#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Even the japanese players think this thread is a circus. Thanks trolls, lol.

edit: Man, I wish SE would put better barriers for (forum) account creations. It's really disingenuous, that new accounts pop out of nowhere and smite any valid concerns.

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If you didn't catch it, they were looking weirdly at it as soon as they heard "Strike".
The trolls just added to it.

This game is suffering from its own version of the FF6 end game syndrome. This is a case where challenge plateaus and starts to decline as you slowly become a nearly or completely untouchable living god.

what if we just nerfed bloodwhetting lol

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

If you didn't catch it, they were looking weirdly at it as soon as they heard "Strike".
The trolls just added to it.

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Ah yes, thats why they're having a serious discussion about healers in general and come to conclusions and ideas.
Right. At the moment, this thread is being flooded with nonsense just to keep up the entertainment. How else would you bridge the content drought until early access.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I do feel like Astrologian is rather busy compared to other healers. It feels like it has all sorts of attacks, cards to manage, and doing all of that keeps me busy tbh. Comparatively, I sleep when playing as a Scholar.

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Hey bad news, Astrologian now plays two cards every two minutes with no redraws and no astrodyne, should be able to single weave the whole burst.

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Originally Posted by CinaedhVik

Some HOT TIPS


If you (collective you) want to GCD heal: Remove OGCDs from your hotbars.
If you (collective you) want challenging dungeons, may I introduce you to Criterion?
If you (collective you) want to compare a bunch of top gamers crushing the very first leveling dungeon in an expansion while wearing level 100 AF synced to 92, why?

If you (collective you) want a DPS rotation: Put Glare on 1, Glare on 2, and Glare on 3*

* Dare you to tell me this is somehow better than pressing 1 1 1, potential skill animation variety aside.

This is a silly thread. Everybody is saying "If you just make it how I personally like it, it'll be fixed" and these same people probably never played current AST, never tried optimizing, never spammed mentor roulette in progress. Some of you want dps buttons, some of you want to heal more, some of you want others to heal less; it's a cacophony of disparate ideas bound to be steamrolled in 2 days by the PLL and a week later by Early Access to DT.


Come up with better, clearer concerns for patch 7.2. Queue times are not going to be impacted by this "strike".

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If you (collective you) want a better haircut, just do it yourself, while your friends the dps see the best salon experience ever, and the tanks see a subpar aesthetician, but the haircut at least isn't terrible. In the end, you end up with a butchered cut, while your other two friends have either a great haircut or...a decent one that some might find flaws in but is still presentable. Do you not see why this might be an issue? I mean you're free to like healers as they are, but the problem is very glaring to say the least. You shouldn't have to go above and beyond to make your experience better, it should already be good to begin with.

Now, you can have a good salon go, and then get highlights to make your hair look absolutely flawless (in the case of criterion), but if your hair is a rat's nest and you get highlights, it doesn't change the fact your hair is still a rat's nest.

Over on JP, I found a post of a player Tonaka who wanted to convey something to foreigners but was not comfortable doing so with a translator, and I wanted to share their opinions. Tonaka, if you read this, I always like to see players come to interact with us even if through a translator, but there are a lot of people in North America who are really rude and disrespectful at times which isn't fair to foreigners trying their best to communicate with us. So I understand why you my be apprehensive to do so.

I'll include my understanding of their post and summarize it, and I'll add a link to their original post as well.

Their first question is do we want recovery from the tanks removed, or do we want to just reduce how often they can provide sustain?

Their second question is if we want DPS on healers to be more complicated, how complicated should it be? If we also want to heal with the GCD, how often should we be healing with the GCD? For example, would we want a healer with a DPS rotation like Warrior's where healing is added to the job? Or a DPS rotation like Summoner's where only healing is added to the job? Or would we want new healer job mechanics?

They also saw us referencing "5 years," so were we happy with healers in Stormblood? If so, what was good about healers in Stormblood?

Here is a link to the page with their response.

Please do not be rude or disrespectful to them! And please, if you want to answer them, do it in this thread. I don't want to take over their thread. I really am happy that we're communicating with each other, but it needs to be done delicately. Tonaka, I apologize if my summary does not accurately represent what you said in any way. Having to translate your post to English means it's possible I did not understand things correctly.

To answer your questions myself:

I like that tanks and DPS can have sustain and think it's an interesting way for them to help the team outside of doing damage. But I think because most FFXIV battles are gentle when it comes to damage, rather than helping the healers, it ends up invading their duties. I don't want to take these tools away from tanks or DPS either. But if using healing effects on tanks and DPS came with some cost, like how Paladin's Clemency is on the GCD and costs MP, that would help prevent them from being too powerful. Another idea is rather than tanks and healers providing direct healing, instead they make the healer's recovery stronger.

For DPS, I think each healer should approach DPS differently. We should have a healer that is still very approachable to new players and casual players. I think there's more DPS tools that healer could have without feeling like too much work, but still feels entertaining for when playing alone or in easier fights. But I also want a healer that feels sort of like "Red DPS that happens to heal" or "Green DPS" which I think Sage should be. You mention Warrior or Summoner, but I would rather do something like a "Mini Red Mage." Instead of your attacks being 1-1-1-1-1... Maybe it's more like: 1-2-1-3-1-4... or something like that, with a small burst at the end and maybe one or two OGCD attacks. Since Dawntrail is already designed, maybe that's something more for 8.0. For now, I'd like to see the attacks Sage already has made available more often. Phlegma is used every 20 seconds, for example.

