Eorzea feels like a world with no teeth.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As I said before, FFXI's zone size is simply an illusion created by making player characters run very slow by default

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Incorrect. (Fyi they boosted movement speed.)

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And before you pass judgement, many of those zones you mentioned weren't even in FFXI from launch

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Ronfaure, LaT Plateau and every zone inbetween Nation > Jeuno was in at launch (which is what some mentioned.) The only zone not in at vanilla was Jeuno in terms of what some mentioned in this thread. The world in XI felt bigger because the overworld wasn't useless to you most of the time - When you're gliding through not caring for the world everything feels smaller.

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Originally Posted by Andrik

however, what I miss most is how some of the dungeons were intertwined with the outside zones. A few examples:

- Eldieme Necropolis and Batallia Downs, in particular the tiny island in the sea. I loved going there, even though there was little reason to.
- Quicksand Caves and Western Altepa; getting to the heart of that dungeon really felt like an adventure.
- The different entrances to Pso'Xja, each with a different level cap, each serving a completely different purpose.
- Temple of Uggalepih/Rancor Den and Yhoator Jungle; probably my favourite area of any RPG I've ever played.
- King Arthro's spawn area in Jugner Forest.
- Horutoto Ruins/Toraimarai Canal/Sarutabaruta

All these things made the world feel more complex and "alive", for want of a better word. All things that FFXIV can never replicate, as long as Yoshi insists on all dungeons being instanced.

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Yeah I'd liek to see this but also instanced dungeons like they are now too. I don''t see any reason we can't have both.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

Yeah I'd liek to see this but also instanced dungeons like they are now too. I don''t see any reason we can't have both.

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You'd think so, but he turned the open world dungeons into Instances, so it seems due to current trend of MMOs, "open world" is "arcahic" design so it's very likely his idea of "open world" dungeons is Brayflox. For example Satasha used to be the open world level 15 dungeon in 1.x with some parts of Cassopiea Hollows (the underground cavern (open world) near Bloodshore in 1.0) as well as parts of Mistbeard Cove.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Incorrect. (Fyi they boosted movement speed.)



Ronfaure, LaT Plateau and every zone inbetween Nation > Jeuno was in at launch (which is what some mentioned.) The only zone not in at vanilla was Jeuno in terms of what some mentioned in this thread. The world in XI felt bigger because the overworld wasn't useless to you most of the time - When you're gliding through not caring for the world everything feels smaller.

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I like the rose tinted glasses bro. But take in to fact that In those days there were 0 instances besides dymamis which was just a copy pasted from an existing zone with harder mobs and a boss. If they took away the movement boost and took away aether crystal tele's in every major town you would think the ARR was larger than FF11 areas and this is the illusion people speak of.

I never played 1.0 but I agree there should be horribly dangerous areas, even to people that are fully geared. It was way to damn easy to get into the beastmen strongholds to get to their aetheryte clusters for HM primals. I'm only in DL gear and I still have no fear of running straight through heavily defended areas...

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You'd think so, but he turned the open world dungeons into Instances, so it seems due to current trend of MMOs, "open world" is "arcahic" design so it's very likely his idea of "open world" dungeons is Brayflox. For example Satasha used to be the open world level 15 dungeon in 1.x with some parts of Cassopiea Hollows (the underground cavern (open world) near Bloodshore in 1.0) as well as parts of Mistbeard Cove.

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I see no problem with open world instances like Chameria and Hydra you still have to travel to the location if the instance its not like you can DF it. Also those old dungeons were empty and were only used to grind mobs or do behest or what ever you called that crap.

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Originally Posted by Fluttersnipe

I never played 1.0 but I agree there should be horribly dangerous areas, even to people that are fully geared. It was way to damn easy to get into the beastmen strongholds to get to their aetheryte clusters for HM primals. I'm only in DL gear and I still have no fear of running straight through heavily defended areas...

