New Prelim Tank updates

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

Those PLD buffs are very nice, and I'm glad they're getting them. I feel like now DRK is going to be the one left in the dust though...

---

I'm just sad because I'll no longer feel exclusive as PLD, since everyone will now be playing as PLD again, then I may have to go back to NIN if so (hope me getting Almace and Ancile wasn't for nothing).

You sure you wanted to be a PLD in the first place if you're willing to give it up just because it might be flavor of the month?

If more people in dungeons are going tank, won't that mean that wait times for the other classes won't be as garbage? That's cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You sure you wanted to be a PLD in the first place if you're willing to give it up just because it might be flavor of the month?

---

Like all the ninja mains who went dark knight?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I'm just sad because I'll no longer feel exclusive as PLD, since everyone will now be playing as PLD again, then I may have to go back to NIN if so (hope me getting Almace and Ancile wasn't for nothing).

---

Wait, I don't get it. PLD being exclusive to you is quite invalid considering PLD has been popular because of how "easy" it is to use. It's like "BEING WAR DOESN'T FEEL EXCLUSIVE TO ME ANYMORE". Quite asinine if I have to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violette

Like all the ninja mains who went dark knight?

---

It was nice. Sped up duty finder queues for dps. We should give those guys flowers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orpheus65478

Between the pal and mnk buffs. No reason to take drk anymore.

---

I'm sure you have your reason to come to this conclusion but i have to ask you one thing: what?

all tanks are pretty similar when it comes to mitigation, unless new content tank busters are physical nature and happen to come out every 30s. in this case content would be just bad designed for DRK.
The PLD buffs just bring it closer to WAR and DRK when it comes to damage (buffs equal +900 pot before buffs in a 3min fight, which is not as much as one might think). for tanking nothing has changed much at all. reduced divine veil recast is a nice utility boost, the ability to trigger it by your own heal isn't really though, as for serious content your healers should know how it works (similar to healers having to know how to deal with living dead).
DRK hasn't changed but was good before so it's not all of a sudden bad...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orpheus65478

Between the pal and mnk buffs. No reason to take drk anymore.

---

This kind of bugs me as a DRK main all the tanks are pretty much equal at this point now compared to what career paladin tanks were used to: doing content and clearing it with their static. However when Alex Savage came to be paladin tanks either switched or just quit tanking altogether and to me that is pretty bad design for a MMO. I would rather all tanks be on par with each other but bring different abilities and play styles if they all played exactly the same it would be quite bland and boring. Excluding a tank from all content while others are doing is just bad period i'm going to continue playing DRK because in my static and effort i've put in to continue playing a DRk there's nothing wrong or bad about them.

13 pages.. all the hype lol.....

Disclaimer: I didn't read all those pages.. Too tired/lazy. :p

I am glad PLD finally got some love it needed. But here are my thoughts:

- DPS potency buffs probably were the "easy way" to do it. It, in my humble opinion, takes away from the niche the class was supposed to have. But hey, PLD needed something, and it got it.

- Oaths and Grit no longer break combos but are still on GCD. Good change. They never should've broken combos. They still need to be on GCD because they benefit the effectiveness of the current HP (unlike WAR which doesn't get any additional HP by just turning on Defiance).

- ShO reduces damage by 15% only. Good change. PLD does 6.25% more DPS/aggro (without considering other potency and enmity increases). This will probably help PLD "keep up" with the rest.

- ShO, Grit and Defiance generate more enmity... Meh... I guess WAR OT can spam moar BBs? lel.

- Divine Veil buff..... YESSSS!

- Clemency, great. However, a 0 damage GCD on the lowest DPS class. Couple this with Flash, /sadpanda.

- TP cost reduction... Another needed fix, albeit boring.

- PLD STILL has no meaningful AoE DPS. Probably won't matter in end-game unless we get a second A2S-like encounter. But that will still make PLD the least favored for speed runs. PLD tanking 2 or more targets will suffer at least a couple of 0 damage GCDs.