A lot of healers were actually fans of Heavensward more than Stormblood. But I think there's a general consensus that Heavensward wasn't the best for more casual players. Stormblood is seen as more of a happy medium between the complicated Heavensward and the simple Shadowbringers. Though, White Mage is often regarded as an exception, as White Mage felt really bad in Stormblood. But for Scholar, for example, you still had Selene. You still had different poison spells with different durations. It wasn't just one poison on a 30 second duration. You were balancing several poisons. Also, I think how often you GCD healed should be around of often we would heal in Heavensward or Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by CinaedhVik

Some HOT TIPS


If you (collective you) want to GCD heal: Remove OGCDs from your hotbars.
If you (collective you) want challenging dungeons, may I introduce you to Criterion?
If you (collective you) want to compare a bunch of top gamers crushing the very first leveling dungeon in an expansion while wearing level 100 AF synced to 92, why?

If you (collective you) want a DPS rotation: Put Glare on 1, Glare on 2, and Glare on 3*

* Dare you to tell me this is somehow better than pressing 1 1 1, potential skill animation variety aside.

This is a silly thread. Everybody is saying "If you just make it how I personally like it, it'll be fixed" and these same people probably never played current AST, never tried optimizing, never spammed mentor roulette in progress. Some of you want dps buttons, some of you want to heal more, some of you want others to heal less; it's a cacophony of disparate ideas bound to be steamrolled in 2 days by the PLL and a week later by Early Access to DT.


Come up with better, clearer concerns for patch 7.2. Queue times are not going to be impacted by this "strike".

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k

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Even the japanese players think this thread is a circus. Thanks trolls, lol.

edit: Man, I wish SE would put better barriers for (forum) account creations. It's really disingenuous, that new accounts pop out of nowhere and smite any valid concerns.

Sorry JP players. :(

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Which ones? FFXIV JP forums or JP Chan forums?

The former is as bad as r/ffxiv and should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Hello!

I was one person who posted over on JP, but I did have a friend look over it who was able to do a little bit of proofreader first and I hope mine did not come across as invasive.

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I think your opinion was conveyed to the JP users almost without misunderstanding.
There were relatively many people who pressed the GOOD button on the "I thought SGE was going to be the healer's GNB..." content.
If there is one thing we can say, it is that the phrase "green dps" may have provoked some unfortunate people to react without reading the part describing its meaning.
But most people got the meaning, and I think it would be wonderful if I could combine dps and healing.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

what if we just nerfed bloodwhetting lol

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pld will simply replace war's position, at least on normal dungeons
you don't even need to use clemency with 1t3d

(of course early dungeons in ew is... likely harder to do without it, but eh)

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

k



Which ones? FFXIV JP forums or JP Chan forums?

The former is as bad as r/ffxiv and should be ignored.

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do not worry most of us even outside jp forums will think english people are very funny people, its just usual (half /s)

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

I think your opinion was conveyed to the JP users almost without misunderstanding.
There were relatively many people who pressed the GOOD button on the "I thought SGE was going to be the healer's GNB..." content.
If there is one thing we can say, it is that the phrase "green dps" may have provoked some unfortunate people to react without reading the part describing its meaning.
But most people got the meaning, and I think it would be wonderful if I could combine dps and healing.

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Ah, I understand. I am sorry for any confusion. But thank you for letting me know. I'm glad we're getting a chance to learn more about each other's thoughts and feelings.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

あのさん, 今度はヒ一ラーのデサインを本当にいいのか？

いいですはなら何故して,

私日本語の程度はただN3わ, 気分悪いなって申し訳ありません、

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The current healer will be designed so that people who are just starting out, very casual players, can easily understand what they are doing and accept it rather easily.
I think its a good point.
Of course, not everything is good, and I feel obliged to say that the part that is aimed at the core players, the part that you ENs are appealing to here, is not good enough (just my personal opinion).

My English is also poor, so I apologize.

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Originally Posted by nekomir

pld will simply replace war's position, at least on normal dungeons
you don't even need to use clemency with 1t3d

(of course early dungeons in ew is... likely harder to do without it, but eh)



do not worry most of us even outside jp forums will think english people are very funny people, its just usual (half /s)

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English people are indeed funny people. I tend to find it more intriguing to see how JP truly feels when they use their anonymous platforms to express themselves and their thoughts.

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Originally Posted by CinaedhVik

This is a silly thread. Everybody is saying "If you just make it how I personally like it, it'll be fixed" and these same people probably never played current AST

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I don't think it's necessarily about changing healers. It's just about how a Warrior can survive a double pull on their own. The packs could, collectively, do more damage. And the amount of self-heal potency on Warrior seems excessive.

That said, as you mentioned, AST feels a whole lot more interesting than playing the other healers. My attack/damage buffs include: card buffs, macrocosmos, lord of crowns, divination, astrodyne, lightspeed, earthly star, the standard DoT, spamming my attack button, did I mention card buffs because that comes up a lot and sometimes need redrawing?