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So you want to have to form a 8 man group just to atune to do an instance at 50....really I think i'll pass on that. But if they made a specific zone for 50's with slightly higher mobs and lv 50 daily qst in that area that would be cool.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

FFXIV ARR: 1.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 7.4

Dark Souls: 2.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 8.3




(yes I know Dark Souls isn't technically a MMO game, but it's an online RPG game which puts it almost in the same category.)

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Uh, No...no, it really does not. At all.

Like, just....how did you even do that.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Read what he was responding to. It wasn't that DarkSouls was better to ARR or not, it was that "no one liked falling into a pit and being blow up" and that it was "bad game design". If it was such a bad game design, then that series would have failed. If anything, many people and reviewers say DS is refreshing due to it's difficulty.

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That's because Dark Souls is a gaming experience that is defined by its relentlessly punishing mechanics. But in a manner that's still different from say, Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden, which are also technically "Action" games but really have nothing in common with Dark Souls. Enough so that they really shouldn't even be in the same genre, but that's just how we categorize things.

Which is why comparing it to an RPG, let alone an MMORPG just makes zero sense.

I'd just love for there to be one or two enemies dotted around who were insanely overpowered. Enemies you would have to avoid or you'd be killed in seconds, even in your shiny Allagan gear.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

So you want to have to form a 8 man group just to atune to do an instance at 50....really I think i'll pass on that. But if they made a specific zone for 50's with slightly higher mobs and lv 50 daily qst in that area that would be cool.

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I didn't say I wanted it to be Incredibly hardcore did I? Its just nice to require a little respite between fights. There's a huge area in between stupidly easy and stupidly hard...

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Yeah...why aren't there ilevel 90 beastmen, too?

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I think they should do away with the general level of enemies and just go for ilvl enemies. I think that since we are based off the ilvl and mobs are not it gives us a distinct advantage over the regular mobs. Take lvl 40ish mobs: Do away with 50 mobs being lvl 40 and have a ilvl of 37-45, spice it up a bit. lvl 48-50 mobs with ilvl of 47-70, I think that by adding mobs of various difficulty instead of 100 of the same mobs would work in place of XI's different aggro systems.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As I said before, FFXI's zone size is simply an illusion created by making player characters run very slow by default - because you're running so slow, of course it's going to take longer to get from one side of the zone to the other, and hence artificially make it seem larger than it really is. All ARR has done is take off those blinders, and thus show a zone for what it truly is. Compare maps of say, East Sarutabaruta with the Central Shroud, both starting areas. They're pretty much the same size.

And before you pass judgement, many of those zones you mentioned weren't even in FFXI from launch - they were only added in expansions years after the game was first launched. Hence it's unfair to compare FFXI's eleven years' worth of content and related zones with ARR, a game which has barely been out for more than four months. Compare it with FFXI at launch (I mean, the Japanese original launch, not the US launch which came with the first expansion), and things would be very different.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

I like the rose tinted glasses bro. But take in to fact that In those days there were 0 instances besides dymamis which was just a copy pasted from an existing zone with harder mobs and a boss. If they took away the movement boost and took away aether crystal tele's in every major town you would think the ARR was larger than FF11 areas and this is the illusion people speak of.

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I don't really think size is the main complaint of this thread, I know one or two people have made that comment but the majority of the discussion has centred around how 'safe' Eorzea fees compared to Vana'diel or Azaroth. In regards to your comments about map size, most maps had multiple layers in XI where as most in XIV offer just a generally flat plain, baring elevation changes of the environment floor. Most maps in XI would have a surface layer that was relatively, and I emphasise the word relatively here because it depended on which zone you were in, calm but if you descended or in some cases ascended to the different layers of the map, be it climbing or sliding down the waterfalls of the Boyhada tree or dipping down into the network of caverns below Lathine plateau things quickly escalated in their danger levels.

XI's maps were larger and more complex, possibly not in their end to end distancing (although someone pointed out they had done some testing on a private server and found evidence contrary to your statments) but definately larger and more complex in their design and use of multiple levels within the same maps.

