SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Det, Crit, Acc, Skill or Spell Speed; these(for the most part) are the only stats you ever get to play around with, and after 3 Coils worth of BiS set making I've lost most of my interest.

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That's about how I feel. I see everything as a glamour too now since everything will eventually be obtainable because of how bland the attributes are currently. I would personally like there to be more unique gear like 11 but I do not miss that gear swapping macros. I didn't mind a lot of the more unique traits but I think that if you look at 11's and XIV's a lot are put in as one category.

Now in 1.0 stats meant to be a bit more didn't they? I came in around 1.19..but I thought things like Mind did more than what they do now.

I don't miss having to deal with Magic Accuracy / Avatar: Physical Acc. / Pet : Magic Acc. etc..but I do miss the little things like "Enhances Repair"

As a casual the 3 months is just enough and then you're back at it again usually. The more hardcore ones you'll never satisfy they'll have it by second week while neglecting everything else. I wonder if it would be too powerful to add small things like "Cover: + X yalms" or a def boost..or even an enmity boost in a way. Make it through Materia or through drops that you turn in to a NPC who can grant special attributes to gear...who knows.

Then again..wouldn't want to make something so powerful that it isn't replaced for three years. I don't know..anything I think up I'm sure there would be a problem. Then again this is why I just play the games and don't design them.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Serious want to go full circle just to be stubborn?

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As far as I'm concerned, you're the one stubbornly cherry picking quotes to try and continue this. Here's what you should focus on;

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Also doesn't change the fact that I want gear to be relevant as gear, which such gear plainly isn't at this point. When you obtain gear like Shikaree's Doublet, you do not look at it as a relevant piece of gear, that is the issue I was highlighting. Saying "I look at it as a source of Company Seals" is either a moot point, or further adding to my point.

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Either that or actually dispute that Crafters aren't just Glamour peddlers, because going "They're useful for Crafters/Desynth so I can make more Glamour gear" really just QEDs my "They're only useful for Glamour".

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Then again..wouldn't want to make something so powerful that it isn't replaced for three years. I don't know..anything I think up I'm sure there would be a problem. Then again this is why I just play the games and don't design them.

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This is why I like this suggestion.

You get to obtain multiple pieces of gear. Look at their unique stats. Go about permanently learning them and then picking between them without having to worry about keeping the gear for the rest of the games life like XI did. If Shikaree's Doublet had High Tide attached to it, absolutely everyone go out of their way to obtain it and it would be far more relevant than "B...but it gives me Seals!". An overpowered example, but you get the idea. Instead of (apparently relevant) gear being something you obtain and instantly cash in, it's something you hold onto and actually treat like gear, even if it does eventually end up in the same state as our current Glamour based wardrobe simulator.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Snip.

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Ok, Well unfortunately I not only don't have a progression static, I am also not new to the game. So if those bosses did get cleared tomorrow I would be facing another slog. It is why I gave up crafting and gathering. Only now it doesn't matter what I do, it will be hours upon hours of bad dice rolls, like how atma's been going.

So I am also tired of the gear treadmill, I just don't see the point for a player that is not in a static.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

As far as I'm concerned, you're the one stubbornly cherry picking quotes to try and continue this. Here's what you should focus on;
Either that or actually dispute that Crafters aren't just Glamour peddlers, because going "They're useful for Crafters/Desynth so I can make more Glamour gear" really just QEDs my "They're only useful for Glamour".
.

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A) Didn't cherry pick a thing. You said specifically no uses but glamour and I specifically gave several uses outside of glamour. You really need to deal with it. Uses exist.

B) Desything is the primary component behind leveling crafters and gatherers yes. The insinuation that it's only good for glamour however is quite false. The 110 slotted gear that was used by Lucrecia to defeat the final coil so quickly proves your point to be false.

I understand that you want stats to be more useful, but ignoring the existing uses won't help you craft a better alternative. It simply shows you are blind to how some people use these items, and any solution you have will likely fail to fill the gaps left behind.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The 110 slotted gear that was used by Lucrecia to defeat the final coil so quickly proves your point to be false.

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You mean the same group that cleared Final Coil with 2.38 level gear? Glad to know crafting is useful to the 1% though.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I understand that you want stats to be more useful, but ignoring the existing uses won't help you craft a better alternative. It simply shows you are blind to how some people use these items, and any solution you have will likely fail to fill the gaps left behind.

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Have you seen my "better alternative"? It's basically just "Force players to use the gear for a bit before treating it like they currently do". I know full well how some people use the gear, my issue has always been that it simply isn't used as gear. Telling me it's useful for crafters over and over doesn't change that. This is what I mean about cherry picking quotes, you basically completely ignored the part I specifically told you to focus on and it seems as though your "excuse" for doing so is "I'll cherry pick you saying this and ignore the rest". Yes I said it's only useful for Glamour. Hyperbole is a thing. Welcome to the internet. Liquidating gear into Seals/parts doesn't make it useful as gear though.