Comparatively, the other healers are more just spam 1 attack and manage DoT. A haste buff on WHM and Energy Drain spam on SCH with a rare Chain Strategem. That looks like it'll be a little better in Dawntrail though, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

The current healer will be designed so that people who are just starting out, very casual players, can easily understand what they are doing and accept it rather easily.
I think its a good point.
Of course, not everything is good, and I feel obliged to say that the part that is aimed at the core players, the part that you ENs are appealing to here, is not good enough (just my personal opinion).

My English is also poor, so I apologize.

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It's perfectly fine if healers are easy on early levels, but should they be this easy and boring at max level? I don't think so. This game needs different levels of challenge, right now there's nothing that allows healers to heal more. It's not even about more DPS options - no - it's about having healers do more than just spam 1 button for 90% of the time.

Should MSQ dungeons be easy? I think it's fine because it's about progressing the story, however, we have Duty Support, should then everyone be punished with easy 1 button spam just because someone is scared? Or because they want to feel "relaxed"? Currently what's missing is the "middle ground", not even Savage is fun because it's still the 1 button spam 90% of the time.

I understand JP playerbase thinks the way healers work now is fine, which is why I'm aware Yoshi-P will ignore this feedback -- because JP playerbase is fine with this. JP community thinks SE caters to Western audience when in fact this is not so -- my experiences playing Asian MMORPGs (especially Korean) has shown that developers have bias towards their own region, ignoring the Western audience completely (example: Aion, TERA, etc). Square Enix is not an exception, and will most likely, in majority of the time, listen only to Japanese playerbase.

I honestly wish I could read all the submissions, but I am afraid that my ability and time are severely limited.
My experience here has been very interesting and I would recommend it to other JP players, but with your enthusiasm, there are too many posts and it takes up other people's time...

I didn't expect to even experience Godwin's Law here lol.

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

Agreed completely.

Unfortunately, this thread has had problems from the start. From the first day it has featured exaggerations, booming echo-chamber "us vs them" tribalism, countless alts spamming upvotes or posting for the first time ever to give the appearance of mass appeal, rampant hostility toward anyone expressing any disagreement, even hostility towards curious people just asking questions to understand what was happening or what the aims were. . .

I too asked a basic question a few days ago and someone bit my head off about it while lumping me in as essentially "the enemy" or a troll without even checking my post history nor even bothering to ask for my own feelings on the actual healing issue.

It's been mob mentality in here, and such attracts more hatred and derision, taking attention away from the topic itself and placing it instead on the sheer rudeness and bile that is coming out of this thread. Now we've even reached the point where posters are espousing ethnocentrism and anti-Asian stereotypes, which is shameful.

Why should any independent thinker wish to associated with this at this point, given what it and this thread quickly devolved into, despite perhaps agreeing wholeheartedly with the actual issue: healer gameplay. Is it worth the appearance of tying oneself to hostile racists, trolls, and lunatics? Because that's how an observer of this thread will see it. If anything, this may well end with causing more damage to the likelihood of legitimate concerns being addressed.

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See, I feel the opposite. I feel like most of the time when someone disagrees, they come in and are immediately rude and disrespectful about it. Not everyone, but an alarmingly high amount of people and are intentionally very antagonistic. Perhaps the experience you're talking about is you got swept away in that because there was already tension in the air. I won't justify that if that's the case, because that's not right either.

I don't know what confrontation you're referring to, so I would initially want to see what is it that you said originally. Was it actually more antagonistic than you thought it was? Is there any reason someone might take it as confrontational? Who responded to you? Does their response seem justified, or are they overreacting and/or being hateful about it? Is their response "biting your head off" or not? I'm not suggesting that you're lying about it. I'm just saying I haven't seen the conflict, so I can't really speak to what I think happened.

As someone who's been trying to give feedback since before Shadowbringers, it's tiring, and I constantly feel like people who don't see the issues I do are constantly against me. Now, coming into a space like this where a lot of people are barging in guns blazing, I can understand why it's difficult to be patient with disagreements, and I can see how if there are innocent disagreements, how those could get lashed out at unintentionally.

I would just like to see more consistent civility here on both sides, but if there's someone who comes in, weapons drawn, there will naturally be backlash to it.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

I honestly wish I could read all the submissions, but I am afraid that my ability and time are severely limited.
My experience here has been very interesting and I would recommend it to other JP players, but with your enthusiasm, there are too many posts and it takes up other people's time...

I didn't expect to even experience Godwin's Law here lol.

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If nothing else, this exchange with the JP playerbase has been very interesting and very informative for the EN side (I think that's a sentiment most share).
I am thankful for your efforts and glad you shared the opinion of some of the JP side.
Thank you for your efforts!

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

Hello again.
I posted what I noticed from yesterday's communication in my own way on the Japanese forum, and received some responses.
The first thing they are thinking about is what kind of player base you guys are thinking about; there is a huge difference from very casual players to those playing high difficulty contents.

Many people seem to think that if you care about casual users, it is not a good idea to overburden them with healers.
Also, some players who play mainly using PT finder and CF have never thought it was boring; adding that they can understand your opinion because when PT members are good enough and there was no need for extra heals, it is monotonous to play just throwing stones (Before 4.x, WHM was called "stone throwing machine" by some).
Some Japanese players also came to recognize that there were problems not only in tank and DPS skills, but also in content design, and some expressed that they thought this way when told.

