Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

oh and you should not be cussing, that is very immature of you.

mmh... after reading through the last post of the OP here... I'm asking myself: If SE would simply remove rewards from the gold saucer - would the OP be pleased? S/he said that there are a lot of games which people play over and over again - without rewards, because they are fun in itself... what I was trying to say the whole time: A lot of gold saucers activities are fun in itself (at least for me) including the lotteries (and I got the impression that a lot of people agree on that). So the only thing that sours this fun is the fact that there are some people who want to make a grind out of everything? That the shortcut aka lotterys isnt available at any time? I do agree that a grind like the zodiak-dungeon-drop-grind where you've got a fixed chance to get your item isnt excatly great because you cant work towards a goal by repeating it (beside that you're working towards your zodiac ofc, but it doesnt increase the droprate or anything) - with most of the stuff you're doing in the gold saucer you are working towards those rewards - if you're only working for the carrot - you can see your MGP increase by more or less every action (granted, you lose a few when losing a TT-match against an NPC or from the lotterys but its not that much - and no risk no fun!).

I'm fairly confused by now - because everything seems to be the problem now: luck-based games (because some ppl are unlucky), MGP-grind (because some ppl seem to believe that they need this gold saucer stuff within a week after release), rewards (because they make ppl grind and because there are games which are fun without rewards at all)...
Whats the problem now? Reading your posts, OP, I kinda wish for you that there wouldnt be a reward at all - because then you could enjoy all those games just as fun in themselves... maybe...

I am doing so. I'm playing triple triad if I feel like playing triple triad. I'm visting my racing chocobo if I've got nothing else to do. I'm doing the mini-cacpot everyday but might skip one if I'd had bad luck a few times. But while doing all of this I'm actually having fun. I decided I wont look at the MGP I'm counting - one day I'll have enough to buy the stuff I want. I'm not focused on the carrot but on the game itself - and my best advice to everyone would be: Do the same. Be more happy and less bitter...

oh and OP: dont pretend you're worried about ppls health when you actually told me that video games arent something that ruins ppls life, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind?

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It's particularly weird to complain about both of them. The issue is generally about balancing the two. They could reduce RNG by replacing it with more grind, or to some extent the other way around, but removing both leaves no game left, or at least no way of providing rewards within the game.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

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So, by your own definition, the Gold Saucer has no grind. Certainly the game never forces you to do anything because you have to reach some goal. There is no goal except to have fun with the games.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

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So in other words, the "optimal choice" is to do just exactly what they did here. They gave us the games people have been asking for because people want to play them just for the fun of it, and then they added some trivial points to the games for that extra little kick. (At the same time they were careful to ensure you can't get anything for those points except some cosmetics, so they never take over as the primary goal. The primary goal of all the Gold Saucer events will remain the fun of playing them.)

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

So either you did not read them or you did not understand them.

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You're equating people not agreeing with you with not understanding you. Those are quite different things.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

I speak not for everyone, just for the mass of casual and normal gamers. And they are the majority.

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No, you don't speak for them either. Casual normal gamers are fine with having some lighthearted side games alongside their progression content in the main part of the game. It's only those who are completely OCD about having to instantly get every single thing there is to get who would even care about the stuff you're ranting about. That attitude doesn't lead to casual gaming.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

You people know nothing about game development and the statistics of MMO's. But you think you do. That's the main problem in your argumentation (if there is any).

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Statistics? And this coming from someone who said earlier in this thread that the Law of Large Numbers doesn't work in reality.

I just want a better claw game. Compared to Triple Triad and Choco Racing, the other mini games are a bit too basic for my taste. They could definitely could afford to be a bit more flashed out and visually engaging. I wouldn't care if they gave our rewards in check-marks (it's not like anyone would miss the current MP payout), I'd probably play that thing to death. Claw Game Prize Log FTW!

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

A lot of very accurate notes.

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Liked, and wanted to say thanks for the great post.

RobinRethiel, as mentioned, you don't speak for nearly as many people as you even think you do. I was inerested in that I learned that the highest number is not always the best. I thought the game had said the highest was the best . . . or at least that was my assumption playing he game. So far, my highest payout was 300ish. This thread has given me something to think about when I play.

I don't think I'll be using the Solver, as I'm a decent mathematician (not professionaly or anything) and I'd find it more rewarding to win on my own merit but . . . that's what it is. I'm going to the Gold Saucer to play games.

No, you will not always get 987 in a single row. and omg I just realised the largest payout was 123. I've had that in a row and intentionally didn't click it -_- D'oh.

Anyway, it's just a game. Either have fun and play, or don't. No, it's not fair. nothing in life is fair.

