Pretty much this. Ask first. Your healer could be having a crap day and not feel up to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzle
I'm trying to (slowly) learn the art of tank-fu, first with warrior (STEEEEEEEL CYYYYYCLONE!) and now with paladin. Coming from BLM which only really has two cool downs to think about (Quelling strikes and Raging strikes), it's a bit of a learning curve and even though I know my healer, I won't pull more than two packs of mobs. Not because I think she can't handle it, but because I know I can't.
Tanking habits
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11-26-2014, 01:46 AMTeryaani
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11-26-2014, 02:18 AMJanhyuaNot just healers dps as well
Just did a ran on snowcloak this afternoon guess what happen? Myself a warrior i110 2 other dps from duty finder i110 with i115 weapon a ninja and a blm, so our scholar from duty finder as well at i108 or so.... So I go ahead and did a pull.... First 3 groups of mobs I barely survive I guess healer was warming up so when ahead to pull the next group of 5 wolfs.... My hp dropped to 10% used Holgan but still die after 6 sec of 1% hp.... So from there on wards we did small pulls till the first boss, after that I know the healer strength so I did small pulls then he next thing I know the dps starts to pulls the rest of the shit I am whatever healer got aggro I had no choice so I overpower everything I survive but barely.
The next group just before the second boss there are 2 ice element and those 2 bird thingy and a giant thingy I know the dps going to aggro them all so I when head and lure them all but die there anyway but they barely survive manage to clear the pack.:mad: -
11-26-2014, 02:26 AMRinionI main a Scholar and trust me, it's not fun, it's quite stressful. Because of all of this mass pulling (and sometimes wiping because of it) I check the tanks gear so that I can see whether they're likely to try mass pulling and how hard keeping them alive would be if they did. I dread the last room of Sastash HM especially =S Thankfully though, most of these mass pulling tanks do actually slow down quite a bit after one wipe (and one apology on my part) and they tend to only pull one group of mobs at a time for the rest of the dungeon. I'll give them that much =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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11-26-2014, 02:42 AMDrako
Ya Rinion that's true. If I try pulling a couple groups and i die, I usually just stop unless the healer insists they want to try again. Some healers are inexperienced and sometimes want to try it a couple times. That last room in Sastasha HM lol, I haven't yet tried to pull the whole thing. I figured I'd wait a couple more weeks before I attempt it, unless I'm with my FC with 2x blm or blm/brd. So far I think sense the new update I've had one blm on experts, and he was doing Fire III > Fire III > Fire III etc etc. So ya that wasn't gonna happen. People here saying the tank needs to ask the group from the get go, that's not a bad idea. I use to ask, but ended up just doing a gear/job check, mainly because no one ever wanted to go slow. But there's nothing stopping the healers from saying something from the get go either. Everyone has the capacity to speak, not any one person is required to do/say anything. This is a old argument that has come up many times. The unfortunate thing is, one person may complain about SRing, while another will complain your not SRing. All tanks have experienced both situations. You try to do the right thing and ask, and people sometimes are like um pull all, while others get a sting and are like WTF are you doing dumb tank. I guess it all comes down to communication, if there was a 5 second dialogue everyone would be happy. Well.. I say that but, not really. It would be better classified as a compromise.
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11-26-2014, 08:35 AMAlukah
Just got a run in progress for Snowcloak, when I entered the map healer and tank were arguing, apparently the other DPS left due to it, tank also left shortly after the argument. I asked healer and bard what happened and tank (i110) pulled the whole room up to the door, healer couldn't keep him up even with divine seal + presence of mind and he spent ten minutes complaining and blaming the healer.
Tank was near i110, healer was i90 with zenith weapon.
Seriously people, if you see a low geared healer or DPS do not pull big, and more importantly do not blame them if you die if you're the one pulling more than the group can handle, don't be an ass. -
11-26-2014, 09:30 AMOphie-MioIt's totes cool, yo! My saying that the expert dungeons were meant to be run expertly was more a play on its own title. It was argued elsewhere in the forums that the expert dungeons would be nigh impossible if everyone came in on the lowest ilevel that it suggested. That's what I was really saying. Expert dungeons should be done by people who can handle the content and not be carried through. So one player forcing the three other members to do something is not cool in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadana
I remember that there was a time when I ran Tam-Tara HM and a bard came in that had a crag bow and barely made ilevel. I understand that he felt he could come in with that but it literally forced me as the whm to make up his dps or else wipe in the last boss over and over again.
