Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Except it shouldn't matter which tank you bring, as at that point you're bringing the player more than the class. I'm not against varying flavor between jobs, but taking it to extremes (which is reflected in current tank design) does more harm than good in the long run. As I've said in the past, it's only going to get worse when more tanks are added to the roster.

---

Right now Drk and Pld excel in certain situations but for the most part a Warrior has an answer for every situation. So if they buff the other two and allow all the tank classes to perform with parity among each other then I'm all for it.

But I really feel Pld is hurting the most right now. A lot of the endgame content is more magic focused. And when we get some physical content Drk may or may not suffer but Warrior will be fine.

This could be done easily with 7 PLDs I don't see the whole commotion, this fight isn't hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Like most people, I don't really like jobs to be nerfed.
But, from the way I see it, if "all WAR" can clear as fast as usual setup and "all PLD"/"all DRK" can't clear, or can clear much slower, which should be intended, since they're tanks, the wrong numbers should be on WARs.?

---

The reason being why this group cleared like how they did is how burst is set up in this fight 1 min and 30 sec cds are in huge favor for this fight and the DPS checks are low so you can faceroll everything while mitigating and doing mechanics. It's more about player skill and how if you're a good player in the hands of 200-210 gear with a 205-210 weapon Thordan is a cake walk. We outgear most of the content you have to remember this is a "catch up" patch where everyone and their mother can get a set full of 210 via vertical progression.

Also nothing needs to be nerfed wars are in a great place as being the token OT, Drks and Plds can fill the MT role Thordan is a GREAT fight for Paladins as people who wanna be tanky and take advantage of paladins mitigation will have a blast. It's my favorite fight to tank on at the moment.

Would the Drk's only be running Grit? Then yes 20% DPS loss. However run Grit and Darkside at the same time(which you need DS for Dark Arts and some other stuff) and you only suffer a 5% DPS loss. Or am I wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Would the Drk's only be running Grit? Then yes 20% DPS loss. However run Grit and Darkside at the same time(which you need DS for Dark Arts and some other stuff) and you only suffer a 5% DPS loss. Or am I wrong?

---

Since you should be always in Darkside, you still lose 20% damage from that "base damage"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Since you should be always in Darkside, you still lose 20% damage from that "base damage"

---

Yeah that makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Would the Drk's only be running Grit? Then yes 20% DPS loss. However run Grit and Darkside at the same time(which you need DS for Dark Arts and some other stuff) and you only suffer a 5% DPS loss. Or am I wrong?

---

Full time Grit? No. To maximize DPS you would need to stance dance to maximize DPS using Blood weapon which you can not use in Grit. It would be heavily dependent on which phase is happening as some require 0 healing, and others can be extremely healer intense. The problem with stance-dancing on DRK is the same as PLD. It requires a GCD and breaks combo. So yea, the issue with DRK's is meeting the DPS check while meeting the heal checks also.

This is why WAR is a much better option. For self heals they get...
A 30 second Bloodbath every 90 seconds. IF a berserked Fell Cleave hits for 8000, thats 2000 HP.
Storm's Path. 50% damage dealt to HP. Regardless of stance.
Equilibrium. If its anything like clemency for potency, its good for 5000 hp Every 60 seconds. (Fun fact, Clem is STR based.)
Inner Beast. If they happen to be in defiance (MT), that's a 300 potency attack straight to HP AND 20% damage down.

PLD gets a lengthy ass cast with a heavy MP sink for self cures. PLD already suffers on DPS end, and this just pours salt on an already gushing wound.
Bloodbath.. HA. Sure its something, but PLD lacks heavy spike damage to maximize it during its 15 second duration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrTherm

wat

---

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/...60-git-gud.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrTherm

Storm's Path. 50% damage dealt to HP. Regardless of stance.

---

The self-heal element of Path is irrelevant, because it's generally such a low heal as to not matter. No WAR worth their salt relies on Path for healing. They use Path before Tank Busters, because of this part of the tooltip: "...and lowers target's damage dealt by 10％". That's the part that matters.

