i am totally agree with this parts ask FC or who every you can help if DPS or healer wearing VIT gear i would just slap them and say just dont do it! and you are right is really easy to gear good gear but you are also a veteran player same as me but the newbies have no clue how easy they can get good gear, so in my eyes its a part of a good FC to help newbies and tell them some information, because i dont wanna teach newbies about i am also not wearing a metor crown for this reason and also i am in a 1 men FC because i have no interess in this stuff but when you are enter a DF please dont expect to get good players and kick them because of not enough dps, to talk about dps in a dungeon is just ridiculous, more important is when tanks and healers are alright ok and not someone die all way long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
regards hobbit
-
02-14-2017, 01:25 AMSmallHobbit
-
02-14-2017, 01:25 AMLeanna
Whenever I see a DD with an ilvl 180 weapon in "new" content, I cry a bit and something dies inside me, but instead of kick them I push my dps. Low dps isn't a reason to kick someone imo, unless they aren't using skills and only auto attacks.
-
02-14-2017, 02:10 AMClethoriaI'm entirely failing to see where you're coming from with this. Sneak your way in? You make it sound like it's some exclusive party and that people shouldn't be allowed to progress unless they can run content at tip top quality. For Extreme and Savage, understandable to want the best because neither are really required for the MSQ. But all I'm seeing is someone who wants to see something new and keep on stepping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
-
02-14-2017, 02:16 AMChandraNoctisBoosting your ilvl with non-class appropriate accessories is cheating the system. It's not against the rules - but its definitely grounds for a vote dismiss if they are also underperforming obviously. Basically the OP is going into content expecting to be carried - and found that the groups they were in didn't want to carry them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clethoria
-
02-14-2017, 02:26 AMLlus
Min iLevel, while you can get away with tricking the system by wearing some pieces of gear at a much higher iLevel and having some gear at a much lower level; you are going to be hurting yourself and your teammates if all of your gear isn't the min iLevel for the dungeon. Your overall stats will be LOWER than the requirement for the dungeon and your DPS will be horrible and will be very noticeable. At the very least, make sure that all your gear meets the min ilevel for the dungeon, one or two pieces won't make a huge difference as long as they're not 10-20 levels below the required iLevel. Expect to be kicked if you're badly cheating the min iLevel requirement.
I would assume, that the mentor or other party member looked at your gear and if you were cheating the iLevel requirement; that's why you were kicked. If you met the iLevel requirement for all but one or two pieces of equipment, it's not a huge deal; everyone will still be carrying you to an extent - but you should be capable of putting out the DPS required to complete the instance even if one or two pieces of gear were a bit low (like accessories only).
The mentor should have let you know why you were being kicked. Just "LOW DPS" doesn't let you know anything and doesn't help you. It just let's them avoid dealing with new players that don't know any better. So, the mentor (or whoever initiated the vote kick) was justified in kicking you, the mentor should have given you advice. Don't wear the crown if you aren't going to do your job. Any time a mentor is wearing their crown, they should be offering advice when they see someone is doing something wrong. That's what you signed up for, if you aren't doing that you're letting experienced people carry you to your mount.
Cross class skills from DRG and MNK are a necessity in end-game content. You can get away without having blood for blood, internal release and invigorate for a while. But you will absolutely need them so it's best to pick them up as soon as possible.
Since there was no specific question asked here, this is the best advice I can give. If you aren't meeting DPS checks and your gear is a a mishmash of iLevels to get you into the dungeon you shouldn't expect 3 other people to carry you through the content and you will end up getting kicked for that. It's rare that you'll be kicked for not having all the cross class skills you need because almost nobody pays attention to when other people are using blood for blood & internal release; but it could happen so be aware of that.
If you're having trouble finding min-ilevel gear for content, there are several stepping-stone gear sets that can help you out.
Crafted i220 and i250 gear is available and will quickly let you get into a ton of content. This stuff is expensive, so if you have crafters in your FC that are willing to help you out; you can seek their help. Be ready to help them out as well because the materials for this gear is also expensive.
Garo PVP gear is iLevel 235. While this should not be used for end-game content, it's an easy way to fill out some minimum requirements while gearing up. PVP is popping pretty quickly now and you should be able to get a full set of i235 gear within a few hours. If you already have some gear above that level, it will be even easier to fill out.
Lore gear is pretty easy to get and will get you a full set of 230 gear pretty quickly. The Garo PVP gear is probably easier to get though and is +5 iLevels over the Lore gear. If you have Lore to spend you can either spend it on Lore gear or the materials needed for the crafted i250 gear; so again check with crafter friends/FC members to see if they can help you out.