And I'll reiterate this point, because I'll probably have to anyway, but new players simply do not have an easy time in the dungeons which drop this gear. Their options are basically farm the lowest of the Lv50 dungeons for i60 and use any tomestones appropriately. Go do Lost City on an i55 tank solo and see how far you get, then tell me how far you got farming your Protector's Cuirass.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

One use: Some high level crafters make HQ gear for new players. It's not glamor. It's helping out people just starting out (and creating materia in the process).

It may not be the most interesting use from a high level perspective, but it IS a use. And it does help new people catch up a little - especially when dungeons aren't dropping the gear they'd use instead. It also means said new people can focus on leveling and learning their class without worrying about gear as much (whether they're getting it for free from friends, or occasionally dropping by the MB to buy some gear using their hard-earned newbie gil).

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Oh I know, I just found it too entertaining thinking "It's useful because I can use it to further crafting to make gear that makes this gear irrelevant for new players". I mean, if I buy i70, or even i90 as a newb, the gear from dungeons instantly stops being gear for them and starts being Glamour. Not that someone who payed for i70 should even really be in those dungeons all that often (Roulette alone really), since i70 gets you into Scyrus Tower for i100 and i110.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Either that or actually dispute that Crafters aren't just Glamour peddlers, because going "They're useful for Crafters/Desynth so I can make more Glamour gear" really just QEDs my "They're only useful for Glamour".

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One use: Some high level crafters make HQ gear for new players. It's not glamor. It's helping out people just starting out (and creating materia in the process).

It may not be the most interesting use from a high level perspective, but it IS a use. And it does help new people catch up a little - especially when dungeons aren't dropping the gear they'd use instead. It also means said new people can focus on leveling and learning their class without worrying about gear as much (whether they're getting it for free from friends, or occasionally dropping by the MB to buy some gear using their hard-earned newbie gil).

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Ok, Well unfortunately I not only don't have a progression static, I am also not new to the game. So if those bosses did get cleared tomorrow I would be facing another slog. It is why I gave up crafting and gathering. Only now it doesn't matter what I do, it will be hours upon hours of bad dice rolls, like how atma's been going.

So I am also tired of the gear treadmill, I just don't see the point for a player that is not in a static.

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Then don't do it. SE includes a catchup mechanism every few patches. So if something is released in a later patch that you do want to run, you can get yourself geared enough to do it. I'm not in a progression team. Check my achieves, I stopped coil after turn 4 (group fell apart and there was so much else to do, I didn't hunt for a new one). I certainly don't cap every week either.

Step away from gearing and do something else in game, RP, level a different class if you've got any under 50, farm for minions, and if nothing else interests you at that moment, do something else altogether.

I guess all those people making gear for their friends, desynthing dungeon drops, and getting gc from drops must be hallucinating on some serious drugs then, or your just using hyperbole and acting like it's fact.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I guess all those people making gear for their friends, desynthing dungeon drops, and getting gc from drops must be hallucinating on some serious drugs then, or your just using hyperbole and acting like it's fact.

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Or I'm just using hyperbole as hyperbole and you're continuing to cherry pick. Whatever, I'm done here. You can continue to act as though Seals are relevant long after I've admitted to using hyperbole on that point if you like. Seals and Desynth still don't make gear useful as gear.

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Originally Posted by Felis

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...naoki_yoshida/


Thread closed ???

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This is interesting and I hope that they are careful if and when they decide to do this. Adding in certain stat bonuses has to take into consideration the jobs/classes that can wear that gear. Any armor that a Summoner can wear cannot only give Summoner-specific stat bonuses. There would have to be something for Black Mages, as well, and that makes for a difficult balancing act.

Even if I did cherry pick something (which I haven't) that doesn't get you off the hook for sweeping generalizations and hyperbole regarding the usefulness of gear. People have expressed usages and you want to keep getting picky and finding reasons to discount it ignoring all the people who do in fact use those items in the ways suggested. The fact remains people do turn in all the gear in the range you mentioned for GC points, and people do desynth that very same gear, and the 110 gear you say is for glamour people do create to both use (Brd body and blm pants 110 crafter are BiS) and to give to friends who are up and coming. No amount of me cherry picking anything you said would change those simple facts when you overall argument is that this gear has no uses except for glamour. Your message is clear, as are my examples to the contrary. No amount of cherry picking a single sentence you said would change anything about my message vs yours.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Your message is clear, as are my examples to the contrary. No amount of cherry picking a single sentence you said would change anything about it.