- There are no fixes to PLD and DRK OT capabilities, they can't even come close to WAR.

- WAR is still not wanted to MT, if anything because the other two can't compete in the OT spot.

- DRK and PLD still won't be a thing. No slashing debuff. Bad OT utility. At least TP is not an issue, I guess?

TL;DR: nice and needed buffs, but the choice is still WAR + any other tank (including second WAR). Not much is "fixed".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

TL;DR: nice and needed buffs, but the choice is still WAR + any other tank (including second WAR). Not much is "fixed".

---

+1

inb4 "Quit complaining"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

+1

inb4 "Quit complaining"

---

lel... I'm not complaining... yet. Only tank I can play decently is WAR. I hate PLD and I space out too much on dork.

I want to, however, complain about MCH Rook Hypercharge not buffing magic damage. I'm tempted to go BRD in my static because BRD + MCH + DRG is probably better raid DPS than Foe-less caster. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

At least TP is not an issue, I guess?

---

Sadly, it's far too easy to floor a Paladin's TP. And a 10 TP reduction cost to Fast Blade probably won't change that at all, however SE seems intent on us Pally's throwing out heals and stoneskins now an then to adjust for this. At least that's how I've come to understand it. Still, it makes a little sad. ;^;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violette

It's not my job to keep dps from dying as a tank.

---

I would argue that it very much is when it is in your ability to do so... and who wouldn't want such a thing? Naturally not having to would be an ideal run for the perfectionist but I think most people happily embrace the opportunity to help save a run from the brink of potential failure by acknowledging the existence of human error even in the best of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torunya

Sadly, it's far too easy to floor a Paladin's TP. And a 10 TP reduction cost to Fast Blade probably won't change that at all, however SE seems intent on us Pally's throwing out heals and stoneskins now an then to adjust for this. At least that's how I've come to understand it. Still, it makes a little sad. ;^;

---

I'm inclined to agree. I'm sure the TP adjustments will help, but I can't imagine that they will actually "fix" the problem. This is not the first time that they have adjusted Pld TP costs. With increasing skill speeds (especially on Pld), it's not impossible that Pld's will be right back in the same boat that they are in now by the end of the expansion life cycle. Even with these changes, they still have the highest Tp draw out of the three tanks, which puts them at a disadvantage in any fight in which they can maintain their attack.

Quite frankly, as nice as these changes are, they didn't really "fix" anything when it comes to Pld. They still have the lowest Dps. They still have the highest TP draw (despite having the lowest Dps). Their defense is still on par with the other two (not ahead, like SE would like us all to believe). They still have questionable OT utility (lets face it, Clem and DV changes are not substantial enough to make a difference to the way they are used now), and they are still not balanced with the other two tanks. War's are still hands down the preferred OT. Drk's are still hands down the preferred MT. Pld's are just there. None of these changes bring anything new to Pld's that make losing a Drk on MT worth it, so in the end nothing has changed.

The only true plus side to these changes is that Pld's are getting a spike to their enmity that might help them establish a better lead in the event that they do, in fact, end up getting used for MT. That should make dungeon runs a little less frustrating when it comes to micro-managing enmity, as well, but, other than that, there's nothing here to get overly excited about. I was kind of expecting it, but it doesn't make it any less disappointing.

Maybe they want main tank mp to floor to encourage tank swapping?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

snip

---

I would say that PLD absolutely is preferable over a DRK for the OT slot at this point, in a vacuum anyway. Remember that OTs frequently have to handle the same mechanics that DPS do, and are often denied 100% uptime, making DV and Clem much easier to use combined with the changes.

DRK only has such a stranglehold on the MT slot because, if you have one, you never want them to OT. Its a waste, because the other two tanks can offer all of their utility that they bring in the MT slot in the OT slot with equal or greater ease.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

I would say that PLD absolutely is preferable over a DRK for the OT slot at this point, in a vacuum anyway. Remember that OTs frequently have to handle the same mechanics that DPS do, and are often denied 100% uptime, making DV and Clem much easier to use combined with the changes.