Simply hearing "HEALERSTRIKE" or "STOP 11111" will lead to miscommunication, as some misunderstood the opinions and some came to believe that the movement was too radical.
However, if we specifically explain the problems with the content and the healing ability of T,D, JP players may gradually understand the true meaning.

Some users were surprised that the discussion in the EN forum was more heated than they had imagined, while others said that they had "seen similar discussions before (around 5.x?)."
One thing I would like to mention is that many Japanese users think that the posts of people who come to JP forums using translation tools seem very belligerent.
Depending on which translation tool you use, the impression you get is totally different depending on whether you use polite expressions peculiar to Japanese or not.
I don't want EN and JP to become enemies because of this (and probably you don't either).
If you ever come to JP's message boards, please be careful to use gentle expressions.

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Hello, and thank you for reaching out to EN side of forums!

I am a player who is, like most in this thread, not very satisfied with healer gameplay. I have taken Yoshi-P's advice of 'trying Ultimates' to find fun with Healer, but the problem is that it's only fun while 'learning', or doing 'progression', once the fight is learned completely it returns to the same gameplay that I dislike, pressing the main spell over and over. I understand that JP's stance on the matter is one of prioritizing 'smoothness of gameplay', that it's better this way to reduce chance of wipes in IDs, allowing everyone to get their daily tasks done much easier. And for the most part, I do agree that the 'smoothness' is important for those players. But, I feel that there can be a 'choice' in the job actions, so that I can choose to have a harder time doing an ID, and a player who wants the current 'smoothness' can still do so and perform almost identically as well.

When we discuss Healer jobs in EN, and the monotony of using the same one attack over and over, one big point that comes up again and again is the Tanks. Their role is to hold Emnity on the enemy and mitigate damage to themselves, mainly, yet they get to have a fun rotation for dealing damage. They get to have Ability-type actions to weave into their rotation quite frequently (for example Upheaval, or Blasting Zone). They get Gauges which allow for 'builder-spender' gameplay, building up to a big attack with their basic moves, like a WAR will use Storm's Path to build Gauge to get to the very fun 'Fell Cleave'. They get to, effectively, be a 'mini DPS' for their rotation when they don't need to do their primary job of 'taking and mitigating damage'. Healers, though, despite also being 'not a DPS' just like a Tank, are told to use the same attack button over and over, if we want to contribute damage. It does not seem very 'fair' or 'balanced' that, despite both roles being 'not the DPS', one gets to have a much more intricate rotation than the other. I understand the JP playerbase's desire to keep things stress-free for the Healer, to reduce the chance of a wipe in IDs, but I believe there is ways to increase Healer rotation depth to roughly equal to that of Tanks, while keeping the Healing portion of Healer very easy to access. Additionally, the Tanks have a difficulty scale, with many believing that WAR is easier and GNB is harder, for example. I would like to see the Healers damage rotation be made roughly equal in complexity to the WAR. This could be done in multiple ways.

I have personally written posts which ask for small adjustments to how we deal damage as a healer, intending to keep the 'smoothness' available, but adding optional complexity for those who want to push their gameplay a bit further. For example, if I were to redesign WHM, I would reduce the Damage over Time duration to 12 seconds, and add a new button called Banish, which has a 15s CD and is a tiny bit stronger than our current main spell, Glare. Because of the small damage difference, a player could just ignore Banish completely and be relatively unaffected. They would not cause an 'enrage timer' issue, because of not using the spell, because the damage difference is purposely made to be so small, it does not cause 'friction' between players if the healer opts not to use it. I made a video a long time ago, which demonstrates this idea's rotation. The same principles would be applied to SCH, AST and SGE, where they would have 'optional complexity' for the players to make use of, and the potencies tuned so that ignoring these extra buttons would not cause issues for players. Then, I would also add a new spell that costs a Lily, and applies a Barrier to the party. I do not think the 'Pure/Barrier split' has worked, and rather than try to force it to work, I would rather just remove it and let all four healers have a 'sliding scale' amount of Pure and Barrier capability. If a Healer is very good at Pure healing, it should be weaker at Barrier healing, but still capable of some Barrier healing. and the opposite for the other end of the spectrum. Finally, I would add a new Gauge which fills when casting Damage or Healing spells. And once you get 50 of this Gauge, you would be able to spend it on a very powerful healing spell. This spell would also grant 3 Elemental buffs, which would turn Glare, Dia, and the new Banish, into Quake, Tornado and Flood respectively. This would increase the potencies in such a way that would make the healing spell 'damage neutral'. By doing this and adding '50% damage reduced to secondary targets', adding just 2 buttons to the hotbar, the AOE rotation in IDs goes from 1 button (Holy) to 5 (Holy, Heal move, Quake, Flood, Tornado). And if we were to have Cure upgrade to Cure 2, and Medica to Medica 2, we can save 2 hotbar spaces.

