Titan is hard because your camera isn't zoomed out, not because of server-side delays

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

I've never been killed by lag on Titan. Every death that I've had was 100% my own fault. I either didn't move fast enough, or made the wrong choice when I was moving out of an ability or casting a spell.

I know that people constantly say that lag is killing them, but a friend of mine put it best - "That's 'Post-Bad Decision Lag. It's an epidemic in this game!'"

Tonight I died on Titan because bombs came out and so did landslide and I had the choice of running into the bombs about to explode or running through the Landslide to the safe side. But that death was my fault. I made the wrong decision. It wasn't lag or anything else.

---

The fact that this is your experience doesn't make it true for everyone else.

By now, I've run Titan countless times for myself and friends; I know the rotations, dodge stuff all the time except for my occasional screw up, and am at the point where I find the fight fun and comfortable.

I've seen all sorts of weird stuff going on in Titan, though.

When he's supposed to jump, he just "teleports" to the middle of the screen and stays there... up until you see the ground shake. Then you know, the game didn't show you his jumping. All of my party mates have seen this too, at the same time.

I've seen all sorts of crazy stuff happening with bombs. Circle bombs not dropping one by one, but just popping up around Titan all at once. Bombs still physically there, when they have already exploded, etc. Some times, other party members complain about seeing the same thing just as I saw it. Other times they don't.

Among other things. I don't know enough about networks to blame either SE or the ISPs. Sometimes for sure, player's computers definitely play a role in how quickly you can see an AoE before you move out of it. But when some of these issues happen to everyone in the party at the same time, I tend to think that those are server side.

Still, even when it would be ISPs fault or whatever, it is kind of silly then designing an MMO where dodging is most of its bread and butter. IDK how long before these people that would probably be good gamers, start quitting because they can't handle it anymore.

I believe people are having genuine problems with latency issues. Even though it becomes an easy excuse for people that don't know the fight as well, it doesn't mean that it is a real thing for many others

.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kendall_Lawliet

snip
.

---

Yeah, I often see instant landslides as well, or Titan (visually) skipping landslide completely only to knock somebody off with no animation. It is far more than players being bad or a camera problem.

I think the title is a bit misleading. Server side delay/lack of positional refreshing on SE's part is always going to make combat (and attempting to run along side your friend for happy fun and smiles) unrealistic and inaccurate. There are threads regarding the server side delays that SE has steadily ignored. Help us get them noticed!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1484493
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-fix-something.

Or remember which attacks or next and move ahead of time, thats how I avoid most plumes, especiallyy when I run opposite of the other players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshdavis271

Or remember which attacks or next and move ahead of time, thats how I avoid most plumes, especiallyy when I run opposite of the other players.

---

You can't move ahead of time when it comes to things like landslide, because you could be moving INTO the landslide. Which has happened to me before because the game didn't show me where it was in real time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyra

You can't move ahead of time when it comes to things like landslide, because you could be moving INTO the landslide. Which has happened to me before because the game didn't show me where it was in real time.

---

The only time you know if you're moving into landslide is if you decide to move from where you are into the path where someone gets hate in the direction you run - Btw, did you know? The ground under titan slightly behind him darkens when he's about to use an ability? Also as for your sig, you clearly lost a lot of packets to their servers, that definitely hasn't happened to anyone in the 60+ Titan's I've helped with thus far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

The only time you know if you're moving into landslide is if you decide to move from where you are into the path where someone gets hate in the direction you run - Btw, did you know? The ground under titan slightly behind him darkens when he's about to use an ability? Also as for your sig, you clearly lost a lot of packets to their servers, that definitely hasn't happened to anyone in the 60+ Titan's I've helped with thus far.

---

Is not loss of packets there. If it where, you would not see anyone else starting a new skill while it happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcheustheWise

And yet... we still have alot of people coming onto the forums and complaining about it.

