If you cannot find any fun jobs to play in the game I don't know what to tell you. I think that they are all fun in their own way and enjoying playing all. I feel bad that you are not happy with the game I am loving it and loving my Bard.
Bard - they broke my job
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08-25-2015, 01:50 PMMikedizzy
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08-25-2015, 05:05 PMAlkelI did many test on dummy and A1S with both BRD and MCH, i even got my first A1S down on MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
When the RNG gods are against you, it really hurt. The opposite is also true: when the RNG gods are with you, its easy to out DPS a BRD. Thats why i consider MCH DPS less consistent than BRD.
But with today patch, 15 sec reload will counter the bad RNG.
The only thing MCH could need now is a tiny boost to hypercharge, so it can be a true foe counterpart.
Anyway, im sad to see nothing is done about clunky BRD gameplay >< -
08-26-2015, 01:28 AMWarlyx
reload in 15s CD is a god send for MCH....if only we could get iron jaws instant cast :(
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08-26-2015, 01:35 AMPernix
Okay, so you're "putting your two cents" as a brand new 60 BRD, I'll put in mine.
BRD is perfectly fine, they didn't "ruin" the class, they fixed it, and balanced it to actually fill its DPS role.
Mobility? get feint, stutter-step, cancel your damn casts if that's what it takes.
It adds a risk to your doing damage, you can't just run around like an idiot shooting arrows left and right.
I raid perfectly fine, and while WM is a tad clunky, it is what BRD NEEDED mechanically and thematically.
Your mobility, your class identity, they're all there, you just have to work for them
now
Edit: I am i190 and can easily keep up, if not surpass people around my ilvl, all while dodging and feeling like a ranged DPS. -
08-26-2015, 01:54 AMaabeYeah pretty much this is how I've been thinking since EA, but unfortunately I never realized that the drawing factor and the part of BRD that made it 'unique' to so many people was being able to pull 100% of their DPS potential while jumping around non-stop like they forgot to take their ritalinQuote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
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08-26-2015, 01:58 AMLyahaShame you accept 'clunky' gameplay, I for one don't, not when the class worked perfectly fine without the cast times and we could compensate for our lesser damage output by making use of movement. But SE just keeps chugging along, not caring, not even trying to establish dialog with the community to gather feedback on the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
Glad to see you enjoying the job, but for me they threw away a job design that I really liked and just copy and pasted machinists 50-60 design over it. Shame we can't have two really different jobs. -
08-26-2015, 02:07 AMPernixI'm not "accepting" clunky game play, the fact that you're twisting my words shows me you really have no clue what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyaha
It's "a tad" clunky, it's more of a visual and feel issue than it is an actual problem. It's not mechanical, it's aesthetic. Also, you say we made up for damage by using movement, newsbreak sweetheart, movement didn't make up for our damage before, we were doing a little above half of other DPS's damage, that gap is now down to a 200 damage difference on a 1.3k scale. They can't take community feedback because of people like you who just want THEIR job to be the best. Like I said, they didn't break BRD they gave it what it needed, You're not even 60, what argument do you possibly have? Oh and by the way: they didn't "copy paste" MCH onto BRD, it was quite the opposite. MCH is the one without a class identity. They're just a more variable version of BRD. -
08-26-2015, 02:12 AMAiseliaThey fixed it by adding a downside to using an ability that leaves you at the same relative damage you were at before?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
Except that's all still less mobile than before. When people talk about losing mobility, they're not claiming that they're not able to cancel casts.Quote:
Mobility? get feint, stutter-step, cancel your damn casts
Really? The 100% uptime while being fully mobile is still there?Quote:
Your mobility, your class identity, they're all there
Oh wait, are you going to suggest turning off WM even though that's like telling a DRG to just skip Heavy Thrust if they're having problems keeping BOTD up?
And I've grouped with i190s that can't keep up with my i179 DRG or i172 SMN.Quote:
I am i190 and can easily keep up, if not surpass people around my ilvl
What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. Relative skill will always skew what it looks like a class can do. -
08-26-2015, 02:23 AMPernixRelatively damage? Do your math: 380-400/600 versus 1.1k/1.3k, that's not the same relative damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Next.