XIV 1.0 also made use of different levels within their maps although not to the extent XI did. For example the Thanalan cave system that ran under the surface layer of the map. This was another example of the surface world being relatively calm and safe, but even at the highest character level danger lurked around every twisting corner and in every cavern as you journeyed deeper into the labyrinth beneath the desert floor.

Then to all you who don't feel fear why not get on a lvl 20 or 30 and ride in the same zones? that no fear will turn to death :P

seems to me you only made this thread to brag about getting a nightmare

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Then to all you who don't feel fear why not get on a lvl 20 or 30 and ride in the same zones? that no fear will turn to death :P

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No other mmo to my knowledge requires you to keep a low level character around just so that you feel there is some danger left in the world.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

seems to me you only made this thread to brag about getting a nightmare

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There you go removed the apparently offending comment from the OP so it can no longer detract from the real point of the threads creation. Apologies if you interpreted it as such, but I'm certain if you read the ongoing posts through out the rest of the discussion you'd see that wasn't the case.

If you want danger, go play in traffic. I personally like not having to die and de-level and go all the way back to wherever it was i came from.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

No other mmo to my knowledge requires you to keep a low level character around just so that you feel there is some danger left in the world.



There you go removed the apparently offending comment from the OP so it can no longer detract from the real point of the threads creation. Apologies if you interpreted it as such, but I'm certain if you read the ongoing posts through out the rest of the discussion you'd see that wasn't the case.

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Well i was on a lvl 36 {was not 50 yet} and someone ask for a rez so i went out of my way to go to a zone that had lvl 49's and 50s and i felt the fear did not die but still:P

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Originally Posted by Gaist

If you want danger, go play in traffic. I personally like not having to die and de-level and go all the way back to wherever it was i came from.

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You're very welcome to your opinion and a world where everyone felt the same way would be completely boring. While the de-level mechanic was punishing it did give you a strong respect for death, but I don't think anyone is really asking for that mechanic to return. More so the ability to feel like we are actually facing a challenge rather than beating up preschoolers, fighting for our life would be better than having high level enemies hit your 8k hp pool for 69 damage, and being able to stand there while the entire beast camp wails on you and you just melt their faces off with your axe for easy xp / daily quest achievement.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

more so the ability to feel like we are actually facing a challenge rather than beating up preschoolers, fighting for our life would be better than having high level enemies hit your 8k hp pool for 69 damage, and being able to stand there while the entire beast camp wails on you and you just melt their faces off with your axe for easy xp / daily quest achievement.

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That's such a self-contradicting problem though. You're mad that you've gotten so strong that the beast camp that once could kill you now cant scratch you? Thats kind of the point of playing the game.


I dont know what on earth you guys are talking about, i used to be terrified of walking into the Sylph camp. Sylph Casters in bunches, high aggro range, casting Heavy on me and before I know it i have 3 sylphs shooting spells at me. God forbid i target the one who keeps healing himself before he dies.


What i really want to know is, what do you guys gain out of being able to be killed by something on the map. Are they going to give loot or something? What happens when those enemies ALSO become useless and boring?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

That's such a self-contradicting problem though. You're mad that you've gotten so strong that the beast camp that once could kill you now cant scratch you? Thats kind of the point of playing the game.


What i really want to know is, what do you guys gain out of being able to be killed by something on the map. Are they going to give loot or something? What happens when those enemies ALSO become useless and boring?

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Hopefully they'd only be useless and boring once the level cap was increased and which brought with it new zones of equally difficult areas to explore. And the point really isn't to get 'stuff' but to create a living, breathing and interesting world to 'experience' and be a part of. I mean likewise if we are really all so strong, to the point we can slaughter a whole imperial camp on our own without breaking a sweat, why haven't we ousted their evil asses from our land?

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Then to all you who don't feel fear why not get on a lvl 20 or 30 and ride in the same zones? that no fear will turn to death :P

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Oh come on really?

You have to go out of your way to get killed in the overworld. if you happen to catch agro you can take a great deal of hits even from a far superior foe and they leash at the slightist hint of you running away.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

That's such a self-contradicting problem though. You're mad that you've gotten so strong that the beast camp that once could kill you now cant scratch you? Thats kind of the point of playing the game.