Alexandrian gear will also get you meeting min iLevel requirements with i250 gear, but you will need i230 gear at minimum to do the content. You will also be expected to have blood for blood, invigorate and internal release. DPS checks here are pretty heavy for min iLevel and most people farming Alexander normal will be doing so for their secondary classes.
Weapon. This is the biggest improvement you can make for your DPS. The fastest way to get end-game level weapon is the crafted i250 weapon. This will take you into just about every piece of content in the game as you work toward getting your relic weapon or weapon drops from extreme primals or Alexander Savage. Be aware though, that you will be expected to upgrade to a higher iLevel weapon as soon as possible, but the crafted i250 will give you a head-start toward all end-game content. But do not neglect your other gear and expect just your weapon to carry you through; you should still have every piece of equipment meeting the min iLevel for the content. -
02-14-2017, 02:28 AMZojhaIt's fairly simple, really. The iLvL restriction exists to ensure you have a certain amount of stats. Using an accessory of the wrong job means you'll only benefit from its secondaries, which means your stats will be lower than the item level restriction suggests and thus puts the effective item level of that item a lot lower than the nominal item level, as you do not gain the full item level's worth of stats from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clethoria
The ability to abuse this is one of the flaws of the item level restriction. Another flaw is that every item is weighed the same, even though they have vastly different stats. For item level, a level 150 weapon and a 250 accessory are the same as a 250 weapon and a 150 accessory (if everything else is the same), however, the stats of the prior are significantly higher than the latter. This, too, can be abused to get into content when you actually lack the stats the content demands.
It would be better if SE just checked for the stats directly instead, as that would prevent such loopholes. -
02-14-2017, 02:33 AMBourne_EndeavorYou are purposely putting on gear that can hinder your job just to meet the ilvl requirements instead of simply buying the appropriate gear. If they promptly switch back once the queue pops, they technically don't meet the ilvl now. Basically, it's gaming the system. While not technically cheating, I cannot exactly fault someone if they kick you either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clethoria
-
02-14-2017, 02:34 AMMeridaQLet\\'s be honest here, people are complaining about a few fending accessories on slowing down old story content. The fact that she has a 250 bow which is literally the most important piece, outweighs the bump in ilvl. I don\\'t know about you guys but when I see that in a dungeon I don\\'t go /kick. That content is extremely easy, I give a few suggestions and I cheer for them for every drop they get for their class. If you have so much issue from people not being optimal or overgeared don\\'t DF. Let\\'s be honest everyone has been carried one time or another. Help those around you and bring up the community instead of tearing it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChandraNoctis
-
02-14-2017, 02:40 AMSeig345
I recently made the mistake of queueing up for the Vault as a Sch with subpar gear. I main healing, originally as Whm then switched to Ast, both I have at 60, but Sch plays a bit different. I was leveling smn but figured since I'm familiar with healing I would switch and made some awful mistakes. Basically, I had lvl 50 gear but a lvl 45 book...
It was the first time I had ever had a tank rage quit on me. We were fine until right after the first boss, we wiped twice on the trash leading to the second and the tank bailed. I felt miserable, but an fc mate filled in and we actually finished the rest of the Vault without wiping (though it did get close several times)
So it does seem like the ilvl requirements definitely aren't super strict, albeit as a veteran player who dropped the ball in several horrible ways, my example is certainly a touch on the extreme side. -
02-14-2017, 02:59 AMKhemorexmost mentors dont really notice how annoying they are in reality :P you could have given advice and continued with the dungeon without any troubles , yet im pretty sure some of the mentor continued to build up theyre ego and increase the rage in the group :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
because some people cant stop after one sentence they have to go on and on and on until they flip out :P
while i agree using tank jewelry to get into a dungeon is not the best idea , im pretty sure it was an overreaction from the "mentors".
though since we dont know what really happened in dungeon chat :P its not really up to us to judge the situation. -
02-14-2017, 03:15 AMAzper
I'm not sure what's with the sudden rise in mentor witch hunt threads, but here we are again...
