Diadem and Savage - I can't deal with it anymore

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Originally Posted by Archaell

If I may ask, what would make you interested in the savage? Because that's the most important question. Casuals need way more motivation than hc raiders to try something hard.

Developing content for only small portion of the playerbase isn't wise... but you can develop content for the hardcore raiders and at the same time make it appealing enough for the casuals, even though it would take them longer to achieve their goals.

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Having a solo version. Relying on 7 other people is not my cup of tea. I grew very frustrated about it back in the Final Coil seeing people make the same mistakes over and over and my free time after work and before bed melt away and end up with frustration instead of a fun time. So I just quit endgame. This is an MMO, so asking for what I want is kind of absurd, so I just completely ignore raiding and not even consider it part of the game.

I agree. We should definitely get more raids and even harder regular dungeons. I've been saying for a long time that for a game that brings so much profit to a company that their team remains so small is baffling. This is one of the reasons why they probably need to keep choosing between what to release. I'm all for hardcores getting their share of content as well.

What I don't agree with is when other people complain like the OP is saying, which basically is that no one outside of Savage deserves i210, especially when it doesn't affect them in the least. It's obviously just the hurt put on the superiority complex.

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Originally Posted by hagare

Because you need to be a pro to say the truth on something?
Then I guess to you every movie is good, every food is delicious, and every athlete is good enough to make it to the pros.

He may not raid savage, but you know what he said is true about not needing diadem gear to clear savage.
Unless all those clear stats before 3.1 are fake.
Unless of course the problem you have is with a non-raider saying the truth.

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Nope. He's failing to take into account people's varying skill levels and the amount of time they have to dedicate to raiding, though. My static is on A3S right now, and progress is slow at best. We're not as skilled or as dedicated to raiding as the likes of Elysium and Lucrezia, and I'll be the first to admit that. We also had some awful roster issues back in A2S that almost entirely kept us from raiding for a little over two weeks. The thing is, we still enjoy tackling the harder content in the game. So what, if we can't pass it at our current item level we don't deserve to clear and we should just hang it up and go home? Or maybe we should just keep beating our heads against it till either the static breaks up or we break through the wall we're at? It seems more reasonable to obtain more gear and keep trying since that loosens the DPS checks and makes it easier to survive some mechanics.

Do the best of the best need more gear to clear? No, but many other people arguably do, and I find it more than a little amusing to have what amounts to a backseat driver telling me what I need or don't need to achieve what I want to achieve in the game.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

Not only have I not tried A4S. I haven't any of the Savage turns; because I'm not interested. How would me raiding or not be relevant to my point?

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Since it seems to elude you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credibility

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/credibility

http://www.monash.edu.au/lls/llonlin...academic/2.xml

Get some credibility, otherwise you're acting a bit presumptuous.

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If at this point you are still trying to finish Savage you are not hardcore; the OP is referring to the hardcore section of the playerbase. If you are among those who push for world clears and that sort of stuff, the hardcore base, then I say it again, you should reconsider your approach to FFXIV.

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"doesn't raid alex savage, has plenty of things to say about it and the players participating in it"

Cool, keep speaking from ignorance, you are so good at it.

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Yoshida: Yes! Let's definitely keep developing to those 0.1% of players you just mentioned and leave whatever time we can spare to the 99.9%. I'm sure the board of directors will give me a huge Christmas bonus from the killing numbers we'll make in revenue!

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Yeah! because we can only cater to absolutes! There is no way we can find a balance that exists in other MMO's! There is only Give everything to casuals or give everything to hardcore! Please continue to be hyperbolic, it shows how poor your arguments are.

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Grow up.

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How about you grow up. In the real world, you have to work for your supper. I wish I lived in your world where I can just show up, mouth breath and roll my face across the key board and have everything handed to me.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

Not relevant. That's like saying you need to be a politician to comment on politics. What I said in your quote about not needing Diadem for Savage is a fact, not an opinion.

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You are not merely commenting, you are acting like an authority making wild claims about what makes a person a hardcore or not in addition to what players deserve if they can't contend with a4s.

If anything, your the exact problem with the political system. A person who is very opinionated while being poorly informed.

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Originally Posted by hagare

Because you need to be a pro to say the truth on something?
Then I guess to you every movie is good, every food is delicious, and every athlete is good enough to make it to the pros.

He may not raid savage, but you know what he said is true about not needing diadem gear to clear savage.
Unless all those clear stats before 3.1 are fake.
Unless of course the problem you have is with a non-raider saying the truth.

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I have a problem with people passing any sort of judgment on a player's achievements without walking in their shoes. It's straight up ignorance. Yes, I have a problem with ignorant people making assertions from ignorance. Its one of the most frustrating things to deal with on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Nope. He's failing to take into account people's varying skill levels and the amount of time they have to dedicate to raiding, though. My static is on A3S right now, and progress is slow at best. We're not as skilled or as dedicated to raiding as the likes of Elysium and Lucrezia, and I'll be the first to admit that. We also had some awful roster issues back in A2S that almost entirely kept us from raiding for a little over two weeks. The thing is, we still enjoy tackling the harder content in the game. So what, if we can't pass it at our current item level we don't deserve to clear and we should just hang it up and go home? Or maybe we should just keep beating our heads against it till either the static breaks up or we break through the wall we're at? It seems more reasonable to obtain more gear and keep trying since that loosens the DPS checks and makes it easier to survive some mechanics.

