Should Alexander hard drop highest item level gear?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I pose a question in return. If you don't need the gear from Savage to down Savage, would you be interested in it? Why?

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For fun and to feel like I've accomplished something.

I haven't been reading the whole conversation between you and whoever, I just noticed this when I skimmed over this page and wanted to answer your question. lol

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I was refering to something similar to what dropped in another game I played. They would have, for example, a helm that dropped that had stats for all classes on it. The stats would be better than any ther helm, but since it was only one piece, it wasn't game breaking in any way. It was also quite a rare drop.

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The general idea is the same I imagine. Though without details of what you are specifically referring to, a better comparison is kind of floating in limbo.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I pose a question in return. If you don't need the gear from Savage to down Savage, would you be interested in it? Why?

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I pose a counter:

You get the gear that lets you faceroll it (Storymode/Tome) to make the content of Storymode/Tome easier.
You get the gear from Savage, to make it easier to get more gear from it. This is a logical progression, and it's exactly why the arguement of "Why are you interested in this gear if you can do it already?!" It's all about that optimization of our classes and being rewarded for performing.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I don't much care for the gear in Coil. I'm managing fine, for the most part, without it and when I finish relic I'll have iL123 with not even one piece of Coil gear. What I DO care for in Coil is it's story. I've been wanting to experience it for a while (damnable Twintania won't give me a pass. >,< ) but haven't wanted to deal with any of the attitude that came with those early Coil groups. An attitude that's, sadly, been bleeding into every other bit of content ever since. This is why you don't see as many people clearing Coil as you do the Japanese servers, the corrosive attitudes of the 'best' US players. An attitude that's too clearly illustrated in this thread...

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Not meant as a personal attack, but in all reality why should raiding content cater to you if you don't have enough drive to beat year and a half old content that's been vastly outgeared?

I love how people think that having top gear that doesn't come from raids, don't help raiders. If RNG is cruel to you in Alex Savage, you will have a decent alternative. If your static is struggling in raids, your members being able to gear up OUTSIDE of raids will help progression.

Having only one source of top end gear hurts EVERYONE. Not just the people that don't raid. But I do think the top gear outside of raids should be much more time consuming to get. Maybe allow people to get tome gear, but to upgrade it to top tier you need really rare items acquired outside of raids.

The things i don't agree with are things like archmagus quest. Where they give out carbontwines for 1.5 hours of playtime. Also 75 poetics for ONE daily roullette is really high IMO.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I pose a counter:

You get the gear that lets you faceroll it (Storymode/Tome) to make the content of Storymode/Tome easier.
You get the gear from Savage, to make it easier to get more gear from it. This is a logical progression, and it's exactly why the arguement of "Why are you interested in this gear if you can do it already?!" It's all about that optimization of our classes and being rewarded for performing.

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Exactly, people want better gear to make their characters feel progressively stronger.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

Not meant as a personal attack, but in all reality why should raiding content cater to you if you don't have enough drive to beat year and a half old content that's been vastly outgeared?

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It's not about the drive. I've been trying, but getting a good group in Finder is a crap-shoot and a group that doesn't Abandon or suffer a plague of Leaves after two wipes even rarer.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Never said it was part of the main story. That period represents a separate thought. He argued that i90 was only needed because the story ends at i90. But there is content besides Coils that uses higher than i90, that was the point you missed.

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Sorry about that, then. Had to go back and read that line a couple of times to see that, but whatever, I only wanted to address the "Shiva EX is story" thing anyway, which got cleared up, and your point about other content needing higher than i90 doesn't affect it in any way. Well, I guess I wouldn't've made it in the first place...

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If you look at equipment in a void, maybe.
But realistically, accuracy has to be made up for somewhere in the gearset.

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WoD gloves happen to have ACC if you need it. Poe gloves are only useful if you need the HP.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Exactly, people want better gear to make their characters feel progressively stronger.

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I believe this is where our opinions diverge.

You should not be as strong as someone who kills beastmen if all you ever do is fight Rabbits. Logical progression suggests that you woudl reach your platue. You might get really good at killing bunnies. But Beastmen are a whole different ballgame.

I like the way gear works on major patches (2.2/2.4) - You can buy the next "Step" of tome gear, but if you want the -best- gear (i120 vs i130), you needed to do Coil to get the best pieces. This made it so that people weren't prevented from buying Tomestone gear and could progress (awesome) while keeping the players who did the hard content advancing/progressing at a decent rate (rewarding and awesome.)