Another example is SCH. I would like to add two Damage Over Time effects we had in previous expansions, Miasma and Shadowflare. By tuning the potencies of these Damage over Time effects, we can reduce the 'punishment' of a player who forgets to use them on time, or refreshes them early by accident. This would give the two healers (WHM and SCH) different gameplay, where WHM is more 'burst focused', and SCH is more 'sustained damage over time' focused. Then, we could make AST have a bigger focus on using its Cards more often, and SGE could be made to be very unique because of Kardia. For example, if some of the abilities were reworked to function like Soteria, wherein the effect of Kardia is buffed for a duration. But I would also like to see a fast paced gameplay for SGE, I look at Reaper and it's fast burst window and think SGE could have one too. Something like '1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - big finisher laser'. And of course this would synergise with the Kardia effects.

Effectively, I (and many others in EN I believe) would like to go back to Stormblood design for Healer jobs. Where we had 'smoothness' added like removing Cleric Stance, and making Healer Damage spells scale based on Mind stat instead of Intelligence, but we still had several ways to deal damage. WHM had Aero 3, Aero 2 and Stone. SCH had Bio 2, Miasma, Shadowflare, Miasma 2, Bane to help spread the Damage over Time effects, etc. AST had Cards with unique effects, and ways to manipulate them such as Royal Road to enhance the next card drawn, Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition to extend their durations, etc. Shadowbringers removed a lot of things in the pursuit of 'smoothness', and a lot of people in EN would say 'too much was removed'. It did some good things, like WHM Lilies were made much more functional in Shadowbringers, but for the most part, in my opinion Stormblood had the better design. I remember Yoshi-P saying in a PLL before Endwalker released that 'we will not go back to 3.0!' and I agree with that, but with so many being unsatisfied by 5.0 and 6.0 Healers, I think that we should look at 4.0 Healer and what made it work so well, and try to bring some of that back.

Thank you for reading

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Should MSQ dungeons be easy? I think it's fine because it's about progressing the story, however, we have Duty Support, should then everyone be punished with easy 1 button spam just because someone is scared? Or because they want to feel "relaxed"? Currently what's missing is the "middle ground", not even Savage is fun because it's still the 1 button spam 90% of the time.

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I think you are right about the 1-button spam punishment, the middle ground missing.
Those are words I had been thinking about but could not verbalize well, and it was great to be able to encounter this kind of response (different languages have different thought outputs, so it is interesting to notice new things).

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I understand JP playerbase thinks the way healers work now is fine, which is why I'm aware Yoshi-P will ignore this feedback -- because JP playerbase is fine with this. JP community thinks SE caters to Western audience when in fact this is not so -- my experiences playing Asian MMORPGs (especially Korean) has shown that developers have bias towards their own region, ignoring the Western audience completely (example: Aion, TERA, etc). Square Enix is not an exception, and will most likely, in majority of the time, listen only to Japanese playerbase.

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I knew EN players would say this.
But JP players often say that the development team only listens to requests from overseas and rarely receives FB from Japan.
Today alone, several of them said this lol.

There is a saying in Japan, "The grass looks beautiful green in the neighbor's house".
They also said that this is exactly the situation right now.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

I think you are right about the 1-button spam punishment, the middle ground missing.
Those are words I had been thinking about but could not verbalize well, and it was great to be able to encounter this kind of response (different languages have different thought outputs, so it is interesting to notice new things).

I knew EN players would say this.
But JP players often say that the development team only listens to requests from overseas and rarely receives FB from Japan.
Today alone, several of them said this lol.

There is a saying in Japan, "The grass looks beautiful green in the neighbor's house".
They also said that this is exactly the situation right now.

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Yes, "the grass is greener on the other side" is a common phrase even in English. I have my own experiences and I have observed how companies treat their Western audience, and majority of time (as mentioned earlier), a lot of feedback was always ignored.

Do JP feel satisfied with the upcoming BLM changes? Here on EN forums, plenty are disagreeing with it.

In a way if you look at benchmark feedback, had it not been for JP community complaining, SE most likely would have moved on with the bad, botched benchmark.

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There is a saying in Japan, "The grass looks beautiful green in the neighbor's house".
They also said that this is exactly the situation right now.

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Even in Japan the grass is greener on the other side.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

In a way if you look at benchmark feedback, had it not been for JP community complaining, SE most likely would have moved on with the bad, botched benchmark.

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The english forums had over 10 pages of nothing but feedback threads, they would not have just ignored it.

And most of the feedback in the japanese thread was not addressed by the new benchmark.

I really feel that if they just required more healing in the more casual content it would solve 99% of the complaints.

Besides just requiring more healing with enemy attacks that can't be dodged, there needs to be moments in trash packs and on bosses where tons of healing is required and healers can shine for their healing ability. Healing can't only be necessary when things go wrong. If they clearly telegraph when the healing is going to needed in moments like those then that would help reduce the "stress" they are so concerned about with healers.

I've been happy with my White Mage and don't think they need a huge course correct but I have a ton of ogcd healing abilities that I only use because I want to, not really because the situation warrants it.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

I knew EN players would say this.
But JP players often say that the development team only listens to requests from overseas and rarely receives FB from Japan.
Today alone, several of them said this lol.

There is a saying in Japan, "The grass looks beautiful green in the neighbor's house".
They also said that this is exactly the situation right now.