Do the best of the best need more gear to clear? No, but many other people arguably do, and I find it more than a little amusing to have what amounts to a backseat driver telling me what I need or don't need to achieve what I want to achieve in the game.

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that truth just crit for 9999!

That\\'s not really true. Some people just see this for what it is. A game. Some of us are busy putting in greater effort in our daily lives where it matters and can\\'t afford to invest 100 hours in to raiding. Casual people pay for the game just like everyone else. Based on the entitlement logic we don\\'t need/or should want good gear because we don\\'t have the time to raid. Only raiders should have this because they are best. They have to treat everyone fairly because we are all paying customers. They have to give multiple options for the people who can\\'t raid. Diadem gear was made to help casuals catch up so they can do things like Thordan ex and future content. I\\'m paying like everyone else but if I don\\'t have the gear then I\\'m locked out if future. The people who have time to spare have more items than the same old casuals who can\\'t spam it for hours on end barely have any.They made the gear look different and added RNG so that the raid gear would still be special. Raiders are of course mad because they want to be special because of their hard work. They are special but they need highest level gear to tell them. They have gear most of us will never have but they aren\\'t satisfied. In the real world the hardest working people don\\'t always have the highest salary.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Bad example. Politicians set laws for and govern everyone, including non-politicians, so being interested in politics is reasonable. Raiders and non-raiders really don't have that same interaction. A better example would be someone that only watches football telling a college quarterback that he's not good enough for the NFL so he should just hang it up and go play PeeWee football instead.

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Actually there is some truth to it. They may not generate the content, but they are the ones that are being developed for at the high-end, with there being a huge gap from there to the next hardest content. So, while indirectly so, they do dictate the success and failure of the end-game, even if not directly (which also, a vast number of politicians are in that boat, probably to the same extent of 'Raiders who are not devs' to 'Raiders who are devs', especially with the current clear numbers).

I still see many people fixating on the same retort. You can have your bloody 210 gear, go nuts in Diadem and get all the gear you can carry. The issue is that Diadem gear can be and is higher than end-game raid gear. This doesn't make sense on any level. The highest level should always give the best reward, just think about it logically.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Nope. He's failing to take into account people's varying skill levels and the amount of time they have to dedicate to raiding, though. My static is on A3S right now, and progress is slow at best. We're not as skilled or as dedicated to raiding as the likes of Elysium and Lucrezia, and I'll be the first to admit that. We also had some awful roster issues back in A2S that almost entirely kept us from raiding for a little over two weeks. The thing is, we still enjoy tackling the harder content in the game. So what, if we can't pass it at our current item level we don't deserve to clear and we should just hang it up and go home? Or maybe we should just keep beating our heads against it till either the static breaks up or we break through the wall we're at? It seems more reasonable to obtain more gear and keep trying since that loosens the DPS checks and makes it easier to survive some mechanics.

Do the best of the best need more gear to clear? No, but many other people arguably do, and I find it more than a little amusing to have what amounts to a backseat driver telling me what I need or don't need to achieve what I want to achieve in the game.

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To clarify, when I said that no one needs the Diadem drops for Savage I was referring to the hardcore group of players. People who are casually progressing are a much wider group and, like you said, will have many different skill levels and usually welcome things like Diadem because it pushes ilvls a bit faster so they can progress within the raid.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

That\\'s not really true. Some people just see this for what it is. A game. Some of us are busy putting in greater effort in our daily lives where it matters and can\\'t afford to invest 100 hours in to raiding. Casual people pay for the game just like everyone else.

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Yes, because all raiders have no real lives. I certainly don't have a research career, a family, friends, bills to pay, a clock to punch. Yeah, I have none of those things on my plate. You can't spend 100 hours on raiding? Do you think I just sat in my chair and raided 100 hours last week? Those 100 hours span five months. That's 20 hours a month, that's four hours a week. You certainly play this game more than four hours a week so don't trot out this "I have a busy life argument." We are all busy, stop making excuses for yourself and your unwillingness to try hard content.

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Based on the entitlement logic we don\\'t need/or should want good gear because we don\\'t have the time to raid. Only raiders should have this because they are best. They have to treat everyone fairly because we are all paying customers. They have to give multiple options for the people who can\\'t raid.

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You are treated fairly. You can raid alex savage you just choose not to. Also, ilvl 200 gear is very good gear! Good enough to clear many of the hardest fights currently in the game. How much better does your gear need to be? I want and need full ilvl 210 for the next raid tier in 3.2. Why do non-raiders need 210 gear if they are not going to be pushing the bleeding edge of progression?

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Diadem gear was made to help casuals catch up so they can do things like Thordan ex and future content.

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Thordan is easily doable in full ilvl 200, so there was no catch up needed. If the next primal will be easier than thordan and casual players don't raid, why do they need to be caught up to ilvl 210 when full ivl 200 is really not that far behind? They are not going to raid in 3.2 and the dungeon/primal requirements are low enough, so why do they need full 210?