Quote:

---

Inner Beast. If they happen to be in defiance (MT), that's a 300 potency attack straight to HP AND 20% damage down.

---

And, if you're a PLD, you have a shield, which is GREAT against physical attacks; use Bulwark & watch Holy Bladedance do very little.

A DRK has self-healing as well; Souleater says hello. Crossclass Bloodbath also says hello & informs you that DRK does have enough Spike damage to take advantage of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Crossclass Bloodbath also says hello & informs you that DRK does have enough Spike damage to take advantage of it.

---

That delicious DA C&S crit with Bloodbath tho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

That delicious DA C&S crit with Bloodbath tho

---

I think I saw C&S crit once. Maybe back in September? It was pretty awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

The self-heal element of Path is irrelevant, because it's generally such a low heal as to not matter. No WAR worth their salt relies on Path for healing. They use Path before Tank Busters, because of this part of the tooltip: "...and lowers target's damage dealt by 10％". That's the part that matters.

And, if you're a PLD, you have a shield, which is GREAT against physical attacks; use Bulwark & watch Holy Bladedance do very little.

A DRK has self-healing as well; Souleater says hello. Crossclass Bloodbath also says hello & informs you that DRK does have enough Spike damage to take advantage of it.

---

Your focusing to much on MT mitigation when that's not the issue. Its more the WAR's being able to DPS and self heal/mitigate damage while being an DPS. There are phases where the healer could just not bother healing WARs after an AoE and let them fell cleave/equilibrium back to full life without sacrificing any DPS. PLD and DRK just can not pull this off.

Shield for PLD is great. If your MT. If your OT? Useless.
Souleater is great. If you want to suffer the DPS loss from having Grit up.
Bloodbath for DRK is ok. It is still only 15 seconds, and assuming you time it right with C&S, AND everything else you have, sure it could heal you a fair amount. But its not something to rely on.

WAR gets a high amount of self heals without needing to sacrifice very much of anything. Sure, Path isn't that great, but it is still something they can do without sacrificing very much. Just the pure fact that they can give a constant -10% damage dealt on a mob goes a hell of a long way towards heals needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

...

A DRK has self-healing as well; Souleater says hello. Crossclass Bloodbath also says hello & informs you that DRK does have enough Spike damage to take advantage of it.

---

Maybe you should take your time to count the amount of healing abilities warriors get, and compare them to pld and drk, include their cooldown times and how often they can be used.

Then come back to us and tell us that they all have the same chance to maintain their hp at decent levels without needing any healer class assistance.

i think you can compare war and pld by dps when a war has oshit skill that prevents him for taking damage (no healing needed), cover, shield/block and has the uncanny ability to heal others.
Also war boosts every other tanks, while every other tank does not boost war.

So you are comparing apples and oranges that seem to be on the same shelf/same table.

What you are saying is: "I want oranges that you don't need to peel, apples are op because of it, nerf them"...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

You haven't played that many MMOs have you? Tank DPS has always been a slippery slope.

---

I have, thanks...
And DPS tanking was never caused by tank doing too little damage, but by DPS having too much mitigation.
And VIT accessories are far from giving them enough.

I believe the point is that 7 war 1 whm ok that works, 7 dtk 1 whm, ok that might work, but 7 pld 1 whm? lololollloll nope, (and thats from someone who loves and formerly mained pld)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

but 7 pld 1 whm? lololollloll nope, (and thats from someone who loves and formerly mained pld)

---

Let's wait for the proof.
We'll have plenty of time to discuss after that.

Who cares that was an awesome group of players that did a fantastic job. Kudos to the WHM for timing the heals perfectly + knowing when to pop that swiftcast at the right moment. Honestly I wish PLD could pull more stuff off like that. But honestly PLD needs a whole new revamp... the class is to dry and boring... The reason why more folks want to play DRK and WAR because its actually a fun job to play where as PLD is just bland.