I'm someone who definitely supports speed runs if the group wants it or slow runs when the group doesn't. The only thing I don't support is someone coming in with a low ilevel and kinda expecting to be carried.
When I go into the DF roulette, I expect either and I do either and I never complain about them. I complain about the artificial blocking of a dungeon to slow down the people who want to speedrun. I also complain about the assholes who yell at people who can't keep up. -
11-26-2014, 09:55 AMLaylaTsarra
I get to giggle when a tank pulls the entire dungeon and then dies.
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12-05-2014, 06:04 AMMercuitoBut the dungeon isn't designed to a sped through. How many times does SE need to make this clear. First in launch where you asked the tank to die at the first boss. now with blocking. When will you players get the point developers don't design dungeon to be sped through. and certainly didn't design dungeon for tanks to pull everything and then kill everything at once. . In any case SE please learn from this mistake in heaven's wardQuote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
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12-05-2014, 06:13 AMOphie-MioA dungeon is designed to be played however I deem it to be played. If my gear dictates I can speed run it, my group (literally the same three raid people I always do dungeons with) is gonna speed run it. If we can't speed run it, we're gonna go slow. You even quoted my text that literally says that I don't care which we do. If I'm not with my group, I will run it however the tank wants it to be run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
Don't make me your poster child for being a speed running asshole when I am the furthest thing from that. I have never told a tank to pull more nor have I pressured any tank to do so. As a healer, I say my hello and say "Any pulls are fine." and then do my job.
SE can determine how I do certain mechanics in a fight but forcing me to kill two mobs just to open a door and then do it again on a dumb tomestone dungeon doesn't qualify. Trash pulls in dungeons should be determined by the players how to deal with. Not artificially inflating them by adding in blocks there and there and there just to increase the amount of time you're inside it. This is NOT actual content nor will it ever be.
Literally you have chosen the wrong person to quote and argue with as my quoted text is openly calling assholes who do speedruns against the consent of the group assholes and also is willing to speed run if the tank chooses.
So seriously, Mercuito, go away. -
12-05-2014, 06:17 AMDoctorPepper
I have to agree with others in this thread who say ninja aoe is pretty good. If you have 4+ mobs to hit then the total potency of death blossom will be 400+ split between the monsters which is higher potency than all ninja abilities except for trick attack/sneak attack. Add a pre-emptive huton and start the fight with doton and kassatsu katon and you're going to be doing pretty decent aoe dps.
Not to mention the example the OP used was 2x nin which means they have the ability to goad each other as well as the added tp from invigorate. All the monsters should be dead well before you run out of TP. I've played ninja on several speed runs and have yet to run out of TP before the pack dies. If I have a DRG or MNK in the group all I have to do is toss them a goad at the start of the fight and they can spam aoe moves too so I don't see the problem.
If you want to run a dungeon at a slower pace why don't you try simply saying "Can we please pull no more than x mobs at a time?" and see where that gets you. You'll probably still meet some jerks but I find people can be quite accommodating if you're polite about your requests.
At the end of the day, people are going to play how they want to play. Just because you think that the dungeons are not designed to be speed runs doesn't mean people have to stop doing them. That is simply your opinion, if SE wants dungeons to be slower they will add mechanics that make them slower.
Dungeons get very repetitive, especially when you've completed them hundreds of times, can you really blame people for wanting to get through them a little faster? There aren't exactly a massive variety of other types of content that they can do to avoid farming dungeons for tomes. -
12-05-2014, 06:26 AMSasealSame here - same room. I'm fine with speed running and pulling as much as they want in the other rooms - which I've been able to heal through - but that last room, before the kraken.... *twitch... twitchtwitch....* I had a tank, once, that wouldn't learn that it's not a good idea till the rest of us pleaded...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinion
Nothing was said for all of the tanks I've had where they've attempted and we failed this same spot... but I can't help but feel the silent blame, though.
Just couldn't heal fast enough. It was like a train went through while I was casting.
