The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Hi there

I believe you are a bit miss guided.

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.

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Care to share what these "skills involved in tanking and holding hate" are? Tanking is the easiest role in FFXIV, as it is all gear dependent. Only thing that pushes it a bit more is knowing when to tank swap when needed which is just a simple matter of watching the other tanks debuffs, hitting provoke and a high enmity ability.

There's nothing complex about tanking in FFXIV.

I've tanked everything outsideof FCoB (only run that as MNK and SCH) and more often than not run day 1 dungeons as tank due to it being the easiest role and more margin for error for learning mechanics due to mitigation and defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

There's nothing complex about tanking in FFXIV.

I've tanked everything outsideof FCoB (only run that as MNK and SCH) and more often than not run day 1 dungeons as tank due to it being the easiest role and more margin for error for learning mechanics due to mitigation and defensive cooldowns.

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To be fair, you're correct with the exception that you've noted. Coil tanking is a massive jump in difficulty compared to dungeon/FATE/Hunt tanking. Mainly in that there is a significantly smaller margin for error when it comes to actually using your cooldowns appropriately.

With the exception of coil and a few things with the newest primal Extremes... Yeah. Tanking is easily the easiest job there is. The majority of mechanics ignore you, aggro is simple to hold in this game, and unless you're speed pulling you don't even need your cooldowns thanks to natural overgearing due to progression staggering.

Dungeons weren't that easy to tank during leveling and/or before they were nerfed. Stuff like qarn where you had to actually move stuff around while being wrecked or pharos sirius were actually quite hard.

Hard hitting mobs aren't harder. They just require better gear. Larger HP pools aren't harder. They just test your patience. The only way to really make enemies interesting is mechanics and varied attributes.

Think Final Sting from quarn, or that bastard that stoneskins the boss in Haukke NM. Stuff that engages the tank, DPS and healers together. Another thing this game does well (when it actually does it anyway) are possible stage hazards, and how those interact with the mobs and parties. Could use a bit more of that too.

Thing is, getting creative also naturally means getting harder, and this game is a bit cautious when it comes to stressing people in duty finder.

You guys know the OP stopped replying 8 pages ago, right?

That'd be okay if people were having their own discussion, but most are just talking to air (the OP).

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Dungeons weren't that easy to tank during leveling and/or before they were nerfed. Stuff like qarn where you had to actually move stuff around while being wrecked or pharos sirius were actually quite hard.

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Eh... I dunno. My WAR was my first character. Leveled it up along with my fiance's BRD. While you are correct that they were harder they weren't actually harder than what the other roles had to do, for the most part.

Qarn in particular was really all about your DPS being on the ball and getting to where they needed to be and doing it quickly (compared to previous dungeons anyway). And Pharos was mostly stressful on the healer (with the exception of the first boss which required your DPS to actually slow down and control their burn).

Most of the troubling mechanics ignore tanks or are managed by the DPS/healer. Leveling and for a lot of end-game I got to pretty much sit there hittin' the baddie, popping cooldowns, and paying attention to the things the DPS didn't do the first time so I could tell them what they missed before going in again.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You guys know the OP stopped replying 8 pages ago, right?

That'd be okay if people were having their own discussion, but most are just talking to air (the OP).

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Yep! I thought that was pretty telling the whole thing was a troll thread. There's been some good conversations though and why I've only been replying to individuals at this point after pointing out the OP was being a silly.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You guys know the OP stopped replying 8 pages ago, right?

That'd be okay if people were having their own discussion, but most are just talking to air (the OP).

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That first post was pretty atrocious, i dont think we would have gotten much discussion out of it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Ok, so your making the game harder for no reason?

All the mobs would be then are boring HP pools, and people will just avoid the content and do raids.

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This argument makes no sense. The mobs hit harder so people won't run dungeons...?

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Originally Posted by Caraway

To be fair, you're correct with the exception that you've noted. Coil tanking is a massive jump in difficulty compared to dungeon/FATE/Hunt tanking. Mainly in that there is a significantly smaller margin for error when it comes to actually using your cooldowns appropriately.