---

By that same point, OT Tanks have to contribute to stringent Dps checks involving add mechanics. To which, Pld's bring almost nothing to the table, especially when self casting which is a dps loss of 100%. Given that the HW fights have been more about Dps checks than actual Raid Mechanics, the utility of Pld's in that position is the absolute lowest among all the tanks (not including the new fights, which I am really hoping are not as bloody stupid as the current ones).

I do agree though. SE has pigeon holed the Tank jobs too much. Drk really needed OT support. When you have a Drk in the group, regardless of what the other tank is, Drk's are MT, because there's really no better option. Pld's are at least get the option of being OT when there is a Drk in the party, so that's nice...

At this point, if there are two things that I would ask for from SE, it is that Drk gets some kind of OT support, and that Pld gets an actual solution to their TP problem instead of just a band-aid. There are several other, little, things that could and should be addressed, but these are the biggest two, and they should have been addressed with this patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

Snip.

---

I said it in my previous post, as long as PLD + DRK is not a thing, nothing is fixed. EPSECIALLY when w are at a point where people have rerolled into DRK and WAR. Only thing that changed is some DRKs will revert back to PLD. WAR is still the preferred OT, if anything it's because the other two can't OT as well (Because no one that knows a little math can argue WAR's MT mitigation and DPS against the other two).

We are still at a point where out only consideration is the following:

MT: DRK or PLD.

OT: WAR with a crown.

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

I'm inclined to agree. I'm sure the TP adjustments will help, but I can't imagine that they will actually "fix" the problem. This is not the first time that they have adjusted Pld TP costs. With increasing skill speeds (especially on Pld), it's not impossible that Pld's will be right back in the same boat that they are in now by the end of the expansion life cycle. Even with these changes, they still have the highest Tp draw out of the three tanks, which puts them at a disadvantage in any fight in which they can maintain their attack.

---

They (Paladins) also have 4 or 5 (Flash, Stoneskin, Clemency, Shield/Sword Oath and possibly Cure) "free" GCD actions and no non-combo single GCD TP users that can be interwoven into the 9 GCD GB -> RA -> RA/RoH combo rotation. This could be something to consider at skill speeds that drop Paladin GCDs below 2.4 sec (i.e. 10 GCDs per Goring Blade dot).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

They (Paladins) also have 4 or 5 (Flash, Stoneskin, Clemency, Shield/Sword Oath and possibly Cure) "free" GCD actions and no non-combo single GCD TP users that can be interwoven into the 9 GCD GB -> RA -> RA/RoH combo rotation. This could be something to consider at skill speeds that drop Paladin GCDs below 2.4 sec (i.e. 10 GCDs per Goring Blade dot).

---

Fracture DoT potency 20->25 would make it a possibility (probably with TP 80->90 to keep the same cross-class efficiency)... if we weren't already going to be TP-starved, and of course WAR dps being as it is. This is why the weaponskill Shield Swipe was actually preferred by us unfortunately high-SS PLDs. Less than a % dps increase, but 20 TP saved (now 10 with the concurrent GB change to 50 TP). For now though, at least it would mean we aren't losing a tick when swapping stances.