Honestly, I think the best speed run tank practice I've seen was recently in Qarn HM. Tank pulled a shit load and then popped Hallowed ground - which would give me time to load him up on regen and cure buffing CDs. Though... I had not expected this awesomeness and popped the buffing CDs just before I anticipated him to stop and just started heal spamming unnecessarily over the hallowed ground buff x_X .... since this was the first time I'd seen this tactic actually employed. I literally did not know what to do with that tactic. o_O In hindsight, I wish I had time to analyze the change in speed run behavior and readjust my habit of popping the CDs asap - and give myself further lengthened time to use those CDs (Presence/Divine).
Luckily, it still gave time for DPS to go at it before I needed to start spamming, and still had a bit of my CDs up.
I'm only used to the usual, 'Drag ALL the things! Pop a def buff CD (rampart, etc). Let the healer deal with it. We died? blasphemy!"
Now that's a speed run management habit I could <3 and will be emulating this on my own pali (when I get to that point...). You done make this WHM happy, mister tank.
I would speed run with this tank - and similarly acting tanks - any day.
Commendation x 5mil -
12-05-2014, 06:34 AMOphie-MioThis is what my raid tank does for EVERY huge pull that MAY present a problem. He does this especially for the last Sastasha HM pull. He pulls EVERYTHING and Hallowed grounds and if I'm healer, I can get ready for the pain without the panic while the two DPS (BLM) just break open a can of Flare-whoopass. Even when I'm on DPS and I get to do the Flareganza, we're all having a blast. There's something sickly satisfying about watching ALL those mobs just drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saseal
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12-05-2014, 06:45 AMSaseal*_* So lucky...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
more SR/big pull tanks need to do this... -
12-05-2014, 07:17 AMTouchandFeel
That is a good habit to practice for large pulls. For large speedrun pulls I tend to pop my cool downs in descending order of mitigation.
This is the order I typically use.
1) Hallowed Ground
2) Sentinel+Convalescence
3) Bulwark+Awareness+Foresight
4) Rampart+Fight or Flight+Bloodbath
I do this so I could potentially save #4 for the next pull if we can kill the mobs fast enough.
However you might instead want to bring FoF and BB in earlier to maximize its effect with Circle of Scorn ( more mobs being hit resulting in more HP regained).
In this case you may want to do something likethe following.
1) Hallowed Ground
2) Convalescence+Fight or Flight+Bloodbath+Bulwark
3) Sentinel+Awareness
4) Rampart+Foresight -
12-05-2014, 07:25 AMTeryaaniLucky. <jealous>Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
Normally I'm DFing this along with a healer and inevitably I've got aggro....with quelling strikes on. In the few cases where I'm running with my favorite tank, I get the joy of dropping three flares. -
12-05-2014, 08:03 AMMercuito1. telling me to go away. incase you haven't noticed your in my threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
2. you contradict yourself so much. you say the devs are forcing you to play a certain way then say the dungeon is "designed to be played however I deem it to be played".
I mean seriously. Let me explain there are some games that are open world and some that are not. trust me I do not blame you for playing the way you do. but to say it's designed to be played that way when even you say the devs are trying to stop you playing that way is just.. -
12-05-2014, 08:36 AMOphie-Mio1. You pointed to a crowd of people and singled me out for no reason. I am literally for playing any which want you want. Slow or fast, it's up to the player. Why you aren't against that, I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
2. I am not contradicting myself. And I said that the dungeons SHOULD be designed to be played the way I as the player deem it to be played.
Taking Snowcloak for example, the devs are forcing me to stop to kill a certain set of wolves just to spawn a bear that I also have to kill so that it can drop the key to the door. This is an artificial block. It should be up to the players to determine whether they need to stop at the wolves or just take everything to the bear and aoe it down. The devs are forcing you to play a certain way in the dungeon but my abilities should be what determines how I approach a dungeon.
Also, no one has any idea how the SE devs design dungeons. There are still speed pull options in the newer dungeons so if they aren't designing dungeons to allow the pulls, then why are they allowing so many mobs to be in a row? Even at their Fanfest they were doing speed run challenges.
I am telling you that SE needs to design dungeons that allow for player freedom in how they tackle it. If they go through it and see that the mobs hit like trucks, then we will slow down for that part. If people with better gear can handle that same pull and pull even more, let them have that. Whatever makes it enjoyable for them.