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That would imply the devs don't listen to any feedback from any Region. Must be all internal feedback between the Devs themselves then. I would think that a game based in Japan would prioritize the JP region the most.

Perhaps they only acknowledge feedback from Streamers, Influencers and large Content Creators.

Seems strange that both East and West would be out of the loop. I have to wonder what causes the Game to change in the way it has if NA, EUR and JP feel like their feedback isn't being acknowledged.

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Originally Posted by ShiCorvus

My friend, I don't think you should give credence to people who are willing to spout the most heinous stuff about a whole country if you want your strike keep whatever goodwill it has left.

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Credence was not my intention. Only curiosity. Don't even try to paint my contributions with anything other than face value. And what are you talking about "whatever goodwill it has left"? I do not operate outside the manifesto I have provided, meaning that I only have the best intentions in mind. Not only for the game's healers, but the game over all.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Over on JP, I found a post of a player Tonaka who wanted to convey something to foreigners but was not comfortable doing so with a translator, and I wanted to share their opinions. Tonaka, if you read this, I always like to see players come to interact with us even if through a translator, but there are a lot of people in North America who are really rude and disrespectful at times which isn't fair to foreigners trying their best to communicate with us. So I understand why you my be apprehensive to do so.

I'll include my understanding of their post and summarize it, and I'll add a link to their original post as well.

Their first question is do we want recovery from the tanks removed, or do we want to just reduce how often they can provide sustain?

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The effectiveness of Warrior's (and Paladin's) self-sustain needs to be reduced first and foremost. Bloodwhetting is a broken (overpowered) ability on AoE/Dungeon pulls. Both Paladin's Clemency and Dark Knight's The Blackest Night are good examples of how tank sustain should be done. Tank sustain should require a cost to use such as a resource (MP or Gauge), a gcd use, and/or a loss in DPS. Nascent Flash is an example of a bad skill design, same as Shake It Off which is bloated/power crept and doesn't need to have both shielding, and healing.

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Their second question is if we want DPS on healers to be more complicated, how complicated should it be? If we also want to heal with the GCD, how often should we be healing with the GCD? For example, would we want a healer with a DPS rotation like Warrior's where healing is added to the job? Or a DPS rotation like Summoner's where only healing is added to the job? Or would we want new healer job mechanics?

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It doesn't need to be complicated, it just needs to have some kind of decision making to use. None of us want tank's damage rotation of pressing 1-2-3. Healers are still casters, and yet black mage, red mage, and summoner have interesting and different game play with their spells. Give Healers a new 2.5 second cast spell that makes weaving oGCDs impossible, so they have to alternate between their 1.5s spell and 2.5s spell based on needs. Give them another Dot (damage over time) with a 15 or 18 second duration so they now have two DoTs to juggle. Give each healer an instant cast ability similar to Sage's Phlegma on a cooldown that they have to keep track of during combat. Such simple additions that would add so much to healer's stagnant gameplay.

I'll take new healer job mechanics too, but such a change would likely have to wait until 8.0.

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They also saw us referencing "5 years," so were we happy with healers in Stormblood? If so, what was good about healers in Stormblood?

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AST's old card system. Not this travesty of a card system they're pushing onto us with DawnTrail.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

I honestly wish I could read all the submissions, but I am afraid that my ability and time are severely limited.
My experience here has been very interesting and I would recommend it to other JP players, but with your enthusiasm, there are too many posts and it takes up other people's time...

I didn't expect to even experience Godwin's Law here lol.

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I'm very excited to go to the JP fourms after work and put my message out there. I would like some time to craft it and make sure there are no errors using a machine translation. The messages sure come fast and I'm getting very distracted!

It is an unfortunate occurrence in the US to associate anyone you dislike with fascism or their leaders.

I'm not a healer main, but I think it is worth repeating my thoughts about healer design. To me, healers as jobs in the world of xiv are supposed to be great mages -- or casters if you will, but who have access to a wider range regenerative, and defensive magics. However, healer jobs as they are currently designed, have basically specced all in on healing, and so if the need to heal is removed for whatever reason then all that is left is their offensive spells. Which as we know, are underdeveloped, and not exciting. WHM is designed to be a generic 'regen healer,' and not a 'White Mage,' etc. I think for healers to be better mages, they need to have a better balance of healing, and damage spells. That way, when things are running smoothly, and healing has been minimized or not needed, they still have a game to play. Healers deserve to have exciting gameplay, and not just with healing. But it is a balance, a healer needs to be able to stop what they are doing, and heal whether is be a scripted moment or when things are going horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Their first question is do we want recovery from the tanks removed, or do we want to just reduce how often they can provide sustain?

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Reducing the frequency would help because it used to be less frequent: 2 Clemencies on PLD (sacrificing damage/MP), 1 (Thrill)+Equilibrium per 60 seconds and at certain points a rare Bloodbath every 90s.

But the potency and amount of abilities and traits is also an issue. A regen on "Equilibrium". A regen on "Shake It Off". "Bloodwhetting" every 25, with a shield, multiple strong heals, and significant damage reduction. The heal being added to "Vengeance".

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Their second question is if we want DPS on healers to be more complicated, how complicated should it be?