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You're right, my message is clear. Gear should be used as gear first and foremost. That is the point you're continually ignoring just to parrot the same "BUT ITS USEFUL FOR SEALS" crap. I don't care that it's useful for Seals. The closest this gear comes to being actual gear is a place on your retainer wardrobe for future Glamour use. That is it. That is why I said it's only relevant as Glamour pieces. I honestly have no idea why you're so hung up on a piece of hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by Felis

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...naoki_yoshida/


Thread closed ???

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Yeah pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I honestly have no idea why you're so hung up on a piece of hyperbole.

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I hope this is a wonderful lesson in how hyperbole doesn't make a point stronger. It only distracts from it and fails to solidify your argument because you can't even take it serious enough to talk about it straight.

Aside from that it's because I straight disagree. Plain and simple. If it has a use. Any use. Then it's fine. Requiring it to be specifically useful "as gear" ignores a whole lot of game balance issues for the sake of a narrow view point on the issue. Making this gear useful would severely unbalance the game and doesn't work well in the tiered system in place here. The game isn't going to change this tiered approach anytime soon so any suggestions to make gear more interesting must accept that eventually the gear will become useless in terms of using it as actual gear. You're argument seems to go against the very nature of that system, and honestly that means it's dead on arrival.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Yeah pretty much.

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Indeed.

Being very careful is nice and all, but a gear treadmill is still a gear treadmill even after bells are applied. At some point the ilvl will get in the way and we'll be back where we started.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I agree SE needs to get off the gear and content treadmill it is just really horrible. That and lowman lockout content which is a cancer for any guild trying to run as more then a social.

As for gear swapping, alot of people want it back for what is allowed content to do. It was the key to keeping all content relevant for almost ever. Until SE killed off the game with Abysea. And I would bet over 50% would love content that is never negated. (NOTE THIS DOES NOT MEAN NOT GETTING ANYTHING NEW!) That is the misconception ppl have with horizontal content. We can get as much content as we get now. but none of the old stuff becomes "Vanity Only/Desynth gear".

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The progression blocking with nothing else to do once you hit endgame makes things like Free companies glorified chatrooms in the end.

All I suggest is for SE to start branching out your content instead of having one linear path of progression.

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Well said, Xatsh, Jynx.

Ultimately what many of us are asking for is More Variety of End Game Content, with Less Restrictions on a Fixed Number of Players (8 Only (no more, no less)) with Reduced Lockouts.

Look at the effort and work that Yoshi P's team did for, say, The Lost City of Amdapor. It was a completely Brand-New Dungeon (with gorgeous Textures (looking like something out of Miyazaki's Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind)), with Diabolos as a Boss (classic Final Fantasy), and wonderful Music. Too bad, they WASTED all of that effort, and turned it into a trash mob, easy dungeon, with Irrelevant Rewards.

Same for Hullbreaker Isle and Snowcloak. Brand-new Dungeons, extra work spent, The Kraken and FENRIR as usable Bosses, and? Generally worthless filled with trash mobs and generally useless rewards.

There's no reason the Combat Team couldn't have spent a little more time and made those Dungeons with famous Final Fantasy Bosses (Diabolos, Fenrir, etc.) into "End Game Level" Dungeons.

Or at least use them as a STEP in acquiring New Gear (Side Grades / Horizontal Progression, but still it's NEW Gear), with meaningful, interesting Stats.

Do we REALLY need yet another Trash-Mob Dungeon each Patch filled with worthless gear?

It's very clear it's because of the Vertical Progression Treadmill, and Yoshi P thinking we need to make a dungeon drop i50, i60, i70, i80 gear sets (so boring and useless), when instead,

The Combat Team could've used all that effort & time and spent it on a Separate, 2nd, 3rd, etc. End Game Raid / System that was more engaging to everyone.

And the ridiculous, limiting "8 Players ONLY" (not more, not less), and with a Weekly Lockout means Yoshi P is undermining the "MMO" and Community aspect to this game:

Do you have more than 7 friends or your Free Company / Linkshell has more than 8 members? Too bad. "Sorry, we already have 8 people for our Coil Static. See ya." You CAN'T HELP anyone in your Free Company or LS or Friends with the End Game Weekly Lockout (beyond the 7 other people in your static). It's an awful system. It segregates the population and isolates people.

Ultimately, we all hope for Final Fantasy XIV to improve and make it something engaging and worthy of the Final Fantasy name. It's just too limited and boring right now (with ridiculous Team Jump Rope gimmicks and lockouts that debilitate Free Companies and the Community as a whole).

The problem with 4 man dungeons is that you can't give them higher tier loot than Coil or Tome gear, because that'd be ridiculous but at the same time if you don't give them good loot but make them difficult they become even more of a tedium to run. Restricting the rate at which people gear through the lock-outs is a very conscious design decision on their part, and 4 mans just being huge trash pulls and face-roll bosses is the consequence. They've basically created a system where it's impossible for them to be relevant other than as a vehicle with which to get gear that is independent from what is actually obtained in the instance.