It doesn't matter if 7 PLD/DRK + 1 heal are able to do the Job.

I think fact is: 7 WAR + 1 heal can clear more encounters than any other group of 7 something + 1 other and they are always faster than those groups.

Maybe not than 7 SMN with perfect titan-rotation. :>
Oh yeah, and I've seen videos of 7 SCH + 1 tank beating ravana ex, too, but not sure about the time they needed.


And buffing PLD/DRK damagewise? Wouldn't that mean, that you can bring any 7 tanks + 1 heal and clear content? What's the point of dps-classes then?

______

I think that a group with not a single dps shouldn't beat dps-races (even the easiest ones) at all.
Like a group with no tank that can't beat the easiest tank-check without some1 dying.
Or like a group with no heal that can't beat the easiest heal-check in game.

Speaking for content without echo and max 10-20 ilvl above the requirement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

Like a group with no tank that can't beat the easiest tank-check without some1 dying.
Or like a group with no heal that can't beat the easiest heal-check in game.

---

That's two more tests after the 7 PLD/DRK + 1 healer :
- A full party without any tank
- A full party without any healer
clearing recent content.

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ?

---

Indeed, it vanished. Probably has something to do with its defense because even more rude that the attack.
But I agree, the attack was not necessary in the first place...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

---

I have noticed a few times his post would disappear too. He does get very vocal sometimes, but is also within his right to do so, but he does get a little rude about his responses sometimes. It is kinda dumb the insults against him still remain. Whatever I have nothing against him.

I am still waiting for his 7Pld/1Healer, and 7Drk/1Healer Thordan EX run to see how they go. As I would find it cool, even though I don't think it really does anything to counter the agruement of people saying War is OP. War is just a better designed tank that also thrives very well in the current meta. Either three things need to happen to tanks: 1. Rework Pld to be competitive against the other tanks, aswell as the other tanks to remain competitive with Pld after it's rework. 2.Realign tank dps back, and go back to a more tank mindset mentality during raids. 3. Homogeneous the tanks to the point they are interchangable, no real flavor between tanks.

I am fine with either of the changes, but for No.3, but I think most people on these forums prefer No.1 to only happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

That delicious DA C&S crit with Bloodbath tho

---

I know. SO TASTY.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vogue

Maybe you should take your time to count the amount of healing abilities warriors get, and compare them to pld and drk, include their cooldown times and how often they can be used.

Then come back to us and tell us that they all have the same chance to maintain their hp at decent levels without needing any healer class assistance.

---

The thing is, as a WAR main (who keeps getting handed the MT reins in AS), it's pretty obvious that the only self-healing that actually means a crap is a Bloodbath during an AoE rotation. Every other time, it's just, "Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...". It doesn't even matter, because your healers already got you covered for autoattack damage and predictable abilities like cleaves. What matters is your damage reduction cooldowns; good use of those are what separate the "OK WAR" from the "good WAR".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

"Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...".

---

As a 190 WAR, Second Wind heals me for around 2k, Thrill of Battle for 3.5k and Equilibrium for 4.5k, without Berserk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

I know. SO TASTY.


The thing is, as a WAR main (who keeps getting handed the MT reins in AS), it's pretty obvious that the only self-healing that actually means a crap is a Bloodbath during an AoE rotation. Every other time, it's just, "Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...". It doesn't even matter, because your healers already got you covered for autoattack damage and predictable abilities like cleaves. What matters is your damage reduction cooldowns; good use of those are what separate the "OK WAR" from the "good WAR".

---

Go watch that Ravana EX 8 warrior fight and see how they do it with no healer, even little heals are enough in most situations if it keeps you alive until your bigger heals abilities are off cooldown. No other tank class can successfully keep themselves alive for so long without the need of any "outside" heals.

