Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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Dont bother, these people wont listen to any amount of reason. They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

Just accept that this is the lower tier of player, who wont see much content, and because of that want the game to be balanced around their level- despite that having dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from??? Do you know how weapon damage works to be asking for that 10%?

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Its quite basic maths

Hive Kris WD:72 / Hive Musketoon WD:65 Difference = 7WD
7/72*100=9.72% difference

As to weather this should be increased and by how much who knows.

Is the crux of one of the arguments "bards should do better damage because they might be one of two dps in a 4 man?" i've done multiple 2 bard runs of the expert roulette with absolutely zero problems and without it taking a hundred million years so... that argument is out. some of the other stuff might be worth looking at, sure.

e: these runs were pre wm buff also...

For me it isn't so much about dps, it's about our utility abilities being unneeded outside of hardcore raids, while also being the reason we have lower dps. I would just like the support part of our class to be useful in more areas.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

Healer's dps is very important during raid and is a nice bonus during other easy content.

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Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations. Going from what was said in the quote, healers are, at best, a last resort if your DPS isn't high enough.

In other words, if healer DPS is very important, your DPS isn't doing good enough.

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Some people on this thread already posted video proof of bard's/machinist's dps being high.

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And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

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Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from???

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From the game and elementary school math. Bard weapons have an inherent 10% less weapon damage, rounded (apparently 5- is down, 6+ is up).

Example: Ninja Zodiac weapon has 56 weapon damage. 10% of 56 is 5.6. Round that up to 6. Bard Zodiac has 50 weapon damage, 6 less than Ninja.

NIN Zeta = 58. 10% is 5.8, rounded to 6. BRD Zeta = 52, 6 less.

Fast forward.

NIN Law = 67. 10% is 6.7, round to 7. BRD Law = 60.

NIN Hive = 72. 10% is 7.2, rounded down to 7. BRD Hive = 65.

The longer the game goes, the more of a gap there is. When NIN has weapons 76-85, BRD will then be 8 points behind. When NIN has 86-95, BRD will be 9 points behind. The higher the weapon damage goes, the less relative damage a Bard can do.

Did you not know of this fact? It's pretty basic Bard knowledge. That means that about 10% of the boost of WM is spent just catching up to melee's weapon damage. That leaves 20%, so basically a Ninja's poison. Except it also adds cast times and Bards have lower potency average and no self-damage buffs like DE.

Anyways, tank weapons are equal in weapon damage to melee DPS. They get a hit of 25% while tanking. So what would be so game-breaking about taking that 10% from Bard weapons and moving it to a 25% penalty when supporting, just like how tanks have equal weapon damage normally but 25% less when supporting?

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

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So... the same thing for both sides, then?

I'm actually perfectly willing to accept I'm wrong... if I'm proven wrong. However...

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dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

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Such as?

Nobody's given me an answer as to what the "dire ramifications" would be if the 10% weapon damage nerf was moved to the song penalty.

Apparently they're super dire and super game destroying, yet nobody can actually say what it would be.

Are you able to? This is your chance to make me admit I'm wrong about how game-destroying it would be.

I will tell you this - If you choose Summoner, prepare to not "feel" like you're doing good damage. It's a sustained damage type class so with your 3 dots + pet + nuke, basically all 5 of those are dots in their own way. Our nukes hit like a wet noodle, the pet hits like a wet noodle and the 3 dots all hit like wet noodles on their own, stack all 5 and you have a decent hit of damage just nothing "omg that was insane" type moments. If you tack on the GTAoE Dot as well which its name is slipping my mind right now since I just got into my car with a note threatening to tow my car because someone was being an asshole, that's another dot. So together you should have roughly 6 "DoT's running at a given time.

In other words, if you can manage seeing small numbers ticking that all add up to a decent chunk of damage, then try it. I know I have switched from my Summoner to Black Mage because my Black Mage can shell out 5k + total damage in a matter of seconds where my Summoner takes some time, plus I like seeing larger numbers even though Im a huge fan of pet classes(which this iteration for a pet class is pisspoor)

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Is the crux of one of the arguments "bards should do better damage because they might be one of two dps in a 4 man?" i've done multiple 2 bard runs of the expert roulette with absolutely zero problems and without it taking a hundred million years so... that argument is out. some of the other stuff might be worth looking at, sure.

e: these runs were pre wm buff also...

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I think most people who play archers associate it with being a high dps class since in most mmo's they are. In this though, they do do dps but since they're in the support realm, they deal a little less, at least to my knowledge but again, I think most people associate archers with high dps classes and when they come here theyre baffled.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

stuff.