Won't deny putting it on WoD/Hunts helped me out for gearing some of my classes, too, though. :3

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Sorry about that, then. Had to go back and read that line a couple of times to see that, but whatever, I only wanted to address the "Shiva EX is story" thing anyway, which got cleared up, and your point about other content needing higher than i90 doesn't affect it in any way. Well, I guess I wouldn't've made it in the first place...

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Re-reading what I wrote I probably should have indented after that first sentence so I apologize.

Kill 5000 rabbits vs 1 beastman. The Tome gear is locked behind a low weekly cap for a reason on top of the once a week lock out for the upgrade. Raid content always has superior gear for the large majority of the raid's life. Then the major patch reset happens and they are back to having the superior gear for several more months.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I don't much care for the gear in Coil. I'm managing fine, for the most part, without it and when I finish relic I'll have iL123 with not even one piece of Coil gear. What I DO care for in Coil is it's story. I've been wanting to experience it for a while (damnable Twintania won't give me a pass. >,< ) but haven't wanted to deal with any of the attitude that came with those early Coil groups. An attitude that's, sadly, been bleeding into every other bit of content ever since. This is why you don't see as many people clearing Coil as you do the Japanese servers, the corrosive attitudes of the 'best' US players. An attitude that's too clearly illustrated in this thread...

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I'm sorry but why are you posting here in a thread about alex hm? You've already won. You're getting what you want with the easy mode alex (and probably the coils when they said they're nerfing it further in 3.0). Nevermind the people that enjoy having to tackle a challenge to get to the story, they already got the shaft with the easy mode request because the first time they'll see the raid story will have to be through the easy mode since it'll likely be a gear gate for the hard mode. I guess they don't matter, right? But why are you also meddling with the alex hm discussion? It shouldn't even be your concern anymore since you only care about the story?

By the way, it's not the small percentage coil clearers' job to increase that percentage. Especially when the majority of players loves to tell them that "they don't matter".

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Kill 5000 rabbits vs 1 beastman. The Tome gear is locked behind a low weekly cap for a reason on top of the once a week lock out for the upgrade. Raid content always has superior gear for the large majority of the raid's life. Then the major patch reset happens and they are back to having the superior gear for several more months.

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Over exaggeration does not suit your arguement.

Expert roulette gives 75 Poetics per day. 40 minutes each. Capped within 6 days.
Coil takes 1 hour once mastered, and multiple hours per week to learn for many.

At best, you could argue 6 rabbits to 1 beastman. ;) but this subject is getting slightly off course now.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Over exaggeration does not suit your arguement.

Expert roulette gives 75 Poetics per day. 40 minutes each. Capped within 6 days.
Coil takes 1 hour once mastered, and multiple hours per week to learn for many.

At best, you could argue 6 rabbits to 1 beastman. ;) but this subject is getting slightly off course now.

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I made an silly exaggeration because the concept of comparing it to killing a beast-man and rabbits was silly.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I made an silly exaggeration because the concept of comparing it to killing a beast-man and rabbits was silly.

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But you're missing the original point of the "Silly" (I kinda like it 'cause it makes sense) arguement. And that was that the players clearing coil DO need the gear. To make their runs easier. To make the next step of each fight more consistent. To progress. Just because you don't need it to clear, doesn't mean it isn't something you need to progress.

Just like it would be silly not to give gear for those completing dungouns. They need gear to clear dungouns. But does it need to be -just as strong- as the gear that comes from raiding?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

But you're missing the original point of the "Silly" (I kinda like it 'cause it makes sense) arguement. And that was that the players clearing coil DO need the gear. To make their runs easier. To make the next step of each fight more consistent. To progress. Just because you don't need it to clear, doesn't mean it isn't something you need to progress.

Just like it would be silly not to give gear for those completing dungouns. They need gear to clear dungouns. But does it need to be -just as strong- as the gear that comes from raiding?

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They don't NEED the gear. They want the gear. There is a difference. If it was needed then progression through t13 would have been impossible with lower gear and that has already been proven not to be the case. And even further still a player having i130 Ironworks gear doesn't suddenly make the i130 Dreadwyrm gear lose its meaning. It is still Dreadwrym gear and the prestige of having down the content is still there.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

They don't NEED the gear.[...] If it was needed then progression through t13 would have been impossible with lower gear and that has already been proven not to be the case,

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How often do you see peopel clearing with that level of gear? How often do you see people trying to -go in- or even -make- that level of gear? It's a very rare, very SMALL percentage of people that will go for full pentamelded i110 gear. If your arguement is that "Well this group could do it with X!" then I could argue, you don't need 8 people for T5. But are you going to go with just 4? Are you going to go with a full team of SCH + Marauders because Xeno did it?