The issue I see is that warrior get way too many tools to become a monstrosity of a tank (in a good way) when they have enough gear to survive and do great damage, since most of their heals come from damage inflicted, even while healing themselves they are dealing good damage, so there is no drawback in the ability to heal themselves and keep fighting. True this is what "makes" warrior a warrior, but when it ends up in having full warrior parties clearing un-nerfed content without the assistance of a healer or any other class (like the ravana 8 warriors clear), it makes you wonder if that is right at all. Not to say of how they can clear Thordan as fast, and actually faster than balanced parties. You saw they killed Thordan before the middle add showed up and without the use of any single target LB.

So it does feel the balance is a bit off when it comes to warriors, as simple as that.

I also don't like nerfs and rebalancing of classes, but sometimes they are needed, if not, look at bard, it got nerfed after 2.0 came out because it did too much dps and lacked complexity, then it got made more complex in 3.0 but kept its bottom of the dps chart tag, reasons for this, it is a support class? ok well that is what they want it to be, then be it. Warrior is not a dps class, it is a tank, it shouldn't be possible to behave as a dps and get new un-nerfed content cleared like balanced parties would.

People continue with this utter BS that this 7 WAR party is somehow clearing Thordan EX faster than balanced parties.

Again, multiple A4S clearing players with what is likely BiS gear, 2 weeks behind early progression, and a 1 healer set-up. Like I previously already detailed, they are behind on DPS at every point in the fight compared to a conventional group. In my farm groups from a week ago which were no where near as geared as this one, we were still clearing 15~21% faster than this party with 2 healers. If you decided to go with a non-conventional 1 healer set-up (which is perfectly viable in a 2 tank 5 DPS comp), it would be even faster.

And, as for un-nerfed content, that depends on how you define nerfed. A lot of people would say that over-gearing out-dated content is an effective nerf to content. This is why SE opts to release easier access to higher ilevel gear instead of nerfing content at first. They have the same effective result. At this point, most people over-gear Ravana EX by 30+ ilevels and can kill before Final Liberation. Even Thordan EX is over-geared because it was meant as catch-up content for people who haven't cleared the later floors of Savage yet.

People look at niche content-based examples of where a class's strengths are very apparent and treat it as if it means they are OP. In the rare few solo-heal A3S runs we've seen, PLDs are the best tank and virtually a must-bring job, not WARs and not DRKs. A3S is much more relevant than Thordan EX. Does that mean PLDs are OP? Hell no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vogue

snip

---

nice post, thats the true, thats the question whe have now, ¿what happen if SE buff paladin dps and drk phs tools to the same level to the warrior? the answer is easy, thordan come up a month more or less and 7 warr 1whm clear the fight with cero issues like a standar party (more importan when yoshi say they dont make future fights in the same dificulty) so what prevent in future contenc ppl go only with tanks and healers? can dealt awesome dps, they need less heals vs regular dps so this make 7 tanks can be very close to 4 dps and 2 tanks.

this break complety the trinity, have 7 tanks in recent conten and have clears with only have a little overgear is.... im pretty sure 7 war can clear as1 and 2 if they want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As a 190 WAR, Second Wind heals me for around 2k, Thrill of Battle for 3.5k and Equilibrium for 4.5k, without Berserk.

---

Which, in actual raid content, isn't really that much. When autoattacks wack you for 6k regularly, the main use of these skills is to heal back up after using Holmgang on a tank buster. Let's be realistic here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Which, in actual raid content, isn't really that much. When autoattacks wack you for 6k regularly, the main use of these skills is to heal back up after using Holmgang on a tank buster. Let's be realistic here.

---

That's still a lot more than 1k, and it's even more powerful during Berserk + Internal Release.
And yes, when you use it with Holmgang, it's suddenly not that weak compared to Hallowed Ground, considering the much shorter cooldown.

Just seems to me, people want nerfs to tanks all the way around... nerf all 3 till they are balanced equally.