While I agree that they could raise the amount of MGP you earn from TT / ChocoRaising, I disagree about the unfairness of the lottery. The lottery isnt suposed to be your main source of MGP income. It's suposed to be a nice bonus that you get once in a while. Most of the time you get your MGP back and then some, and on rare occasions you'll win a nice profit. It works just like its suposed to work. A nice and welcoming bonus that will happen sooner or later if you keep playing.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

mmh... after reading through the last post of the OP here... I'm asking myself: If SE would simply remove rewards from the gold saucer - would the OP be pleased??

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You got some serious problems with understanding somehow, no? Or do you do this on purpose, perverting my words?

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RobinRethiel, as mentioned, you don't speak for nearly as many people as you even think you do. I was inerested in that I learned that the highest number is not always the best. I thought the game had said the highest was the best . . . or at least that was my assumption playing he game. So far, my highest payout was 300ish. This thread has given me something to think about when I play.

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From the statistic, I speak for a few hundert thousands. And you? Ah, you speak for no one, since nothing in this thread would take anything away from you.

All the posts of the contra people hera are all about defending a position, which simply means, that OTHERS should not have luck and fun, too. It's aggression on a very high level. You would lose nothing, but others could gain something and you HATE this. That's why you are posting here.

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While I agree that they could raise the amount of MGP you earn from TT / ChocoRaising, I disagree about the unfairness of the lottery. The lottery isnt suposed to be your main source of MGP income. It's suposed to be a nice bonus that you get once in a while. Most of the time you get your MGP back and then some, and on rare occasions you'll win a nice profit. It works just like its suposed to work. A nice and welcoming bonus that will happen sooner or later if you keep playing.

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Yes, and that's the point. it should be a bonus, not the main source, but at the moment, for many people, it is, while others have to grind out of bad luck. That's the crux.

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So, by your own definition, the Gold Saucer has no grind. Certainly the game never forces you to do anything because you have to reach some goal. There is no goal except to have fun with the games.

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Pointless argument, because when you look at this like that, there is no goal in any game. You are trying to pervert the system to argue.

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So in other words, the "optimal choice" is to do just exactly what they did here. They gave us the games people have been asking for because people want to play them just for the fun of it, and then they added some trivial points to the games for that extra little kick. (At the same time they were careful to ensure you can't get anything for those points except some cosmetics, so they never take over as the primary goal. The primary goal of all the Gold Saucer events will remain the fun of playing them.)

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No, you are ignoring the salient point. It's a cheap trick, but does not work, sorry.

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You're equating people not agreeing with you with not understanding you. Those are quite different things.

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Oh, those would be a different thing, but your imputation is simply wrong. Another cheap trick. Forget such things, I know them. I'm arguing with people much more clever than you most of my time.

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No, you don't speak for them either. Casual normal gamers are fine with having some lighthearted side games alongside their progression content in the main part of the game. It's only those who are completely OCD about having to instantly get every single thing there is to get who would even care about the stuff you're ranting about. That attitude doesn't lead to casual gaming.

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So you spoke to them? So it's your job to speak with them? To understand them? To care for them? No, you don't. And I know this from the lines you wrote. What you are defending here is only hurting normal and casual players and what they would get, if Square changes the system a bit, would help them to have more fun. Again, you try to use tricks to defend a very egoistic point of view.

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Statistics? And this coming from someone who said earlier in this thread that the Law of Large Numbers doesn't work in reality.

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It's not my problem, when you are unable to understand the difference between both.

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This is intresting, but lets break this down. Fun to people is subjective. What they deem as fun, and what you or other deem as fun are 2 different things. What your failing to grasp is that, your not having fun, by losing. But we can't all be winners. People have to lose.

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No. Why? Why do people have to lose? Look at chocobo racing. Sure, you get a bit more XP when you win, but you get XP for every place. So there is no losing. Sure fun is subjective. One of those subjective ways of having fun is brainless grinding. Very, very few people like something like that, still, that is pretty much all what you few guys here are defending. Your personal way of having fun. What I defend is a wider area of fun, so people can CHOSE. And you hate this. Only YOUR fun is allowed. That's sick.

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An MMORPG is by desing a grind.

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This is a lie or you simple don't know what you are talking about.

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But isnt it better that bonus is sigfnificant instead of just a small added bonus? And if you keep playing you will get it. Some might get it more often, but its just a nice bonus. If you dont win you shrug it of, and if you do hit that 10k you'll feel good.