It's less mobile while having more damage. Your class identity isn't being hyper mobile and spamming arrows like a moron. Your identity is being a ranged DPs who has more opportunities for mobility while having support. You have half the cast times of a BLM, allowing you a myriad of possibilities for movement. You're still plenty mobile, and of course it's not 100% mobility, it's not supposed to be. That's not what a ranged DPS is, in any game, in real life, thematically, mechanically.=, what have you. Hyper mobility and damage do not mix. Never did I suggest taking WM, because I don't do that. So what I'm hearing from you with that last bit of your response is they raised the skill floor for BRD and you don't like it. Got it. I know what I can do, and what I can do compared to others with my same skill level and gear, that's not relative skill. -
08-26-2015, 02:30 AMRiceisNiceQuote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
Clash of opinions and misconceptions from both sides. I can still play bard well, doesn't change the fact I do not like how it plays with cast times. For me it's mechanical, espesically as someone who catches their GCD and hit skills as they come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
The way it is right now, both classes are closely identical to each other in gameplay because of WM/GB being functionally the same. Only MCH doesn't frustrate me at times with trying to get double oGCDs in one weaponskill because of multi-dot procs.
Oh and for the record, they initially showcased machinist as the ranged class that could "stand still to do more damage". Until job trailers, there was no mention on 2.0 classes, until said trailer which showcased Wanderer's Minuet. That already raised questions with how it interacted with barrage (since it disables auto attacks), and some other questions that were not brought up until implimentation (how cast times affects bard's tool kit). Granted this is all coming from afull time bard main back in 2.0. I did not like the direction that bard was taken, or really the current state of BRD/MCH compared to each other due to the function of GB/WM being given to both of them. -
08-26-2015, 02:35 AMAiseliaI'm not going to link it because of various people getting things deleted for showing parses, but I just googled 2.55 Bard DPS and have seen several posts and videos of people pulling over 500 DPS pre-HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
If you only ever hit 400, apparently you weren't doing that great. "Next."
No, that's your opinion on what the identity is.Quote:
Your identity is
Then clearly it was bugged for 2 years.Quote:
it's not supposed to be.
Wrong again. If you haven't played every game, you shouldn't say what it isn't in any game.Quote:
That's not what a ranged DPS is, in any game
Anyone who's read my posts before knows that I don't agree they made it any harder. I've said many, many times that they've made the class easier.Quote:
they raised the skill floor for BRD
IJ makes TP management and dot upkeep way easier. The cast time forcing a limit on how many OGCDs you can use makes it easier. Barrage simply being "next weaponskill" makes it easier because you only have to know "Use it before Empy" and not have to pay attention to your auto attacks to maximize it.
Apparently not if you think Bards capped at 400 DPS pre-HW.Quote:
I know what I can do
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08-26-2015, 03:03 AMkalasnikov
Gotta love these alexander normal geared minuet defenders "keeping up" their dps on casual raids.
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08-26-2015, 03:04 AMLyahaNot twisting anything, you said it was clunky, I'm not 60 because I didn't find the job enjoyable anymore, one extra skill won't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
I never asked the job to be the best, I want it to be enjoyable.
SE never even tried to communicate with us, most of their support don't even speak English, at most we get snippets of Japanese translated support. -
08-26-2015, 03:40 AMDuelleThis seems to sadly be the case. Though I chalk it up to the devs wanting to keep everything in HW secret up until the last minute. Usually when devs do that, it tells me they know something is gonna piss people off and would rather it happen after they've gotten into the expansion rather than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyaha
As I've said, talking about it beforehand would have saved everyone a headache. Having their change in design philosophy be a bit more thorough would have helped (again, I'd have no problems with it if they had changed the job from the ground up). It would have also given them a chance to react to feedback. It's still not going to make everyone happy, but you wouldn't have this split in the BRD community while creating this worry for the other jobs, because any of us (tank, heals and DPS alike) might end up getting the bard treatment without notice.
Sure, it's their game and they can do what they want with it, but making changes for the sake of making changes isn't justifiable by any means. -
08-26-2015, 03:58 AMRikkustrifewhat does hyper mobility mean? Shooting arrows while running seems like pretty average mobility, especially for someone who uses a bow as often as we have, archers can run and shoot in real life, and there are plenty of games where you can move and attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
Also thematically we are an archer that plays songs , and it makes no sense to have a delayed attack for someone who is at skilled as archery as we are.