As usual, we only have one side to the story. This might just be me reaching, but what if the mentor did in fact offer advice in picking up helpful/necessary cross-class skills, but the OP had the same knee-jerk response as in this thread. After all, it does take at least two people to vote yes for the kick to go through, so at least one other person agreed with OPs dismissal for whatever reason. -
02-14-2017, 03:26 AMSDaemonQuote:
Originally Posted by Azper
To be fair the advice posted throughout the thread, while helpful and she should surely take it, has been mixed with attitudes that should really be avoided when offering advice. Reading through the thread I can see why the OP got defensive. -
02-14-2017, 03:27 AMCrystenFantastic idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeridaQ
-
02-14-2017, 03:50 AMClethoriaGiven the sales during Christmas/New Years maybe those players have hit mentor status and it's reflecting in game. Also, the game's T for Teen, so to add onto that, people are likely seeing emotionally strung children parading around with a crown instead of level headed adults that players could be expecting. Just speculationQuote:
Originally Posted by Azper
-
02-14-2017, 03:58 AMRalts
Was the healer the mentor? If so, that dude should've helped with the damage if damage is low lol, or atleast the tank should've changed to dps stance(after getting enough enmity) if healer's slacking
-
02-14-2017, 03:58 AMMeridaQlol so you ignore completely my comment about helping and improving the community and if you read through my previous posts about offering advice and rewrite your own snide comment. So obviously you don't understand how this game works. Let me explain, if you get into a dungeon and the persons gear isn't what you want it to be you can't change their gear to something better that they don't have. Two if they don't have the right cc skills you can't have them magically have them. What I do is offer them advice, you might want this skill x, you can get this gear x by doing x, to increase dps try using these skills during packs and these on bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
So from your response to my comment my guess is you (because we are all assuming here) would see someone without optimal gear and tell them they are crap and should be booted for the carry. From your lack of understanding of how the game works I would ask who is carrying who? -
02-14-2017, 04:47 AMLunaFaye
Most of the time it's these mentors or players in general, that lack the dps, but are very quick with pointing fingers towards other or under geared players. It's easier to say, well that person over there doesn't do enough dps because he/she is new and look at the gear, let's just kick that person.
While I normally don't kick people based on their dps, if I see that they are actually trying, weighing in their gear and not something I found on fflogs (ilvl 270), I'll take a closer look at what's happening throughout the dungeon.
Sure some people can not be bothered to go that extra mile, however if I want to kick someone (based on dps) I first off need to see what the actual problem is. I can't just go by a number and play the "standard/average" card, especially in dungeons that are for leveling or the first dungeons to unlock old expert.
With that mentioned, again before people jump at me, I won't kick a person based on their dps, except raids or someone just standing around (falls more under the afk category). If I see that person in question lacks the usage of their gcd's I will point it out but being polite about it. If someone doesn't have certain cross skills (new trend that started last summer), I will mention that as well. It's up to the player to decide if he/she takes the advice or plain out refuses.
I then go on with the dungeon run that we have started, and put some more effort in it on my side. Sure it isn't ideal but there's so many factors that could play a role here. Maybe that person wasn't feeling good today, maybe it's a new player, maybe it's the gear or that person isn't comfortable with the mechanics yet etc.
Now I do understand that others like to argue with the fact that these players should have watched a guide, or shouldn't be carried, insert any other reason here.... If I want to run my expert or grind dungeons for tomes as example, on a more "professional/above average" scale, I go with friends or open a PF. The moment I join DF, not only have the other 3 people to adapt to my standards but I need to do that too.
Coming with the "I want that run done under 3.5 minutes" mindset isn't gonna work. If you join the DF, bring patience and some politeness, and while there are outstanding groups out there, that do use the DF more often than most of us, it's not the majority and shouldn't be seen as that.
It took me a long time (nearly 2 years actually) to understand that not everybody has the same mindset. Things that upset's me are most likely not going to upset someone else etc. So running with a parser through leveling or old dungeons, expecting players to have dps that they have somewhere seen on fflog, is just the funniest stuff I've ever seen or read about, and sadly to say, that's not what the parser is for.
to the OP, I personally wouldn't worry much about it, sure it can ruin your whole day or make you questioning yourself, however there will be always players like that. Those have watched a twitch/youtube channel, and basing the performance of everybody else but themselves of what they've seen. Not on anything that might be logical or might be happening because of different circumstances. If that "mentor" had such issue, he/she should have removed him/herself from the group.
Not trying to support bad players here but we all need to give it a break and stop acting like we are better. Back in the day, we used specific tools too, but that was for raid content or when selling content, we weren't using it for sheer entertainment or to harass someone. That's plain out wrong and going to far. -
02-14-2017, 04:49 AMCrystenI would kill to find a pragmatic poster on this forum, I swear. I don't know how the game works? Neither do you, because there is something I can do to control the situation and make this problem go away - leave the duty myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeridaQ
Am I going to do this with players who are correctly geared, know base rotations and are genuinely trying? Of course not, and to suggest otherwise is nothing short of insulting.
Am I going to do this to players like the OP, who choose to artificially boost iLevel, wear the incorrect gear and whine when critique is offered? Damn right I will.
I just choose to not put up with it. I just leave the duty, find something else productive to do with my 30 minute lockout and leave people like you to do the heavy lifting instead. You have the patience to teach terrible, lazy, self-entitled players? Good for you. I don't. I'm not a mentor. I used to be, but experiences with players such as the OP and apologists such as yourself made me jack that in.