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I\\'m paying like everyone else but if I don\\'t have the gear then I\\'m locked out if future. The people who have time to spare have more items than the same old casuals who can\\'t spam it for hours on end barely have any.They made the gear look different and added RNG so that the raid gear would still be special. Raiders are of course mad because they want to be special because of their hard work. They are special but they need highest level gear to tell them. They have gear most of us will never have but they aren\\'t satisfied.

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Alex normal gear looks exactly like savage gear. The only difference is one is dyable. One of the best looking color palate is already locked to normal alex gear, so whats so special about being able to dye alex savage gear a less appealing color?

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In the real world the hardest working people don\\'t always have the highest salary.

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So you want to promote that same injustice here that the hardest working people should get the shaft?

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Originally Posted by Arashmin

Actually there is some truth to it. They may not generate the content, but they are the ones that are being developed for at the high-end, with there being a huge gap from there to the next hardest content. So, while indirectly so, they do dictate the success and failure of the end-game, even if not directly (which also, a vast number of politicians are in that boat, probably to the same extent of 'Raiders who are not devs' to 'Raiders who are devs', especially with the current clear numbers).

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While they both have a purpose in recieving the content (and thus the success of the game), they're entirely different spectrum on what the content is though. Ash's point is that you can't necessarily comment on the upper-level side when you have not even stepped foot or relate to it.



The matter of fact is though, there's a huge discrepancy between normal and savage mode that doesn't quite hit the middle (and in all of 3.1, only thordan hits this). In 3.0, this would have been the EX primals (on release) and A1/2), following an unusually large update drought and players are left with not much else to do. It's less about what you can get out of hte content (the gear), but the content itself . I'm personally was never interested in LoV (and hopefully this is not the case for a majority of the playerbase, otherwise its a huge waste of developmental time) and Diadem could have been much much better in encouraging FC activities rather than spawn camping.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Nope. He's failing to take into account people's varying skill levels and the amount of time they have to dedicate to raiding, though. My static is on A3S right now, and progress is slow at best. We're not as skilled or as dedicated to raiding as the likes of Elysium and Lucrezia, and I'll be the first to admit that. We also had some awful roster issues back in A2S that almost entirely kept us from raiding for a little over two weeks. The thing is, we still enjoy tackling the harder content in the game. So what, if we can't pass it at our current item level we don't deserve to clear and we should just hang it up and go home? Or maybe we should just keep beating our heads against it till either the static breaks up or we break through the wall we're at? It seems more reasonable to obtain more gear and keep trying since that loosens the DPS checks and makes it easier to survive some mechanics.

Do the best of the best need more gear to clear? No, but many other people arguably do, and I find it more than a little amusing to have what amounts to a backseat driver telling me what I need or don't need to achieve what I want to achieve in the game.

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True. People have varying skills.
What comes easy to some might not be so easy to others.
You might take longer to clear it if you don't have diadem gear, but you can finally clear it if you practice more.

But that still doesn't change fact.
Because objectively, the stats you need to clear it is already provided in the gear before 3.0
Do you need diadem gear to finally clear it? No. But it'll certainly help if you still have trouble with savage.

You don't need to be as good as elysium or lucrezia.
In some servers the content is even PUGable before 3.1

And I'm sorry but people skills, scheduling and roster problems are all on the player.
It doesn't matter what ilvl other players are wearing, because they don't effect you.

Well I know if you raid you play more than 4 hours a week because I do play more than that and still wasn't on or had interrupted time to practice savage with my FC. Most statics want 2-3 hours 2-3 days a week.On top doing other things I enjoy in the game. I can't invest time just for that.Yes 200 gear is great and that's why I'm not sending my time spamming Daidem for 210. It help will help me gear up my other jobs because I like rotating between jobs. VA and tomes have weekly caps so there is only so much gear I can get. I don't like healing all the time. My other jobs need gear too. None of my jobs are at full 200 so a few 210 peices help balance out my lower level. Everyone has different reasons for getting gear. Casual people sometimes raid. Sometimes they get together and try a raid so they can learn it in pf. If you don't have the ilvl you can't join. Now they are giving casual people a chance to catch up before the next patch. How does my gear affect you?

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Well I know if you raid you play more than 4 hours a week because I do play more than that and still wasn't on or had interrupted time to practice savage with my FC. Most statics want 2-3 hours 2-3 days a week.On top doing other things I enjoy in the game. I can't invest time just for that.Yes 200 gear is great and that's why I'm not sending my time spamming Daidem for 210. It help willhelp me gear up my other jobs because I like rotating between jobs. VA and tomes have weekly caps so there is only so much gear I can get. I don't like healing all the time. My other jobs need gear too. None of my jobs are at full 200 so a few 210 peices help balance out my lower level. Everyone has different reasons for getting gear. Casual people sometimes raid. Sometimes they get together and try a raid so they can learn it in pf. If you don't have the ilvl you can't join. Now they are giving casual people a chance to catch up before the next patch. How does my gear affect you?

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All of October, my team only raided 6 hours a week. All of July, August, and September, we only raided on the weekends. It's not a hard balancing act to accomplish.