@Phoencia
At least the Vit changes have one other nice side-effect. MT and OT are no longer split by gear, only by Provoke. If we need Reprisal for upcoming damage, the DRK need only swap in in time for a parry. With this we might just see soft-swapping become more prevalent again. WAR might even be willing to use RI and Vengeance for their mitigation atop their Abandon/Wrath generation. Still doesn't really excuse those toolkit inabilities, but at least makes them workable, as true OT/MT segregation doesn't need be a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

---

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

---

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

---

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then. WAR also has Equilibrium (which they didn't nerf, which is kinda surprising) and SW which are both great for cleaves and busters. Bunch of interesting options available to WAR as MT that could be utilized, though I guess we'll see if that ever is necessary or optimal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

---

That problem shows how "badly" designed DRK and PLD toolkits compared to WAR and then how encounters are designed to cover for those "bad designs" in mind. Currently WAR can mitigate EVERY ENCOUNTER in game better than either of other tanks with its kit. Give or take magical encounters where DRK can get close. WAR does not MT not because the other two are better MTs (WAR is better MT), WAR does not MT because the other two SUCK at OT while they don't do that much worse than a WAR MT.

This is basically me reiterating what I wrote before in other posts under other threads that involve tank balance.

Excess cleaves existed in every encounter from T1 in Binding Coil up to T9 in Second Coil and all the primals that came out during these patches (from Titan HM up to Titan Extreme including Moggle Mog Ex.) with mechanics having tank swap intended. But seeing how people cheesed through those with gear, healer CD coordination or just power through (with WAR proving superior because of higher DPS and less gaps in defense), SE started moving to simultaneous tanking as can be seen with Leviathan and T10 through to 13 where tanks needed to keep 2 mobs away or they kill party or other wise share damage or tanks get destroyed. Instead of "Fixing" PLD to have less CD gaps to keep up with WAR, SE chose to keep both tanks busy or wipe.

"But Phoenicia, PLD CDs are superior to WAR's!" you may ask... But not really, while one on one, PLD has more magnitude only than WAR, but WAR's gapless kit allows them to "open" gaps in order to "combine" CDs for superior effects. For example: Each time PLD "needs" rampart, WAR matches it with just IB, but because WAR can, it would ALWAYS combine IB with something else (ToB, Vengeance, RI, Foresight, cheese, pasta, macaroni). For any case PLD "needs" Sentinel, WAR may lack behind with Vengeance, but it can still throw IB for a superior effect (Sentinel is 40%, Vengeance + IB is 46% + 400 potency heal). Note: I didn't fat finger that, IB ignores defiance penalty, so 300/75% = 400 compared to he rest of its attacks. (Another reason why I can argue WAR MT is NOT outDPS'd by dork MTs).

I will stop before this becomes another massive wall of text though. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

We are still at a point where out only consideration is the following:

MT: DRK or PLD.

OT: WAR with a crown.

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

---

Exactly. Like I said before, the changes are nice, but, in the end, they haven't really "fixed" anything. Everyone still has a pre-established role:

• War + Drk = War OT + Drk MT.
• War + Pld = War OT + Pld MT
• Drk + Pld = Pld OT + Drk MT

Everyone is pigeon holed into a specific roll. Drk's, in particular, get the short end of the stick, because no matter who they are slotted with they are always considered MT. In that regard, they REALLY could have used something to make them a viable OT. That said, Drk and War is still the ideal combination, and there's no real reason to replace Drk with Pld.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

They (Paladins) also have 4 or 5 (Flash, Stoneskin, Clemency, Shield/Sword Oath and possibly Cure) "free" GCD actions and no non-combo single GCD TP users that can be interwoven into the 9 GCD GB -> RA -> RA/RoH combo rotation. This could be something to consider at skill speeds that drop Paladin GCDs below 2.4 sec (i.e. 10 GCDs per Goring Blade dot).

---

Like I said before, Pld's will be in the same boat they are now. The fact is that, to maintain their Tp, Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps by casting moves which do 0 dmg and are situational at best. Clemency, Stone skin, and Oath swapping, all have a specific utility. A Pld should be using them for those utilities, not because they are suddenly desperate for TP. No other tank in the game has to waste a turn of their GCD just to maintain their TP bar (though, Drk's can get close if the fight drags on long enough). Given that Pld's already have the lowest overall Dps (and only 3 dmg dealing oGCD's), it is mind blowing that SE has failed, yet again, to address this problem.