Dont be mad just because a decent war does more dps than a shitty dps, anything does more dps than a shitty dps

Ok so, first google up Thordan EX DPS, and look at the values each member on a balanced parties are getting, focus on the off tank versus mch and bard values, or how close off tanks can be to all the other (non mch or brd) dps.

You can go ahead and say that every bard and machinist in those lists suck, and all the OT are amazing, or you can simply see that it is strange how close their values are all the time, up to you.

But either way, I am familiar with Bard dps, since that is my main, I am not ultra over geared either, but I do know that Bard DPS focus mainly on procs and critical chance, which is RNG, which leads to not a highly dependent dps, I have had openers do over 1900 dps other not even 1500, all thanks to critical chance and rng.

This is all because the potency on bard abilities isn't anywhere as strong as all other classes, I believe with machinist is the same. Now go look at DRK and WAR and check their potency, pretty high ones, with no dependence on critical or buffs cooldowns, they do have buffs to use, but not as many as bard and not as restrictive as bard since most can either used frequently and keep up at all times, other simply boost things like critical rate, which is a bonus stat since it is rng.

Anyway, study all that information first. Now, last night on a Thordan Ex party finder group we had 2 bards in it,both doing their normal 700-800+ dps (note that the values are whole fight, no resets, and there was no DRG to piercing debuff or critical buff), the dps was plenty to clear the fight, but it being a pug, people are used to killing Thordan before the last add shows up, so guess what, Dark Knight OT with multiple pink 210s from diadem decided to start complaining at the lack of dps because he was 2nd or 3rd on every try, he started to point the finger at the 2 bards which were doing normal numbers, but not as much as the black mage and/or melee.

Anyway, few tries in, every time we got to that last add, we would die form the lack of heals and this went on for a few hours before people got tired and called it.

How I see it now is that OTs are too full of themselves, and rather than understand that their dps is "meant to be" as good as mch and brd in some fights, they see it as everyone else sucks because tanks should never have more dps than a dps itself. So this leads to a rotten mentality that do not understand how other classes work, and people will kick these dps who numbers are "average" because they do not excel at the class, while you have off tanks doing crazy dps by hardly trying to do so and using this as a tool to blame weaker classes that do not have a steady DPS or are too dependent on buffs and luck.

So just think about this a little bit and blame it on whoever you want, it being the fact that BRD and MCH need some love, or the fact that OTs WAR or DRK can do pretty good numbers, or the fact that DPS classes in general need some love, or that the fights ask too much moving around, I don't know what you want to blame it on, but the fact is that if this keeps going in this direction, soon you will have BRD and MCH who do not excel at the class or are over geared, to be expel from parties because the OT is doing more damage than them, and this is all thanks to rng, mechanics that require moving around or having to take care of towers etc.

The community is to blame yes, but why give them the tools to do so?

(sorry for the block of text)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

---

It depends on what posts get reported. As someone that's moderated gaming forums before, I can tell you that mods rely heavily on reports (and in my case, people pm'ing about problem threads). Even forums for smaller games than this are just far too busy to go picking through every new post looking for violations. The best way to get a post removed is to click the little triangle and report it. :3

Thordan is also bad example because you do not need single vitality part for that kind of content if you run with 210 ilvl in 190 ilvl content. But i agree warrior is bit superior compared other tanks. You have aggro combo in your dps rotatio while other tanks need sacrifice dps while building some extra treat, you have infinite tp while other tanks run out in 3min, you have slashing debuff that is pretty huge dps boost compared pld/drk combo if there is not ninja in the party. My suggestion would be put slashing debuff for pld Royal Authority.

That is actually a pretty good idea, Sunako, it gives the paladins that extra support to other tanks, when a ninja is not present.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vogue

snip

---

So you're concerned that bad BRDs in horrible party comps and bad tanks who don't know how to read a parser are leading to toxic situations so everyone else who isn't bad at their role or a moron should suffer for it?

That makes no sense.