If SE balances the 3.2 raid tier around the large stat budgets from diadem gear, then it will impact me greatly. I have lost all faith in the dev team after this raiding tier so I completely expect them to balance the next alex raid around having really good 210 diadem pieces.

I don't care that people can get gobtwines and gobcoats from hunts and void ark. I don't agree with it, but it really does not bother me because upgraded eso gear is not BiS by itself. Diadem gear trumps both upgraded eso and savage gear. It's completely unacceptable.

Six is more than four since you like to be precise but anyways. I'm glad that it works for you but not everyone has that ability. Anyways. They just need to scrap Diadem. Give the best gear to best players and unlock the tomes and VA so I can gear up my other jobs. Would that please you

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Six is more than four since you like to be precise but anyways. I'm glad that it works for you but not everyone has that ability. Anyways. They just need to scrap Diadem. Give the best gear to best players and unlock the tomes and VA so I can gear up my other jobs. Would that please you

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Just make diadem loot have the same stat budgets as the rest of the 210 gear available. That's what I want at this point. I don't want diadem gear coming with 50+ extra stat points over other 210 gear. Diadem gear should not be entirely BiS. Is that such a bad concession? I am just over it, absolutely over it that something so reasonable is so hard to fight for in this game.

I am over it and the same is true for many in this raiding community. Don't worry, we won't be around much longer. When my friends quit, I am certainly following suit and I am sure that this sentiment ripples throughout the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

To clarify, when I said that no one needs the Diadem drops for Savage I was referring to the hardcore group of players. People who are casually progressing are a much wider group and, like you said, will have many different skill levels and usually welcome things like Diadem because it pushes ilvls a bit faster so they can progress within the raid.

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The problem is, you didn't say that at all. What you said was:

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

I would like to point out that NO ONE, not a single player in this game NEEDS the drops from Diadem. If you are still unable to beat A4S after your group has been i200+ for idk how long you should consider raiding Void Ark instead of Gordias. Just saying.

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There's nothing in there about hardcore/casual. Just a blanket statement from someone who hasn't even set foot in the content who's basically taking it upon themselves to say that my static and people like us should give up on Savage since we haven't cleared it yet.

Okay then.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Just make diadem loot have the same stat budgets as the rest of the 210 gear available. That's what I want at this point. I don't want diadem gear coming with 50+ extra stat points over other 210 gear. Diadem gear should not be entirely BiS. Is that such a bad concession? I am just over it, absolutely over it that something so reasonable is so hard to fight for in this game.

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I think that'd be a pretty good compromise actually.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Just make diadem loot have the same stat budgets as the rest of the 210 gear available. That's what I want at this point. I don't want diadem gear coming with 50+ extra stat points over other 210 gear. Diadem gear should not be entirely BiS. Is that such a bad concession? I am just over it, absolutely over it that something so reasonable is so hard to fight for in this game.

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The gear honestly at this point is secondary to me. Diadem just isn't fun and I doubt this is what they had in mind when all people are doing is zerg/farming to spawn NMs Whether it's BiS or not, the journey to getting it isn't fun, just tedious and and wall-banging at worst (which can also be said for savage, since the gear incentive is technically still there.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The gear honestly at this point is secondary to me. Diadem just isn't fun and I doubt this is what they had in mind when all people are doing is zerg/farming to spawn NMs Whether it's BiS or not, the journey to getting it isn't fun, just tedious and and wall-banging at worst (which can also be said for savage, since the gear incentive is technically still there.

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It's gotten a lot less zergy since the update, tbh. You can't just all camp on one island or you run out of mobs.

People actually have to spread out and kill elsewhere now.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

It's gotten a lot less zergy since the update, tbh. You can't just all camp on one island or you run out of mobs.

People actually have to spread out and kill elsewhere now.

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Still zergy none-the-less, all you're really doing at that point is still killing mobs for drops, instead of exploring for other triggers. All it does is disperse the farming areas rather than encouraging other activities within Diadem for NM (like notorious treasure maps or actually tracking down fresh tracks.)

I can't help but laugh with a mixture of incredulity and disgust when I see all these raiders getting to bent out of shape over diadem's loot system. Is it balanced? No, not at all. And the time investment for getting an epic piece in diadem is probably equal if not better than the time investment for savage, without the skill and coordination needed. I agree on that. But at least raiding is relevant. At least there's a point to it. It's very, very easy to distinguish a savage raider versus a casual, the gear tells all. And you have a 210 weapon that cannot be beat or even equaled (yet). I've seen many posts that essentially sum up the argument in a very economical approach; high risk for high reward. I agree, though honestly the only thing you stand to lose is your time when running savage, so I would dispute the high risk factor.