The abuse that comes from players being assholes to each other is something unrelated to the dungeons. It's the players being assholes to each other and thinking that it's cool to impose their style on someone else. -
12-05-2014, 08:42 AMAshkendorThis to me is kind of a 'well duh'... every Paladin should utilize HG for big pulls like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saseal
I used to use it for the first pull in Brayflox HM, and always use it for that last one in Satasha. -
12-05-2014, 09:08 AMSteady
I just make a habit of saying, during the cutscene for Ex Roulette - Hey guys, lemme know if you got any questions, I'm gonna be pulling 2x2.
2 groups at a time should be plenty good enough for most groups. -
12-05-2014, 09:24 AMMercuito1. I'm sorry you feel picked on it was not my intentionQuote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
2. in one sentence you say snowcloak forces you play a certain way by killing wolves. then say no one knows what the devs want.
some games allow you to tackle objectives anyway you want. some don't. if you don't like the games that don't. stop playing them.
There are games that have mobs in a row this doesn't mean mass pull them. infact mobs in a row usually means pull carefully. The fact that so much mass pulling goes on is probably an over sight with ilvl from the devs. Example when the game first launch why was it possible for the tank to run to the boss in ampador keep and kill himself allowing the group to skip the trash. Are you going to say this is intended even though they have done everything in reason to correct this.
And more to the point this said tatic and mass pulling isn't the way the player wants to play.it's just apparent easiest no brains way to do the dungeon. -
12-05-2014, 10:08 AMOphie-Mio1. Considering that there are others in this thread who are more like, "Lolnoob get over it" I still have no idea why you decided I was the one that deserved your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
2. Yes, the devs are forcing you to play a certain way. I bring up the wolves because it's an artifical means to making the dungeon longer to create an idea that the dungeon itself is more "involved." It isn't more involving, it's annoying.
Additionally, I said that no one knows what the devs were thinking of in response to your designation that the devs did not create ANY DUNGEON in this game to have speed running. I was merely pointing out that no one truly knows what they have in mind when they design the dungeons.
It technically means whatever I as the player think it means. When I pull on my low level tank, I pull the first group and then when I see that we can handle them just fine, I pull the second immediately. If a tank sees two BLM and a healer who are capable and asks, "Big pulls fine?" and gets a yes, then the mobs are to be pulled. Likewise, if they say no, don't be a douche. Pull smaller groups. Dungeons should have freedom and choices. Snowcloak and Qarn HM feel like scripted nightmares. Pull three mobs. Stop. Pull two mobs. Stop. Zone. Pull three more mobs. Stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
If that's your cup of tea, awesome. All the more power to you. If my group decides that we can mow all those mobs in one pull, let us do it.
I have no idea if it is or not. I know that if your group can handle more mobs and one set is five feet away, you're gonna try to save time and go for them. Then, that group just becomes another and another and you get your mass pulls that are so commonplace it's hilarious to think that people like you are demanding that I take dungeons practically one mob at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
This is not the same as speed pulling. Speed pulling has the DD kill everything. This IS the true oversight of the devs where the group could go beyond the tank and be safe while he died off in a corner and then could be raised. Trash skipped. This is the oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
This is your opinion. For my tank, doing it one group at a time literally is so easy for him he just tabs out. Speed pulling forces him to expertly go through cooldowns and manage hate to keep things off us. Speed pulls are how he wants to play as it actually becomes fun for him. As a BLM, three mobs taking a Flare isn't as awesome as seeing 10-15 take it. How people want to play is completely up to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
Speed pulls are by no means easier for everyone in the dungeon. Just for healer and tank alone, it's the hardest course. -
12-05-2014, 10:28 AMCyrus-Wallace
Stated a lot of times here: Communication is key. Ask your party before doing it. As a tank, I love to gather all the monsters. As a healer, I love to heal through all that damage. As a DPS, I enjoy to nuke all the thingies. I love speedruns, it pushes my jobs to the "limit", in a content that was not designed for that... and you get some practice.
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12-05-2014, 10:46 AMSasealUnfortunately, of all the pugged SR parties I've been in since the game's launch, this tank - about a week or so ago - was the first I've seen do this. :|Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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12-05-2014, 11:09 AMPibz
The only problem is that they keep releasing undertuned and/or faceroll dungeons.