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/4#boss=1029

BRDs are obviously ahead of WARs in pure DPS output and that's not factoring in their overall raid DPS contribution through things like Foes and Battle Voice.

None of the things you proposed to blame should be things you blame. You know who I blame and who anyone with a functioning brain should blame? You blame bad players who complain about job balance before they look to improve themselves and bad posters who post misguided garbage based only on irrelevant anecdotal evidence. Seriously, "doing their normal 700-800+ dps?" You realize that's literally PLD range DPS. If that's how much damage a BRD is doing, people should be complaining. Are we really having a conversation about nerfing tank DPS to protect garbage-tier DPS players?

Nobody is saying to nerf tanks, people are asking to re-balance things around.

So you are simply assuming way too many things, including the fact that a bard or machinist doing 800-900 dps in Thordan ex is a "garbage-tier DPS players", as you call them.

Maybe go and finish leveling your bard to 60, then focus in doing the content as bard and notice the differences, there are way too many tanks giving feedback about this subject when they haven't even tried the fights as anything else beside tank.

Just because the bard in your group does crazy damage, gear, latency or party constitution, doesn't mean that is the average and anyone that doesn't meet those numbers is just bad.

Anyway go back to that website you linked and create 2 pages, one for full warriors and one for full bards, both doing Thordan ex and look at the difference, a 100 or less dps difference between both classes, still find it logical? or all the Bards in that list simply suck bad, except the ones that are at the very top?

You are all spoiled people who only play with over geared players, maybe go on and swap some pieces of gear down or closer to the ilvl needed for the fight and try to do it that way and look at the dps then, the fight was made for those ilvl, not 210. You are just yet another tank who will kick a person that is not over geared for the fight, because their dps won't be as good as those who ilvl is much higher than the one required to complete it.

This is a waste of time, I only hope that the developers are thinking about it differently, not just that everyone sucks and should get better or they shouldn't try to run the content, which by the way, is not even a Raid. I am glad I don't have to deal with PF, static and a good FC is much better than rotten mentality players, who think way too highly about themselves.

700-800+ DPS as a BRD on Thordan is low. That's the number range you started with. Convenient you magically bumped that up to 800-900.

You hit 60 on WAR 5 days ago and somehow that qualifies you to comment on WAR now? I guess I should finish mindlessly spamming dungeons on BRD in a day or two so that I can be qualified to talk about BRDs in end-game content. Makes sense.

I'm not basing this on the BRD in my group even though he usually does do more DPS than me. He doesn't do "crazy" damage. He does what is usual of a skilled BRD. I'm basing this off the fflogs averages. And, as I said, BRDs and MCHs provide a lot of raid DPS outside of their raw DPS numbers. Still, even without factoring in Rook / Bishop / Hypercharge / Foes / Battle Voice, etc. BRDs and MCHs both come out ahead of WARs in a fight that is incredibly favorable to WAR DPS. If you flip this and look at a fight that is instead incredibly favorable to BRDs / MCHs, the DPS is not comparable at all.

I already explained in specific CD and key GCD break-downs why Thordan EX almost couldn't get better for WAR DPS. What have you provided? Garbage. That's what.

800-900 with a dragoon in a party, yes?

The 700-800 was last night on a non drg party, learn to read.

I know plenty of warriors, and hearing them say things like "I will go warrior because it does more dps than my ninja" kinda makes me chuckle, I wonder if a paladin would ever say such things. Today actually in a Thordan farm the warrior said that he better consider leveling dragoon just in case they nerf warrior.

I miss the time where a being a DPS class meant something more than just an option for those who dislike playing warrior as a dps, rather than just tank. Also, all the buffs a bard or machinist can bring to the group mean nothing in parties with full warriors, since foe as you know, is for magic attacks, ballad isn't as needed anymore, because less heals and no deaths means less mana burn, so whatever. All flaw and empty arguments, right?

I will just stop wasting my time with people like you and wait for the outcome, not every player enjoy playing balanced games anyway.