I don't see how giving someone a hug, a pat on the head and a free carry is any incentive in the slightest to get better at the game. Answer me this - realistically, is a person in i145 gear in Sohr Khai who just got a free carry going to spend the next couple of days taking your advice, getting their gear up to snuff and practicing their rotations, or are they going to watch the cutscene and then waltz right into Nidhogg Easy mode (and shit that up as well)? -
02-14-2017, 05:12 AMTaleraRistain
A couple of points
1) If you're going to wear the crown, live up to the crown. If not, then don't wear it.
2) Going into DF with any expectation is pretty dumb and if you want to control what you get, go in preformed
3) Bitching about someone's low DPS in an MSQ dungeon is pretty dumb, too -
02-14-2017, 05:55 AMViduExpecting someone in a level 60 dungeon to wear gear thats appropriate for that content (ilvl150 is NOT - even if the average ilvl might come close to whats needed) and have important crossclass is "dumb"?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
I'd rather say: Going in with that kind of gear and without your crossclasskills and expect everyone to be totally fine with that is dumb.
To me it doesnt matter if a run takes 5 minutes longer - if I can see that the person in question is trying their best. Not giving a f*ck about your gear and skills is pretty damn unrespectful towards your fellow players - or shows that you lack the knowledge about the game (as in: knowing what kind of gear is for your job?). And no, at level 60 in a 3.3 dungeon you're not getting of as "Hey, I'm new!"
Honestly, people like the OP are the reason we're having ilvls in place at all - so people have to gear up and ensure that dungeons can be completed - and that in an acceptable time.
(I got a tank in DV recently, his best right-side-piece was a level39-NQ-earring, his HP were only slightly above mine, as a monk. We engage with the first group and tell you what: The healer, being somewhat new themself couldnt keep them up - no surprise, with basically missing about 3k HP. As friendly as possible, I tell the tank that he REALLY has to upgrade those accessories and he admits that he was being to "cheap" to buy some actual ones. So... what do we do? We abonden the run before we even reached the first boss. Just no chance - BUT he was totally able to queue up for the dungeon even though his gear wasnt okay for it) -
02-14-2017, 06:06 AMIstaru1) What exactly is the expectation then?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
- Is it to answer questions and give advice?
- Is it to carry lazy, entitled sprouts that feel like you personally owe them a clear and it's your responsibility to make that happen?
- Is it to be careful of their super special snowflake status and do things for them while not doing anything that may upset their feelings?
2) I do expect that someone who queues for a dungeon meets the minimum ilvl requirements while wearing appropriate gear for their job. At 60 and being further into the story, I expect them to have the cross class skills they are supposed to have.
3) I don't think it's dumb at all. I gave up trying to help people with rotations and such in dungeons a long time ago. I still do outside of dungeons however. When their low DPS, along with others makes it impossible to clear content, something should be said to them. Like Nidhogg NM pre-nerf.
Let's change the story a small amount. It's no longer a DPS, it's now a DRK, or an AST. Also, their accessories are all casting accessories. And they don't have the cross class skills they need too. They don't have provoke, or stoneskin, or protect, or swiftcast. Change your feelings any? It should. They will have a hard time clearing a dungeon when the total gear level is almost equal to the dungeon minimum, if they can clear it at all.
To the people who claim that you should take what you get from DF and like it...
I agree and disagree with that statement. Yes, there should be some give and take between gear and skill levels. The actions of the OP go way beyond that in my opinion.
Do I kick people for low DPS? I do not. If we can't clear something when too many DPS are bad, like Nidhogg NM (also MSQ btw), I'll vote abandon or leave. I do not owe anyone a clear, I only owe you to do my part in clearing the content. Carrying someone is not part of that. -
02-14-2017, 06:26 AMRaven_Darkstar
I really wanted to come in on the OPs side of this, but I just can't. Yes, mentors kicking in the way described (sounded like they were just pissed they couldn't speedrun and kicked the player they considered to be the one preventing them from doing that) was a crappy thing to do. But.
Level 60 with ilvl 150 white tank gear mixed with 250 crafted, on a BRD. And hiding behind the new player thing? Seriously? Just allow me to point out a couple things. One, being new is no excuse. Whatsoever. By the time you hit 60, CC skills being needed and appropriate gear for content being important shouldn't be a difficult concept.
And two, yeah, you pay a sub same as everyone else, but don't you have the least little bit of self respect to not want to be the one holding the group back? It's team play, and having a basic appropriate level of gear and your CC skills falls under basic politeness to me.