---

I remember once a year or so ago CCP released a pretty big patch for Eve. After the release of the patch a "bunch" of people started complaining that CCP messed the game up in a way that was causing their computers to overheat and break. If you just read the forums you would of thought that CCP just caused millions of computers to be broken because of a patch (not boot.ini). The reality is it was only a small number of people and it was their fault for failing to properly clean their systems and such.

Long story short. A vocal small group can see much larger then they are. People also don't tend to vocalize when things are going well for them.

That being said I'm sure some people are having issues but I've played across several ISPs and several machines (including laptops) and I've never experienced this issue. So I'm lucky I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tool_of_Society

Long story short. A vocal small group can see much larger then they are. People also don't tend to vocalize when things are going well for them.

That being said I'm sure some people are having issues but I've played across several ISPs and several machines (including laptops) and I've never experienced this issue. So I'm lucky I guess.

---

The very vocal group of players. The only time something like that happened was with Sega which is a problem from the company affecting everyone (since it kind of...screwed you lol), but despite all of the topics, the only thing people have done was test hops and configurations but never acknowledged when people stated they checked in with their ISP about certain datapackage they're on to see if they're getting throttled. If your ISP has a policy against P2P like torrenting and the like, it's a good idea to check with them about it considering the infrastructure of FFXIV. It's like back to 1.x when you had people loathe the update system but it worked flawlessly for many but not so much for those who even open ports/give XIV priority and so on.

There's so many variables on the user end but the very vocal ones will shrug off anything could be wrong on their end :\ My internet works fine normally but that doesn't mean there can't be an issue somewhere - Ever notice how Skype will still work even if the majority of your net is down?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

The very vocal group of players.. There's so many variables on the user end but the very vocal ones will shrug off anything could be wrong on their end :\ My internet works fine normally but that doesn't mean there can't be an issue somewhere - Ever notice how Skype will still work even if the majority of your net is down?

---

I'm tired of BS replies like this.

If you don't have lag problems with WoW, or SWTOR or Rift, but do notice heinous lag in this particular game, it's much likelier Square is to blame.

It wouldn't be new. SWTOR started out with terrible animation delays and lag issues too, due to their graphics engine and netcode. They fixed it. I have confidence Square can, too.

But not if they deny the problem or refuse to acknowledge it. If they do that, the game will go the way of 1.0 soon enough.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard others bash people in game for using Legacy targeting. I use Legacy targeting and it makes the game much more enjoyable because I don't have to worry about carpal tunnel syndrome. The amount of disdain I have for that standard movement system in this game is unrivaled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Btw, did you know? The ground under titan slightly behind him darkens when he's about to use an ability?

---

Did it occur to you that if the game isn't going to update the landslide...it isn't going to darken the ground either?

Quote:

---

Also as for your sig, you clearly lost a lot of packets to their servers, that definitely hasn't happened to anyone in the 60+ Titan's I've helped with thus far.

---

So since you didn't see it happen, it must not exist? How is this relevant?

What happens in my sig (which isn't me btw, someone else posted a link to a youtube vid of it happening) can happen ten times in a titan fight alone. The thing is, you are only going to notice it during landslide. You aren't going to know it's happened to people during say stomps, since everyone is getting hit by that anyways.

There are more than enough people voicing that this is happening (and not just on the OF) to say this isn't some rare situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

There's so many variables on the user end but the very vocal ones will shrug off anything could be wrong on their end :\ My internet works fine normally but that doesn't mean there can't be an issue somewhere - Ever notice how Skype will still work even if the majority of your net is down?

---

You are making a terrible assumption that people didn't try to check their stuff. We (hubby and I) did everything we could. It does seem to be a hop to an ISP issue, and we reported it. Guess who else could report it and talk directly to Tata Communications? SE

Guess who also could be smart about spreading their servers instead of having SEVERAL COUNTRIES all thread to the same location (causing these hops to get overloaded)? SE.

It doesn't matter to me if this is a coding issue or an ISP issue. SE should be going through the channels just as much as us to try and get the issue resolved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by homunyan

The "delay issue" is a problem with ISPs, not the game. A number of people, including myself, dont have any lag.