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I don't care for that bonus. It's bad, that you pretty much need it, if you don't want to grind your brain out. And no, there is not in the slightest any guarantee, that you get it. And even if, on the long turn, if someone get's it a few times a year, and others 100 times a year, the average of all those hundredthousands who almost never get it, will pretty much negate this bonus. Sure, those few lucky guys with luck will love Square and never go again (maybe). But on the other side you got those hundredthousands who see this and feel kicked in the teeth. From a game designer point of view, this is catastrophic. Even if those people will not leave, it's a pointer in that direction. And as a game developer you want to avoid such pointers like nothing else.

You may not understand this. Don't know. I'm doing this for years, you possibly never. No prob.

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I've grinded Gaius enough that I've had way more than 99 of eatch of his two common cards. But thats cause I want that card NOW, even tho it probably will be faster to get in the future. RNG & grind; its the nature of the beast.

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Sure. Me, too, kind of, mainly to get some MGP for chocobo racing. But neither me nor you or those few others here are the measure of all things. I'm writing here, because I see the system and what it does to people, what problems normal gamer got with it. If it would be just for me, I would not care about it. I want to help all those players, who got massive problems with it. And I want to help Square to help them, because when all these people are happy, they will stay and they will tell others, how great this game and Square is. Not because they are hardcore gamers or fanboys/girls, but because it's a fun game "everyone" can be happy with. You will never see such people talking to their friends, how great the grind of game is.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

"Fun comes first. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong." -Naoki Yoshida
See, he knows it. It does not work out as planed sometimes, thing like that happen, but he knows, what is important. Grind - by its definition - is never fun.

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An MMORPG is by desing a grind. Getting tomes is a grind, leveling classes is a grind, getting Dreadwyrm gear is a grind, getting the special mounts is a grind. Everything is a grind. And if it wasnt nobody would play. Everyone would have full their Dreamwyrm sets after one down. Cause if you they; its a grind. It's the only way mmorpgs work. It would be impossible to create enough content if there wasnt a grind. How long the grinds is for certain items can be discussed, but I think Square Enix is really good as making the grind shorter / better when the content is not brand new. Older coils is easier / more PUg friendly, relic grind is shortened. Not many other mmorpgs I have played have really done this.

If you want that new shiny right now; get to it and grind! Or you can wait and it will probably be made easier in the future and more people will have it and also making it less special.

I've grinded Gaius enough that I've had way more than 99 of eatch of his two common cards. But thats cause I want that card NOW, even tho it probably will be faster to get in the future. RNG & grind; its the nature of the beast.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Yes, and that's the point. it should be a bonus, not the main source, but at the moment, for many people, it is, while others have to grind out of bad luck. That's the crux.

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But isnt it better that bonus is sigfnificant instead of just a small added bonus? And if you keep playing you will get it. Some might get it more often, but its just a nice bonus. If you dont win you shrug it of, and if you do hit that 10k you'll feel good.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Arrogant rambling...

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Actually you speak for 1 person, yourself. Quit being an arrogant troll trying to tell everyone that something is a problem for the masses when you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it. Nobody here is trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying the game, get over yourself. Oh someone disagrees with you, they must not understand you or just be an elitist jerk. Great logic there.

"This is a lie or you simple don't know what you are talking about."

Name me one mmorpg that isnt a grind. Everyting in mmorpgs is a grind. It just depends on how long.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Actually you speak for 1 person, yourself. Quit being an arrogant troll trying to tell everyone that something is a problem for the masses when you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it. Nobody here is trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying the game, get over yourself. Oh someone disagrees with you, they must not understand you or just be an elitist jerk. Great logic there.

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You are an "elitist jerk" as yo call it, because you are arguing like one. That's not my fault, you behave like that, I'm not forcing you to do this. When you look at this forum, it's pretty much dead. There are not many threads and posts in comparison to the mass of people who play it. And that many people like you are here, who shower anyone who wants to make this game better for casual and normal gamers with hate, may, on the long term, become a problem for Square.

It's not a good thing, when people avoid an official forum, because they think it is toxic...

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Name me one mmorpg that isnt a grind. Everyting in mmorpgs is a grind. It just depends on how long.

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It's still not an inherent part of a MMORPG, no matter how often it occurs. Grinding is bad and easy game design. That's why many bad companies are using it.
Slavery has been a part of human societies over thousands of years. Still, slavery is no inherent part of a society. It's just very lucrative, so it occurred very oftern.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

I speak not for everyone, just for the mass of casual and normal gamers.

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I find this very interesting that you've put yourself up on this pedestal.

You say you speak for the mass of gamers, yet here, in this thread, is a representation of the typical gamer.
I have seen many threads in this forum, with many of the people agreeing, disagreeing, having conflicting opinions and varying gamestyles.
I would say this forum is a very accurate representation of the mass population of FFXIV players.