People either don't want to spend more time there than they really need or they find it boring to pull small groups(let's face it, there's not much difference between fighting 3 dungeons trash mob groups and hitting the strike dummies) and that's why they speedrun.
Make dungeons challenging/interesting and you'll see a much bigger decline in speedrunning vs putting up forced stop with doors or making mobs hit a bit higher. -
12-05-2014, 12:17 PMChiramu
Tanks are now in the habit of not marking. This is probably the most irritating thing as a DPS to encounter imo.
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12-05-2014, 01:05 PMEllatrixTanks that mark normal mobs are bad, so this is a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
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12-05-2014, 01:17 PMHakuroDK
As a tank myself, all of this tank hate kinda hurts. I do my honest best to make sure the party goes at a suitable pace, but everyone's idea of a suitable pace is different. Some folks prefer to go at a slower pace and others prefer to go much faster. I have been yelled at by DPS and healers alike for NOT mass-pulling. I have been yelled at by a holy-spamming WHM for not having good survivability. I've been yelled at by enough people for trying to adopt to a playstyle that is not theirs that I've had just about enough of the tank hate.
Do you know? If you roll a tank, your DF times will be cut down 10-fold? If you roll a tank, YOU can control how fast the party goes? It's downright insulting and hypocritical to crap all over tanks when those crapping over tanks aren't even willing to play that role.
You want to know my habits? If I see two DPS jobs that specialize in single-target damage (MNK, DRG, SMN, etc.), I think to myself "There is no way AoEs are happening here" and I slow the party down. If I see two DPS jobs that specialize in multi-target damage (BLM, BRD, etc.), I think to myself "They should be able to handle it" and I test the waters with a single pull first. If they can handle it, I double-pull. If they can handle it, I continue to go at that pace. If they can't, I scale back.
I don't mark targets for two reasons. First and foremost, a DPS should be focusing fire on the add with the lowest HP. If that isn't clear, attack what the tank is attacking. Second, any tank worth their salt can manage enmity on several adds at once. I don't have time to be marking adds when I get saddled with trigger-happy DPS who are more than happy to pull before I'm ready, which makes my job five times more difficult than it already is because I have to then yank enmity from that DPS, yank enmity from every other add attacking other players besides myself due to proximity, pull enmity off a running healer because they hit Medica II after the pull but before I got enmity generated properly... seriously. When I tank in some parties, I feel like a babysitter.
If I see a healer having a difficult time healing me for ANY reason, I don't give that healer gruff. Instead, I pop damage reduction cooldown abilities that I would normally save for a boss and play defensively.
Whenever I enter a dungeon, I am always polite, greeting the rest of the party and corroborating with any fellow tanks over who should be main tank and who should be off-tank. After that, if necessary, we talk strategy before the pull to ensure everyone is on the same page.
Whenever a dungeon ends, I give a commendation to whomever did the best job in the dungeon, congratulate everyone in the party for a good run, wait for the loot rolls to end, use the /goodbye emote, and leave. If there were any particularly amazing players, I may even friend them.
I get that you're talking about tanks that are not me, but to be perfectly frank, you're generalizing every tank with your frustrations and criticisms while you yourself are not a tank. And that is incredibly rude. -
12-05-2014, 03:57 PMKaedrianLiang
I do pulls based on the health of each party member and class.
For example,
I see that the healer has less than 4k health this tells me they are generally about i80. So i take the first pull slow to see if they can handle it. If i feel they can handle more i pull more. As individual skill and experience greatly outweighs ilvl in most scenarios.
Same check on the dps.
Again though ive seen people with 3-4 i120 armor pieces while only having an i80 or i90 weapon slot.
I've seen i100 healers perform better than i110+ healers. etc. -
12-05-2014, 04:08 PMCoatlEh. Mages don't even care for marks. BLMs will AOE and SMNs will bane so it makes no difference to them. I don't play melee aside from bard but from what people tell me two melee dps would overall burn trash better if they each hit different enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
If dps are being stupid with aggro just let them have it though.
