upcoming rdm changes?

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

It's always very strange to me to see people call embolden various kinds of bad when in the current era of party buffs it's one of the stronger buff functions out there especially in a comp where the other 3 dps are physical. It is far from borderline useless. But it could be one of the things they do adjust. I don't personally expect that, more the vein of direct potency adjustments especially with cleave/aoe in mind.

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THIS.

Embolden can be improved by making it universal (and it should be) but embolden is more boss-killing power than your entire fight's worth of jolts, or engagement/displacement in our kit, and Red Mages need to understand that maximizing Embolden is as pivotal as maximizing your 'gagements.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

People are not using it, because:

1- it's key worth (raise utility) is not good enough to justify the damage loss; Some data centers have NO RDM clears in Ultimate!
2- Embolden's worth has too much variance based on comp.

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While I certainly do not discount Ultimate content.

You cannot judge Red Mage performance on content less than 1% of the playerbase is ever going to play while ignoring all the other content where they will most likely be playing where you do see a definite need for that Res. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

While I do see people in Party Finder making parties for Ultimate content. Its still a very small portion overall in comparison to the enormous numbers running all other content. And there RDMs have a definite impact on any party.

I'd still take one any day of the week in any party I'm in when I play other jobs. Especially when doing Roulettes for either Dungeons, Alliance or 8 Mans. Because they really do save entire runs/raids. And if they're competent and its a primarily melee party all the better.

And that I think is the real problem here.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

You cannot judge Red Mage performance on content less than 1%

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I can, however, use the history of RDM representation since 5.0 launched. RDM was rare in Titania Ex and Inno Ex clears when that was a thing, it was rare when Eden's Gate (Savage) was a thing, and it's rare now. This is in contrast to Stormblood where, despite lesser performance, it was the second most popular DPS. The playfeel didn't change, so it must be the performance issues.

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While I do see people in Party Finder making parties

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But it's also the content in which a job's flaws are most apparent. These are the sorts of fights where RDM is supposed to shine; by cutting down the progression time significantly by raising people so they can practice more fight. The problem is, the DPS checks are tight enough that the RDM can't raise past them--and then your having less damage really bites you in the ass. Too many deaths and the RDM's raising doesn't help, and at the sweet spot of 'One death per minute' then the summoner does the job equally as well as a RDM.

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Especially when doing Roulettes for either Dungeons, Alliance or 8 Mans.

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This, however, is content where their disadvantage doesn't come into play. There's no real enrage checks, and they're severely undertuned for any meaningful test of a job's capabilities. A red mage can carry people through easy stuff; however, literally any good player can carry those groups, and the verraise is just a crutch. That mitigation becomes less and less of a swing as the punishments for mistakes become more and more unrecoverable.

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Because they really do save entire runs/raids. And if they're competent and its a primarily melee party all the better.

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The problem is that making the 'melee party better' is already factored into the numbers we use to show their balance. When you look at FFlogs performance, and such, Embolden IS factored into the Red Mage, and if you look at the top logs, Red Mage's best case scenario still doesn't make up for the shortfall. Embolden is more dps than Jolt II, and more than your engagement/displacements in ideal conditions for that--we all know it's good.

It's just that it's not good enough to make up for the shortfall.

And that I think is the real problem here.[/QUOTE]

It really isn't. RDM is paying too much for what it brings. It's that simple. It just needs a liiiiitle bit more. Not the amount Summoner got, but... it's almost there. Fix that, the job will be good.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

*snip* (Re: Ultimates)
When you look at FFlogs performance,
It really isn't. RDM is paying too much for what it brings. It's that simple. It just needs a liiiiitle bit more. Not the amount Summoner got, but... it's almost there. Fix that, the job will be good.

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With all due respect here Gruntler even on FFLogs (whch I still only take with a grain of salt for obvious reasons at this point, and have not changed my mind on) the RDM is still higher that a lot of the other DPS jobs in there.

So if the Red Mage is being excluded, it is not due to pure DPS unless a lot of other jobs are, because RDM brings a lot of other utilities like Embolden a lot of those other jobs do not on top of that DPS.

So if this is a problem, it is not Red Mage specific.

Public TEA clear data to date:

Box plots of observed RDPS
https://nemekh.s-ul.eu/C8cgUGNT

https://nemekh.s-ul.eu/5oBi4l0L

That's 62 observed RDM clears across all DCs with SMN the most represented of the DPS at 757 and BLM at 121. The only pinch of salt with this data is that it discounts clear data from sales.

I don't think you appreciate enough just how skewed it is against RDM in representation for Ultimate as being dead last in total clears.

he does not play endgame nor got the understanding if people talk about it... highend content, balance, difference in adps or rdps - the worth of utility/buffalignments, he questions the site & balance, generell role basics which should be clear... no he’s not on the level at all : /

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

With all due respect here Gruntler even on FFLogs (whch I still only take with a grain of salt for obvious reasons at this point, and have not changed my mind on) the RDM is still higher that a lot of the other DPS jobs in there.