And yet, here you stand alone, on your pedestal, with absolutely nobody agreeing with the words you continuously spout out.
Has it ever occurred to you that you in fact do NOT speak for the mass majority, as we are here, some fortunate enough to win the grand prize, some having never even seen it, some grinding MGP for their mounts, others not even stepping foot in the gold saucer yet, and unanimously, we are all saying - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the system.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

You say you speak for the mass of gamers, yet here, in this thread, is a representation of the typical gamer.
I have seen many threads in this forum, with many of the people agreeing, disagreeing, having conflicting opinions and varying gamestyles.
I would say this forum is a very accurate representation of the mass population of FFXIV players..

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Not in the slightest. Do you really think, especially casual gamers are caring for forums? Really?

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So lets compare your mini-lottery to chocobo racing. Despite not winning the 10k, you still win SOMETHING. So technically your not losing either, your just not winning the full amount. I don't defend the grind, I deal with it because I want to be the best. There are other reasons to do things than fun. I'm also not forcing you to my way of fun, because you know what, if your not having fun, then you need to just leave, and the door is over there. No one forces you to play, but I'd assume you enjoy the rest of the game, and you've made a lot of friends, so why are you letting this thing bother you so much? Either way, you have cheesburgers in your ears, done trying to explain anything to you, and I suggest others just leave this thread alone, and let her rant in peace.

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You can lose. And you can pretty much win nothing. That happens to many people.

And I will not go. No matter how much all of you are murmuring. None of you would lose anything. Still you cry havoc, as if someone would try to steal your cookies. Yes, I got many friends, I hear, what they say, what they like, dislike and I also care about others, who are not my friends, but people, people who are playing the same game, are paying the same money and deserve to have fun, too. To have more fun, not less, just because they have to work, can't play so much or want to play with their FRIENDS, instead of grinding a lifeless NPC for weeks.

I know you are wrong, everyone can see this, because you are not even defending your own point, you are only attacking that of others, out of simple resentment. Others should not have fun, too. It's like those little apes, who don't like their fruits anymore, if others get them, too.

If you want to feel special, do something else than playing a game. Because it is nothing special. Especially not grinding. If you want to have something unique, draw a picture or carve a piece of soap. Don't rant against others in a CO-OP game.

Just be honest: You would hate the idea, that some more people got a Fenrir, Turtle or a Gambler outfit. That's the only reason for your hate. Because yours would not be so special anymore. And that's just **** sad.

"It's still not an inherent part of a MMORPG, no matter how often it occurs. Grinding is bad and easy game design. That's why many bad companies are using it.
Slavery has been a part of human societies over thousands of years. Still, slavery is no inherent part of a society. It's just very lucrative, so it occurred very oftern."

Lol. After reading your other replys I dont even know why I entered this discussion.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Not in the slightest. Do you really think, especially casual gamers are caring for forums? Really?

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Good thing they have you here to be their one true voice. Keep fighting the man brother, you are the modern day MLK.

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No. Why? Why do people have to lose? Look at chocobo racing. Sure, you get a bit more XP when you win, but you get XP for every place. So there is no losing. Sure fun is subjective. One of those subjective ways of having fun is brainless grinding. Very, very few people like something like that, still, that is pretty much all what you few guys here are defending. Your personal way of having fun. What I defend is a wider area of fun, so people can CHOSE. And you hate this. Only YOUR fun is allowed. That's sick.

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So lets compare your mini-lottery to chocobo racing. Despite not winning the 10k, you still win SOMETHING. So technically your not losing either, your just not winning the full amount. I don't defend the grind, I deal with it because I want to be the best. There are other reasons to do things than fun. I'm also not forcing you to my way of fun, because you know what, if your not having fun, then you need to just leave, and the door is over there. No one forces you to play, but I'd assume you enjoy the rest of the game, and you've made a lot of friends, so why are you letting this thing bother you so much? Either way, you have cheesburgers in your ears, done trying to explain anything to you, and I suggest others just leave this thread alone, and let her rant in peace.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Just be honest: You would hate the idea, that some more people got a Fenrir, Turtle or a Gambler outfit. That's the only reason for your hate. Because yours would not be so special anymore. And that's just **** sad.

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You do realize why people play MMORPGs right? About why they choose to play this medium or any other multiplayer game and stick with it. A big reason is to stand out in some way. I mean, ask yourself: why do "I" want those vanity goods? Why is vanity so important to people that play? Why do people have a problem just looking the same as anyone else? Why do "I" care about getting these things as soon as possible?

Seriously, ask yourself those questions. You might surprise yourself, especially if you end up having to rethink your answer because it turned out to be vain LOL.

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You can lose. And you can pretty much win nothing. That happens to many people.

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You just said you win "Pretty much nothing". You still lose chocobo races by not coming in first place. Do you even know what your saying anymore? btw gonna leave this hear, you said this in another post so you can see.