I hope they add more emphasis on enhancing your gear to make it stronger rather than replacing gear with more powerful stuff. Cause then the patch will drop (3.0) and we will be replacing all our endgame gear in the first expansion dungeon. and like Kallera was saying, this is going to get out of hand, quickly.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Look at the effort and work that Yoshi P's team did for, say, The Lost City of Amdapor. It was a completely Brand-New Dungeon (with gorgeous Textures (looking like something out of Miyazaki's Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind)), with Diabolos as a Boss (classic Final Fantasy), and wonderful Music. Too bad, they WASTED all of that effort, and turned it into a trash mob, easy dungeon, with Irrelevant Rewards.

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Bolding it doesn't make it true. At launch, in patch current gear, Diabolos was a pain in the rear to coordinate. Especially in DF. There were plenty of wipes even in premades. Once you outgear a fight you start ignoring mechanics and things become easy, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a challenge at one point. The drops were also relevant at the time. Again, people seem fixated on the gear being good and current for perpetuity. That gear is relevant to help get you to new content and it does that job. Just because your i112 geared character can't use it doesn't mean someone else running it isn't happy to see that drop.

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There's no reason the Combat Team couldn't have spent a little more time and made those Dungeons with famous Final Fantasy Bosses (Diabolos, Fenrir, etc.) into "End Game Level" Dungeons.

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Because giving some fan service to non-raiders is an awful sin. Got it.

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Or at least use them as a STEP in acquiring New Gear (Side Grades / Horizontal Progression, but still it's NEW Gear), with meaningful, interesting Stats.

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This is a vertical progression MMO. The current progression strategy is locked in until the end of 2.x. Once 3.0 drops, you may see more set bonus sort of things (I'd like that for sure), but even then it's likely to still be largely vertical gear progression.

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Do we REALLY need yet another Trash-Mob Dungeon each Patch filled with worthless gear?

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Gear you aren't interested in = Worthless. Got it.

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It's very clear it's because of the Vertical Progression Treadmill, and Yoshi P thinking we need to make a dungeon drop i50, i60, i70, i80 gear sets (so boring and useless), when instead,

The Combat Team could've used all that effort & time and spent it on a Separate, 2nd, 3rd, etc. End Game Raid / System that was more engaging to everyone.

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Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

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Except you will see it one day because SE goes out of their way to nerf content into the ground after 6 months for players like that

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Except you will see it one day because SE goes out of their way to nerf content into the ground after 6 months for players like that

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Maybe some, but you'll still see a goodly number of players ignoring it altogether. I'm failing to see why having a mix of 4/8/24 player content is so evil.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Maybe some, but you'll still see a goodly number of players ignoring it altogether. I'm failing to see why having a mix of 4/8/24 player content is so evil.

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Because for the people who can clear the highest level 8 content everything else becomes irrelevant. The people who are forced to wait will always have more to look forward to down the road as content is eased but for people on the cutting edge you have that one thing and everything that is released between that and the next "one thing" is going to be suboptimal or at least graded against how relevant it is compared to Coil (Look at Ramuh EX on release before the iLvl change). The difference in perspective creates an entirely different experience for different groups of players, a casual player probably doesn't care about Coil because they aren't clearing it. A raid-focused player doesn't care about anything else except Coil because everything else is inferior and unless you care about vanity there's no need to touch anything else. The only way they can fix it is by adding more options at every level, but for whatever reason anytime you suggest adding more end-game raids people say that those people should be content with their one set of Coil instances and don't deserve anything else - yet nobody has a problem with adding 3 more faceroll dungeons every major patch which are only relevant for getting tomes.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Because for the people who can clear the highest level 8 content everything else becomes irrelevant. The people who are forced to wait will always have more to look forward to down the road as content is eased but for people on the cutting edge you have that one thing and everything that is released between that and the next "one thing" is going to be suboptimal or at least graded against how relevant it is compared to Coil (Look at Ramuh EX on release before the iLvl change). The difference in perspective creates an entirely different experience for different groups of players, a casual player probably doesn't care about Coil because they aren't clearing it. A raid-focused player doesn't care about anything else except Coil because everything else is inferior and unless you care about vanity there's no need to touch anything else. The only way they can fix it is by adding more options at every level, but for whatever reason anytime you suggest adding more end-game raids people say that those people should be content with their one set of Coil instances and don't deserve anything else - yet nobody has a problem with adding 3 more faceroll dungeons every major patch which are only relevant for getting tomes.

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I get your point of view, but I'm going to stop taking you seriously if you seriously believe that last sentence. This is not a game built solely for one play style.

This isn't about "deserving" anything. Progression raiders don't add anything more to Square's bottom line than a casual or pvp-focused player does. SE tries to balance new content among it's three main bases (Story/Endgame/PVP) and it's not entirely successful, I'll grant, but it's not that it isn't trying.