It hasn't been that long since I was a new player myself, on the same job even. But you know what? I would never, Ever have queued for a dungeon with so much as 1 piece below the required ilvl for it. Never. In fact, I had all my CC skills well before I even reached level 50. And once I hit 60, my first step in gearing was not buying from the mb and running straight into endgame content. It was hunts and the Doman gear (the hunt gear at that time). Only when I had a full set of that (upgraded to 210) did I start running the higher dungeons. Got myself a set of eso gear. Then went for the lore gear. And so on, rinse repeat. The way gearing up is supposed to go. Not holding onto old subpar gear and slipping some high ilvl crafted pieces in to get past the ilvl req and hoping no one notices.
Well, sadly for you someone noticed. Twice even. The lesson here is, if you can't be bothered to get necessary skills or gear, don't be surprised when you get kicked from groups. If you continue on this way, I can promise it's gonna happen a lot more often. -
02-14-2017, 06:28 AMLunaFayeIf the player is able to enter the dungeon via duty finder in the ilvl 150 gear (based on your example), that means he/she is wearing the proper gear, otherwise that person would be unable to enter the dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
While we do have ilvl's in place, some dungeons do not have ilvl's, and it's not up to the player base to decide if someone meets the ilvl requirements, if there aren't any requirements to begin with. However, I do love your interpretation of simple phrasings. Let me point out what I mean, you are saying that specific ilvls are in place to prevent under geared players from joining specific duties and that's correct, but I didn't see the phrasing or terms that state, that these kind of dungeons need to be completed in an acceptable time.
Now I am asking myself, what is acceptable, if we are going by the game itself, every dungeon has a timer and as long as you successfully finish the dungeon in that time, it's marked as completed/finished. If you go over that time frame you're kicked out of the dungeon by default and the duty will be marked as incomplete.
If we are going by your definition of acceptable that's something I talked about earlier, your own mindset, and that's something you should be looking at. Just because you think, for whatever reason, that as an example the dungeon needs to be completed under 10 minutes, doesn't mean that the system agree's with you. That's your own play style but not something that's actual in place. -
02-14-2017, 06:32 AMMeridaQYes if you have a problem with them, leave and take your 30 minute lockout. That is what happens when queing for DF you run into some players that are not taking the game as serious. If this drives you mad then form a party with friends or FC mates so you don't have to deal with randos. Some people take advice and improve, some don't, whether they do or not is not something you should worry about. As stated with the OP they are doing research beforehand even on dungeons. I have only researched extreme primals and savages. If playing with people who are not so good is so frustrating then go outside for a walk and come back when you are relaxed and are ready to have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
-
02-14-2017, 06:48 AMViduYou're making it VERY easy for yourself and everyone else to excuse a playstyle thats simply "bad", by only looking at the ilvl.Sadly thats the only gate thats in place for such duties and calculating it is quite a problem - as explained earlier in this thread accessories count as much as any piece, while they can actually be totally useless for said class, making it basically as if that slot was empty. Tank-jewls do nothing for a bard in a normal dungeon; even secondary stats might be worthless (parry, speed). Looking at that: while the system might have let them pass, they cheated the system and didnt gera up properly. If they get kicked for that because other people do not accept that, thats a legit difference in playstyle - 3 people prefer to play the game with a fourth person who actually put in the tiny bit of effort to get gear for their job. The crafting/gathering gear is now locked to those classes because people were running duties in it, to spiritbond the gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaFaye
So yeah, we're getting more and more gates just to prevent people from being lazy and selfish about their gear - and you REALLY want to defend the stance that someone doesnt has to gear what gear they're using aslong as they're hitting the ilvl? You're sure about that? Because sticking to close to the "law" of the game might mean we need a better law - or in other words: Even more and better gates and more specific requirements or locked items.
Maybe thats actually a good idea, to keep people out of dungeons if they cant even bother to slap some proper gear on - because No, tank-accessories and ilvl150-gear arent appropiate for a dungeon that requires you to have an ilvl of 200. And I dont get how you can even defend that and say its okay, when wrong accessories basically mean empty slots and ilvl150-gear that someone didnt care about upgrading since 3.0
But: Do we really need SE to babysit us so much? To prevent us from using any gear that isnt meant for our job/class because some people dont give a s*it about pulling their weight and just about what they want for themself - and others actually believing that thats okay, but removing them from a duty isnt? -
02-14-2017, 07:01 AMJudge_XeroThat's terrible. That's like being i155 in an i200 + Dungeon on top of missing other cross classed skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane
-
02-14-2017, 07:15 AMDementThat's not even remotely true. If your tank or healer showed up in a mishmash of 150-250 gear and full DEX accessories but barely squeaked by the ilvl requirement because of those DEX accs... there's a very good chance that the dungeon wouldn't even be clearable but they'd certainly be able to enter.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaFaye
Min ilvl is the bare minimum that SE thinks you should have to have a reasonable chance of clearing a dungeon. We're not talking about being over geared for speed runs, we're talking about the very bare minimum which the OP stated they exceeded by 2 ilvls so they were at the bare minimum already. Now add in that they were using VIT accessories as a BRD which is basically the same as NOT wearing any gear in those slots and they absolutely did not meet the bare minimum. Would you accept someone who showed up in a level 60 dungeon without a neckpiece, earrings and missing 1 ring? Because using accessories which don't have your stats on them is only very very slightly better.