All this being said, you all sit here and rant for page after page about how raid no longer has BiS (though once again, the weapons remain BiS). Here's what I have to say; at least your passion (raiding) is relevant, and actively released every 2 patches or so regardless of the small player base that is hardcore raiders. You know what isn't relevant, despite a just as large player base (well, used to be just as large)? Crafting. You sit there and rage, yet you get relevant content on the regular. Crafters? You know the last time we had content that was relevant? I'll give you a clue; ironworks gear. You know, a little less than a year ago? ilvl110 crafted gear, when HQ'ed, was relevant gear. And then there was....nothing. Then along comes heavensward, and we get our hopes up. Aand.....tada! Yay, new top-tier gear! ilvl180! I mean, sure BiS was 210 savage, but almost noone had that. So pretty much it was 10 levels lower than the obtainable BiS (alex normal). Awesome. Until you looked at the mats needed to make the gear, that is. Gated materials, and ones that were stupidly hard to obtain and make, much less HQ. And did I mention the cost of the materials? So neat, we had relevant gear to sell to players....if they had 5-10 million gil to throw away per piece. Awesome. So I, perhaps stupidly, get my hopes up for 3.1 and prepare my crafters as best I can for the superior, less stupidly expensive gear that should come out in 3.1. And here it is! It's....ilvl185! The same level of DUNGEON GEAR! Epic! And there's more! You can't meld anything onto them! Even better! So let's see; crafters get to make gear that is: 1; 25 ilvls below bis. 2; Non-meldable. 3; ugly as sin. Did I mention that they're all locked behind specialist recipe lock-outs? But hey, cooking got....one recipe! Neat! At this point, seems pretty clear to me that Yoshi and friends do NOT want crafters to be a thing in FFXIV. Wish they would just go ahead and say so.

tl;dr? Stop whining, raiders. At least you have content that is relevant, if diminished. Could be worse; your passion could have been crafting.

Just wanted to be one of the many to post that I mostly agree. About Alex savage anyway. It is boring.

I found Thor ex more exciting. And guess what? We beat thor a million times over in normal mode too. Why did I enjoy thor ex then? Because I wasn't trying to stop slap stick humor-- er, "those silly, silly, goblins" from making a big mistake! Oh look a kitty. Basically, it had a good story behind it. It had epic music instead of savages elevator music. The aesthetics were far more interesting. The mechanics were mostly the same as normal, but overall still engaging. In my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

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Tells raiders to stop whining (despite conceding their their points are valid), yet goes on to whine about crafting. Smart move there.

Crafted battle gear being nerfed and or/gated was an issue raiders had as well, btw. Plus SE have already said they'd make battle crafted gear more powerful again in 3.2.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Tells raiders to stop whining (despite conceding their their points are valid), yet goes on to whine about crafting. Smart move there.

Crafted battle gear being nerfed and or/gated was an issue raiders had as well, btw. Plus SE have already said they'd make battle crafted gear more powerful again in 3.2.

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Yet you seem to completely skip the part where raiding is still valid and viable, while crafting is far, far beyond an afterthought. As for SE saying they'll make things better in 3.2 for crafters, I'll just leave this little quote here: "While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable." ----- Yoshi-P.

If they want crafted battle gear to be relevant for 3.2, it'll have to be at least i220, ideally i225 because of the stat weight of secondary stats being crap. This is with a ceiling of i240 upgraded tomes or raid gear. I'd estimate that pentamelded with V tier should be a notch lower than i240 - enough to make it matter. But not so much that the crafted gear is trivial like the i180 was in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Yet you seem to completely skip the part where raiding is still valid and viable, while crafting is far, far beyond an afterthought.

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I could also argue that crafting is still 'valid and viable' too despite people leaving/giving up on it, like the raiding scene at present, hence you should stop whining.

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As for SE saying they'll make things better in 3.2 for crafters, I'll just leave this little quote here: "While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable." ----- Yoshi-P.

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Well that's on you whether you want to believe what SE said or not. No concern of mine.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

I could also argue that crafting is still 'valid and viable' too

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Oh? Please explain to me how ilvl185 crafted gear, which is the penultimate crafted gear atm, is anywhere NEAR non-upgraded esoterics gear. Trying to compare it to raid gear is beyond laughable. Raid gear is STILL BiS for weapon, and other than the lucky SoB's who get those stupidly good diadem rolls, it's still the BiS there as well. Furthermore, the cycle has always done this; raid release, and the gear is ALWAYS the BiS, then the next patch comes, and typically the armor/accessories of upgraded tomestone gear catches up, with the exception of weapons. Eventually, these too are equalized. Soon after, the next big patch hits with a new raid and you're BiS all over again. So despite your argument and diadem's odd system, raiding is ALWAYS viable. I ask you once again, please tell me how ilvl185, non-meldable gear is viable.

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Oh? Please explain to me how ilvl185 crafted gear, which is the penultimate crafted gear atm

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i185 was never meant to be the top ilv combat gear, unless all you're seeking is avg ilv. Melded i180 should be superior to unmeldable i185. i185 was meant as a cheaper version to spiritbond easier and have a source of V materia (but apparently not for crafters or gatherers).