They probably should have made Clemency also not interrupt combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BadRNG

Not breaking combo is great but I am disappointed Grit/Oaths are still on GCD. (The new skill countdown UI picture shows Grit with a GCD still)

Also congrats PLD on all the damage buffs, definitely higher than I expected.

edit - Woah woah woah, there's no MP cost in that picture either, Grit no longer costs MP? That'd be huge if so.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_97.png

---

None of the stances cost resources if they are active and you wish to deactivate them. They only cost to activate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then.

---

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.
On T13, Flatten is on a 1 minute timer, it's plenty of time to properly rotate your CD.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps

---

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.

---

Sorry, just noticed I used the incorrect symbol. Meant <30s, in which case Sheltron wouldn't be available.

Quote:

---

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

---

If we're talking Odin at minimum ilvls then WAR would never be out of Defiance because he hits like a truck, but Unchained would be used whenever it's available - ideally with Berserk and Bloodbath. But I think T13 works as a better example as you can quite literally mitigate every Flare Breath and every Flatten with IB (and double IB every other Infuriate).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

---

Lol. Alright, alright. "Abysmal" might be a bit of an exaggeration, especially with the new buffs, but the point remains the same. No other job in the game has to actively sabotage their rotation just to stay in the fight, and Pld's Mp draws should be used for utility, not a stop-gap measure when they run out of TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Happy for loltron and 20 potency increase in mah rotations.

---

^^^ No offence though.

Doesn't matter. Even if PLD was buffed to do 5k DPS and take 0 damage, literally. DRK gets knocked out, and WAR will be brought in just so PLD cab do 5.5k instead.

Also Sheltron isn't "so great" and in your T13 example, for every "proper rotated CD" the PLD uses, WAR can throw a "better option". Also Sheltron only "forces" a block, something that could happen without Sheltron. And it would only block Flatten. WAR can get the random parry (no matter how low the chance is) for even more mitigation than PLD's options. Also for every 2 Sheltrons, WAR can heal for way more than whatever damage 2 Sheltrons block with Equilibrium. Stop getting blinded by fat numbers.

Compare the following effects vs frequency:

IB > Ramps. But IB heals 400 potency. IB can happen 5.5 times every 1 ramps CD. 5.5 x 6 = 33s. ~40% uptime and 5.5x 400 potency healing = 2200 potency total.

ToB + Conv. < Ramps. ~17% vs 20% DR and 120s vs 90s. Also let's not forget that ToB is a direct 20% effective HP increase REGARDLESS of current HP, so if PLD is at 80% or less HP it Ramps is weaker than ToB. Also, combine it with IB so ToB + Conv + IB >>>>>>>>> Ramps.

Vengeance vs Sentinel? Yes, 30% vs 40%. But 120s vs 180s CD and 15s vs 10s duration. Again, combine IB + Veng >>>>>>>>> Sentinel because 400 heal + 46% mitigation + counter + 15s duration + 33% shorter CD vs 40% and 10s over 3 minutes.

RI vs lolwark. Reliability vs Magnitude chance. 90s vs 180s CD. 20s vs 15s duration. Obvious here. I don't care if you block 50% if Flatten is gonna rearrange your face because RNG decided to block the auto before and after but not the buster.

Holmgang vs HG. Yeah, HG is immunity, Holm is immortality. But for every HG, 3 holmgangs can be used, that's 3 mechanics cheased instead of one, considering the above structure? WAR needs to cheese less.


Now an example T13 rotation:

Sentinel vs IB + Veng.

Rampart vs IB + ToB.

PLD is forced to HG somewhere, WAR lols and IB+ToB.

PLD is back to Sentinel, WAR IB + Veng.

PLD ramps vs WAR IB + ToB.

In a 5 Flatten push during the first two phases PLD eats 7 flare breaths unmitigated that WAR scoffs off with IB with 2 Unchained uses.