I dont know what on earth you guys are talking about, i used to be terrified of walking into the Sylph camp. Sylph Casters in bunches, high aggro range, casting Heavy on me and before I know it i have 3 sylphs shooting spells at me. God forbid i target the one who keeps healing himself before he dies.
What i really want to know is, what do you guys gain out of being able to be killed by something on the map. Are they going to give loot or something? What happens when those enemies ALSO become useless and boring?

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Not to say there aren't some good ideas and valid points in this thread but as you can see some will just never be satisfied and find anything to complain about. Trust most don't want to get raped @ 50 when just traveling from point A to B.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Oh come on really?

You have to go out of your way to get killed in the overworld. if you happen to catch agro you can take a great deal of hits even from a far superior foe and they leash at the slightist hint of you running away.

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Well if your a lvl 50 your going to be strong and you know most stuff won't kill you as easy but id rather not see some lvl 50 monsters that can one or 2 shot me and it's not like ff has many zones or camps were you need to kill stuff to get a key or something so that's what dungeon runs are for are they not?

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Hopefully they'd only be useless and boring once the level cap was increased and which brought with it new zones of equally difficult areas to explore. And the point really isn't to get 'stuff' but to create a living, breathing and interesting world to 'experience' and be a part of. I mean likewise if we are really all so strong, to the point we can slaughter a whole imperial camp on our own without breaking a sweat, why haven't we ousted their evil asses from our land?

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Because they can respawn just like we do when we die.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Hopefully they'd only be useless and boring once the level cap was increased and which brought with it new zones of equally difficult areas to explore. And the point really isn't to get 'stuff' but to create a living, breathing and interesting world to 'experience' and be a part of. I mean likewise if we are really all so strong, to the point we can slaughter a whole imperial camp on our own without breaking a sweat, why haven't we ousted their evil asses from our land?

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The same reason I had a summon so powerful in FF7 that it killed Sephiroth in 2 turns and Jenova in 1. Or why Tidus whacked the final boss once and killed him. Or why the clan marks in FF12 were stronger than anything Ivalice was having problems with, and my party murdered them with no problem. It's a game, it gave you its experience from 1-50 but now that you've outgrown it you're expected to get it elsewhere.

Final Fantasy has almost always kept its battle system and story elements at an arms length distance, expecting you to be able to distinguish between the two for the sake of being a fun videogame to play. Actually? All videogames do that. So i don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

The same reason I had a summon so powerful in FF7 that it killed Sephiroth in 2 turns and Jenova in 1. Or why Tidus whacked the final boss once and killed him. Or why the clan marks in FF12 were stronger than anything Ivalice was having problems with, and my party murdered them with no problem. It's a game, it gave you its experience from 1-50 but now that you've outgrown it you're expected to get it elsewhere.

Final Fantasy has almost always kept its battle system and story elements at an arms length distance, expecting you to be able to distinguish between the two for the sake of being a fun videogame to play. Actually? All videogames do that. So i don't know what you're talking about.

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All those games you reference are single player games though, they are a finite experiences so that once you've reached max level and can trounce the strongest bosses of the game in two hits, you are done, time to start the next one.

What we are talking about here is a MMO world, something that persists even after you've cleared the strongest raid's boss. If we were to take our examples from the same medium. FFXIV, WoW, GW2, War Hammer Online, The Secret Age, all presented challenging world areas or zones even to the highest level characters.

It's not that I'm angry it doesn't exist in FFXIV, I'm more just saddened that a beautiful world goes to waste as just purely a lobby for the duty finder.

Agree with OP.
The world needs more danger around the corner,
more secrets, rare mobs, hidden places etc.
The zones are beautiful - beautiful but boring.

It's good that I'm not the only one that have this in mind!

+1 to a more immersive world.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

... besides dymamis which was just a copy pasted from an existing zone with harder mobs and a boss...