I would mark if I was a new and an undergeared tank cuz there's no way you're going to hold aggro if dps aren't meeting you half-way. When you overgear the dungeon 30 item levels then you can brute strength it yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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12-05-2014, 04:10 PMCoatl
oops double post
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12-05-2014, 04:14 PMLudvicStone
didnt know it was super hard to attack the same target as tank or just press T, 2 times
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12-05-2014, 04:22 PMSarcasmMisserAttack whatever you want to attack, if they are not bad they will watch this and be able to hold all enmity. All tanks need is a little awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
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12-05-2014, 06:29 PMCanadane
I've skimmed this topic a bit and I'll throw my thoughts as someone who mains a tank class.
I've since given up on marking mobs. The reasoning, when I sat back and throught about it, makes a lot of sense. I've got two main thoughts. One more directed at DPS reading this, and another, about myself, which can be taken in by other tanks, hopefully. Maybe.
Target #1 will almost always be the one I throw a tomahawk/shield at first. There's quite little reason to bother marking #1 at any time during most pulls. It's quite visually obvious as to which mob is engaged as their name colour will change (assuming you didn't modify your colours to all be the same), it'll be the first to get to me, and be the one with damage.
Targets 2-5 and beyond won't make much a difference. In almost all scenarios I will have established sufficient enmity on the entire pull by the time target 1 has died. Meaning the kill order is completely unimportant now. Unless you are actively trying to steal hate on a specific mob, I'm not going to lose it. And I'm rotating through mobs often enough to check on enmity levels that I usually don't let tryhards to take mobs regardless.
Which brings me to my next point. If you're targeting what I'm targeting and thinking I'm focusing on that without me marking it stating so, you'd be incorrect. While using a <tt> macro or manually doing it isn't bad in itself, you shouldn't be overly reliant on it thinking you'll always have the right one everyone else is killing. However, that is completely moot because you can all split up and kill different things for all that I care after the first one is dead. I'm just sort of putting the message out there since others were talking about it.
However I know that not all dps are the same, and not all players play the same. A lot of awareness is needed by me. Yes I main a tank. Yes I outgear most non-final coil content. But the majority of people won't.
I'm aware enough to know to change how I hold enmity depending on my dps. If I have a BLMx2 or maybe a Bard thrown in there, I'm going to expect AOEs and a lot of them. I'll pull more.
If I've got a couple of melee dps I know to take more care in holding mobs still for positionals, making my dodging less dramatic. I'll probably pull less at once as well.
If my healer isn't decked out and armed to the teeth I'm going to pull cautiously until I can better gauge their skill. But if they're as geared as I am if not better, then I'm going full ham on it. Because even if the dps can't take out huge mob pulls, I know that the healer will kill me living through it which results in no issues.
However, please note that not all tanks will be people who main that class. The joy of this game is that you can be anything and play as any role. So if someone is undergeared compared to the dps, going in slow and marking each pull isn't going to be a bad thing. It may be the only way to quickly coordinate pulls enough to have a smooth run. But don't expect tanks that are equally geared to yourself to bother with it.
You may see this post and be like "well yeah this makes sense" or you may not agree at all! Regardless, you should absolutely take into account your companions in your party before deciding on how to play. If it's going to take an extra 10 minutes of your life to get through a dungeon it's not a large time lost.
So really, what I'm saying is, if you don't like what your tank is doing, just say something. You might get a nasty reply back telling you not to tell a tank how to tank. That's something I do consider a valid response as that person is the tank right now and you're not. However if it's someone like myself, I'll most likely adhere to your desires for less/more and try to have a good time in the process. I'm probably never going to see you again, so I may as well make our time in duty finder together enjoyable. All you gotta do is speak up! :) -
12-05-2014, 09:35 PMWizhardThis. These days i only mark targets when a certain mob or add needs to die fast(bees etc). Everything else i can hold threat on and even if dps takes the aggro i can take it back without any problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser
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12-05-2014, 10:04 PMMercuitoI did reply to those who were like lolnoob learn to play but I choose you cos you had a glourious myriad of contradictions in your post. I will just say this. I have played tank and watched tanks play. the only thing complex about tanking multiple mobs is that you spam your one aoe aggro mob and pop defensive cooldowns. it's not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
Also you seem to just be beyond understanding even yourself. like I said in one swoop you say the devs are trying to stop you in another you say the devs wanted you to play the way you want. it's sad really. Also in multiple mobs in a row unless mobs are useless it usually means pull carefully. In any case I actually thought you had something crediable to say but it seems you like to grasp at straws so take care and please get off my thread -
12-05-2014, 10:10 PMAegis
On literally every job except MNK I prefer the tank to pull as large a group as the healer can sustain (they don't have to heal for long, usually).