---

It is the .3 sec delay. If someone wants to get out of the way at THE last second...they should be able to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyra

What happens in my sig (which isn't me btw, someone else posted a link to a youtube vid of it happening) can happen ten times in a titan fight alone.

---

I've made close to 10 mill from selling titan kills, I also help with the server's titan kill shell so I've run it enough times to be pretty qualified on this.

Learning aside, every plume I've eaten has been my own fault due to being greedy with a cast, not thinking ahead far enough or simply not moving quickly enough and wasting valuable time not moving in a straight line etc. I only found myself eating lines when I got muddled on bombs and didn't position myself right. For reference I'm in the UK and with BT (An isp which is known for having p2p throttling issues with FFXIV) and I don't use any VPN or the like.

As said before, the gif in your sig is most likely packetloss from the client to the server, most likely a shared connection, queue for regular titan whilst uploading to youtube and you'll get exactly the same thing. Whilst yes, this encounter punishes a subpar connection harshly, you can't really hold SE responsible for the wonder that is the internet. WoW had exactly the same issues with the Hagan safety dance, the difference there was that the movement was simplistic and far easier to remember.

I don't understand why people have such a thing for Legacy movement controls. It's literally the same thing as standard, except the left mouse button doesn't move the camera independently anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

As said before, the gif in your sig is most likely packetloss from the client to the server, most likely a shared connection, queue for regular titan whilst uploading to youtube and you'll get exactly the same thing. Whilst yes, this encounter punishes a subpar connection harshly, you can't really hold SE responsible for the wonder that is the internet. WoW had exactly the same issues with the Hagan safety dance, the difference there was that the movement was simplistic and far easier to remember.

---

I am not denying it is packet loss. Find where I said otherwise. And yes, you can hold SE responsible to get them to work with the companies to stop this issue. I did not have these issues in WoW, WAR, TERA, RIFT, AION, EQ2, FFXI, STWOR, etc. etc. (I like to try everything).

Trying to put the blame on me is ridiculous.

You didn't have these issues in other mmos because they didn't punish slow movement anything like as vigorously as Titan HM. The only other boss I can think of that timed movement down to the second was Hagan in Naxx, everything else I can think of punished positioning rather than timing. Ps never had that issue in Swtor? I saw all manner of hilarious bridge dives in that pvp arena! Tera was very slick but was also a mature game by the time we saw an NA/EU release. I loathed Aion and Rift so I can't comment there. War was dominated by horrific framerates. Both FFXI and EQ2 were a completely different era of mmo and hence didn't have anything like the pace we see now in Tera/WoW/FFXIV. I'll also add that I played WoW on the US servers both to be with friends from EQ1 and stop myself from getting into raiding seriously (So I went for HWL instead :eek:), whilst I had zero issues in PvE, World PvP and BGs, I struggled massively in Arena due to not being able to pole dance effectively.

Putting the P2P throttling saga in SE's lap is fair enough and yes, they made a mistake with their choice of data centre (driven by bean counters I suspect), but they can't really be held responsible for stuff like Telia's wonky peering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Ps never had that issue in Swtor? I saw all manner of hilarious bridge dives in that pvp arena!

---

Wait are you saying you saw something I didn't see? It must not have existed and was your computer!

Quote:

---

but they can't really be held responsible for stuff like Telia's wonky peering.

---

quote me where I said that. Otherwise, you are just attacking me for things I never said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3leMnErroL0

Demonstrates exactly what the problem is, and its not even on the Titan battle. Watch it then deny theres lag/latency/positional update delay call it whatever you will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyra

quote me where I said that. Otherwise, you are just attacking me for things I never said.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyra

And yes, you can hold SE responsible to get them to work with the companies to stop this issue.

---

Two posts up sir

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I've made close to 10 mill from selling titan kills, I also help with the server's titan kill shell so I've run it enough times to be pretty qualified on this.