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AST right now seems decent but not as smooth as it could be or has been in the past due to getting "Macrocosmos" and "Astrodyne" to try and press along with everything else, so trying to burst it all while dealing with mechanics can get a bit excessive. The 5.0 version was good in terms of abilities to press and very challenging because of the frequency of cards to play.

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If we also want to heal with the GCD, how often should we be healing with the GCD?

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Needing to do this during enemy packs is good. I want to provide the last pull of "Amaurot" as an example. This is a pull that made me use all my abilities as a SCH and even use my GCDs. At least it did in the previous expansion.

Many of the pulls in Dohn Mheg are good as well.

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would we want a healer with a DPS rotation like Warrior's where healing is added to the job?

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A melee healer has always been an interesting idea. It's effectively been implemented in the form of WAR and PLD, except they don't have the classification of a healer.

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what was good about healers in Stormblood?

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Healers, on average, had multiple DoTs to manage instead of just 1, while AST had cards. Tanks had less sustain and enemies dealt more damage, so almost all of the dungeons required a healer, including the max level ones. I remember large pulls in most of these dungeons that I could not survive as a tank without the healer.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But I also don't want the healers to all feel the same either. As you say, Black Mage, Summoner, and Red Mage are different. The healers should be too.

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I agree with that, but such a change would likely require tearing out the entire foundation and rebuilding each healer from the ground up. Building four new gameplay systems revolving around job mechanics/gauges will take time that I don't think will happen until at least 8.0 with this job design team. Adding a new 2.5s cast spell, a new 15-18 second dot, and a new instant ability with a cooldown could be done in a month or two which would take some of the sting off in DawnTrail from having to wait until then.

If I had to give new mechanics to each healer, I would have to say it would be something to the effect of.

WHM would have to alternate between Earth and Water, while building into light (black mage like).

Scholar would have a "Offensive command" rotation and a "Defensive command" rotation, using 3 abilities, depending on the order how they're cast. 1-2-3 would be offensive (damage increase for Sch), 3-2-1 defensive (self shielding and healing increase for sch).

Astrologian would have a combo system. Ast would accumulate "stars" by casting 1.5s Malefic and two stars for casting 2.5s Malefic which they can then spend these "stars" on different abilities. (5 stars to summon Meteor, hah.)

Sage would be an "offshoot" of Red Mage's gameplay. Healing through Kardia will build to and unlock their "melee" combo which will in turn help them build Addersting.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Their first question is do we want recovery from the tanks removed, or do we want to just reduce how often they can provide sustain?

Their second question is if we want DPS on healers to be more complicated, how complicated should it be? If we also want to heal with the GCD, how often should we be healing with the GCD? For example, would we want a healer with a DPS rotation like Warrior's where healing is added to the job? Or a DPS rotation like Summoner's where only healing is added to the job? Or would we want new healer job mechanics?

They also saw us referencing "5 years," so were we happy with healers in Stormblood? If so, what was good about healers in Stormblood?

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First: I would not want to see the recovery 'removed', as now that players have experienced what gameplay is like 'with' the tool, removing it will just feel bad. I would rather see the tools be reduced in power using the concept of 'opportunity cost'. As others have mentioned, Clemency for PLD is a very strong healing tool, but its power is kept in check because it costs MP and is a Spell (on the GCD), whereas Nascent Flash is 'OP' not just because it can heal once-per-enemy-hit, but because it has no associated 'opportunity cost', it is an Ability (oGCD), just 25s CD, and doesn't cost any MP or Gauge. Additionally, back in Shadowbringers, Nascent Flash healed based on the damage dealt, not a flat amount per hit, and this meant that the incoming healing was very dependent on using good burst abilities while Nascent Flash was active. I would like to see Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting go back to using this design again, so that pressing the simplest AOE skill (Overpower) doesn't result in many thousands of HP healed for free.

Second: I would like to see our rotations be slightly improved in variety, but nothing too crazy. I would look at the tanks such as WAR as a good example of how our rotations should look as a healer. WAR has 2 Abilities it can weave in quite often (Upheaval, Onslaught), a Gauge to build up and spend on powerful moves (FellCleave), buttons to instantly give Gauge and to make Gauge costs 0 for a time (Infuriate/Inner Release). A simple Builder/Spender gameplay loop on one of the healers would go a long way to alleviating the 'tedium' of pressing the same attack spell. Additionally, I would look at Stormblood healers for some inspiration. Stormblood was, in my opinion, a good middle ground between the complexity of Heavesnward and the over-simplification of Shadowbringers.

Third: As others have mentioned, Stormblood Healers were a sort of 'happy medium'. AST had many tools to interact with its cards, such as sacrificing one to empower the next, holding one until later, extending their durations with Celestial Opposition. Scholar had many Damage over Time effects to apply to the enemy, and a way to easily spread them in a dungeon (Bane), resulting in a very different gameplay feel. And White Mage was experimenting with the idea of Cooldown Reduction via its Lilies. While the system ended up being a failure, the concept had some potential, if the Cooldown Reduction effects had been guaranteed. Regardless, the Shadowbringers Lily rework for WHM was universally accepted to be a 'massive improvement', and we should keep the aspects of Shadowbringers/Endwalker design that work well, not just roll everything back to Stormblood exactly as it was.

One thing I would want to say is that Damage isn't random at all. I could forgive the simplistic tools and healing if there was any variance or randomness but there is not.