Whereas i180 was costing 50 million for a set of 6 leftside pieces before, now it might be 10-15 million because of lower red scrip mat cost. i185 costs as little as 300k a piece, or 1.7 million for a set of 5 (no belt). Let's say crafters take their cut and double the price, 4 million.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Oh? Please explain to me how ilvl185 crafted gear, which is the penultimate crafted gear atm, is anywhere NEAR non-upgraded esoterics gear. Trying to compare it to raid gear is beyond laughable. Raid gear is STILL BiS for weapon, and other than the lucky SoB's who get those stupidly good diadem rolls, it's still the BiS there as well. Furthermore, the cycle has always done this; raid release, and the gear is ALWAYS the BiS, then the next patch comes, and typically the armor/accessories of upgraded tomestone gear catches up, with the exception of weapons. Eventually, these too are equalized. Soon after, the next big patch hits with a new raid and you're BiS all over again. So despite your argument and diadem's odd system, raiding is ALWAYS viable. I ask you once again, please tell me how ilvl185, non-meldable gear is viable.

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Never said anything about the gear itself being valid. The point is that you can still make money from crafting, hence still viable.

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The point is that you can still make money from crafting, hence still viable.

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Money used to buy expensive minions, expensive glamours, possible housing (but there ain't any), gearing your crafter (which is pretty expensive)...but not much else. I guess you could buy carry runs in Thordan EX. I've seen one in PF today.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Never said anything about the gear itself being valid. The point is that you can still make money from crafting, hence still viable.

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Despite what many seem to believe, not all crafters are crafters so they can swim in piles of gold in their solitary manor. What I, and many other crafters, enjoyed was being able to make viable gear/food/potions ect. for ourselves and our friends/fc members. The best I can do right now is craft HQ ilvl180 melded gear since as Schala recently stated, it is superior to the ilvl185. Only problem is not only is it utter garbage, it'll also completely break my bank to make one set. Point is, you can make money crafting level 50 food if you want; that doesn't make crafting viable. That just makes it profitable; and not all crafters are in it just for the money; that's a bad assumption to make.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Despite what many seem to believe, not all crafters are crafters so they can swim in piles of gold in their solitary manor.

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Despite what many seem to believe, not all raiders are raiders so that they can AFK in Idylshire with full Gordian gear.

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What I, and many other crafters, enjoyed was being able to make viable gear/food/potions ect. for ourselves and our friends/fc members. The best I can do right now is craft HQ ilvl180 melded gear since as Schala recently stated, it is superior to the ilvl185. Only problem is not only is it utter garbage, it'll also completely break my bank to make one set. Point is, you can make money crafting level 50 food if you want; that doesn't make crafting viable. That just makes it profitable; and not all crafters are in it just for the money; that's a bad assumption to make.

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Same way not all raiders are in it just for the gear, yet you say they shouldn't complain about the content because 'at least they still get gear'.

First off, I admit it was wrong of me to make a broad generalization about all raiders; that being said, I suppose I should have been more specific. In particular, I was referring to the large majority of raiders responding to this thread. Most of which DO seem to be in it all for the "I'm top dog" gear. Here's just a few: "As a former raider of other games, I agree that BiS should only ever come from current top-tier raids." "Could not care any less about the story in raids. Do not like there being no gap content between dungeons and raids that drops actual gear." "In no way am I ok with giving early access to top-tier gear to people who have put no effort forth in obtaining it. Void Ark and i200 gear is fine. But this Diadem i210 better than raid gear BS is a joke." That's just a few quotes from the first 3 pages of this thread, and there are MANY more. While not all raiders are in it for the "I'm better than you" gear, a large majority on here, ARE. Sorry I didn't clarify.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

First off, I admit it was wrong of me to make a broad generalization about all raiders; that being said, I suppose I should have been more specific. In particular, I was referring to the large majority of raiders responding to this thread. Most of which DO seem to be in it all for the "I'm top dog" gear. Here's just a few: "As a former raider of other games, I agree that BiS should only ever come from current top-tier raids." "Could not care any less about the story in raids. Do not like there being no gap content between dungeons and raids that drops actual gear." "In no way am I ok with giving early access to top-tier gear to people who have put no effort forth in obtaining it. Void Ark and i200 gear is fine. But this Diadem i210 better than raid gear BS is a joke." That's just a few quotes from the first 3 pages of this thread, and there are MANY more. While not all raiders are in it for the "I'm better than you" gear, a large majority on here, ARE. Sorry I didn't clarify.

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Of course most of us are in it for the gear. Do you not realize that raising your ilevel in this game is the only way to advance your character at the level cap? Do you really think raiders are farming endgame stuff for the sole joy of it?

Sorry but you can't really turn this into a negative. Are you going to turn this around and tell me non-raiders aren't in it for the gear? Is that why they throw a fit when it is suggested that top tier raids also drop exclusive top tier gear? I thought you were in it for the fun. It shouldn't really matter to you if Savage gear was bumped up to i215 should it?

Those quotes are from the viewpoint that the best gear should come from the hardest content, where effort skill and coordination are required, which is only logical. A viewpoint you yourself agreed with.