Another fun fact: you DO need i130 gear for raiding now. Because without it, you can't enter. That i110/T10, i115/T11, i120/12, and i123/T13 aren't going to magically reach that number on their own ;) Meanwhile there is not a single piece of content outside of FCOB that requires anything above i110.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

How often do you see peopel clearing with that level of gear? How often do you see people trying to -go in- or even -make- that level of gear? It's a very rare, very SMALL percentage of people that will go for full pentamelded i110 gear. If your arguement is that "Well this group could do it with X!" then I could argue, you don't need 8 people for T5. But are you going to go with just 4? Are you going to go with a full team of SCH + Marauders because Xeno did it?

Another fun fact: you DO need i130 gear for raiding now. Because without it, you can't enter. That i110/T10, i115/T11, i120/12, and i123/T13 aren't going to magically reach that number on their own ;) Meanwhile there is not a single piece of content outside of FCOB that requires anything above i110.

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You still don't need the drops. You can easily make do with Ironworks gear and WoD gear.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I made an silly exaggeration because the concept of comparing it to killing a beast-man and rabbits was silly.

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The comparison was more or less spot on. There's a pretty drastic difference between being able to maim something that poses no challenge and something that's on more than equal footing with you. The fact that you're able to receive the same reward for killing any amount of metaphorical rabbits would imply that you're on the same level as someone who can slay a Beastman.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

The comparison was more or less spot on. There's a pretty drastic difference between being able to maim something that poses no challenge and something that's on more than equal footing with you. The fact that you're able to receive the same reward for killing any amount of metaphorical rabbits would imply that you're on the same level as someone who can slay a Beastman.

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Not really. How is Coils vs Tome grinding anything like killing a beastman vs a rabbit? T10 and T11 are no more difficult than Shiva X or even Odin. But that comparison ranks them above them.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

T10 and T11 are no more difficult than Shiva X or even Odin.

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Dude what?

Dude what? O.o

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

T10 and T11 are no more difficult than Shiva X or even Odin. But that comparison ranks them above them.

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Maybe if you actually tried fighting in coil before it added echo and wearing gear at ilvl 110-112, you'd realize you're spouting nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Maybe if you actually tried fighting in coil before it added echo and wearing gear at ilvl 110-112, you'd realize you're spouting nonsense.

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Except there is echo and the player base isn't wearing 110-112.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Except there is echo and the player base isn't wearing 110-112.

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Even considering our current gear level and echo, Odin and Shiva EX aren't anywhere near the same difficulty as T10/11. You are spouting absolute nonsense.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You still don't need the drops. You can easily make do with Ironworks gear and WoD gear.

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honestly, this is just too much to try and argue, because - for all intents and purposes, yea, you can fight in sub-optimal gear just as well as you can fight in pentamelded i110 gear. That doesn't mean your typical static doesn't need the Dreadwyrm gear in order to progress. This goes right back to what I said before - just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you don't NEED the other thing.


I still remember that our BLM got geared out -extremely fast- for Final Coil when I lead my static. They got extremely lucky, getting primary left-side i130 drops almost every time we cleared a turn for the first time. These drops enabled us to be able to clear back when the amount of poetics in circulation were extremely limited. It took us 2-3 weeks per turn to clear a single turn. This is why we needed this gear. Every time we got more pieces, we were advanced to a point where we were stronger for the next turn. The upgrades of our right-side poetics helped from T11. The upgrades of our left side helped from T12. Stronger weapons, etc etc.

To say that people "Don't need it" just because you "Can do it another way" (Such as right now, by going in with a full set of ironworks i110) does not suddenly mean you don't need it. It is another option available to players. And even then, full i130 Ironworks Augmented is not an option to everyone - because not everyone has full poetics for a single class they wanna take in.

So again; yes, the raiders need their i130 gear. To progress. To make their runs smoother. To get better. The non-raiders do not need raid-equivelent gear in order to progress, because it's already designed with the baseline far below what you can buy with those tomestones. Case in point: The hardest dungouns are i90 to enter. You are effectively 10 item levels over this just by buying full Weathered gear.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

That doesn't mean your typical static doesn't need the Dreadwyrm gear in order to progress. This goes right back to what I said before - just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you don't NEED the other thing.