To the OP: this was bound to happen eventually. At some point you need to slow down and work on getting yourself geared up to an acceptable gear level for even the MSQ... it ended up happening in Sohr Khai but there is at least 1 other trial and 2 other dungeons after it with an even higher ilvl requirement which you would have had to meet. Now is the time to get proper gear for the final push.
Also, as a curiosity, how did you know it was the mentor who initiated the vote kick? From the sound of your tale the mentor may have expressed displeasure in the slow DPS but it's just as likely that the other two party members initiated and executed the vote kick after you had admitted it was likely you. -
02-14-2017, 07:17 AMAnimaAnimus
Maybe they should change rolls to Tank, Healer, Caster, Ranged, Melee and lock the jobs out that can not use them.
But to be fair this level of babysitting by the devs is kindda ridiculous. I can see in low level dungeons, I had tanks come in caster gear and when they were told they responded they didn't know any better. Which if you're new to gaming or mmo's I can see as a valid thing. And after a little stat explination they were all, "oh cool, thanks for the info. I will change gear". But by lvl 60...50 and 20 even you should know better.
I will be honest, I have had mnks come into a dungeon in caster gear, tanks in melee, brds in tank gear, and they all got the boot super fast. Especially when they have the attitude of "$&#% off" when you question them about it.
It's the same with ice mages and non dps healers. Booted. The dps thing I know is a touchy subject but we have had healers that don't even draw their weapon or have the nerve to dance through entire pulls, literally step/ball dance the whole battle and even had a healer /moonlift during trash pulls and the first half of bosses in dun sciath because they didn't need to heal. If you refuse to learn your job or just flat out refuse to play it properly... /goodbye
You may think its your right because you pay your sub so you play how you want, but I pay my sub too and there is nothing forcing me to play with you, that is why the kick option is there. -
02-14-2017, 07:33 AMXanderKing
Players that choose to be mentors are taking on the extra responsibility of playing teacher. If you are queuing for mentor roulette, you should already have the mindset that there's a greater possibility that the run will run longer, mistakes will be made, etc. If it takes the entire run to explain rotations, gear, mechanics, and so forth, then so be it. That is the whole purpose for the mentors being there. As long as players are taking advice and actively show they are trying, then really there should be no issues. I don't understand when people who choose to be mentors act as though it is such a burden. It's what you signed up for.
Can we also remember this is a game, please. There's no reason to be so critical. If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong. -
02-14-2017, 07:46 AMLunaFayeQuote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
I don't know if you have noticed but let me point that out. I am not the one that pointed out the ilvl or based my argument on that. I commented on a post that was made by you, regarding the interpretations of simple in game measurements/requirements.
There's also no law in the game or any online game. Law has nothing to do with the absurd ideas some people might have or come up with. I called it a play style and mindset because that's what it is. What I am defending or not defending is irrelevant, the point is still the same and pointing out flaws in comments that are made prior.
You as many others are riding the "let me look you up on lodestone and comment on your "shitty" gear" train, that has absolutely nothing to do with it, or at least not directly, because someone can have an opinion based off an experience, that doesn't even slightly include the lodestone.
The OP stated he was wearing ilvl 202 gear that day, doesn't mention what class he was playing, the team composition, blue/green/pink gear etc. and yet if you're looking at the comments, people excusing the "kick" hungry mentality by a other player based on the OP's current gear, that we don't even certainly know he/she was wearing.
I like to argue, that given these kind of circumstances and out lash the topic received that the player might have changed his/her gear, so people would actually look at the problem. Even if that's not the case, the OP mentioned he/she was kicked due to low dps. While we now can argue that because he/she wasn't wearing the "proper" gear, that this was the result of the dps loss, let me tell you that it might or might not be the reason.
Regardless what the reasoning behind the kick might of been, I was and still pointing out, that a huge part of the community doesn't look at the whole picture. Instead, taking the smallest piece of the puzzle and basing their arguments and opinion on that, excusing any wrong doing or misinterpretations others might have in game. It's wrong, and it shouldn't continue like that, it's that simple.
