Men in Dresses

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

No, one 'side' is who someone is. The other 'side' is someone's opinion. This is why the opinion that 'men in dresses' (a transphobic description of a transwoman, by the way) is wrong carries less weight than the desire of someone who is a transwoman to be allowed her full dignity at all times. Including in a video game.

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Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

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Originally Posted by Merle

True. I think the issue here is the community. Maybe we shouldn't compare WoW and FFXIV because they're not the same and therefore the impact is not the same. Like we shouldn't compare them with LoL community (i'm beginning to find a lot of toxic players, tho)

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On the subject of community, pretty sure WoW has a worse community than FF does lol. LoL might have an even worse one than WoW, who knows, but it's pretty much known WoW has one of the most terrible community of players ever. (But at this point I'm derailing so Ima leave it at that)

As a Vegetarian playing this game, im forced to eat meat products to increase my offensive attributes(ex Charbroiled Steak), i think there some inequality here, why are they forcing such things. I would like to eat vegetable dishes that give the same stats.

Why is it the norm that meat is always used for "offensive Properties", why cant vegetables give you offensive stats? i don't like this "norm".

Everyday im forced by the community around me to eat meat or get kick from party.

There are 2 reasons for why I believe they wouldn't do this:
1. Japan is still really awkward about nontraditional gender representation. As are a lot of people.
2. They would have to reshape all the gender restricted gear to fit the counterparts and make various event gear tradable/choosable. They may believe that wouldn't be worth the effort.

And then there's my personal opinion that most dresses do not flatter a generic masculine form. But that's really up to the wearer.

Personally, I'm all for dressing my male miqo'te in a frilly dress (it would suit him, honestly, and he's not a transwoman), but I do doubt it will happen.

In 1.0 there were a couple of early weaver recipes, one involving straw to make a straw hat that everyone could wear, and one involving a flower to be added to the hat (there was also a later one involving a dark ribbon but I don't remember if that was ever locked). The moment you added that flower, the hat previously worn by males and females equally was instantly locked to females only.

I have vague memories of seeing male roes wearing the flower hats since 2.0 release but I'm not sure if that was altered screen shots or if they actually loosened up that restriction, however the fact that that restriction was ever in place really speaks volumes about the likelihood of males wearing traditional dresses.

For now, my boy cat will have to be satisfied with vanya robes and other non-dress dresses.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

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The sad thing is that laws in almost every country doesn't keep up with current times. I mean, here where I live cyber crimes are still shady and doesn't have a proper law for it. A few years ago a popular TV star got her nude pictures taken and published on several websites, and just then they created a law against publishing those kind of pics.... Idk the specifics bout the law tho, so cant discuss about it xD.....

But what im trying to say is that law takes some time to catch up with the present. In some countries some laws are even from the last century.

PS: This is for the law part thing =P
PS2: sorry but english isnt my native language, hope u get what im saying >.<

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

On the subject of community, pretty sure WoW has a worse community than FF does lol. LoL might have an even worse one than WoW, who knows, but it's pretty much known WoW has one of the most terrible community of players ever. (But at this point I'm derailing so Ima leave it at that)

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Exactly, thats my point. WoW has a terrible community: that means more trolls, so maybe more people are willing to accept men in dresses because the "troll factor". Not sure if FFXIV is more serious-minded and thats why we're having this "i'm not sure if this is correct" debate

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Originally Posted by Xandim

The sad thing is that laws in almost every country doesn't keep up with current times. I mean, here where I live cyber crimes are still shady and doesn't have a proper law for it. A few years ago a popular TV star got her nude pictures taken and published on several websites, and just then they created a law against publishing those kind of pics.... Idk the specifics bout the law tho, so cant discuss about it xD.....

But what im trying to say is that law takes some time to catch up with the present. In some countries some laws are even from the last century.