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Look at chocobo racing. Sure, you get a bit more XP when you win, but you get XP for every place.

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And I will not go. No matter how much all of you are murmuring. None of you would lose anything. Still you cry havoc, as if someone would try to steal your cookies.

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Thats cool, I'm glad you won't go. We won't lose anything but why change something that isn't broke because its not fair to -YOU-

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Yes, I got many friends, I hear, what they say, what they like, dislike and I also care about others, who are not my friends, but people, people who are playing the same game, are paying the same money and deserve to have fun, too.

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I agree with you, but why do you deserve to have everything your way? I said this once before, but if your not having fun, then it obviously isn't for you. Why should you be entitled to have it changed? I pay money my subscription too.

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To have more fun, not less, just because they have to work, can't play so much or want to play with their FRIENDS, instead of grinding a lifeless NPC for weeks.

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No one is forcing people to grind out MGP for anything. If they want the vanity items, then they have to work, just like everybody else, Or get lucky. Which is why you started this thread in the first place, a hate on RNG. I get it RNG sucks, but you have to deal with it. I've played games with worse RNG, but you know what, you find other fun things to do. MGP might be a grind but I LOVE playing TT, its -FUN- so is Chocobo Racing, its -FUN-

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I know you are wrong, everyone can see this, because you are not even defending your own point, you are only attacking that of others, out of simple resentment. Others should not have fun, too. It's like those little apes, who don't like their fruits anymore, if others get them, too.

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Pretty sure everyone is pointing and laughing at you my dear, not me. You're the one throwing the hissy fit, and not listening. I feel like I'm watching a small child who wants something, and I told you no, so you bop your head on the wall till you get it.

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If you want to feel special, do something else than playing a game. Because it is nothing special. Especially not grinding. If you want to have something unique, draw a picture or carve a piece of soap. Don't rant against others in a CO-OP game.

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Who said I wanted to feel special? What because I enjoy playing my class/job to its fullest? Beating the hardest content? Doesn't make me special, alot of people enjoy that stuff.

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Just be honest: You would hate the idea, that some more people got a Fenrir, Turtle or a Gambler outfit. That's the only reason for your hate. Because yours would not be so special anymore. And that's just **** sad.

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Somebody on Balmung already got the Fenrir mount, kudos to them for saving up for 2 weeks for it, and not making a huge thread on the forums about how lottery tickets aren't fair.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

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Need I remind you that your thread is mini-lottery maybe a bit more 'fair' not mini-lottery maybe a bit more 'fun', people went to great lengths to explain to you that it is fair for a lottery style mini game but you just ignored, dismissed or refused to take what they said on board. Fun on the other hand is subjective, your personal preference for what makes something fun is not always the same as another persons, this game caters to more than just yourself. Some people find fun in working hard to achieve something aka chasing the carrot on the stick, some find fun in gambling like taking a chance or trying your luck which may or may not pay off, some find fun in high risk and some low risk ventures/activities (mini lottery in this game is quick, low risk easy profit on pretty much every ticket).

If there was no 'carrot' you would not even be doing the mini cactpot if your honest about it because you clearly do not consider it fun even with the level of carrot reward currently attached so without a carrot you would find it even less fun. MGP is as much a carrot as the vanity items bought with it. A carrot on a stick is nothing more than gaining something you want or need by requiring you to put in effort to obtain it. Grind is itself not a carrot, it is the method for obtaining the carrot and in the mini cactpot the carrot is the MGP. Would you prefer it if they removed the carrot? If so would you still play the scratch cards when there is no reward for it or are you simply confusing 'carrot' with grind, wanting no grind but keeping the carrot? The reality is you cannot remove the grind for it unless they grant you 100% chance of getting exactly what you want or need on your first try in everything you do.

As I said grind is not the reward, it is not the carrot. The carrot is both the MGP as well as the vanity items bought with MGP yet 'carrot' is what you said above in your own words that they do not need. Even if they removed the MGP reward for taking part in things and the grinding of that reward to buy other things...unless you want 100% success rate on everything in GS then your still 'grinding' content and the carrot still exists if there is something your trying to obtain from doing that content. The only way to have no grind is to only require doing something 'once' to get everything you want from it with no chance of failure. Also do not mistake 'not feeling like a grind' with the fact it is a grind even if you do not feel like it is...anything you repeat multiple times in an attempt to gain something you want or need is a grind regardless of whether it feels like one to you.