Sadly to say, if you're looking at my posts made throughout this topic, I have argued and based my opinion on more than just gear. I didn't mentioned the gear since this wasn't one of my priorities. Your post on the other hand started with gear, went over to ilvl, skills all the way down to the "respect" level.... You see the difference? -
02-14-2017, 07:46 AMViduSince this was a recent dungeon, its most likely that they didnt got it for their mentor-roulette though. I do agree that a mentor should try and help new people and I'm trying my best to do that. There are point where I draw the line though - not having the proper gear for your job at level 60 is one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderKing
When you've reached level 60 you must have played this game for over 100 hours or so, right? You went through 60 levels and an aweful lot of dungeons - at this point you should really be expected to know the most commong basics of the game. One being which gear to use and one which crossclass-skills are required - thats nothing someone need to tell you patiently in a level 60 dungeon. Thats something I'll explain to you in Haukke Manor, not in Sohm Al HM.
And yes, it is a game - but does that mean you have to tolerate any behavior? For me its not fun having someone in a run who clearly doesnt care about other people. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I dont mind spending 5, 10 or 30 minutes longer in a duty if needed - as long as everyone is making an effort and doing/trying their best. Part of that is to take care of your gear and skills before hand. Not doing that is utterly unrespectful - and this argument can actually be twisted around aswell: If you're not having enough fun playing this game to gear up your character, why play at all? Gear-progress is a major part of the game, so if you're not having fun with that... -
02-14-2017, 08:03 AMDementThere's a slight wrinkle in that this was a MSQ dungeon with 4 players. If one was a mentor and one was the OP (new) that still leaves 50% of the party which did not sign up for having the run take a lot longer than it should.Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderKing
-
02-14-2017, 08:05 AMViduI put "law" in quotation-marks since I couldnt think of a better word for it (sorry, not a native speaker) - what I meant by that is: The game only lets you get into those dungeons with a certain ilvl, thats the "law" or "rule" here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaFaye
Well, OP only has his bard at level 60, so its afe to assume they were playing that class, right? No one had to look up their gear on the lodestone either, because they pointed that out themself.
And I like how you're bringing the "whole picture" into play here - we dont have that, thats true. And when I say "we", this includes you. We've only heared from OP here and how they felt misstreated and believe its not okay being kicked because they didnt meet certain standards. Seeing how they reacted in this thread and defend themself for cheating their way into the duty (yes, goddamit, wearing gear thats not supposed to be for your class and doesnt give you any useful stats, is cheating your way in) and using this "I'm new" as a pretty lame excuse at level 60, we can only guess they werent excatly nice and considerate within the duty either - but I'll give you that we dont know that, since we CANT look at the whole picture.
And let me raise you this: Being able to take care of your gear and your crossclass skills is some pretty basic skill, that you should bring to the table. Choosing the correct gear for your job is an important softskill too and seeing how someone didnt bother with that just shows to me how much (=not at all) they cared about their fellow teammates they would get paired up with.
Its not about how long the run will take or how skilled a player actually is - or at least not only about that. Its also about what message you're sending out by the way you present yourself. And wearing the wrong gear or not bothering to get important skills (may it be crossclass or even jobskills!) and bringing arguments to the table like "Its my sub, not yours!" is sending out a message like "I dont care about anyone but myself and my fun!" - not a good attitude in a game that requires teamwork, is it?
See, if the OP would have been like "Yeah, I know my gear isnt great, but I didnt had much time to play recently and really want to progress with the story, so it would be nice if you could bare with me! :)" I'm pretty sure it would have been less of an issue - but instead they dont learn from their mistakes and even come hear to throw a tantrum and play the victim? No, not cool. -
02-14-2017, 08:11 AMMirateski
I've noticed that I (a mentor in theory, but I don't wear the crown or do the roulette, I mostly just unlocked it because I met the requirements) have far more success in giving people advice when compared with my partner, who does wear the crown, or did while she was actually doing mentor roulette anyway. People are apparently more willing to listen to rotation tips or whatever from someone who ISN'T (ostensibly) a mentor.
Also, unless everyone else in the party was a mentor, they were only one of the people who kicked. There needs to be at least one other person agreeing for it to go through in a 4-man dungeon.
I once saw someone in midas floor 1, on the trash before the boss. They were a bard and had 14k hp, which is on the low side, but more than enough to clear the dungeon. Nobody was gonna kick them from Ratfinx of all things for low hp.
But.
They wiped five times on the trash. The party as a whole, no matter what the rest of them did, couldn't beat the Fausts fast enough, and Hummel came in with max stacks each time. The reason? The new bard refused to use WAnderer's Minuet.