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You are 100% correct, and it is a very good point. I will add that social norms take even longer than the laws. We also should remind ourselves there are some cultures that will /never/ agree with the western ideals of equality. I dare not name them directly, but I am sure you can make accurate assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

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Because that was one example, not an all encompassing statement. Calling someone who is a transwoman a man in a dress is indeed incredibly demeaning to them. Calling a drag queen a man in a dress is stating a fact. For a male-identified gender queer individual who presents more feminie it is less obvious, but with the term 'man in a dress' I would err on the side of caution and not use that phrase. If in doubt, just ask. As long as you are sincere in your desire to know their preferred way to be referred to, they will be more than happy to let you know.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

I never said people should go up and rub their man-in-a-dressness all over someone's face. But how are we supposed to expect people to become comfortable with it if they're never exposed to it because it "makes them uncomfortable"? There are ways to still be a man in a dress and be around people who are uncomfortable with this fact, without being overbearing about it. This argument is like saying "I shouldn't be openly gay in public because it makes people uncomfortable to see it". How is that any more fair to those people than to the people uncomfortable with seeing it?

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There isn't a "fair" answer in today's world. People just aren't that accepting, and probably won't be for another generation. Racism didn't just disappear. It still hasn't disappeared.Our goal shouldn't be to "conquer" the mindset, but to integrate. The key to that is playing our similarities, not our extremes. Men in dresses, while popular among my friends, is kind of extreme.

As I already said, unless someone wants to volunteer themselves to disagree, I don't know any MTF that wouldn't play a female character (or any FTM that wouldn't roll a male, for that matter). As easy as it is to say this is an argument for trans-awareness, I don't buy it. [Also, see below.]

Back on-topic: I doubt it'll make it in-game. SE's underlying goal is to make money. Though I actually think that the vast majority of XIV fans would be okay with dresses on men (How many of us aren't fairly liberal anyway? This isn't a FPS...), there's a vocal minority that would quit if it was officially "supported," along with bad press in more conservative markets. That loss would be larger than the minority that might quit if it's not. Anyone whose subscription is contingent on cross-dressing is probably outside of the typical target market of an MMO, sadly.

I said this more subtly earlier, but if people hadn't ask for it, it wouldn't have been a big deal. It would have been a minor "WTF" to some, and then been over. But, if SE answers this thread now that it's turned into this big gay-trans-rights cluster, they're going to lose a few customers either way. So they'll probably pretend this thread didn't happen.

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Originally Posted by mbncd

Actually, there are plenty of guys who see themselves as guys and identify more with their male persona but at the same time prefer to wear female clothes and make up.

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While I'm sure that GQ individuals exist that fit this description, I can't say that I've ever met a male-dominant personality who was so intent on wearing effeminate clothing that they wouldn't either play a female, or just ignore it. I don't know anyone that wouldn't play a game that didn't support it. At the very least, we have robes that support a more "high-fashion" model if you're really going down that road.

Please, let me just say that I wouldn't wear anything that my XIV character wears. Well, okay. Maybe a fewwww things. ;) But to expect your in-game wardrobe to so closely match a modern, real-life one is a bit far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

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It's only cause people use some terms too lightly without fully understanding them, or not being clear about what they're saying.

When they say "trans" they could refer to transgender, transsexual, transvestite.... but there's no way of telling which they're actually talking about, cause we can't read their minds, and whether they're even using the correct term for what they're talking about. That's what's causing the confusion, most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

You are 100% correct, and it is a very good point. I will add that social norms take even longer than the laws. We also should remind ourselves there are some cultures that will /never/ agree with the western ideals of equality. I dare not name them directly, but I am sure you can make accurate assumptions.

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Also, another country agreeing or disagreeing from their perspective does not make them wrong either.

http://thebaochi.files.wordpress.com...toon.jpg?w=640

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Originally Posted by Merle

Exactly, thats my point. WoW has a terrible community: that means more trolls, so maybe more people are willing to accept men in dresses because the "troll factor". Not sure if FFXIV is more serious-minded and thats why we're having this "i'm not sure if this is correct" debate

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If a community is more serious, this shouldn't even be an issue. Seriously bigoted might be a better term.

I find it sad that it's more accepted in a horribly trollish community like WoW for male characters to wear dresses than in a slightly decent (if venomous) community like ARR.