You say that nobody has a problem with the dungeons being added? I'd say, judging by the posts from the folks above (your's included), that you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

No, we'd just point out that older MMOs were grindy too, and perhaps you should wipe the rose color off of your glasses.

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Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

That is called telling a lie.

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Do tell. This should be a good read.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

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You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

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EQ and WoW are literally the 2 opposite ends of the spectrum so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)


As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."


I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

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We're talking about XIV, so to say "Well, maybe not XIV...but maybe" is a bit of a cop out. Also, are you implying that EQ isn't super grindy? I just want it in writing you understand.

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The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

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Quest to gain experience until you cap level. Pretty universal even old ones.

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Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

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Daily quests are definitely the bane of WoW. Everything is gated by faction rep. Not sure if WoD changed that, but given the full embracing of it that happened in MoP, I'd doubt that it went away entirely.

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Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)

As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

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That's referring to the questing for experience bit earlier right? Your complaints are that we quest for experience and the dungeons are scripted? As for the dungeon scripting, that's hardly universal to XIV or WoW either.

The variable dungeon thing would be neat and if I'm not mistaken, Yoshi said they would consider adding more randomness to instances. I need to ask though, what does the dungeon being scripted have to do with the grind in this game? Because that sounds like a nice thing to add to a dungeon that you could then run for gear and tomestones. The having randomness in a roulette might make the instance more interesting, or more annoying depending on the nature of the randomness, but you'd still be running it for the reward.

Every game, XI/EQ included have a gear grind. It may be different, but it's there and it still sucks. You like the horizontal grind of XI? Great. No amount of random events and eye candy can change it from being a grind though.

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Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."

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I'm not doing the same routine every day in this game. If we were talking about WoW, this argument would be damning and well deserved because faction rep was king. There's a reason I left WoW and no amount of garrison candy and ogre pinatas could bring me back (I do miss that pinata though).

You dropped back to the randomness though, which doesn't have to do with the grind. Could there be more open world events? Yeah, that'd be cool. Same with dungeons. More events, I want those, but those can be in place and still have the systems we have now. The hunts, as bemoaned as they were, were a good thing in the long run. They are a step in adding random things to the open world that aren't FATES.

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I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

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Hyperbole is hyperbole.

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Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.

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You're jumping topics. Last time I checked we were talking about MMO x being less grindy than MMO y. Not bots.

Also, those bots are a side effect of more than just a scripted dungeon. They're a side effect of better automation software and better computing power. They're in your classic games too, it's just not as profitable for them there. Its the same reason virus writers and script kiddies attack windows and MacOS, that's where the bulk of users are and that's where the most gains can be made.

You're assuming the mechanics operate the same on every boss the same way every time. They don't. Try running snowcloak with a blindfold on as was suggested earlier. It will end poorly.

Those bots are designed as a brute force tool. They keep rezzing and restarting until it goes down. The same thing happened with farming bots in WoW. Head to the dungeons in Northrend and you'll see the paladin keep running at the entrance until it lets him in. Then it proceeds to go until it dies, rez at the door, and try again. This isn't a precision tool. The bot argument doesn't help your "it's the same dungeon every time" argument.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

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No one would deny that modern MMOs aren't grindy. What I will say is that modern MMOs are better at hiding the grind because they give you context and objectives for the grind instead of throwing you out there and having you kill the same mob over and over ad nauseam to get anything done.

So you're hailing something that has no context with a tendency to drive a normal person to tears as better than something that has context and an objective built in with clear labels for progression and a reward at the end that more often than not is reasonable for the time spent (Atma grinds notwithstanding). And then you say you don't have rose-colored goggles on.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Det, Crit, Acc, Skill or Spell Speed; these(for the most part) are the only stats you ever get to play around with, and after 3 Coils worth of BiS set making I've lost most of my interest.

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Ignoring the fact that gear swaps broke too many things about FFXI to count, would you rather we have extra stats that will eventually have to be removed to keep class performance balanced and because item budgets were getting too big for the amount of power the devs wanted players to have? It ain't much better.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

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Elemental resistances in WoW are not any more useful than ours. The only difference was that at one point you had classes with abilities that could enhance elemental resistances (paladins with their auras, shaman with their resistance totems), and even then that was only useful on specific bosses.

WoW at one point had: Spell Hit (accuracy), Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Expertise (decreased mob's chances of parrying and dodging your attacks), Ranged Crit, Hit Rating (AkA accuracy), and Healing Spellpower. ALL of those are gone, either blended into main stats or simply removed from the game.

Blizzard has fumbled around with additional stats before, and what they're doing with WoD is no different (I have a feeling stuff like multistrike will come back and bite them in the ass in the future).

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

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Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

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There are some people who hate raids actually. On an MMORPG Request forum, someone is asking for a WoW-Like game, but without huge raids.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Because giving some fan service to non-raiders is an awful sin. Got it.