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For SCoB I actually found Healing more challenging than tanking. Also, to be fair, cooldown timings applies to DPS and healers for FCoB also, when it's safe to pop B4B, when to shrouds, etc. But due to rotation being set, for tanking it's jkust a matter of learning the bosses rotation.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Hard hitting mobs aren't harder. They just require better gear. Larger HP pools aren't harder. They just test your patience. The only way to really make enemies interesting is mechanics and varied attributes.

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I prefer less but more interesting trash than hordes of cannon fodder. Big turn off for the longer dungeons are down to the number of trash pulls between bosses, many are on the excessive side. eg AV, Stone Vigil.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

Because the skill speed is useful for spamming death blossom, and a lot of ninjas don't know this but doton cast with kassatsu make every damage of the dot critical so it does more damage than kassatsu+katon.

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If you're a good Ninja you already have Fuuton up though so that you don't have to waste a Ninjutsu when AoEing just to apply it. So Katon -> Kassatsu -> Doton is the correct answer, provided the mobs are going to live for the duration of the Doton. Otherwise just do Katon -> Kassatsu -> Katon while popping Death Blossoms.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

LOL! yeah... right.

Of course you could in FFXI with the right job.



This made me laugh, most of the DPS jobs could succesfully tank in FFXI. Ive solo tanked upto and including Delve as MNK and DNC. Stack up on PDT and MDT gear, sub

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Delve.....do you realise when I was talking about in FFXI. I was talking pre-delve and pre-easy mode FFXI.

I'm sorry the intelligence and compentence level I get from a lot of these comments is beyond stupid

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

I'm sorry the intelligence and compentence level I get from a lot of these comments is beyond stupid

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EDIT: Never mind, I see you already have a level 50 DPS job, assumed PLD was your first.

Since this thread had descended into madness i'll end by saying this.

SE I've said what I think. That's what these forums are for.
Yes I agree people are allowed to disagree which they have done. If you feel that it's worth listening to them cos "apprantly" that's what majority want and that who you want to play it. please don't listen to me.
At the end of the day I understand you guys have to make a living.

If DPS are getting hate it's the tank's fault, whether they be undergeared in comparison to the dps or just bad. A DPS should never have to 'slow down' unless one of the previous two things applies.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

If DPS are getting hate it's the tank's fault, whether they be undergeared in comparison to the dps or just bad. A DPS should never have to 'slow down' unless one of the previous two things applies.

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Sorry last post I promise....SE please read this comment and think about what kind of mentality you're teaching these players

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

If DPS are getting hate it's the tank's fault, whether they be undergeared in comparison to the dps or just bad. A DPS should never have to 'slow down' unless one of the previous two things applies.

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I am a dps, and if a dps gets aggro it's fault of both tank and the dps player in question. It is the job of every player to regulate their dps so as to keep aggro on tank where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Sorry last post I promise....SE please read this comment and think about what kind of mentality you're teaching these players

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LOL se isn't teaching anyone anything. seriously.

just another ff11 lover trying to talk down a game that isn't like it.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Delve.....do you realise when I was talking about in FFXI. I was talking pre-delve and pre-easy mode FFXI.

I'm sorry the intelligence and compentence level I get from a lot of these comments is beyond stupid

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All jobs have always been able to tank in 11, please just stop. Warrior was the go to tank at 50 then anything /nin Bard, Ranger, Ninja, Rdm, Monk later on at NA and EU release. People who thought PLD and NIN were the only tanks just didnt understand how completly broken the enimty system in 11 was and still is to this day. Most people who use these arguments are just SKY warriors fighting over there genbu pride.

Don't worry, come Heavensward you can run around in the new dungeons and get your shit tossed and then by the time 3.0's life cycle is over and we're running gear several iLvl's higher than when we started and we're wiping the floor with all the dungeon content again you'll see it has nothing to do with SE breaking the trinity system.