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I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

To be honest, this was how bard was in 2.0. Their damage could be summed as cherry tapping with the amount of outgoing weaponskills and oGCDs that were present. Wm turns it more of a blm output since there's no auto attack, but retaining abilities and Passover from 2.0 that doesn't work well with wm. that's a completely different discussion though and you can read up on it in the other brd thread.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

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If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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Nah, just pointing that out. I just don't want anyone thinking it's a flat 10%.

Other than that, I enjoy reading you and other people's debates, even though you and I are on opposite sides of it.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations...

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Did you even read the part where I said it was optional dps for dungeons? Skipping context for your own convenience is quite over the top, I must say this is sad. The best part is I have to repeat it over until it sticks, sigh.

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did, Yoshi talks about how healers boost the dps output when people are challenging new content. In the case of raid content, healer's dps is absolutely a huge boost not because the party is not preforming well but because the whole party is actually under geared which was the case for T13. I'm not surprised that you are clueless about this, nothing new.

You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?! I guess that means SE needs some serious help with their staff to be missing such a chunk of WD without any notice?!?! Shame on them. Except it's not. Although I'm curious to why they are scaling weapon damage differently for bard and ninja. I think at this point adding boost weapon damage will change things about bard because weapon damage doesn't work as a straight 10% damage buff as WM. Not surprised that you thought it was really.


The best quote ever!

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And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

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Thank god mission accomplished. In this case I want a summoner buff please. Also a monk buff. While you are at it please buff machinists. I've seen badly played jobs so can we please buff them and balance them all because they are the majority of the playerbase?

That logic though. Still not surprised, although it is funny. Thank you!

OP these answers help you decide yet?

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did

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I did read it. He clearly states repeatedly that they don't take into account healer damage when designing the things.

As such, "Healer damage" is not important if you're doing it the right way, which includes gear.

I never said healers don't do damage ever. I said that healers have to heal, so I don't consider Foe's as "always useful" for them because they're not going to be always attacking, and certainly not for the minute-straight that Foe's can be up, unless the Tank is significantly over-geared for the dungeon or incredible at damage mitigation.

Or if it's a SCH in a low level dungeon, but you wouldn't have Foe's there anyways.

After all, that was about the use of Bard songs in non-Raids compared to other class' utilities. Remember?

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You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?!

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Well yes. Around here, at least, we learned that if something is at 100 and another thing is at 90, then that second thing is 10% lower than the thing at 100.

You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

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Not surprised that you thought it was really.

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This loses a lot of sting when it's coming from someone who apparently didn't even know about the weapon damage difference.

Anyways, this is my last post here because of several reasons, not the least of which is the straying from the actual topic.

But also because you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about before going on irrelevant tangents about raids, so... no point.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

The right way? I don't know what game you're playing, but the ffxiv I play; the off-tank and 2nd healer (SCH) have huge dps uptime.

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I don't know what forum you're reading, but the post I made, I didn't say anything about having DPS uptime.

I said healer DPS wasn't taken into consideration when designing encounters, and therefore is, if everything else is "correct", bonus, not needed, which was proven correct by the interview that somebody thought was proving me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I believe the concept that the lower weapon damage of BRD/MCH doesn't actually mean they do largely lower DPS in real fights is lost on you, before talking about Foe's/Hypercharge.

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I didn't say they do.

You'd think at some point, people might notice that I'm not saying they're largely lower. At least not at this point. I think the concept of "reading what someone's saying" is lost on a lot of the anti-bards.

However, we are still at the beginning of this expansion, of course. Time will pass, the gap will grow as stronger weapons get introduced.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

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The right way? I don't know what game you're playing, but the ffxiv I play; the off-tank and 2nd healer (SCH) have huge dps uptime.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

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I believe the concept that the lower weapon damage of BRD/MCH doesn't actually mean they do largely lower DPS in real fights is lost on you, before talking about Foe's/Hypercharge.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

OP these answers help you decide yet?

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Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members. :(

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members. :(

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Thats dissapointing, im sad that it swayed your decision such. The support DPS in this game are very important in endgame raiding, and very potent outside of it as well if played well. You will never ever be a detriment if you play it well- BUT play what you enjoy! If that is SMN, then play SMN!

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

...(

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As I've and a couple of other people mentioned a while back, play the class you like or feels comfortable to you. There's no strictly defined role on whose support or not, and it's not enforced in party match making. They're all perfectly feasiable, but that's not to say that some could use some adjustments here and there. You could go into alex or EX primals without a MCH or BRD because none of those fights are tuned to absolutely require a specific party composition or class.

That might change with cutting-edge end game content like alexander savage, but that doesn't pickle your interest (or you can't find a static), there's really nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members. :(

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The only real legit concern for the class, besides perhaps a few small tweaks (Suppressive Fire Range...) would be the play style change. Those who used to main bards(and now MCH) did so largely for the mobility which the class hasn't really lost, but to play optimally now means staying in GB/WM for as long as possible. They are completely viable in all content, but as I mentioned in a much earlier post in my opinion require more from the player to play optimally. If you enjoy it and can play it at an acceptable level, then you have nothing to worry about and assuming your denied because of your class, then you'd typically want to avoid those kind of people anyhow.