Pretty much every RTS game I can think of uses grinds whether your grinding levels or grinding resources and more, so I guess every single RTS is a bad game by your logic of grind equals bad game. In fact I reckon you would be hard pressed to name a single RTS game or MMO that does not have any grind. They all use the carrot on a stick as well whether it is higher scores, improved ranks, better items, stronger units, reaching/unlocking more maps or even trying to reach the next cutscene/cinematic etc to see the next part of the story plus many other such things...if you was a good game designer you would know this. In my opinion for someone who claims to be a game designer you seem to have a lack of knowledge about game mechanics, how and where they have been implemented plus their purpose in the grand scheme of things.

I will also add one more thing and that is since you proclaim to be a game developer and are specifically trying to use that position against SE's design choices, how about you list some of the games you have worked on especially ones that can be verified you personally played a part in creating so we can have some idea about the quality of your own work and of special note would be any MMO's you developed since you seem so happy to tell SE how to make theirs from a developers stand point...you being the one who tried to use your un-verified credibility as a game designer to berate them and others on their game design choices after all rather than just stating your opinion as a customer or player.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

You got some serious problems with understanding somehow, no? Or do you do this on purpose, perverting my words?

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Nope, the only one turning words around like he wants to is you I'm afraid. But yes, I'm afraid I totally fail to understand and follow your thoughts now. Let me try to sum up what I got, okay?

1) Minicacpot is unfair because you can (but cant everytime) win a decent amount of MGP - you were told several times that people are fine with a lottery being luck based. Cant see why you dont understand that here are actually people not aggreing with you and that for a good reason since this is totally "working as intended"

2) Grinds are a bad thing - granted, they can be a bad thing. You said yourself there are as soon as you have to do boring content over and over again but most people seem to consider Gold Saucer content as fun - the ones who posted here, people I know, everyone I see standing around in the Gold Saucer for hours. If people wouldnt consider it fun it would be pretty much dead, wouldnt it? Concepts of fun may differ and I accept that "fun" doesnt mean the same thing for me as it does for you - could you please accept that too and stop pretending like everyone who doesnt agree with you about this subject is a idiot, grinder or elitst player who you dont have to care about? Could you also explain what "fun" means to you that you dont find it in the Gold Saucer? I repeat: Triple Triad itself is fun for me, Chocobo Racing is, the lotterys are (at there current state!) - dont enjoy GATEs and minigames that much but I dont have to care about them, right? I've got the impression the only thing that you consider fun is getting those rewards and not playing any content. (thats why I asked you earlier if those games would mean any fun for you if it wasnt about the rewards - sadly you didnt answerd that but instead claimed that I'm not clever enough to understand you...)

3) MGP are to much of a grind - well, they might are - you're kind of right when you're saying that the only "good" source for MGP is the lottery. But what a lot of people were trying to explain to you is that you dont have to grind this. You dont need fenrir or the gamblers outfit for anything but for yourself - and people who decided that they need it that badly are kinda happy to have a goal they can aim for. Oh but, wait, those are stupi elitst who only want to feel special, aye? Everyone can decided for themself if they want to make gold saucer another grind - and I feel pitty for the people who are doing that...

People keep telling you that they're having fun with all this stuff in the gold saucer - and your answer is: "Well, no, you dont have fun in there you're only saying so because you're elitst/fanboys/being brainwashed by SE". You're not being contructive or "clever" as you claim. You keep jumping from on topic onto another as soon as you realise that you lost ground. You claim to speak for the majority while the majority actually speaks against you - casual players arent looking/writing at the forum? mmh... what are you then...?
You need to change your attitude towards this game when something that is considered to be pure fun in itself bothers you so much that you fail to see that other people are actually just having fun with casual playing of triple triad... the only thing you're looking is "I didnt got lucky today because I didnt got the first prize, fix that!" - and if thats the only thing that you consider fun, I'm sorry for you. If you wanna win everytime go and do something else in this beautiful game - but leave the one thing where you can lose because it is meant to be like that alone...

And I would be really curious what you consider "fun" and why the gold saucer in itself doesnt mean any fun to you (and I'm sorry if you already answered that anywhere but I admit I lost a bit of track since you keep editing your posts everytime you want to...)

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

I were not and I am not. I'm actually making money as a game designer

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Which game are you even designing, is it making big money and a big hit yet?

Reading your replies hurts a bit as you don't seem to be consistent and a big round about the milky way before coming back to Earth again. If you can't convince, confuse - so they say?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Which game are you even designing, is it making big money and a big hit yet?

Reading your replies hurts a bit as you don't seem to be consistent and a big round about the milky way before coming back to Earth again. If you can't convince, confuse - so they say?

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She's consistently inconsistent.

TBH I hope her employer can see her comments here. Would second guess her competence as a game designer in reaction, I would wager.

...If in fact she IS a game designer. after all she admitted she flipped a coin 50 times and got the same side 50 times in a row.