On small pulls, a healer can more or less fall asleep, the tank is never in any real danger. Both the tank and healer are underperforming in relation to their potential.
On DD jobs, on any pull of more than 4 mobs, it is faster to AOE them down (I think the number is something like 5 for MNKs, correct me if I'm wrong).
Obviously this is only something you can do if everyone's i-level is up to it (about 10 over minimum required ilevel for access) and you don't have 2 MNKs in party. BRD, DRG, NIN, BLM, SMN (to an extent), WHM, WAR all perform better on mulyiple targets.
I find it both faster and more fun. -
12-05-2014, 10:43 PMBixbyRockbreaker (at the end of a normal chain) is better with anything 3+. Spammed with PB, it's better with anything 2+ until PB runs out. It's also better than Snap Punch at 2+, so if you've got 2 adds, Demo 1, Demo 2, RB, repeat is the highest damage finisher rotation. AotD's potency is equivalent to the other openers at 3+, but you miss out on the auto-crit or the DK debuff, so between that and the TP cost, I usually save AotD for 4+ (if they're squishy enough to die relatively quickly) or 5+ (if they're not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
That's just the raw damage perspective, though. I prefer one huge pull even on MNK just because it means less to consider. With multiple pulls, I have to decide how long I'm going to AOE so I don't run dry too soon. One really fast pull, one medium pull, and one slow pull is lame. With one huge pull, I just AOE my fists off, and even when I run dry, it's still faster than it would have been otherwise (partly because, chances are, the other DPS has not run dry). -
12-05-2014, 10:50 PMLeigaon
People most of the time pull large groups, usually the party can handle it but on some occasions they can't. Not every tank asks for large pulls, or adjusts to the party settings..a lot just pull everything and think it will go as fast as it did in their last party. This usually causes mass death. Some people say they always ask or always check, but that's not the majority unfortunately.
In all fairness it's not just tanks..for every bad tank habit I could think up a healer or dps one. What do you all think it is that's causing some of these issues in general? People taking FATES to 50 and not going through the dungeons to properly learn how to handle things as they go up? Or people who have been 50 way too long and expect perfection from everyone and not considering that others may just be a bit new or not have max gear to destroy everything?
To the OP's final line talking about the whole AoE / Rinse / Repeat..maybe a mid-point would be good. A mini-boss sort of that has a few adds on it. Sort of like in the new dungeons though there's not many. Snake ladies with their orbs and adds / the..golden..thing in Quarn that has the hands that pop? Maybe these are in right directions? Or if I'm missing the point I'm sorry. -
12-05-2014, 11:45 PMBucyMe too. If the party can handle it in my estimation, I'd rather just do a big pull in a dungeon I've done 100 times. The sooner I'm done with my dailies, the sooner I can farm coils for gear I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoki
I've given up on marking targets as well. I only mark if people seem remedial. DPS need to know the fight like tanks do. I'm not paid enough to play to hold people's hands. -
12-05-2014, 11:56 PMEhayteMy AE rot on WAR is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
Gather, Use Bloodbath while gathering > Internal Release > Overpower > Infuriate > Overpower > Berserk > Steel Cyclone > Vengence > Overpower > Wrath Building > SC
It only gets better if you can go in Unchained or Infuriated for an extra SC.
My AE rot on PLD WITHOUT a WHM:
Gather, Use Flight or Flight while gathering > Flash > Rampart > Flash > CoS > Flash > SW > Flash > Shield Bash mob 1 > Shield Bash mob 2 > Shield Bash mob 3 > Flash > Sentinel > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Circle of Scorn > Shield Bash mob 4 > Shield Bash mob 5 > SW > Shield Bash mob 6 > Flash > Flash
If you are a shitty tank you just spam OP or Flash. If you aren't, you do little things that make mass pulls safer or faster.