PLD eats first Akh Morn without CD because ramps/sent. were used on Twintania, WAR IB's and ToB because it can and lols.

Double WAR combinations just IB + ToB or Veng. alternatively on all Akh Morns, they don't even need to HG. WAR will also use 2 Unchained CDs during the last phase if they carry over their stacks after Twin dies.

Double PLD set up goes into CD headaches.

All the while WAR MT does twice the DPS of loladin MT.

Regardless of who is better at what:

The problem still stands, No one would consider the DRK/PLD combination. WAR sits on the OT spot with a crown and a feather on its head while laughing at the other two tanks Pickering at each other for the MT spot, which WAR could easily push them aside and "show them how it's done" because it can also do it better.

There, I bold'd, italic'd, and underlined it and even colored it red in case you missed it. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

^^^ No offence though.

---

None taken.
Except there a tiny itsy bitsy miscalculation on your part. Goring was buffed by a 100 potency when you include DoT.
It's now the highest potency WS, above Chaos Thrust. And I'll wait to see how much more RA does the enmity boost on Savage Blade allows.

I don't need more math on how WAR is a beast even when considering pure mitigation. I don't need more math on how WAR is a beast when considering DPS. I know both of that.
But, using its mitigation means not using its full DPS potency. Replacing a Fell Cleave by an Inner Beast is a huge drop.

The T13 example is not really accurate to compare current jobs, as Sheltron wasn't available. If it were, you'd have to add Sheltron to each Flatten. And since it's perfectly doable to survive a Flatten with only Rampart and without a block, Sheltron could free the PLD from using HG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

No one would consider the DRK/PLD combination. WAR sits on the OT spot with a crown and a feather on its head while laughing at the other two tanks Pickering at each other for the MT spot, which WAR could easily push them aside and "show them how it's done" because it can also do it better.

---

I wasn't talking about WAR as an OT. I was just commenting on what SpookyGhost thinks of fight that would favors WAR as an MT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

---

Were I to build a party for that fight, I'd still take a PLD as MT and WAR as OT, unless all those cleaves are magical.

I think everyone gets in some way Warrior is the best of the three tanks at the moment and because of Warriors godly status they are the poster boy of the "working as intended" excuse when the truth is they don't want to nerf Warrior because SE lacks the balls to piss off the nerds that play the class. Warrior should have been nerfed and PLD only needed a buff in the utility department.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

+ 400 potency heal). Note: I didn't fat finger that, IB ignores defiance penalty, so 300/75% = 400

---

???

It's 300 potency, it's not 400 - 25% via Defiance, therefore ignores Defiance and deals 400 Potency. It's 300 Potency bypassing Defiance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starbirth

I think everyone gets in some way Warrior is the best of the three tanks at the moment and because of Warriors godly status they are the poster boy of the "working as intended" excuse when the truth is they don't want to nerf Warrior because SE lacks the balls to piss off the nerds that play the class. Warrior should have been nerfed and PLD only needed a buff in the utility department.

---

I rather liked that they implied Fell Cleave was the most nerf-worthy thing about WAR. That made me chuckle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starbirth

when the truth is they don't want to nerf Warrior because SE lacks the balls to piss off the nerds that play the class.

---

Quote:

---

Main Class
Gladiator Lv 60

---

Ah. I see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Ah. I see.

---

Quote:

---

Main Class
Marauder Lv 60

---

Not getting involved (even though SE stated that they don't like nerfing in general because it upsets people, a.k.a they don't have the balls to nerf it after the NIN incident)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Ah. I see.

---

Quote:

---

Main Class
Marauder Lv 60

---

Seriously bro, better make sure you got your bases covered next time before taking a low blow.

Some of these discussions are funny, entertaining at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

I rather liked that they implied Fell Cleave was the most nerf-worthy thing about WAR. That made me chuckle.

---

Warrior can keep fell cleave and their dps but nerf its utility and defensive capabilities a bit.