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The game as it is... is like 98% fan service only, the 2% left is the latest "version" of a coil that isn't nerfed yet.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Gear you aren't interested in = Worthless. Got it.

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For a pure glamour purpose, anything can be interesting, it's a matter of tastes but when it come about worthing gears, right now there is none because they will all be replaced on a (very soon) later date.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

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Do you realize that you pointed out the real issue? only a few people re able to get into raids and this is the true problem! And this isn't even the fault of the players, it's the fault of the game iself for tagging every single things that matter to do with huges daily/weekly lockouts, everywhere!!! there is no uses of a free company than having food buffs and co :x because of all the lockouts this game have we re bound to play the game at a very slow progression, the whole weekly token system act like as a fake lure to force your sub going while giving you illusionary feelings of going somewhere :(
If the game had more raid contents without any kind of lock out than useless / worthless /wasted lv50 dungeon... It would boost the community more in a dynamic way, giving a true meaning of having a FC.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

This is a vertical progression MMO. The current progression strategy is locked in until the end of 2.x. Once 3.0 drops, you may see more set bonus sort of things (I'd like that for sure), but even then it's likely to still be largely vertical gear progression.

Gear you aren't interested in = Worthless. Got it.

Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

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Teryaani,

Just because it is currently a purely Vertical Progression MMO doesn't mean people can't leave feedback to the developers as to what they'd like changed. I'm glad you like the game just the way it is. For me and many in this thread, the Gear Treadmill is getting pretty awful and repetitive.

And my comment about Lost City's gear is pretty much true for all players after they reach Level 50 and start doing any activities for Tomestones (of the month) or Coil (or future End Game). Even if you skip End Game, and just turn in current Tomestones for gear it is better than the gear in any of the Trash Mob Dungeons being released. It's a fact.

I know plenty of players who don't do much End Game, but they Gather and Craft, and even they turned in their Tomestones to get the latest gear back then, which was statistically better than what Lost City dropped.

What I was referring to was that when a player reaches Level 50, they can for all intents and purposes jump straight over and through --> ALL of the "Hard Mode" and other Trash Mob Dungeons and get iLevel gear that eclipses all of that without going to End Game (just with the current Tomestone (flavor) of the month).

I'm saying for all that extra effort the Dev Team put in, they could've adjusted it to be something far more useful for Horizontal Progression or Side Grades. Yes, that involves an inherent change to his philosophy, but he's acknowledged the possibility in his last Fan Fest talk.

So, sure for the small percentage of people who just happen to be item level 60 and only wanted to follow the treadmill exactly and get i70 next, OK, Lost City was "useful" to them. But when it was released people were already gearing i90, which was then quickly eclipsed again. Now Snowcloak (brand-new dungeon) drops Antique gear which is traded in for i90. The current gear cap is i130(!).

Even my super casual friends who play sparingly can go into Syrcus Tower and gear i100 and get Sands of Time to convert their Tomestone gear to i110 with no issues. So "yes" for all intents and purposes the Trash Mob Dungeons Yoshi P releases each patch are always behind for relevant gear.

I'm not saying all dungeons have to be "end game," but he seems to be trying to "retrofit" a gear path into a game that most players don't need.

I don't think the grind is really the issue here. I think that it is the reward. Not counting any kind of roulette bonus is takes 12 full runs of a dungeon to max out poetics for the week. Once you have done that what reason does one have to run the dungeon again for the rest of the week?

Now I am not saying that SE should start throwing mounts, and huge sums of gil at players to keep them doing things like dungeons, ST, and coil, etc, however generally the goal is to keep as many people paying to play the game as possible. If players are getting burned out or bored with the number of things to keep them busy from one day or week to the next then it becomes time for the developers to add or create something new that will keep player's interest.

The goal is to make the player want to log in on a daily basis to play the game. They do need something for players to make their characters better beyond just getting the best available gear for them.

I came across this issue this patch to be honest. I've played continuously since 2.0 open beta and it hasn't been a problem until this patch, I don't really like any of the current jobs, I was kind of hoping that Ninja's release would rekindle some interest although i didn't really enjoy the mudra system so i went back to MNK. I stayed away from coil 2 and will stay away from final coil too as i have no interest in raiding and did every other content available.

Since open beta it has been somewhat like this:

Collect philosophy tomes and i55,i60 gear
Do ifrit
get i55 weapon
Do garuda,
get 2 - 3 pieces of darklight
Do titan
get relic.
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mythology to cap weekly for i90 (grind atma, mythology for animus, novus)
soldiery to cap weekly for i100
hunts for sand for i110 (grind nexus light)
poetics for i120
patch 2.45? grind something else for upgrade to i130 (super grind for next relic level)

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Ignoring the fact that gear swaps broke too many things about FFXI to count, would you rather we have extra stats that will eventually have to be removed to keep class performance balanced and because item budgets were getting too big for the amount of power the devs wanted players to have? It ain't much better.