Learning aside, every plume I've eaten has been my own fault due to being greedy with a cast, not thinking ahead far enough or simply not moving quickly enough and wasting valuable time not moving in a straight line etc. I only found myself eating lines when I got muddled on bombs and didn't position myself right. For reference I'm in the UK and with BT (An isp which is known for having p2p throttling issues with FFXIV) and I don't use any VPN or the like.

As said before, the gif in your sig is most likely packetloss from the client to the server, most likely a shared connection, queue for regular titan whilst uploading to youtube and you'll get exactly the same thing. Whilst yes, this encounter punishes a subpar connection harshly, you can't really hold SE responsible for the wonder that is the internet. WoW had exactly the same issues with the Hagan safety dance, the difference there was that the movement was simplistic and far easier to remember.

---

With that line there in red you kind of lose all credibility when speaking about this issue, it's a blatant conflict of interest. I mean if they did fix this you would lose a major source of income.


Fact is building in a 300ms delay on positioning on top of the various "lag" people get in mmos is ludicrous especially in a game where they

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

... punish slow movement .....

---

and you need to actively dodge attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

You didn't have these issues in other mmos because they didn't punish slow movement anything like as vigorously as Titan HM. The only other boss I can think of that timed movement down to the second was Hagan in Naxx, everything else I can think of punished positioning rather than timing. Ps never had that issue in Swtor? I saw all manner of hilarious bridge dives in that pvp arena! Tera was very slick but was also a mature game by the time we saw an NA/EU release. I loathed Aion and Rift so I can't comment there. War was dominated by horrific framerates. Both FFXI and EQ2 were a completely different era of mmo and hence didn't have anything like the pace we see now in Tera/WoW/FFXIV. I'll also add that I played WoW on the US servers both to be with friends from EQ1 and stop myself from getting into raiding seriously (So I went for HWL instead :eek:), whilst I had zero issues in PvE, World PvP and BGs, I struggled massively in Arena due to not being able to pole dance effectively.

Putting the P2P throttling saga in SE's lap is fair enough and yes, they made a mistake with their choice of data centre (driven by bean counters I suspect), but they can't really be held responsible for stuff like Telia's wonky peering.

---

H Atramedes
H Rag
Spine (Normal and Heroic)
H Sha of Fear
H Empress (with low gear)
H Blade Lord
Elegon (Normal and Heroic)
H Will of the Emperor (with low gear)
H Durumu
H Lei Shen
H Ra-Den (for different reasons, and only if your positioning was very bad)
H Dark Animus (again, for different reasons, but still quite punishing)
H Malkorok (for one mechanic)
H Thok (for two mechanics)
H Siegecrafter (for...basically everything >.<)
H Klaxxi Paragons
Garrosh (Normal and Heroic)

There's more, I'm sure, but yeah, there's plenty of stuff in WoW that's extremely punishing to slow movement. Actually, some of it is more punishing because a lot of stuff in WoW doesn't telegraph where the "danger zone" is. You just have to know.

-----

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

With that line there in red you kind of lose all credibility when speaking about this issue, it's a blatant conflict of interest. I mean if they did fix this you would lose a major source of income.

---

Oh come off it. If you're going to call that poster out, do it on what they say, not whether or not they sell runs. I don't sell runs, and I haven't died from lag, either. Every death I've had has been my own damn fault.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by homunyan

The "delay issue" is a problem with ISPs, not the game. A number of people, including myself, dont have any lag.

---

Please stop spewing false information

the delay is part of the game, people with perfect connections and high-end PC's still have delay

it is part of the game, something that is fundamental to how the engine is built, because of the requirement that it also must be compatible with PS3 and PS4

it will not be fixed, because it can not be fixed at all in any way

Titan HM seems alot better than I remember normal Titan being back when ARR was released. I just went to bed one night because I was too flustered with it, I would sprint halfway across his platform and still get knocked back and off. I failed my group about 4 times before I just said I'm sorry, and logged for the night. If I wasn't out by half cast then I was hit. HM I may just have gotten better because although I still haven't beaten it, out of the 8 times I played earlier the only time I got hit was coming down from the lb. Earlier I was in AK on demon wall though. Repel happened, I seen everyone else fly backwards but I didn't move, I thought I must have dodged the attack, so I went on to the side to start attacking, the team gets back up to the wall and starts hitting it again, and BAM I fly off the edge because by that time I was back at it's side attacking... Really wondered what everyone else seen but it was a random group and nobody said a word...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

..snip..