Honestly, I know I'll be flamed for this, but the LGBT community is way too sensitive nowadays. I mean, you're a man wearing a dress, and yet people are homophobic if they say that you're a "man in a dress"? Not everything is said with ill intent, you know? I have zero issues with equality, homosexuality, transgender, etc, but I do believe that the LGBT community have kind of gone off the deep end wanting to insert as much LGBT beliefs into everything. And worse yet, they throw around hurtful names and accusations at anyone who disagrees with their views. Does a very religious person not have the right to say they disagree with your beliefs, the same as you have the right to disagree with theirs? Personally, I'm an atheist, which like homosexuality, isn't a popular view point, but I don't feel the need to bash every person that insists that there's a god and that people like me are going to hell. Nor do I soap box on message boards trying to force the developers of games to include an option to be atheist in their games. I believe what I believe and that's good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Also, another country agreeing or disagreeing from their perspective does not make them wrong either.

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This thread is finally getting somewhere. There may yet be hope!

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Originally Posted by Mychael

There isn't a "fair" answer in today's world. People just aren't that accepting, and probably won't be for another generation. Racism didn't just disappear. It still hasn't disappeared.Our goal shouldn't be to "conquer" the mindset, but to integrate. The key to that is playing our similarities, not our extremes. Men in dresses, while popular among my friends, is kind of extreme.

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A man in a dress shouldn't even be considered extreme. There is nothing wrong with it, and it's only super distracting if the dress itself is made to be "loud" and flamboyant (which women wear dresses like that all the time, so I still don't see the problem with it). That's the problem, how can transwomen, or even just men who like to wear dresses, integrate when people say it's "extreme" to do this? How can they integrate when the very act of doing so is considered "too extreme" for society? The only way people are going to get over their internalized bigotry towards things like this are if people do it more often. The more often transwomen and men who like dresses actually go out and wear dresses in public, the more it'll be seen as just normal stuff that you'd see every day, just like women wearing pants.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

A man in a dress shouldn't even be considered extreme. There is nothing wrong with it, and it's only super distracting if the dress itself is made to be "loud" and flamboyant (which women wear dresses like that all the time, so I still don't see the problem with it).That's the problem, how can transwomen, or even just men who like to wear dresses, integrate when people say it's "extreme" to do this? How can they integrate when the very act of doing so is considered "too extreme" for society? The only way people are going to get over their internalized bigotry towards things like this are if people do it more often. The more often transwomen and men who like dresses actually go out and wear dresses in public, the more it'll be seen as just normal stuff that you'd see every day, just like women wearing pants.

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If a woman/man is so much more comfortable with the "other" persona, they would be that much more comfortable simply selecting that gender in the game. There is no restriction that your character's gender MUST match your phenotype. Again, it's not a question of should or should not, it's a matter of is and is not. In today's society, it is not widely acceptable to be a man in a dress.

Frankly, with many of the transgender individuals I know, average people would not know they were anything but what they appeared, and they like it that way--the equivalent of simply rolling another gender for your character. Being a man in the dress is most generally trying to exhibit uniqueness, fashion, or have fun. That said, there are cases of genderqueer individuals who, like mbncd brought up earlier, are more comfortable with their male persona, but prefer feminine clothing. And to repeat myself, I don't think many of those borderline personas are so rigid that they could not adapt to either playing a female character, or playing a male character. After all, a customizable video game character is not often a representation of ourselves, so much as what we want ourselves to be.*

*I say that, but PLEASE don't look at my character name... *cough*

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

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Idk if im an atheist, but I dont believe in God but some other stuff I could believe someday... So im a pseudo atheist? =P But imo, its not that the LGBT community is too sensitive about something, and its not a 'gay agenda' (even tho some ppl DO believe that we have one '-') but seeing as that homossexuality is still something most people dont 'talk about' or even aknowledge it exists (most ppl still think you 'chose' to be gay), it would be nice for us to see us represented in what we like to do (in this case games). Way back, it was rare to see black people or even woman leading roles in games. Hell, woman still are seen as 'support' type (WHM was always a female in past FF) and even the person who rebooted Tomb Raider said that its still hard to make a female leading role popular. But today we have more females leaders (Lightning and Serah, albeit FF13 seems like a taboo =P), Tomb Raider, etc so it CAN change. I think I kinda missed my point by now, =P

But what I wanna say is it's cool to see us represented (whether you are gay, bi, tri, genderless, or any other alfabet letter =P) in what we like to do. Besides, how more manly can a man be by wearing a dress and still rocking on it w/o affecting his 'sexual security'? =P

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Originally Posted by Mychael

If a woman/man is so much more comfortable with the "other" persona, they would be that much more comfortable simply selecting that gender in the game. There is no restriction that your character's gender MUST match your phenotype. Again, it's not a question of should or should not, it's a matter of is and is not. In today's society, it is not widely acceptable to be a man in a dress.