Though I can see how it may appear unfair to you because you've got cards that will never give a 10k payout,
I'm pretty sure that it is fair in terms of the odds of drawing out a card with the 10k payout option. Meaning to say, everyone has the same chances of drawing such a card.

So technically it isn't unfair? more like.. you've just been unlucky and looking at this issue in a wrong way.
you can still argue for everyone to have a card with a 10k payout option, but that would not improve fairness, only its transparency.

and besides, even if it is really unfair, mini-lottery isn't that game breaking because MGP isn't an exclusive currency that can only be obtained through mini-lottery.. there are alternative methods to earn MGP. E.g. triple triad, gates, choco racing, etc.

It's just a bit of fun. I've only won the 10k once, doesn't bother me at all. It would be far worse if every tickes could win 10k, everyone would have too much then.

Since Square told in another thread, that they will raise the MGP gains, I close this pointless discussion here from my side. Goal reached.

They said they were raising the MGP of chocobo races, not making the lottery pay out more. Not to mention, they were planning on doing that before you even made this thread.

Whatever goals you set out for this thread, they were only met to the extent that they helped you bow out "gracefully".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

It's still not an inherent part of a MMORPG, no matter how often it occurs. Grinding is bad and easy game design. That's why many bad companies are using it.
Slavery has been a part of human societies over thousands of years. Still, slavery is no inherent part of a society. It's just very lucrative, so it occurred very oftern.

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Please go read the discourse Immanuel Kant has on this in the Moral Law, then go and read Rousseau's Social Contact on the theorising of the surrendering of personal liberties. Then after all this please come back to the forums with a little insight and humility on why this analogy was very very very poorly chosen. I am actually shocked that someone would actually compare MMO grinding to slavery.

As someone that's not going through 15 pages and only the first couple of pages

MGP, along with the concept of gold saucer, is in a casino fashion. Especially for a lottery, is random. The thing I don't agree with is the uneven rewards for MGP that all points to TT farming; even if you wanted to raise a racing chocobo, TT farming is more efficient than chocobo racing itself.

On the lottery ticket itself, I've only gotten one ticket where it was possible to get a 10k reward, and one occasion where even following the best odds got me a 36 reward (which is a net loss). RNG is RNG when it comes to these tickets. You can work out the numbers to try to maximize your winnings, but that's not to say you can work out the numbers to always get 10k or even anything higher than 300. Your winnings really is only as high as the tickets will allow you to get (Which you have absolutely no influence on)

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Please go read the discourse Immanuel Kant has on this in the Moral Law, then go and read Rousseau's Social Contact on the theorising of the surrendering of personal liberties. Then after all this please come back to the forums with a little insight and humility on why this anaolgy was very very very poorly chosen. I am actually shocked that someone would actually compare MMO grinding to slavery.

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GD! Not enough like buttons so I just repost for emphasis. But for real...indentured servitude = MMO Grind. Ok...now that that is sorted out. Let's talk about loot tables...

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

This daily lottery is somehow something nice, but to be honest, it's a BIT unfair, when some people already won 40.000 MGP with it, and other never had even the CHANCE on a single 10k or 3,6k prize. If this continues like that, some people will just get hundredthousands of MGP, while other don't got 10% of this.

It would be one thing, if there would be any other way to get such intense amount of MGP, but somehow the Gold Saucer is really mainly a Casino like this - in the bad way and hell: for Chocobo raising you pretty much need all those MGP.

I don't really get, why you implement it like this. You nerfed retainers, so they will not bring people raid stuff, but now, with Gold Saucer, it's back and even worse.

All things, which bring most MGP, are 100% luck based, even the Typhoon Gate, the only one which gives 1600 MGP, is 100% RNG.

I mean, I really would like to understand: why?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Since Square told in another thread, that they will raise the MGP gains, I close this pointless discussion here from my side. Goal reached.

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Lulz.... If all you wanted was higher GP gains... you should have said so from the beggining. You got so far off topic defending your silly point you don't even know why you started this thread to begin with. Besides, its not overall MGP increase, its just chocobo racing..

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Greetings,

Thank you for the specific feedback regarding the process of raising your chocobo to the highest class rating, and MGP rewards for each class.

We’re planning to increase the amount of MGP obtained from chocobo races, so we'd like to ask you to wait just a bit longer. :)

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So you made a thread for nothing, about dumb stuff, to make yourself look bad.. so weird.. I'll never understand people.. btw this is the thread right here.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Lulz.... If all you wanted was higher GP gains... you should have said so from the beggining. You got so far off topic defending your silly point you don't even know why you started this thread to begin with. Besides, its not overall MGP increase, its just chocobo racing..