My endgame dps crew in 2.0 was SMN BLM BRD NIN. Our BLM and NIN have taking leave for various reasons and our BRD has taking a liking to NIN. We've filled one dps spot with a MNK, and assuming we can find an adequate Caster, I may yet switch from SMN to MCH main, as I have very much taking a liking to the job. While SMN is great, don't let the petty (and often stupid) debates on these forums here stop you from enjoying MCH.

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members. :(

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It honestly depends. You can go with summoner and have fun enjoy a class that's basically a warlock or you can play MCH with a unique style that feels like its from the Final Fantasy universe. That's basically an easier way to break it down. The summoner in this game is not following the tradition of Final Fantasy universe plain and simple. Its something different but also puts it in a weird place when later on they try to add more summons because it will leave them deciding what to add next for skills. The class feels like its rushed and its very noticeable with the job quests requiring very little time effort in them and just requires you to complete simple tasks that are not engaging at all. I don't mind the job quests pre 50 but anything after 50 is basically a joke and feels rushed. I do hope they review the class and decide to overhaul it and follow the Final Fantasy universe tradition something that Final Fantasy XI had no problem doing at all.

^ Lots of classes in this game don't follow the FF Cookie Cutter and that's not necessarily a negative. XI was also an IMMENSELY different game in most almost every regard, so comparing SMN here and then is like apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I did read it. He clearly states repeatedly that they don't take into account healer damage when designing the things.
As such, "Healer damage" is not important if you're doing it the right way, which includes gear.
I never said healers don't do damage ever. I said that healers have to heal, so I don't consider Foe's as "always useful" for them because they're not going to be always attacking, and certainly not for the minute-straight that Foe's can be up, unless the Tank is significantly over-geared for the dungeon or incredible at damage mitigation.

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That's normal for you to say because you don't raid and it seems you also turn a blind eye to good healers in dungeon who even ask for foes. Btw, yoshi does say that healer's dps is needed when they are pushing on content while being under geared or barely on the mark. Lucrezia did it so that's proof right there.

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Or if it's a SCH in a low level dungeon, but you wouldn't have Foe's there anyways.
After all, that was about the use of Bard songs in non-Raids compared to other class' utilities. Remember?

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Foes is considered a bard utilty and you will always have a healer in 4-man dungeons. Whether you like it or not that foe will always be optional just like any other job on utility, it's up to the player on how they wanna maximize.

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Well yes. Around here, at least, we learned that if something is at 100 and another thing is at 90, then that second thing is 10% lower than the thing at 100.
You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

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I was being sarcastic hence the "?!?!!?" spam. jeez. This is no fun. I am fully aware on how WD works but you aren't, hence why you think that if SE buffs their weapon damage it'll fix whatever you think it will.

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This loses a lot of sting when it's coming from someone who apparently didn't even know about the weapon damage difference.
Anyways, this is my last post here because of several reasons, not the least of which is the straying from the actual topic.

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From someone who think they are being stung, this is hilarious. Again, I know how it works and I never bothered to track every weapon and compare. SE has their own damage measurement tools and they know how to equate them.

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But also because you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about before going on irrelevant tangents about raids, so... no point.

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You've been nitpicking lines and twisting them out of context whenever you please, so I have no comment on that statement of yours. As for low level content, SE isn't stupid to "balance" bad players to reach up to other well played jobs. That argument is very silly. Bard does lower damage than other jobs but it's not significant that it would make the job a burden.

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Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members.

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I'm so sorry to hear that, support jobs are tough to play when being as to how they should be. I remember back in 2.0 when nobody wanted a summoner for FCoB and bard was guaranteed a spot. Let me say this though.
Finding a really good summoner that knows how to play the job 100% is not like finding a bard that knows when sing, minimize mobility and maximize damage output when at 90% of being perfect. Same about machinist. In the end, it's up to you. Enjoy playing summoner!!

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

^ Lots of classes in this game don't follow the FF Cookie Cutter and that's not necessarily a negative. XI was also an IMMENSELY different game in most almost every regard, so comparing SMN here and then is like apples and oranges.

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I'd agree with the sentiment more if SE wasn't following a WoW Cookie Cutter Warlock so much.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

I'd agree with the sentiment more if SE wasn't following a WoW Cookie Cutter Warlock so much.

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I feel like we're back in 2013.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I feel like we're back in 2013.

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"Two different games" and "Cookie Cutter bad" aren't old-ass arguments? It wouldn't be so bad except SE's big addition to SMN (this year) is just demon form without the graphics.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

"Two different games" and "Cookie Cutter bad" aren't old-ass arguments? It wouldn't be so bad except SE's big addition to SMN (this year) is just demon form without the graphics.