So again; yes, the raiders need their i130 gear. To progress.

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And this whole side-argument doesn't change that Dreadwyrm gear is Dreadwyrm gear and having Ironworks gear i130 doesn't make Dreadwyrm any less meaningful. It gives those players that need that ilvl the chance to progress.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You are flip-flopping on your arguement so much, it's almost impossible to constantly argue against you. You go from arguing "You dont' need this gear" to now "It's not any less meaningful!" I at least appreciate that y ou can agree that people need the ilvl 130 to progress in end-game content.

You know what? Meaningful is subjective. Who are YOU to say what gear "Means" to someone? who am -I- to say what gear "means" to someone? that is something that we can BOTH only speak anectdotaly and personally. We can not try to claim that it is "Any less meaningful" in any capacity for the world.

I know people who are excited at the start of 2.3/2.5 to be able to upgrade to the next tier, who are estatic to get stronger gear.
I know people who dread 2.3/2.5, because they feel it cheapens their weapons. I knew a bard who was so excited to get his i130 Augmented Ironworks bow, and yet as we sat around the pipes in Northern Thanalan, he couldnt' help but say with a disheartened voice, "Kind of sucks that everyone will be able to run around with this in 2.5..."

Meaning is subjective. I'll agree that it helps people progress, but again - tome gear doesn't need to go to i130 outside of coils. It's given to help people catch up, which is good on SE's part.

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Flip-floping? The argument is constantly changing in this thread, but nothing I've said has been flip-floping. I have already said from several pages back that FCoB gear isn't needed to down FCoB. I have already said from several pages back that Dreadwyrm gear is Dreadwyrm gear and i130 Ironworks gear doesn't ruin any sense of prestige from wearing it. I mentioned that players like to feel like their character is progressively getting stronger, that combined with everything else is why there is no reason to restrict i130 to Coils drops at the end of the raids lifespan.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

And this whole side-argument doesn't change that Dreadwyrm gear is Dreadwyrm gear and having Ironworks gear i130 doesn't make Dreadwyrm any less meaningful. It gives those players that need that ilvl the chance to progress.

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Which players again? Non raiders? Progress in what? light dungeons they're already clearing within the first day they entered it?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

And this whole side-argument doesn't change that Dreadwyrm gear is Dreadwyrm gear and having Ironworks gear i130 doesn't make Dreadwyrm any less meaningful. It gives those players that need that ilvl the chance to progress.

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You are flip-flopping on your arguement so much, it's almost impossible to constantly argue against you. You go from arguing "You dont' need this gear" to now "It's not any less meaningful!" I at least appreciate that y ou can agree that people need the ilvl 130 to progress in end-game content.

You know what? Meaningful is subjective. Who are YOU to say what gear "Means" to someone? who am -I- to say what gear "means" to someone? that is something that we can BOTH only speak anectdotaly and personally. We can not try to claim that it is "Any less meaningful" in any capacity for the world.

I know people who are excited at the start of 2.3/2.5 to be able to upgrade to the next tier, who are estatic to get stronger gear.
I know people who dread 2.3/2.5, because they feel it cheapens their weapons. I knew a bard who was so excited to get his i130 Augmented Ironworks bow, and yet as we sat around the pipes in Northern Thanalan, he couldnt' help but say with a disheartened voice, "Kind of sucks that everyone will be able to run around with this in 2.5..."

Meaning is subjective. I'll agree that it helps people progress, but again - tome gear doesn't need to go to i130 outside of coils. It's given to help people catch up, which is good on SE's part.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

Alexander HM doesn't give exclusive gear models. They've explicitly stated this.

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Nowhere I have seen any SE rep say this. In the worst case scenario, the Alexander HM gear will be dyeable versions of the NM gear which would still be an exclusive model gained by completing Alexander HM.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Nowhere I have seen any SE rep say this. In the worst case scenario, the Alexander HM gear will be dyeable versions of the NM gear which would make still an exclusive model gained by completing Alexander HM.

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I won't be able to find it amongst the tons of interviews that have come out, but Yoshi himself said it during an interview around Fanfest. And no, dye does not make it a unique model. That just makes it dyeable.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Nowhere I have seen any SE rep say this. In the worst case scenario, the Alexander HM gear will be dyeable versions of the NM gear which would make still an exclusive model gained by completing Alexander HM.