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/32/ RDM (least used job in Ultimate), outperforms ranged, and only ranged. And Ranged is underperforming as well, which is an argument for a different thread. No 'RDM needs buffs' advocate in the game is advocating leaving ranged as-is either.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29 RDM (second least used job in Savage) doesn't outperform MCH, which is again, undertuned. Only outperforms BRD and DNC.

In Extreme trials:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28 Huh, seems the trend continues, except RDM actually gets played here.

Maybe you're looking at casual fare: Eden Normal: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...difficulty=100 NOPE. NOT HERE.

Okay, well.... um.... Copied Factory? https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/31 WAIT NO NOT HERE EITHER.

....there's... literally nothing else. That's it. That's ALL of Shadowbringers. That's ALL the data for RDM in 5.1

Like, did you even look?

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So if the Red Mage is being excluded, it is not due to pure DPS unless a lot of other jobs are, because RDM brings a lot of other utilities like Embolden a lot of those other jobs do not on top of that DPS.

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Embolden's contribution is included in those numbers. Those numbers are for all those jobs, minus contributions from other players' buffs (like Embolden, Technical Step, Astro Cards), plus contributions from buffs to others (so, RDM gets credit for Embolden, AST gets credit for cards, etc.) So saying 'RDM brings other utilities' is like, bleh, that's already in the numbers. The only thing that isn't is credit for damage saved from raising.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/16AHP...done&source=14 shows the world's best NA RDM Titan Savage run. If you take the time to look how the damage plays out, you'll notice at the bottom Embolden's contribution calculated at 845.4 dps. If you bothered to actually look, you'd see that RDM's 'being behind' is after being given credit for Embolden here. Please learn how this works.

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So if this is a problem, it is not Red Mage specific.

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No, it isn't, it's also specific to ranged physical. Which no one is disputing needs help too. But it's not specific to raid buffs, because those are factored into the data you see.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

No, it isn't, it's also specific to ranged physical. Which no one is disputing needs help too. But it's not specific to raid buffs, because those are factored into the data you see.

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Well at least you do acknowledge that. And fair enough on the Raid Buffs it is not the only factor and I do agree with you.

And there is a difference between normal End game content like Eden and Copied Factory where all of these jobs contribute which most people play (Hell now there's a parce up there someone submitted from me where I am averaging 3-8 Verraises per Fight with RDM in Copied) vs extreme content like Ultimate which very few actually play.

In Extreme content like Ultimate we are seeing almost half the jobs in the game unable to keep up or compete in a DPS scenario and being excluded for that matter. So I don't believe this is specific to RDM. It is more likely a content balance issue not a class balance issue.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well at least you do acknowledge that. And fair enough on the Raid Buffs it is not the only factor and I do agree with you.

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Specifically, what I am saying is that raid buffs are very much a factor, and when you look at the damage calculations, that's already plugged in. So when we show you RDM underperforming, saying 'but Embolden' isn't valid because that Embolden is calculated and added in to the numbers we show you. That's what we're trying to tell you.

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And there is a difference between normal End game content like Eden and Copied Factory where all of these jobs contribute which most people play (Hell now there's a parce up there someone submitted from me where I am averaging 3-8 Verraises per Fight with RDM in Copied) vs extreme content like Ultimate which very few actually play.

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The former is less of a litmus test for balance because it doesn't -test- the jobs. And even then, even in a lower test environment, RDM isn't competing. The reason we bring up harder content is because that's when the jobs are tested.

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In Extreme content like Ultimate we are seeing almost half the jobs in the game unable to keep up or compete in a DPS scenario and being excluded for that matter.

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It's not that simple. As the old adage goes, RDM can complete that content. It's just that you're not getting value in taking it there that you would from Summoner. The answer to 'All jobs can complete content' is 'You can beat Dark Souls with a dance pad, doesn't make you want to buy a dance pad for Dark Souls.' RDM is close, but not exactly there.

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So I don't believe this is specific to RDM. It is more likely a content balance issue not a class balance issue.

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Except, it is a class balance issue. RDM, and the ranged physical, are undertuned, and it's known that it's undertuned. RDM needs juuuuuust a bit more, and it's all good again.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

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I agree with more or less everything you're saying. My only issue I have though is you are comparing all percentiles. This is including the worst of the worst players and they actively bring down job balance moreso than they should. For a better look at balance it's better to look at 90+ (discounting max because every single 100 percentile has insane lucky crits). 90+ is generally skilled players optimizing and not dying that know how to play. It skews balance when comparing all percentiles, RDM is partically punished at lower percentiles; take a bad rdm in an already bad group and then have it lowering dps further by rezzing instead of doing DPS.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=90

As you can see RDM is above MCH. But as I said, all 4 of them need further buffs, none of those jobs should be that low.