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The entire thing boils down to "why shouldn't they let it be available?" All gear in the game looks the same on both genders, outside of seasonal and event costumes (and even then, a lot of seasonal costumes are the same for male and female), so why not just allow dresses to be done the same way? They've already established a pattern of gear looking the same or almost exactly the same on both genders, why not continue it?

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

That is still opinion and personal belief. You can paint it however you want, its still two sides clashing. One person will be uncomfortable with the others presence, the other is uncomfortable because they have to compromise what/who they are.

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There is a significant difference between compromising one's opinion about someone's identity and compromising one's identity itself. Those are not equal.

I don't know how to process a discriminatory sign, however legal it may be in it's location, being used to support tolerating discrimination. You're basically saying discrimination exists, therefore it should simply be tolerated because it's someone's opinion. There is such a disconnect of logic there I don't know how to even approach a discussion. I'll just posit that just because a certain discrimination is culturally accepted, doesn't mean that it should be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

The entire thing boils down to "why shouldn't they let it be available?" All gear in the game looks the same on both genders, outside of seasonal and event costumes (and even then, a lot of seasonal costumes are the same for male and female), so why not just allow dresses to be done the same way? They've already established a pattern of gear looking the same or almost exactly the same on both genders, why not continue it?

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Hopefully, it will be available. But as this thread demonstrates, I don't know if the majority is ready for it. And like I said, now that this has become a big self-identification debate, I doubt SE will take a stand.

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Originally Posted by mbncd

I have vague memories of seeing male roes wearing the flower hats since 2.0 release but I'm not sure if that was altered screen shots or if they actually loosened up that restriction, however the fact that that restriction was ever in place really speaks volumes about the likelihood of males wearing traditional dresses.

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Everyone can wear stablemaid's hat at lvl 12+.

I'll just leave this here (I'm a big fan of Nique's art, if you can't tell):

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Originally Posted by Niqote

http://i.imgur.com/jjkYyda.jpg

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Originally Posted by Xandim

Hell, woman still are seen as 'support' type (WHM was always a female in past FF) and even the person who rebooted Tomb Raider said that its still hard to make a female leading role popular. But today we have more females leaders (Lightning and Serah, albeit FF13 seems like a taboo =P), Tomb Raider, etc so it CAN change.

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I think the main reason players(both male and female) prefer a male role model is because males are better at physical roles(its in men's genetic). I dont even know many female gamers that prefer female main characters.

I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!

FFXIII imo sucked, not sure if it was the female lead(i used fang as my main character), or the linearity of the game or lack of things to do... tho i loved the combat system.

It's sad but while the people saying "NO" overweights the people saying "YES" I don't see it hapenning... Its too bad cause I'd love to wear some of the new dresses, and I don't wanna make a female char just for that (mainly beucase I don't relate anything AT ALL to a woman xD)

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Originally Posted by Synapse

I think the main reason players(both male and female) prefer a male role model is because males are better at physical roles(its in men's genetic). I dont even know many female gamers that prefer female main characters.

I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!

FFXIII imo sucked, not sure if it was the female lead(i used fang as my main character), or the linearity of the game or lack of things to do... tho i loved the combat system.

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Yup, sadly people still see man as the leading, strong, "leave everything to me" kinda person and woman are still seen as agile, supportive, "where is a man to come and rescue me?" kinda person, even tho times have changed significantly. Myself personally I like all types of leaders. Males (well cause I like men too :D) and females (specially those that dont fit the "i need rescue" kinda type, like Samus and Lara Croft).

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

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What you're not seeing is that by not tolerating and respecting someone's culture or beliefs that clash with your own, you're really no better than them. You both have a different belief structure. To them, you trying to insert homosexuality beliefs into their life is the same as them trying to take it away from you. You don't like it and neither do they. Who's right and who's wrong here? Who's beliefs win? Both groups need to simply acknowledge and respect the others and respectively agree to disagree.