From the forbidden site, I decided to look at some stuff from p11s. There is only one time the boss uses Blinding Light after Dark and Light. In all of those logs I went through, blinding light always did about 51k to me when I was a healer. On one time, it did 35k, so I went into looking what I and there was a 10 percent and a shield on me when I took it. If you remove those mits and shields, it came back to 51k. Now it should be mention that of course these are rounded from the forbidden and it's just one move from one fight but I think that always bares in mind in the 17 times I cleared the fight and of the 14 I did as healer, the damage of Blinding Light always was 51k or close to it before mitigations and shields were taken into account.

I general I think tanks should have some ogcd/inherent selfhealing. But overall that should never rival what healers can do. It should never be enough to handle tank busters. It should never be (even close to) enough to do the biggest pulls in dungeons. It is fine if tanks can handle stuff like selfhealing the damage from auto attacks from bosses.

I'd prefer if none of the tank heals were completely removed. But healing potencies should be lowered a lot mostly on PLD and WAR but also GNB and probably DRK, and no more heals per target hit, and no more OGCD teamheals. If they want to give tanks stronger (still lower potency then heals from healers) emergency (self)heals, those should be GCD.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

what if we just nerfed bloodwhetting lol

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Wait until someone realize how much self-sustain & mit a lv90 PLD has

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Originally Posted by JanineBeckinsale

Wait until someone realize how much self-sustain & mit a lv90 PLD has

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It's a transversal problem to the role.
Honestly, to the game. XIV is becoming obsessed with removing job fail states, and fail states in "casual" content, and then slamming a myriad of body checks and instant wipes in high-end content (Hello Near/Far World instantly exploding instead of just giving you DD that forces enrage so you can at least practice the phase is downright criminal design, imho).
This all compounds to reduce the impact healers have. In A6S you could literally save pulls on Brawler if your party messed the orbs up as SCH/WHM if you were on top of your healing...

Ever since Cleric Stance was removed it has felt like the FFXIV team has been handholding healers and afraid to let WoL choose between healing and DPS actions. I often wonder if the team is too afraid that if a party wipes due to a healer being too aggressive with DPS that it would lead to a negative experience and that they are trying to "protect" healers by making their job "easy."

I wish the team would reintroduce actions that would allow healers decide how they balance their time between healing and DPS. In practice a good party shouldn't need a ton of healing and the healer should be able to participate in DPS without becoming bored with spamming a single action (*GLARE*) or two (*DIA*).

As a WHM main, I was excited when they introduced the lily system, since it added extra resource management to healing, and had been hoping for years that they would finally allow us to balance healing and DPS options... yet Dawntrail has once again become disappointing. We were given a "safe" DPS option to make us happy while still having zero trust in healers...

I wished the FFXIV team would consider skills like the ones below I mocked up that allow healers to balance healing and DPS (not just make DPS spam busy work). Skills like these allow new players to focus on healing while experience healers have the option to sacrifice resources ususally needed for healing to be spent on DPS during down times and adjust their play style to their skill levels.

https://i.ibb.co/T0gs3Pw/afflatus-grief.png https://i.ibb.co/jvbQ620/afflatus-sorrow.png
Note: Images are just concepts. The potency, level, and specifics aren't important.

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Originally Posted by Nyome

I wished the FFXIV team would consider skills like the ones below I mocked up that allow healers to balance healing and DPS (not just make DPS spam busy work). Skills like these allow new players to focus on healing while experience healers have the option to sacrifice resources ususally needed for healing to be spent on DPS during down times and adjust their play style to their skill levels.

https://i.ibb.co/T0gs3Pw/afflatus-grief.png https://i.ibb.co/jvbQ620/afflatus-sorrow.png
Note: Images are just concepts. The potency, level, and specifics aren't important.

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It's part of why Energy Drain is so important to SCH despite being 100 potency while Broil approaches 300, actions like this serve to vent excess heals instead of just throwing them out because they're free.

Right now it would just mean we want to use the lily solely for damage but coupled with changes to tank sustain and the frequency of damage it can become something you actually want to think about and encourage you to use your whole kit.

Strongly disagree on the blood lilly suggestions. The whole idea about the blood lilly is that is makes lilly heals dps neutral. Basically giving lilly heals the same function as ogcd heals, without making them ogcd. Adding that mechanics into an attack spell gives lilly heals an opportunity costs like any other gcd. And then they'd have to nerf WHM damage to keep its dps in line with other healers, and it once again lacks "ogcd" healing compared to other healers.

Yeah paladin and warrior have absolutely 0 issue staying alive in mob pulls, which mean they have 0 issue staying alive in bosses. Gunbreaker's a little harder to self heal through mob pulls, but with a bit of luck and good enough dps, it's doable. When it comes to staying alive in bosses, again, gunbreaker's a little harder to do so... but only a little. I remember playing gunbreaker in the grand cosmos, final boss. The healer and both dps die and the boss still has a good chunk of health left, probably about 40 or 50%. It was difficult, it was tedious, but I brought the boss all the way down and kept myself decently healthy the entire time. So dark knight's definitely the least survivable tank but I'm sure with the right people it, too, could replicate what the other 3 can do.