen page, taking up the entire screen. It becomes something that you click to exit instantly after you see the name of the highest dps.
But what I hope for in XIV in regards to an in game parser is something resembling the active time maneuver mechanic or job meters in size, a UI element visually condensed and to the point, popping up for everyone after combat is finished, for example, between mob pulls or after boss encounters displaying the time taken in the encounter, the player boasting the most damage (not a number, but a %), and the player contributing most to the LB gauge.
This would give players incentive to play correctly, ie. a dps using their emnity abilities instead of trying to be #2 on the emnity bars because there's no way for other players to see that they're doing the most damage if their party members do not have a parser, or perhaps a healer or tank wishes to shoot to be the first on the limit gauge, pushing health to the limits. This would also somewhat curb number circlejerks and lynch mobs, however I will be the first to admit that numbers matter above all else in testing damage rotations and strategies. Which is why I prefer time and percentile for something simple and inclusive without forcing [bad] players to be completely in the spotlight, 3rd party parsers are overloading with information, too much to condense into something that's not a pop-up page at the end of fights.