As a side note, from my personal point of view I don't want to be running around in the highest to obtain gear at the end of a patch and still walk into a dungeon introduced 5 months prior and still get knocked around. I should feel powerful walking around in Dreadwyrm gear. I defeated Bahamut, how is a fire sprite going to kick my ass? Maybe when it's new, but not when it's old.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

If DPS are getting hate it's the tank's fault, whether they be undergeared in comparison to the dps or just bad. A DPS should never have to 'slow down' unless one of the previous two things applies.

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Wrong.

A good DPS knows their tank. They learn what thresholds they can cross and when they need to dial it back.

Threat is equally the responsibility of the DPS. We are given tools to reduce and drop threat for a reason. If a DPS dies because they decided to go balls out with an undergeared tank and dies and they didn't even PPP quelling strikes? Laugh at them. Hard.

STOP BUMPING THIS THREAD XD. The OP learned his lesson, please. Stahp!.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

If played at launch, we know that the trinity was doing fine in dungeons. The dungeon AK at 2.0 launch, before the nerf, was way hard and even harder with only darklight at best. There was no pulling the entire room. Long after we overgeared it, they decided to nerf it *then* because people thought it still was too hard.

The problem isn't it's "broken," its the fact that people complained and told SE to break it. It's our fault. It's what we wanted.

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This is PRECISELY the reason. The reason why I fell in love with FF14 WAS because of AK 2.0. It was excruciatingly hard, very difficult and the feeling of accomplishment getting your dungeon clear and purchasing an i55 Grandcompany weapon was next to none. Sadly, too many people whined and moaned and QQ'd because "halp itz too 4ard 4 me pls pls nerf SE"

Does anyone who started in Girdania remember the demon they had to fight in Central Shroud that you can now AFK kill? Back in beta, you needed to go out and purchase POTIONS, you needed to make sure you had a full set of level 10 gear, you might of also needed to level up a Conjurer for some cures as a cross-class to survive the fight, if you weren't an Archer. It's stuff like that I miss. It's difficulty like that, which I genuinely wanted from this game.

There is no fun, and I'm glad the direction Heavensward is taking for Dungeons may make it more challenging and enjoyable for players like myself.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

This is PRECISELY the reason. The reason why I fell in love with FF14 WAS because of AK 2.0. It was excruciatingly hard, very difficult and the feeling of accomplishment getting your dungeon clear and purchasing an i55 Grandcompany weapon was next to none. Sadly, too many people whined and moaned and QQ'd because "halp itz too 4ard 4 me pls pls nerf SE"

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AK in 2.0 was not excruciatingly hard...

The only thing that was remotely annoying about that dungeon was the Demon Wall and the only thing about that fight specifically were the bees, but even those could be dealt with reasonably. Was it a roadblock for new players? Certainly.

However, it wasn't excruciatingly hard. Players were speed running it and WP in a very short time. They even had to make adjustments to the instance so players couldn't speed run it as efficiently.

That's exactly why I said "getting i55 GC spear". This was before anyone had relics, before people even had Darklight. Also, speed Running AK/WP in 2.0 was the "Death walk" method. Stoneskin + Protect, manage cooldowns and run through everything. Die in a corner, get healer to res. Not, pull 5 packs and AOE burn it.

Another thing, Demon Wall got ninja-nerfed around the same time they hotfixed deathwalking AK.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

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That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

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Originally Posted by BHGlobbd

who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

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I don't mind 30m dungeons. Running a dungeon is part of the fun with this game, especially when you consider how trivial it is to cap tomes. Sure, some players are only in it for tomes, but its not the only reason people run dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Delve.....do you realise when I was talking about in FFXI. I was talking pre-delve and pre-easy mode FFXI.

I'm sorry the intelligence and compentence level I get from a lot of these comments is beyond stupid

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Says the one who is stating the "holy trinity" is broken because DPS can face tank trash they vastly over gear. Which if you had read my post proper between the froth from the raging you would see I put about stacking PDT and MDT gear which was pretty OP, especially with KBs ring.

MDT, PDT, enfeebles, tanking stuff was easy for many jobs in FFXI. Throw in a kraken club and tanks werent holding shit anyways. Plus the non tank NIN was the goto job for tanking. NIN, a DPS job.

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Originally Posted by BHGlobbd

That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

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I do.