The subject matter is Diadem and its impact on Savage, so of course you're going to see replies from people bringing up the gear. However, the gear wasn't the only issue the OP brought up. It just ended up being the last straw for him, and it's not hard to see why.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

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Honestly, I was just clearing up what I said in a prior post; that I over-generalized, then corrected myself. In response to FeliAiko's "Those quotes are from the viewpoint that the best gear should come from the hardest content, where effort skill and coordination are required, which is only logical. A viewpoint you yourself agreed with.", yes, I do agree that time, effort, and risk should be rewarded appropriately. I've only done diadem 3 times, after which I will never return; it was mind-numbingly boring. I don't tend to do the top-tier raids either, though I did try AS1....and it was the exact same as A1 just with one helluva dps check, didn't appeal to me at all so dropped that. Returning to the point, time/effort/risk should be rewarded. For raiders, the reward is still there, albeit marginalized due to diadem. Yet let us use your argument for crafters; time; optimizing your crafting classes takes WAY more time than any other content; we're talking easily hundreds of hours each 'upgrade' patch. Effort; admittedly crafting does not take anywhere near the skill running raids does, that's easy to admit, though you still need to pay close attention and plan ahead. Risk? There is FAR more risk involved for crafting than any other discipline in this game, bar none. Want to optimize your gear? Best craft those class-specific, item-gated equipment. You fail to HQ them? Well you've just thrown away millions. Repeat for every craft. Then you get to pentameld ALL OF THEM. Fail a meld? Could easily be 100k loss. 9% success rate on many, many items means many, many fails. As far as risk goes, crafting is king. That being said, should we not be rewarded for it? Yet all we have to show for our efforts is, at best, glamour gear. This was my entire point; while yes, raid rewards have been marginalized, at least you have SOMETHING to look forward to.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Of course most of us are in it for the gear. Do you not realize that raising your ilevel in this game is the only way to advance your character at the level cap? Do you really think raiders are farming endgame stuff for the sole joy of it?

Sorry but you can't really turn this into a negative. Are you going to turn this around and tell me non-raiders aren't in it for the gear? Is that why they throw a fit when it is suggested that top tier raids also drop exclusive top tier gear? I thought you were in it for the fun. It shouldn't really matter to you if Savage gear was bumped up to i215 should it?

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People should be crafting for the fun of it. It shouldn't matter if the items they produce is useless because if they really enjoy crafting, they shouldn't care. What matters is the process right?

I think people should stop bashing on diadem to be honest while yes it has the potential to have better gear it is a catch up patch when the next tier is released and i reckon it will be 230 gear diadem won't get 230 gear until the next catch up patch the "casuals" will still only be able to get 210 gear via the normal methods while getting 220 tome gear and if they want 230 gear they have to raid or wait till the next catch up. So please for the love of god stop whining and for the people struggling with the dps checks in savage tier 1 will be able to go in with much better gear to start touching on the 2nd tier.

It is as simple as that - raiders will have the best gear temporarily as it has been since 2.0.

The story of Alexander is pretty bad but I love the fact I can que up in df and run it especially now with 8 jobs at 60. I really wish Coils had this option back in 2.0+. I would love to run Savage but unfortunately I do not have the time to get a static together and run it hence why I love the regular mode in df. I can understand raiders wanting to have savage mode right off the rip along with the normal mode and I think SE should implement that so raiders can go through it the way they want. But I do not want gear to be gated only behind savage mode. I like to raid as well but unfortunately RL will not allow me to so this is the next best thing.

Those that hate the fact that Diadem gives out BiS (if lucky) as well needs to go sit in a corner somewhere and think about it. Diadem will most likely not start giving out 220 - 230 gear till the next savage mode has been out for several months. By the time Diadem gets an update it wouldn't really mater. This is why I hate the system we have for gear now. Gear gets outdated way to quickly with or w/out Diadem. This is why I would love to have a horizontal progression system which would always place Raid gear in BiS no matter what.

Horizontal progression systems usually places unique traits on gear that enhances your skills. And after some time wearing said gear the traits become permanent. This type of gear is usually found in the hardest content in the game which will always put raiders ahead for a long time. And as new raids come out new and better traits become available or they enhance the traits you already earned through previous raids.

Either way you look at it Diadem and current savage gear will become outdated in just a few patches... it is what it is so to get salty over a few sub stats on gear doesn't change the current system. And honestly sub stats on gear doesn't change much either way. A player that has worked their butts off in savage raids will always out shine non raiding players. The reason for this is a raider will practice and practice on there job rotations to the point that mistakes are rarely made. You can always tell a non raider vs raider and its not by gear. You can give both groups of players the exact same gear and you will be able to tell within the first 10 seconds and you wont need a parser either.

There is no reason to get salty over gear... a real raider loves to raid because the challenge of clearing them is more than enough satisfaction... gear is just icing on the cake. There is no real set stats or shall I say there really is no such thing as BiS. This term is made up.... Foe example higher the Crit value you have the higher the chance you will land a crit but if you start sacrifice Skill/Spell speed or det the lower your over all dps could be, and the reason for this is because you are not guaranteed a crit. So really BiS is a made up term to make players feel like a special snowflake. A real raider knows that gear only enhances your dps but your over all dps is only reflected by how well you know that class and by how much time you practiced and practiced and practiced and I don't mean just standing behind a dummy and hitting it, I mean actually experimenting with multiple rotations and seeing what is actually happening when you apply certain skills.

So please stop crying over sub stats because it really doesn't matter with the current system we have. Now if we had a horizontal progression system that places rare and unique traits on gear then I can see Diadem being a huge freaking problem. Because normally in horizontal progression systems the BiS gear is found in the hardest content.