So you made a thread for nothing, about dumb stuff, to make yourself look bad.. so weird.. I'll never understand people.. btw this is the thread right here.

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No, you are just unable to understand, but I can't help you there.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

No, you are just unable to understand, but I can't help you there.

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Or you just don't understand how dumb and pointless your thread was. Since apparently increasing MGP from chocobo racing means goal reached:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Since Square told in another thread, that they will raise the MGP gains, I close this pointless discussion here from my side. Goal reached.

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I'll reiterate:

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You should have just made a post saying that the reward for chocobo racing should be increased

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

No, you are just unable to understand, but I can't help you there.

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It is more of the reverse. If you are the only one here thinking you are right but everyone else thinks you are otherwise, the latter is probably right.

Go figure.

OH yeah you haven't reply what games are you designing? Must have been good stuff. Tell us, we need to play them to learn about good game designs.

It took some time but I read this entire thread and through all the incongruencies in robin's "facts" and just washing off everyone, literally everyone), who doesn't agree with him/her I think it's safe to say that S/he is simply arguing to argue. Clearly Robin speaks for no one but him/herself and at that does a very poor job at it. You simply cannot have an MMO without grind and the fact that Robin never laid out a framework to prove against that only further justifies it.
To you Robin: Take your advice and walk away from the game if it's not fun for you. Clearly you feel your being misunderstood but I think the problem here is you've failed to understand the system to the point of having it snowball to 16 pages of people putting you back on track.

Another one is joining this abandoned thread for nothing but insults. Do you think I would suddenly care about your absolutely pointless opinion? Read your post. There is nothing in it, only accusation. And you think, that you could argue against my OP and all that followed with this? Even more after Square themselves already announced, that they will heighten the possibility to earn MGP, just as one of my wishes was?

And you still come here just to flame me?

Little info for everyone of those, who do this:
No matter how many you are, just because inside this thread your insults are in the majority, they do not become more valuable.

Just accept, that Square also saw, that player should be able to earn more MGP without RNG. That's the reality. No matter how much you ignore it.

And learn to behave. Your hateful insults are bad for the community. People don't go into this forum, because they don't want to get flamed. That's not good.

Quote:

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It is more of the reverse. If you are the only one here thinking you are right but everyone else thinks you are otherwise, the latter is probably right.

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I know smart people. I asked them, if they understand my post. They did. So no, it's not me.
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So, I just asked for closing this thread.

So you're agreeing the mini lottery is ok now?


Couldn't resist

Sometimes having a debate on the internet is a lot like trying to slam a revolving door.

If things keep going as they are, it's just a matter of time before people start making Frozen references (hint hint).

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

And learn to behave. Your hateful insults are bad for the community. People don't go into this forum, because they don't want to get flamed. That's not good.


I know smart people. I asked them, if they understand my post. They did. So no, it's not me.

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I really wanted to leave this thread alone because I know its pointless - because I know you'll never understand what I'm saying or what any of the others said... but I cant hepl it - I have to leave a little note on this... You claim that other people are insulting you by poiting out that you keep snapping at everyone who doesnt agree with you - you just did it again. What you say in your next sentence is: "I've asked people I consider smart, they did understand my - therefor everyone who doesnt understand me is stupid" - you fail to see that someone who doesnt share your opion mustnt be stupid or less clever - s/he simply got another opion. You're not able to accept that at all. You didnt asked to close this thread with a statment like "okay, I can accept that you dont agree with me - that doesnt make my opion less valid but maybe this discussion in the end a bit pointless". What you did instead was claiming an ominous "win" because SE said in another thread that they're going to raise the MGP-reward for chocobo-raising - I remember that I mentioned a few times if simply raising the MGP-reward would be a solution. Instead of you're replying to that as "Yeah, that would be fine" you claimed I didnt understand you... so ähm, yeah - I dont understand you.

But what you did in your last post is simply saying "everyone who doesnt understand me is stupid" - and I consider that an insult (even if I'm having a good laugh about it now and dont feel insulted at all). So, maybe its more on you to "learn to behave"?

What is there to not understand. The thread is named "Thread: Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?" It was discussed and you disliked how the argument was going so over the course of the thread you changed views it seems. Because riddle me this, you did in fact say the below quote correct?

Quote:

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Since Square told in another thread, that they will raise the MGP gains, I close this pointless discussion here from my side. Goal reached.

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This is pretty black and white. Like I said before, you forgot why you made this thread. Now if you meant to make the thread about increasing MGP gains through chocobo racing, you should have made a thread about that instead. So I'm gonna post your thread name again. "Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?". So I ask you, whats not to understand? These are things you said, you typed. You put them in this thread. If you can't understand what I'm saying then I pity you.