It was brought up. The excuse? "I don't like it." It was pointed out the extra damage was needed to clear damage. "I don't want to use it, I shouldn't have to."
The run was abandoned, rather than the player in question being kicked. But honestly, people will put up with a lot of shit in dungeons. I see low hp and I go "ah, guess this is gonna take an extra five minutes, but hey, I get a second chance point!" Honestly, in sohr khai I'd big pull the first time anyway, hp is never an indication of skill, if we wiped I'd just split it up.
But let's be serious here. You need to wait five minutes before initiating a kick. There is, at MOST, like what, four pulls before boss one? Two, and that's being generous to the two trash mobs before the first door at minimum. How many times did the party wipe, or how friggin' long did it take to get just up to the first boss for them to not have reached it before initiating a kick?
Sure, it's shitty to kick someone for not dpsing enough. I'll never just kick someone because their damage is low. But if the response to "use enochian, it increases your damage", "you really need to use WM/GB because your best skills are locked behind it", "blood of the dragon is important at 60" or whatever is either "I play how I want to, stop impeding me having fun" or just flat out dismissal ("I'm watching Netflix." I've literally heard that as a reason.) I will absolutely initiate a kick to see if the party agrees that your lazy ass needs to get out of my dungeon and use their toolkit to the best of your ability.
(and ftr, a blm doing fire1 until oom, transposing, and then blizzarding until transpose is back off cooldown? Not good enough for 60 content. Sorry.) -
02-14-2017, 08:41 AMUnderdog2204
I just see it as if you don't wanna be kicked for low dps wear the appropriate gear and do decent dps... Really no other way around it.
People seem to conflate "mentor" with meaning "carry lazy people"... Urm how about no? -
02-14-2017, 08:48 AMSundayTrash
First, I can understand if the op was kick but twice in a row, op must been doing something wrong, and it might not even be the mentor that kicked u, it might been initiated by other party member.
Second, If op only have 2-3 a day to play this is more than thats is more play time than most casual and is enough to fully gear up with lore gear in 2 days by doing arf or hunts.
Third, op made no mention of their rotation, all I heard was how much their heavy shot does, which makes me they wouldn't keeping ss up, and not using flaming arrow or quick nock and rain of death when there are 3+ targets together. -
02-14-2017, 09:02 AMNixxeQuote:
Originally Posted by RLofOBFL
There's a pretty big difference between kicking someone after a few pulls on the same boss because they're such a detriment to the group that you will not be able to succeed with them in your party and kicking people who are a slight inconvenience or maybe just need an extra pull to get things down, especially if they're new to the dungeon or especially to the game. Especially in low level dungeons, they are tuned very loosely so that virtually any group will succeed, though it's possible a wipe may occur if someone really screws up. In such instances, patience with newer players to allow them to practice and gentle encouragement are probably much more helpful in the long run than kicking them for slightly inconveniencing the group, though I know it may be hard for many people to realize that because they'll never see the direct payoff of such an investment, though they still benefit from it, whether they realize it or not. -
02-14-2017, 09:11 AMUnderdog2204Or they might just carry on as they are... You cannot determine the outcome with any degree of certainty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixxe
A vote kick could well be the thing to kick them into gear to get better... I wanna know how you are so certain that the outcome you state is the only correct one. I know if I got kicked for poor performance I'd go off and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
But considering how low the general performance is of random people we can come across I'd say a slap round the head is exactly what some people need. Got a tank give me hugs the other day for "not being a bad MCH"... I was flattered but it's telling how people really seem to enjoy themselves more when everyone pulls their weight. -
02-14-2017, 09:15 AMNixxeI'm not guaranteeing anything on an individual level and it would be foolish to interpret my post as such. I am talking about the cultivation of a friendly and forgiving environment where people aren't afraid to ask for help or worried that the smallest mistake will get them kicked. The opposite of such an environment exists in WoW's random content, and I've seen its effects. It leads to people who are unwilling to say if they don't know something and unwilling to take or ask for even the smallest bit of advice because it all comes off as criticism when scathing remarks are handed out like candy on Halloween, which leads to a generally poorer random experience for everyone, even the people who are not directly targeted by such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog2204
-
02-14-2017, 09:21 AMUnderdog2204Whilst I agree with your sentiment group content with random people is not the place to ask for help on the basics... At lvl 60 anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixxe
Questions on how to do things on bosses etc I've never seen anyone have a problem with, the only problems I come across are when people do not know the basics of their job. So questions are good and I doubt many people are gonna get kicked for asking one, but expecting random people going through the basics (mentor or not) is being entitled (not that I'm saying that's your stance).
Strangers are under no obligations to help anyone.