Again, I'm not religious and I don't have an issue with LGBT people, but tolerance in one's beliefs goes both ways. When people try to tell me I'm wrong for not believing in god, I simply say that I respect their right to believe what they want and that they should extend me that same courtesy. You can't expect people to embrace your beliefs and at the same time call them names and insult them for their own.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

I think the main reason players(both male and female) prefer a male role model is because males are better at physical roles(its in men's genetic). I dont even know many female gamers that prefer female main characters.

I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!

FFXIII imo sucked, not sure if it was the female lead(i used fang as my main character), or the linearity of the game or lack of things to do... tho i loved the combat system.

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Commander FemShep in Mass Effect would like to have a word with you and your misogynistic statements.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Commander FemShep in Mass Effect would like to have a word with you and your misogynistic statements.

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Stating a fact about men having better physical strength is not misogynistic, its ignorant to state otherwise. Tho i hope people do abuse this word more, so it can lose its meaning and people don't even bat an eye about it when it actually happens.

What are the ratio of female lead roles to male in game?

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Stating a fact about men having better physical strength is not misogynistic, its ignorant to state otherwise. Tho i hope people do abuse this word more, so it can lose its meaning and people don't even bat an eye about it when it actually happens.

What are the ratio of female lead roles to male in game?

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I think there's about as many female leads as male.

Yshtola, Yda, Minfilia, leaders of all 3 main cities, adventurer guild leaders in 2 of the cities (wouldn't normally call them leads but they are people you interact with a LOT at the start); they're all female. Meanwhile there's one male city leader, 3 male scions and one male adventurer guild leader. The "evil" leaders sway more to the other side, with most being male, but I think that just about evens them out.

Edit: Forgot whats'ername, the little lala receptionist of the scions. Then there's also the less central leaders, like male amaljaa and female sylphs.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

What you're not seeing is that by not tolerating and respecting someone's culture or beliefs that clash with your own, you're really no better than them. You both have a different belief structure. To them, you trying to insert homosexuality beliefs into their life is the same as them trying to take it away from you. You don't like it and neither do they. Who's right and who's wrong here? Who's beliefs win? Both groups need to simply acknowledge and respect the others and respectively agree to disagree.

Again, I'm not religious and I don't have an issue with LGBT people, but tolerance in one's beliefs goes both ways. When people try to tell me I'm wrong for not believing in god, I simply say that I respect their right to believe what they want and that they should extend me that same courtesy. You can't expect people to embrace your beliefs and at the same time call them names and insult them for their own.

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What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion. People who don't like that people are gay or trans don't have to embrace it at all, but they cannot restrict it. They can certainly believe what they want to believe, but the moment that turns into action that prevents someone who is gay or trans from simply living openly as gay or trans without repercussion there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Stating a fact about men having better physical strength is not misogynistic, its ignorant to state otherwise. Tho i hope people do abuse this word more, so it can lose its meaning and people don't even bat an eye about it when it actually happens.

What are the ratio of female lead roles to male in game?

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"I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!" totally doesn't sound misogynistic at all. I'm not arguing that men have more muscle mass than women do, and thus have slightly more strength because of the way their body is made, but everything else you said was pretty misogynistic. So if you had known Samus was a female, you wouldn't have played it? JUST because the lead is female? Lol okay then, that speaks volumes.

The problem with female leads not being as abundant in gaming is because of misogynistic male gamers who still think women have no place in video games outside of sexualized eyecandy. THAT'S the problem, not that "women aren't as strong as men". If there were less misogynistic male developers and gamers in the industry, we'd see a lot more well-written female leads.

Do keep in mind that genetic and chemical disposition means diddly squat if you don't take advantage of it. Playing videogames and chatting on message boards all day won't make anyone stronger, male or female. Ya gotta get out there and work it.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion. People who don't like that people are gay or trans don't have to embrace it at all, but they cannot restrict it. They can certainly believe what they want to believe, but the moment that turns into action that prevents someone who is gay or trans from simply living openly as gay or trans without repercussion there is a problem.