WoW at one point had: Spell Hit (accuracy), Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Expertise (decreased mob's chances of parrying and dodging your attacks), Ranged Crit, Hit Rating (AkA accuracy), and Healing Spellpower. ALL of those are gone, either blended into main stats or simply removed from the game.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.

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Hi Duelle, Garlyle,

Good points. For sure having a bunch of extra stats that only cause imbalance or can't be properly balanced would be problematic. I don't need over complicated stats to make a game meaningful. But to your points then:

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

I think there's a balance to be had overall, and with enough Relevant & Meaningful Stats, we could have more interesting Itemization / Equipment in the game instead of such predictable and limited Gear. The *magic* and interest is taken away from the game since Day 1 of 2.0. Your entry-level Gear is the same as your End Game Gear. It's always the same. And "surprise" guess what your item level 700 Gear is going to be? The same: Always +VIT and +[Main Stat]. :rolleyes:

Boring.


2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance. :rolleyes:

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

I'd rather see more Interesting, Meangingful Stats and more interesting Gear Sets (or other forms of Customization) than the Cookie-Cutter, Gear Treadmill we have now.

I hope things change in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

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This actually leads to something that bothers me about the relic upgrade. It is the same for everyone. No matter what job you are, you do the exact same thing as everyone else. Now, I understand that this makes things from a development standpoint, extremely easy. However, it seems like that if the upgrade process was more unique to the job one was doing it for, the process itself would seem more rewarding to players. I think back to my days playing EQ and doing my epic weapon quest for my warrior. The process was specific to that class. Sure there was a little overlap at times with other classes, but primarily the quest was totally unique to that class. It kind of makes me thankful that the relic weapon line is coming to an end. I'm hoping things are different with the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

I disagree with you on the production values. The point you seem to be focusing on is the voice acting though. Voice acting was one of the banes on development side of games like SWTOR. It was expensive and time consuming to get any new content out. Is the player base really willing to wait many extra months so you can hear more of Minfilia's voice? I know that I'm not. One of this game's strengths is it's short development cycle for patches.

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Then they shouldn't continually half-ass it. Other titles that aren't AAA do full VA just fine. It isn't the obstacle you percieve it to be. F2P titles do it that release content on the same schedule. All things I already pointed out and that anyone can casually observe in a number of titles.

At any rate, no that wasn't my primary point on production value. At minimum, the game costs ~$140/yr per player and the bulk of the game's playtime is shamelessly padded. This may be par for the course in MMOs but the degree and manner to which it is padded in XIV is asinine and excessive. What we get for our money is a few new static mob move rotations to memorize, some reskins and pretty but hollow/stale backdrops, a single occasional good musical composition, and new experiments in tedium tolerance. Addtionaly, they employ RNG and lockouts of every nature known to gaming and especially tedious and repetitive grinds in excess of any game besides FFXI and legacy-style MMOs. Nothing ever changes and there is zero randomization of any kind. Games we paay less for offer much more and have more heart. There is profuction value here, but it's a skeletal look-but-don't-touch experience held together by intentionally addictive elements. It's only the framework of what we should expect from a modern AAA MMO.

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This is hardly unique to FFXIV. You can buy carries in nearly any MMO, no matter horizontal or vertical progression. You can't force players to care, and trying just makes them unsub.

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No kidding? A game is easy if you buy carries? Obviously irrelevant and not the point. The game's "hardest" content is virtually a Simon Says simulator devoid of any real personal challenge. The only difficulty that exists is completely artificial in that failure is rarely a result of a lack of gamer skill. A good player can perform their role flawlessly every single time, be God's gift to gaming in general, but it doesn't matter if even one person in the group makes even a single mistake in pretty much any coil turn pre-nerf. The fact that carries are even possible is indicative of the game's weakness in this department. It's easier for a group to clear something short a member than it is to clear with someone who makes even a single mistake. Aside from meeting DPS checks, a player who is mediocre at their job but adept at jumping through the team-jumprope hoops is more useful than the world's best gamer who hasn't memorized the rotations. How hard could it ever actually be when every boss does the exact same moves at the exact same times every single time you fight it? It's a joke.

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There are still some zones that fresh geared characters can be quickly overwhelmed by LOS pulled mobs.

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How? Unless they let themselves get petrified you can literally walk away from any open world fight as soon as it becomes evident you bit off more than you can chew. Sight mob are extremely easy to avoid thanks to narrow and short detection cones. Hearing mobs are completely avoidable by walking instead of running and have even smaller detection areas. If you fight a ranged mob you have to start walking earlier but the point stands. There is zero actual risk in any aspect of the open world.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Toxic doesn't mean "disagrees with me". This community has been one of the best ones I've been in in the MMOS I've played.