I just entered the first coil other day to help a few people in PF looking to complete their story. having not entered in many months, i remembered the joys of raidnig the old coil going everyweek to run thru turn3 alone was actualy fun. jumping around cluelessly with my static. the music alone was amazing. when i compared to alexander, what is that shit? shitty music that feel like some sort of teenage mutant ninja turle theme with goblins instead of turtles, shitty bosses that are lifeless machines, add that almost look the same from first turn to 4th turn. 3rd turn adds looking like slimes recycled. all of the turns looking almost identical. it's very sillly design and boring.

hell even FFXI had fantastic boss themes/music better than alexander! here a few examples :
toji a dog boss from hell : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PceibMEMk#t=11
Abysta final boss Shinru : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...FFQqUJDM#t=269
shadowlord theme : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...4ch563Wp0#t=43
Cop Final boss : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...vpoY4UhN8#t=96

Come on SE u can do a better theme than alexander, we know u can !!

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

I think people should stop bashing on diadem to be honest while yes it has the potential to have better gear it is a catch up patch when the next tier is released and i reckon it will be 230 gear diadem won't get 230 gear until the next catch up patch the "casuals" will still only be able to get 210 gear via the normal methods while getting 220 tome gear and if they want 230 gear they have to raid or wait till the next catch up. So please for the love of god stop whining and for the people struggling with the dps checks in savage tier 1 will be able to go in with much better gear to start touching on the 2nd tier.

It is as simple as that - raiders will have the best gear temporarily as it has been since 2.0.

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Yeah, the part you don't get is that raiders don't get full 220 or 230 gear day one of the new raid coming in 3.2. It can take a few months (even more if we look at alex savage) for raiders to get this high end gear. By the time most raiders get a full set, the "catch up" patch comes along before we can even savor the rewards of our hard work.

Why would it be so bad for the ilvl catch up gear come out with each new installment of the 8-man raiding content? So, instead of having catch up every 3 months, having it every six months. Obviously gear progression would need to be tweaked for a six month duration, such as giving casual players a way to get ilvl 205 if raid gear is ilvl210. That's how it works in virtually every other vertical progression mmo.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

So please stop crying over sub stats because it really doesn't matter with the current system we have. Now if we had a horizontal progression system that places rare and unique traits on gear then I can see Diadem being a huge freaking problem. Because normally in horizontal progression systems the BiS gear is found in the hardest content.

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You admit this point and don't get why raiders are salty? Literally every other MMO I have played (WoW, ff11, guild wars, guild wars 2, perfect world, etc etc), from horizontal to vertical progression, the best gear, glamours, effects, traits, and stats generally come from the hardest content.

Alex savage gear is not unique in it's look, it's just dyable while the coolest color palate is the default color to normal gear.
Alex savage gear does not come with the highest stats despite alex savage being the current raid tier.
Alex savage gear comes with no special effects.
Unless you like mounts, there is no reason outside of bragging rights to finish alex savage right now. The relic weapon is a few weeks away and the last bit of value found in alex savage will be lost.

A raid tier should not lose 95% of it's intrinsic value while it's the current raid tier. I never cared in those other games when catch up gear was given out because I had a new raid to work on. The catch up system in other games usually come out with a new raid tier, so everyone is happy, raiders and non-raiders alike. This catch up BS coming out three months before the next raid tier is just a crappy way to conduct the reward schedule of this game.

Its realy sad to read all those raiders and to realize (i knew it from very beggining) that they are sooooo petty about that one single special carrot called the exlusive gear, not only exclusive they want it to be the best. And they only care about best gear, they dont care for personal chalenge and the feeling of 'I CAN DO IT', noo-- if the best gear comes from farming lvl1 monsters they would farm it all day without ever setting foot in any other content. People like those are the ones that, lets say, never climb the everest, because you know there is no special gold loot chest. The only thing on their minds is to have this one bling to shine all over the place to make them feel like they are some kind of god bestowed kings. Its very boring to play with such ppl they are the one that speed, mass pull everything and are first to complain. It is very funny to see those raiders emerge at predictable time when that hard content is clearable stably with general error margin included (call it an intended gear-up). And they poison every single content they set foot in. If I could I would blacklist them globaly, to never be included in their parties and even to never read their comments in forum also to never let my comments (opinion) get in their way, because simply to me they are empty spaces or atleast i would preffer to eliminate them from any form of virtual, physical interactions.

Personaly i think best gear should never be in raid, that is one of the worst places to place stat-oriented gear reward, because the very fact is that raid is hard and you need the best gear to clear it. Current equation of gear acquisition is perpetualy constructed in a way that after your first clear or bis gear upgrade you are ever further driven away from incentive to help other/later player, for you content is accelerated (and that means constant acceleration) from there onward, but the one who comes later is driven further and further away from getting on the stage of equal footing.
Imagine a sports where disciplines first occrurance first prize would be better gear for next discipline so the one who comes first in the first discipline is praticaly set to win every other that follows and the gap grows with each race , becasue statwise (and stats are the only thing that practicaly matter) he is better set win. This is the current situation in the gear placement in the game and sadely this treand is accross practicaly every MMO there is where there is some RPG elemnt attached with stat growth.