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It is no one's fault for believing what they believe, even if that impairs others. While it's true that me not being able to make out in public is an injustice to me, it's similarly unjust for me to do so when there are highly conservative, religous families nearby. To them, I am making a choice to sin, and am evil. To me, they are making a choice to be bigoted and closed-minded.

The reality of the situation is, my actions are based on my knowledge (that being gay is not a choice), and theirs are based on their knowledge (that being gay IS a choice). Science may be on my side, but history is on theirs, for the moment. Someone has to question their deeply-embedded beliefs. It may be hard to understand, but some peoples' religions and beliefs are so deeply ingrained that they are probably equivalent to sexual orientation in rigidity.

There is no win-win situation here. Like I said earlier, SE will probably avoid taking sides on this issue.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

In regards to your sign image, it's a shop in Japan, they don't HAVE to serve tourists and likely don't want to due to language barriers. Amazing what a problem language can be. As for the quoted, you're right. It's not just a right, it's an inalienable right. We are ALL free to pursue our own identities in our own ways to our own ends and noone can take that away from us. People have gone to jail, or worse, for trying to infringe on this inalienable right. Now, there IS a line in how far this can be defended. If, in the pursuit of your identity, you try to PHYSICALLY involve others who do not want a part of it then you are in the wrong as you are then infringing on THEIR inalienable right. This is the ONLY time you can do anything about it. You speak of tolerance yet say, "Personal identity is not a right." Where's this tolerance you speak of, then?

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Hate to break it to you, but inalienable rights are social constructs, just like intolerance and discrimination. What you mean is people WHERE YOU ARE FROM have gone to jail, or worse, for trying. What you fail to realize is the ethnocentrism of your statement, which pretty much ruined any valid argument about an inalienable right to self-identity. Only in a few countries is it illegal to hate gay people; the American judicial system does not decide right and wrong for the whole world.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

"I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!" totally doesn't sound misogynistic at all.

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Not at all, in order for me to enjoy the main role, i need to correlate with it, i need to be in the character shoes. As a male, i do not correlate with women. I cant feel the game as i would... i only played fang over lightning in FFXIII is only because fang showed those qualities i would like(not to be confused with feminist *ugh*).

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The problem with female leads not being as abundant in gaming is because of misogynistic male gamers who still think women have no place in video games outside of sexualized eyecandy. If there were less misogynistic male developers and gamers in the industry, we'd see a lot more well-written female leads.

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Lol that excuse, sorry nope. They cater to whoever wants the game. Just like barbie is not catered to little boys. Gaming was mainly a male thing, and majority of them are still is. Women are the minority in this, but they can crime victim all they like.

The whole developer financial thing will not work if most ppl wont buy the game. Oh wait its better to assume developers are misogynistic, its better to cope like that.

If female lead roles are preferred then we will see them, there is not much demand for them, same goes for men wanting pink dress.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Women are the minority in this, but they can crime victim all they like.

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Taken from Wikipediea:

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According to a study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2012, "Forty-seven percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent)."[30][31]

Entertainment Software Association’s 2013 study found that 45% of game players are female, 2% decrease from last year’s figures.[32] However, women 18 years or older represent 31% of the game-playing population, one percent higher than last year, while boys 17 years and younger represent 19% of the game-playing population.[32] Women over 18 are one of the fastest growing demographics in the gaming industry[33] and the percentage of females in gaming has continued to grow considering only 38% of the gaming population was female in 2006.[34]

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While granted the Wiki is not necessarily a reliable source of info, I see no reason to doubt it in this case, as it certainly matches my real-life experience. 45% does still constitue a minority, but hardly an insignificant minority - certainly nothing to indicate that gaming is a "man's world".

Any catering the industry does towards men at the expense of women is a holdover from the old days and financially irresponsible - unless they are exploiting niche male markets. Throwing in hetero-male-oriented eye candy might help to sell the game, but if you don't give the ladies a treat as well, that's nearly half the gaming population you're ignoring.

In the case of Final Fantasy XIII, the biggest complaint I hear about the game has nothing to do with the female lead, but rather the repetitve, linear gameplay.

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful :)

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

Holy crap this thread has gotten nuts, 17 pages in a few hours.