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Then let me give you the argument that is old as time. Play something else if you're so bent out of shape about it.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Then let me give you the argument that is old as time. Play something else if you're so bent out of shape about it.

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Yes, because the only two options are to agree completely or just ragequit. For a bit of novel thought, it's entirely possible to enjoy something and still disagree with certain directions it goes.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Yes, because the only two options are to agree completely or just ragequit. For a bit of novel thought, it's entirely possible to enjoy something and still disagree with certain directions it goes.

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Not quite, but you can say what you want me to say all you want. I said no such thing :). Just figured with all the generic and cookie cutter claims with negative "wouldn't be so bad if..." kind of has an implication that the class is underwhelming or even bad in your eyes. Whatever though, have fun with your "graphicless Demon Form Warlock".

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Not quite, but you can say what you want me to say all you want. I said no such thing :). Just figured with all the generic and cookie cutter claims with negative "wouldn't be so bad if..." kind of has an implication that the class is underwhelming or even bad in your eyes. Whatever though, have fun with your "graphicless Demon Form Warlock".

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I didn't jump straight to quit SMN if you're so bent out of shape after one wouldn't be so bad :). I am sorry that "I would agree with your sentiment more..." is too negative.

Perfectly functional job, but if we're going to go argue it's OK to not copy from Final Fantasy, let's at least acknowledge SE flagrantly copied from another franchise. It should be apparent SMN's not a snowflake, we're all playing the same job after all.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

I didn't jump straight to quit SMN if you're so bent out of shape after one wouldn't be so bad :). I am sorry that "I would agree with your sentiment more..." is too negative. Perfectly functional job, but if we're going to go argue it's OK to not copy from Final Fantasy, let's at least acknowledge SE flagrantly copied from another franchise. It should be apparent SMN's not a snowflake, we're all playing the same job after all.

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SMN is a copy to Warlock as much as any video game (and primarily mmo's in general) copy each others ideas. It's referred to as an archetype within the gaming community for a reason. It's like saying Paladin shouldn't be in FF because other games have done sword and board Knight or Holy Warrior. The sooner you get over the fact that no idea or brainchild is as unique as you'd like, the sooner you can realize that Warlock in all it's shining lights is about as original as the SMN you relate it to.

So yes, World of Warcraft was not the first MMO to develop all it's class archtypes, soooo you should probably stop acting like it was. Gaming as a community and industry is built upon each others ideas. SMN and Warlock are similar, not identical.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

SMN is a copy to Warlock as much as any video game (and primarily mmo's in general) copy each others ideas. It's referred to as an archetype within the gaming community for a reason. It's like saying Paladin shouldn't be in FF because other games have done sword and board Knight or Holy Warrior. The sooner you get over the fact that no idea or brainchild is as unique as you'd like, the sooner you can realize that Warlock in all it's shining lights is about as original as the SMN you relate it to.

So yes, World of Warcraft was not the first MMO to develop all it's class archtypes, soooo you should probably stop acting like it was. Gaming as a community and industry is built upon each others ideas. SMN and Warlock are similar, not identical.

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Gaming's iterative. Of course it is, a natural progression of storytelling and playthings, all deriving from basic archetypes. I get it. We're all on the same page.

I think you're overselling the ubiquity of DoT-Minion Mages, and in the process putting words in my mouth. Identical, no. Unique little butterflies, no. What there is is a SMN that parallels Warlock enough to be, like I said, flagrant. Recently too.

If we're going to go argue it's OK to not copy from Final Fantasy, let's not ignore that.

A DoT class with a DPS minion, tank Minion and HoT minion heal. DoTs with different lengths, some of them really long, which makes keeping them up a constant struggle. The archetypical slow-to-do-damage-but-best-DPS-on-boss-fights.

The only thing lacking to be a complete port is having a HoT baked into one of their DoTs.

I am not saying it is good or bad, just that yeah, it screams WoW Warlock and it is not what I would envision a FF game to be about. That said FF14 is my first FF game (if we disregard FF7).

But other than that I used a summoner to level to 50 so I could pick the Machinist, the class I really was after since I love the magitech classes. After the easy breeze that was having a tank pet that can keep agro and self heals from Arcanist it is hard to get into the Machinist who goes to half HP if two quest mobs spawn, and has to run for her life if two spawn and a open world mob joins in.

Though the OP has made up its mind I leave my opinion here if oth (cont)

(cont) ers are following the thread with the same question, and that is that overall (I did not level either to 60) the summoner wins hand down. But, for those nuts like me who like aesthetics (and dislike juggling DoTs, especially with different timers and no addons or bars to help control things) and enjoy the idea of pew pew then pew away.