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That would kinda make it bad in its own way. Players who dont raid will cry about it because they can't use it for glamour because they can't color coordinate. Just like they did when they made twine available at something like 3000 seals. Except now this is even more unreachable for them.

I'm on the believe that anything hard should not have any link with what the casuals can attain, reward wise. Otherwise they're just gonna think it's within their birthright to have any reward based on meritocracy without actually reaching to those merits.

Just thought I'd chime in again.

The fact that they've announced Alexander Story and Savage should be a win-win. They know more people want to experience raid storylines, so they're adding in a difficulty level that will be great for them to experience that. Mind you, unlike 'Story' Primals (HM or NM) they're keeping a reward in place. I'd be grateful of that, because I personally didn't think they'd reward people for it, given recent examples.

So I ask again, for anyone who wants to give a legitimate reason...Why shouldn't people be adequately rewarded in a similar fashion, if they want to show that they can perform on a greater level? Savage will be available to everyone, so why? I could only assume because people feel like it's systematically excluding them with difficulty, and they don't feel like they should work hard for gear. That's not a good reason to withhold better rewards from people who do care enough to perform.

I mean, all of this is ultimately not worth discussing since they've already decided to do it (and likely because they felt not enough people were motivated to do Savage Second Coil). But...Since so many seem to be in opposition, the answer to that question intrigues me.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

I won't be able to find it amongst the tons of interviews that have come out, but Yoshi himself said it during an interview around Fanfest. And no, dye does not make it a unique model. That just makes it dyeable.

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That makes it third hand info from a second hand source that may not have been properly translated (a common occurrence with info about FFXIV) which means it is unreliable and not quite substantial.

Also, "exclusive" (the word I used) does not mean "unique." Exclusive means restricted to only one source, and if the dyeable model is only gained through Alexander HM then it would be exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

Even considering our current gear level and echo, Odin and Shiva EX aren't anywhere near the same difficulty as T10/11. You are spouting absolute nonsense.

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These kind of things are kinda personal, i too find shiva ex being harder than ANY FcoB turns due having a colorblindness so when those ice things starts to fall i simply dont see a thing. In FcoB there are no issues like that for me thus making it easier compared to shiva.

Besides higher ilvl i think the difference between Alexander Normal and Savage gear will probably be a pallet swap of the same gear, or be dyeable to show that it is the savage version.

Does it really make sense though? To have two copies of the same gear models in your inventory because you need to tackle NM to get gear in HM? What if it's just the same as tome gear? HM drops upgrade materials to upgrade alex gear? What's stopping those people who complained about tome upgrades being temp locked in a raid from complaining about this if that's the case? The ones who can't stop going wahh wahh insta death isnt fair i'm skilled it's the scripted fight's fault etc? The story excuse they used doesn't even seem to be true, just looking at this thread.

NA players to bad to raid this thread shows it. Lulz

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Does it really make sense though? To have two copies of the same gear models in your inventory because you need to tackle NM to get gear in HM? What if it's just the same as tome gear? HM drops upgrade materials to upgrade alex gear? What's stopping those people who complained about tome upgrades being temp locked in a raid from complaining about this if that's the case? The ones who can't stop going wahh wahh insta death isnt fair i'm skilled it's the scripted fight's fault etc? The story excuse they used doesn't even seem to be true, just looking at this thread.

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I would really hope the gear in Savage doesn't look the same as the gear in normal mode. It should look flashier, and hopefully not just some glowy effect. Pretty much a whole better skin, similar to FcoB gear. They are slowly removing all incentives for people to actually do the harder content.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Well, I was using gear I have as a reference. I haven't melded my arachne healer legs yet but it's still better than anything else I can get for my conjurer.

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Huh?

Arachne stats in HQ:

VIT 41
MND 39
ACC 8
DET 20
PIE 31


4 DET = 1 MND. So the 20 DET are 5 MND. So it would be like 44 MND

DW Pants of Healing:

VIT 53
MND 50
PIE 36
ACC 9
Crit 33

Even without the crit, the DW pants are stronger than the Arachne non melded pant and you would need to meld 26 DET and 5 PIE to reach the same level (ignoring crit and the 12 points VIT).

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Source? I never heard them say that at all! The Devs said Alexander NM(or HM w/e people call the easier one now days.)

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Youmissed the very first announcement of Heavendsward in autum? There it got said.