Social Justic Warriors in full defence mode.

The answer really is simple.

It's technically possible, but there are other considerations to take into account.
In the end it's the developers choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none.

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It wasn't a deep thought of "Yes...yes...we're breaking the boundaries of gender identity and stereotyping here."
More likely than not it was "lol, I put the dress texture on the male models" "LOL, PUT IT IN THE FINAL BUILD".

You didn't hear an uproar because there wouldn't be one. It's not something so radical that people would be rioting in the streets.
As I've said before "Mountains out of Molehills" here, people are taking this as TOO big a thing from what people have said in this thread so far.

Not to mention reeling this out into out of context and un-related gargon. (IE, Phobias/Social-Nuances/Opinions/Stereotypes)

The only reason I can see for the developers avoiding it is because they'll simply think "Oh, but men don't wear dresses like that." and then move onto the next thing.
It really is as simple as that, not "What gender specific boundaries and limitations are we creating here by limiting players to gender specific clothing?"

I could be wrong, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise. For a very busy development team considerations like these don't seem to be a big priority.

But who knows, maybe in the future i'll get to wear a samba-dress and do cartwheels wearing a fruit-hat on Christmas Eve down the streets of Ishguard.
Only time will tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seif

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful :)

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

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As a developer these sort of things just don't come up in the planning stages often, I've never encountered it much as a huge complaint or consideration.
I think "neglecting" to add an addition so that men wear a Boudice Corset dress isn't exactly a "Bleak Mark" on the history of video games development.

Not everyone here is Bigoted just because they don't share the same opinion as you. Not every single person who disagreed in this thread did so out of malicious hatred, it's just something they'd rather not have added to this game, specifically.

NOTHING is stopping you from wearing a dress in real life, no-one is telling you "Men can't wear dresses".
What some people are saying, is that in terms of this particular video games development, it's very unlikely.

NOT that it's never going to happen, just that it's (to re-emphasise) very unlikely.

Technically it's possible, it'll just require a lot of extra work to re-mesh, re-toplogise, re-texture, re-bake, re-rig/weight and test, so if they haven't made a model for it now it'll only be in future content you'll be seeing something like this. The FFXIV development team aren't fond of going back and adjusting finalised content.

We'll find out when and if there's a response to the thread in the future.

I don't understand arguments like "Some people are uncomfortable with men in dresses so there should be no men in dresses"
I'm sure some people are uncomfortable with people in pants. Should we ban pants?
Maybe some people are uncomfortable with the colour red? Time to ban all red in FFXIV?

This is a Japanese game... One of Japan's biggest entertainment industries is "visual kei" where guys are crossdressed as Renaissance princesses. There are like 100+ gender-bending animes and mangas, many of which are/were insanely popular in japan (e.g. Ranma).

So the argument that something should be kept out of a game because a few people find it uncomfortable and weird just comes off as kind of ridiculous.
It won't affect gameplay, it's not going to scar a bunch of people for life, etc.

Saying it's unlikely is fine
Arguing that you don't think people should have MORE CHOICE in a game is just a veiled way of saying you aren't comfortable with it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I don't understand arguments like "Some people are uncomfortable with men in dresses so there should be no men in dresses"
I'm sure some people are uncomfortable with people in pants. Should we ban pants?

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No, the point being.

Pants are common across both genders.

Dresses are not.

Yet again you're missing the point of social normalties, which are going to be a huge factor in implementing something like this.

It's not about gender equality, AT ALL. It's about consistency in design decisions.




This is the biggest problem with these topics, a sensible response is given.

And people turn it into an "I'm being opressed!" "Bigots!" "Homo/Transphobics!" to get their point across, making it even more of a deal that it really needs to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

This is a Japanese game... One of Japan's biggest entertainment industries is "visual kei" where guys are crossdressed as Renaissance princesses.

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Visual Kei is a very small minority.

Really? Causes most robes look like dresses to me.

Seems the most consistent thing to do would be to make the dresses for both and be done with it.

If you don't want to wear it, fine, don't wear it. God forbid they inject more choices into this game.

Probably not gonna happen. The lighting event was gender restricted. As well as the WHM culottes.

Doubt SE will do it, unless its another vanya-esque type robe