Oh come off it. If you're going to call that poster out, do it on what they say, not whether or not they sell runs. I don't sell runs, and I haven't died from lag, either. Every death I've had has been my own damn fault.

---

I called him out because he needed to be called out. Myself and others have been vocal about this since the betas and they did improve on the problem but not enough. Now that betas are done it is becoming increasingly difficult to get any attention by the proper people on this issue because of people like him and yourself.

It's pretty clear you both belong to group C. See here for an explantion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

With that line there in red you kind of lose all credibility when speaking about this issue, it's a blatant conflict of interest. I mean if they did fix this you would lose a major source of income.

---

Quite the jaded view there, I'm almost hurt :(

I sold titans so I could afford the melds I needed to be ready for Twintania at almost 200k a pop. I wasn't in it to stockpile huge hoards of gil and hence I stopped once I had what I needed, you did see the part where I added that I help Ragnarok's attack on titan linkshell right? Whilst I openly admit I don't mention that I'm a former seller for fear of the inevitable drama, I put every bit as much effort into the free runs as I did the 700k specials.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

and you need to actively dodge attacks.

---

That are 100% scripted and entirely predictable.

Memorising the script is a big part of the challenge.

I'm guessing a big chunk of that list is from pandatown as I don't know a bunch of them =( Fair point though!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Quite the jaded view there, I'm almost hurt :(

I sold titans so I could afford the melds I needed to be ready for Twintania at almost 200k a pop. I wasn't in it to stockpile huge hoards of gil and hence I stopped once I had what I needed, you did see the part where I added that I help Ragnarok's attack on titan linkshell right? Whilst I openly admit I don't mention that I'm a former seller for fear of the inevitable drama, I put every bit as much effort into the free runs as I did the 700k specials.



That are 100% scripted and entirely predictable.

Memorising the script is a big part of the challenge.

---

If you had been following the various threads you would know we have addressed what you claim, memorizing a pattern that doesn't ever change does not equal skill. Skill isn't about doing the achy breaky dance rotation starting at a certain point. Skill is about knowing how to deal with attacks regardless of when they come at you.

What we have here is a cheesy sad attempt at making things "hardcore".

Perhaps you mean well but you are hurting this cause and that is about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Two posts up sir

---

I was referring to contacting the ISPs which even you said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Putting the P2P throttling saga in SE's lap is fair enough and yes,

---

if titan is so hard then how come I have my relic ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grailer

if titan is so hard then how come I have my relic ?

---

Your statement has nothing to do with the issue under discussion here, guess your in group C too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

Myself and others have been vocal about this since the betas and they did improve on the problem but not enough.

---

The thing is, I firmly believe the 300ms poll rate is there to ease load on the inadequate server infrastructure that they already have in place. Plus from my time on US WoW/Swtor servers I'm of the opinion that simple transatlantic latency is the bigger issue here. Rather than shouting at SE to improve the netcode, it'd be more productive to yell at the finance department to invest in a proper EU server group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip

---

I live in Southern CA. It's is not just transatlantic issues. It's productive to yell at them to spread there servers out + get them to help us push companies like Tata Communications (the Southern California hop that is throttling) to fix their issues. Which is what the majority of these threads have been about. What ISN'T beneficial, is people coming in saying "l2p, lol there is no issue you are just bad." Rather than dividing the community, people should be trying to team up and help SE realize just how much of an issue this is. For those that don't have these issues, it still helps you to support our cause because the sooner this gets resolved, the less wipes you'll see from PUGs (not that this will go away completely, I am not denying there are bads. But I'd rather bads be bad because they are bad, not bads be bad because of throttling issues.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

I called him out because he needed to be called out. Myself and others have been vocal about this since the betas and they did improve on the problem but not enough. Now that betas are done it is becoming increasingly difficult to get any attention by the proper people on this issue because of people like him and yourself.