WoW turned into this. Its one of the un-fun things about WoW.

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Originally Posted by BHGlobbd

That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

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I do, but not when we are required to farm dungeons hundred of times (like for the relic weapon). Also if the dungeons involved exploration, it wouldn't be a problem.

wear gear appropriate for the level of the dungeon and tell me mobs don't hit hard.

Fool. We're outgearing dungeons by more than 20 levels, ofcourse it's easy!

This boils down to OP wanting the game to play more like XI, probably another tank being yelled at for pulling 1 set at a time and decides to make a thread to feel better about not understanding XIV. Its not broken, its just not what you are used to. If you are not strong enough you cant pull lots of enemies. You are just asking for everyone to be put at your skill level.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

wear gear appropriate for the level of the dungeon and tell me mobs don't hit hard.

Fool. We're outgearing dungeons by more than 20 levels, ofcourse it's easy!

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Honestly they're still easy in level appropriate gear.

Source: farming darklight gear at launch

The first time you do a dungeon, it is fun. It's probably still fun the second or third time. After that, the fun starts to wear thin, and by the hundredth time, you're not there to have fun - you're there to get it done and move on. That's not to say it isn't fun (though many WOULD say that) - it's just that the source of the fun has changed from "I want to explore this new environment" to "I want to progress my character". In any dungeon, you eventually reach the point where you value efficiency over admiring the scenery, and that's where speed runs come into play.

DPS aoe attacks have the greatest damage potential of anything a DPS can do. The more mobs you pull, the more damage your DPS can do using these attacks. When striving for efficiency, the best thing a tank can do is pull as many mobs as they can and still survive and maintain enmity.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Honestly they're still easy in level appropriate gear.

Source: farming darklight gear at launch

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Not easy enough for speed runs. If you try pulling everything, the party will die.

Source: Someone who just leveled for the first time 2 or 3 months ago.

Most dungeons should be pretty easy though. The raids and extremes should be hard. If they make content that's required for the story hard, they would have a much smaller player base.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Not easy enough for speed runs. If you try pulling everything, the party will die.

Source: Someone who just leveled for the first time two months ago.

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Except you can.

Source: have done it.

If you personally can't do it, then w/e, but it's far from impossible.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Except you can.

Source: have done it.

If you personally can't do it, then w/e, but it's far from impossible.

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Sure you have... As if anyone would believe you were doing speed runs without even knowing the dungeons... You are claiming this when in reality you did it with alts who got gear from your main. You don't have the kniwledge or health to do it when firsf leveling, which is what the difficulty is designed for...

If you did it while farming, then you've already pointed out that you had run it a ton of times. Of course you will know the fight by then... If you are farming end game, you also have better gear than someone who just reached it..

I dont see anything wrong with the dungeons in this game. I do wish the new ones that come out were harder but even those drop ilvl gear we are way past already.

You want a harder dungeon try this. Take off all your gear and go in with ilvl gear just under what drops in that dungeon. Then come back and tell us how you can speed run it.

I would like to see them add in a savage edition for each of the dungeons that ramps up the dmg you take.

I'm going to go with over geared.

When something is new. pulling more then 1-2 groups of mobs = death to party.
+ 30 Ilevels later and you can pull 2-5 or to 1st gate.

+ 60 ilevel pull to 1st gate.

Long pulls are what parties who are very overgeared (20+ ilvls above) can do once theyre so familiar with content that it becomes a chore and anything that can be done to speed it up on the hundredth run is appreciated.
As a monk this does not teach me bad habits but instead lets me explore the other side to my class. There is a AoE combo, plus a CD to let a monk loose on the bigger move once the tank has hate. Similar to this BLM has fire 2, or blizzard, and would have to know how to manage MP and the stacks in order to continue their use effectively.
If a tank is losing hate to these classes before theyve managed to build up their umbral/astral or greased lightning then maybe the tank could take some tips on how to speed up their hate generation. Too many tanks are using the wrong moves and newer tanks especially are not learning the correct ways because gear ilvls increased too fast and are not synced low enough. (Garuda HM an example - who cares if OT does his job just burn boss)