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Figures, interesting to see that pointed out and that it is certainly NOT a new paradigm here ;o/

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Originally Posted by Mishari

Agree with OP.
The world needs more danger around the corner,
more secrets, rare mobs, hidden places etc.
The zones are beautiful - beautiful but boring.

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Regarding the emboldened text, one of my enduring memories from FFXI was being able to explore and find little wonders in the zones. Whether that was the first time I was wandering in Dangruf Wadi and discovered the hidden wall that led to the old Zilart chamber or whether it was wandering through the jungle and as night fell the flowers burst into light and glowed until morning, or changes in zones depending on weather conditions such as Ifrit's Cauldron volcanic activity. There are so many things about this game that seem like a step back from the achievements they made with FFXI. Why make something worse than you've already achieved?

As OP stated, it's not a make or break for some but it really could be in a while as people get bored of standing in an instanced lobby.

How can you deny the fact that there is no real reason to get outside of town?

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Originally Posted by lolirocco

How can you deny the fact that there is no real reason to get outside of town?

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FATE grind? Collect resources? Level up another class? Beastman dailies? The fun of just running? Are those not real enough reasons to go out and do something?

I never really understood the argument that there is nothing to do outside of cities. People thought the same thing in WoW, but on my server I still saw people everywhere. Same here. I see people running around all the time.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

FATE grind? Why, when DF exp is so much better, you get to play your job rather than spam abilities, and you gain gear upgrades?

Collect resources? Crafting is so poor in this game there's little to no reason to level any of them which kind of makes gathering redundant.

Level up another class? Can be done solely with DF so zero requirement other than getting to level 15 to explore open world. That aside from the fact suggesting someone, "Just repeat the game again on another job" is a pretty poor solution to experiencing boredom on one you've already levelled.

Beastman dailies? If you're interested in a new 120k mount or a 25k minion you can only call in certain areas then sure, you can grind the same 10 quests for 30+ days in one location.

The fun of just running? That's kind of the point, it isn't fun for everyone right now. It's bland and tedious.

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Glorious purple answers.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Glorious purple answers.

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Do note, I never mentioned a "requirement" I said "reasons to go out". Isn't it a good thing that people are offered a chance at choosing how they want to spend their free time?

I mean, I won't argue the game could use more things to do, but that's more or less the fault of there only being what Coil, CT, and Primals to do at end game and this game hadn't even had it's first expansion. But I still think that shouldn't mean one should discount the options that already exist and say they don't matter because someone else is bored.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

FATE grind? Collect resources? Level up another class? Beastman dailies? The fun of just running? Are those not real enough reasons to go out and do something?.

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FATE is a terrible reason to go into the overworld LOL.

Collect Resources, most people undercut stuff to oblivion, you can buy most of what you need for very cheap. Even then the "resources" are so limited in this version..

Level up, DF, requires no leaving once you have it unlocked.

Dailies, if you like those...otherwise there's no purpose to doing them unless you want a mount, that does nothing special.

The overworld in ARR is lifeless compared to even XIV 1.x and we know the arguments about that version have "nothing but copy paste."

It does feel a lot like a lobby game. At the most you might port around to a different lobby... but ... yeah.

Yeah, FFXIV is the new Second Life.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

-snip-

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But you're also missing my point. I'm not disagreeing that more can be done in the overworld.

I am disagreeing that people can say there is no point in anything. Because at the end of the day if someone does gain enjoyment out of something, then it served its purpose. I mean, I could flip each of your to the opposite direction, in the end it all depends on what people consider fun and what options they are provided.

I like learning, if you wouldn't mind offering your (read: Open question all are welcome) solution to the "dead world" you see?

I epxected a bad bad rant from the OP, but it really has something "new".

Yeah, in 1.0 getting your explore achievements was a thrilling experience. I remember that zone near the garlemands (I cant remamber if it was already coerthas, I just remember it had no snow it was really really wide and barren and the mobs were frightening for a 30ish lancer otw to his DRG quest, I think we had to team up for it in the long run because it was impossible alone haha)