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Ironic bad attitude aside, the game, official forums, and reddits all abound with people of the mind that "holy $$%^ this community is toxic," and it's almost entirely the result of the game's content being presented in the way it is.

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight. Toxicity arises when friendly but clueless players join without having watched a video or something, usually.

- Older players grinding tomes have to deal with people wanting to watch up to 40min of CS in some cases, new players watching CS have to deal with rude veterans harping on em or kicking em.

- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.

- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

- Hunt trolls.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

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MMOs are a grind. All of them. Your complaint is that it's quick enough to not annoy people. How is that bad?

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The grind is supposed to be entertaining. XIV's grind is uninspired and lazy. It's bad because they're intentionally pushing the limits of what they know people will tolerate with the express purpose of padding subscription times. It feels like making things fun isn't even relevant to them.

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Again, voice acting is not the savior of the game. It will make things take longer to release and make it harder for new content with those characters to be made if you insist on everything being voice acted.

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Again, strawman argument and ignores the meat of the issue. VA aside, the script is still unpolished. Plot has been touched on by in-depth in posts well before you made yours. Not going to revisit it.

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No, this is a vertical progression game with a vertical progression grind. Not seeing any sign of a horizontal progression here.

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Lrn2read. "Horizontal progression style grind." The vertical grind is stetched out as much as possible. Gear is earned with almost as much grind as one would expect of gear in a horizontal progression system but it's still totally bland vertical progression disposable trash with no real options to speak of. Players pay and play more for less.

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You're complaining that the game is boring, and one of your favorite bits is autopilot fishing? Sorry, what?

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Lrn2read x2. Pretty easy to comprehend. You can literally play other games or even respond to vapid counterarguments, such is the freedom granted by fishing. It was a bit of a satirical remark, but it's true. At least fishing doesn't try to disguise the fact that it's a shameless time sink and it rewards you an item that's markedly better than anything comparable... not like DoW/DoM gameplay where everything is pretty much on par.

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Originally Posted by Avarghaladion

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight.
- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.
- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I agree SE needs to get off the gear and content treadmill it is just really horrible. That and lowman lockout content which is a cancer for any guild trying to run as more then a social.

As for gear swapping, alot of people want it back for what is allowed content to do. It was the key to keeping all content relevant for almost ever. Until SE killed off the game with Abysea. And I would bet over 50% would love content that is never negated. (NOTE THIS DOES NOT MEAN NOT GETTING ANYTHING NEW!) That is the misconception ppl have with horizontal content. We can get as much content as we get now. but none of the old stuff becomes "Vanity Only/Desynth gear".

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The progression blocking with nothing else to do once you hit endgame makes things like Free companies glorified chatrooms in the end.

Crafting and gathering are relegated to generally glamor content as progressive content is locked away behind the hardcore lockouts. All I suggest is for SE to start branching out your content instead of having one linear path of progression.

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All of you :

http://blackathlete.net/artman2/uploads/1/hitnail.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kiara

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

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You're bringing in needless hyperbole in an attempt to make a point. Secondary stats have always existed in the context of RPGs, and the key has been to balance stuff in such a way that you don't have one stat to rule them all (the way Haste did in FFXI). The other key point is making stuff not mandatory outside of what is the context of your job.

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Relevant Meaningful interesting predictable limited *magic* boring

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And so come the meaningless words. Gear is a means to an end. The end being seeing content. You claim balance can exist despite people who have seen examples to the contrary. We're telling you that drinking the cool aid with cyanide in it is a bad idea but you think it'll somehow work out if you do.

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2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance.

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

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Now you're abusing the word "irony". Since you missed the obvious point, I'll spell it out in a format that you seem to think will drive a point home:

Now imagine what balance clusterfuck we'd have if we had what you call "meaningful" "interesting" stats on top of imbalances that are a result of encounter balance and new classes being added to the game.

WAR's design clashed with what how people were approaching Coil, which is why it had to be changed. People who actually analyzed stuff could also see that in the long run WAR would have run into issues (even the tank forums here agreed that no amount of self healing could ever hope to approach the level of mitigation a PLD had at the time). That's what prompted the change. BLM's got buffed in response to how the class performed versus encounter design (because encounters with mobility elements were pimp-slapping BLMs). DRG's issues didn't really become news-worthy until magical damage attacks in Coil 3 were nearly-killing or one-shotting DRGs in top raid gear in the obvious result of crafter gear having more magical defense than ilvl110 DRG gear.

Mind you, more "interesting" stats would have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues these jobs had, as they come from job design vs encounter design. The fact that itemization is straightforward simply makes finding these issues a lot easier, and thus easier to resolve. So to spell it out again: Class design and mechanics don't have anything to do with "unique" stats, and issues/deficiencies would be notably more difficult to pinpoint and resolve if said "unique" stats were part of the equation.