It's pretty clear you both belong to group C. See here for an explantion.

---

You may wish to add more groups to that. Because there are most certainly people who don't fit into any of them. I've had very little issue dodging mechanics on Titan, with ~200ms latency no less. I've dodged them when the server was lagging since I knew they were coming based on his rotation. Does that mean the servers are perfect? No. There are issues, the .3 second positional updates work, but could easily be better. HOWEVER. That doesn't mean people's connections aren't at issue either, or their ISP, or the route to the servers which SE has no control over, or many other things that could be an issue but will get brushed aside as being SE's problem to deal with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ispano

You may wish to add more groups to that. Because there are most certainly people who don't fit into any of them. I've had very little issue dodging mechanics on Titan, with ~200ms latency no less. I've dodged them when the server was lagging since I knew they were coming based on his rotation. Does that mean the servers are perfect? No. There are issues, the .3 second positional updates work, but could easily be better. HOWEVER. That doesn't mean people's connections aren't at issue either, or their ISP, or the route to the servers which SE has no control over, or many other things that could be an issue but will get brushed aside as being SE's problem to deal with.

---

^^ Is basically what I was getting at. It's also true that what happens on my screen in terms of what other players are doing is not necessarily what is happening on the other players' screens.

I have 3 relics and working towards number 4 and I can say for a fact that the issue isn't because of the camera zoom. I always keep the camera zoomed out at max in order to see everything. There have been times where there has been no lag in the fight, and times when I can get out of attacks and be in the middle of attacking/casting and then die from plumes that I was already out of. I've been knocked off of the platform from landslides that I've gotten out of and running alongside and still been killed.

The lag isn't always with titan though. There have been times when I've done an attack or casted a spell and I can't do anything for 1-3 seconds because the server hasn't updated that the attack is finished and the mp/tp needs to be deducted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

^^ Is basically what I was getting at. It's also true that what happens on my screen in terms of what other players are doing is not necessarily what is happening on the other players' screens.

---

This is correct and has been proven, as a server sync/delay/whathaveyou issue. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-everybody%29

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyra

I live in Southern CA.

---

Same, where about? What data package? Granted I use Charter but I'm having no issues in this regard - and since we can't brush aside variables, I know Charter doesn't throttle P2P traffic, at least with what I'm signed up for.

Quote:

---

Rather than dividing the community, people should be trying to team up and help SE realize just how much of an issue this is.

---

This is what some people don't get - While you have people who have issues you have equally as many if not more who do not, how can you expect people to "come together" and basically say "yes there's a problem" if they've personally not had it or seen it? So "coming together" about this won't happen unless it's a universal problem, since you have a group of people who say SMN is a worthless class, then you have a group that says it's amazing - Are we going to "come together" to get SMN fixed because the vocal crowd says it's bad? Issues like this have a lot of variables because it's not affecting everyone, so we can't really expect SE to "fix" what is clearly out of their hands. The only "mistake" they did was probably making this game's traffic act as P2P in a time when ISPs throttle it, which would probably take quite the overhaul in certain parts to rectify.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Same, where about? What data package? Granted I use Charter but I'm having no issues in this regard - and since we can't brush aside variables, I know Charter doesn't throttle P2P traffic, at least with what I'm signed up for.

---

LA with Time Warner. We get routed through Tata. We have friends who live in OC who have AT&T that gets routed through Tata (also getting issues). We also have friends in Oceanside who have the same issue with Tata (I forget what service they have).

Quote:

---

This is what some people don't get - While you have people who have issues you have equally as many if not more who do not, how can you expect people to "come together" and basically say "yes there's a problem" if they've personally not had it or seen it?

---

Everyone has seen it. There are videos.