Paladins, Warriors and scholars could reach 400 dps in 2.0, so saying bards could only do that much is ridiculous, people seem to think we were much lower than the other dps, when we were only slightly lower. -
08-26-2015, 04:20 AMSlyRoyaleActually, there were BRDs who broke 500+ DPS on pre-Echo T13 in continuous parses. It was doable back then, provided that the only time people needed songs was during divebombs and Teraflare. Aside from that, I agree with you that BRD isn't about running around firing arrows with abandon. We're a ranged DPS that can provide support with our songs, be it lowering the magical resistance of our foes, or rejuvenating the resources of our casters and physical hitters (or prevent a debilitating ailment being inflicted on one of them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernix
First off, your opinion doesn't match SE's opinion apparently. Even in the most movement-intensive fights, you're going to have plenty of moments where you can stay still (and for party coordination, this is further emphasized to bait out certain attacks and make them easier to avoid like the Oppressor's Resin Bombs and Photon Spasers in A1S). Even then, we're still far more mobile than any true caster. Second, watching for Bloodletter resets and your auto attacks isn't any harder than using Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow. It just requires awareness, and nothing more. In fact, watching for auto-attacks is still present as long as you're stance dancing or have to turn off WM for a bit due to a movement-intensive part of a fight (i.e. Ravana's orbs, or the Living Liquid's Ferrofluid).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
If anything, BRD is a bit clunky and could do with a bigger library of songs to support the party, but it's still in a good place. Could things be done to make it more fluid? Definitely. As of now, though, there isn't much to complain about since the issues are manageable. -
08-26-2015, 05:21 AMGaignen
There's a number of reasons I dislike 3.x BRD:
-oGCD weaving clunky.
-BL animation eats GCD time.
-Lost unique ability to be reactive for movement (we now have to pre-plan like casters).
-With 100% uptime Requiem (1 min each 3.5 with MP use/regen) we give casters +6% DPS overall, needs 2 casters to do more than break party DPS even.
-The above is useless in some parties/solo.
-All our support costs DPS (singing time or 15% penalties). Our only other excuse for having lower DPS (mobility) is now reduced to less than SMN.
-Mage type casters get a flat Rear acc cap, not us.
-Mage hits ignore parry, not ours.
-Ravana's "Seeing~" mechanics.
But more importantly to me is that I no longer have fun playing the job, it's now a caster. I hate playing caster DPS jobs. For me SE have broken the job. Don't try to tell me to gitgud, that spits in the face of the fact that my enjoyment of an entertainment source that I pay for has been ruined, and is just plain rude. -
08-26-2015, 05:23 AMAiseliaNot even going to bother with you. Don't need this thread getting purged too.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
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08-26-2015, 06:35 AMSlyRoyaleLegit issue, but manageable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Due to the change of play style introduced in 3.0, clipping into your GCD with Bloodletter is oddly ideal due to it being instant cast for the same amount of potency, on top of our two main DoTs having a 50% chance of resetting its recast whenever they tick for critical damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
I would argue that this isn't much of an issue since we can still react better to AoEs than true casters can. In fact, all jobs are no strangers to pre-planning for AoEs. Melees have to watch out for them while landing their positionals, and tanks also have to hold the targets in certain spots--at least have them face away from the party and make it easier for the aforementioned melee jobs to do high damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Foe Requiem is still an increase of DPS, especially when you have your healers assisting with it too. Even if the only caster in your party is a healer, Foe Requiem can still help out. It even boosts the damage of NIN's elemental Ninjutsu and DRK's spells, albeit slightly due to the frequency of when they're used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Which is why you try to play these songs during downtime or in uptime where it won't have a major impact on your DPS when it matters. Even then, WM grants us a 30% damage boost so playing Ballad or Paeon only reduces the bonus to 15%. This is far better than doing -20% of our DPS back before the stance was added.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
This is because casters deal magical damage where BRDs deal physical. It's not an issue in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Again, a non-issue. Fights like Ravana are scripted, making it easy to know when he'll perform these moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
It is a shame that you do not enjoy the job anymore. Although, bear in mind that BRD is not a true caster and still retains advantages over true caster jobs. We are still more mobile than casters and we bring utility most jobs don't have in their toolkit. I won't tell you to git gud as it'd just lead to senseless namecalling and whatnot, but I will say that some of the points you brought up aren't major issues aside from the clunkiness, which is manageable.
My points still stand. Even the most movement-intensive fights do not demand constant movement for an extended period of time, and if they do it's usually during downtime or doesn't last that long anyway. The clunkiness is one thing, but paying attention to Bloodletter and auto-attacks isn't what I would call more "difficult" compared to the Wanderer's Minuet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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08-26-2015, 06:48 AMAiseliaAnd I never said that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
And that's exactly why I'm not going to get into an argument with you. -
08-26-2015, 12:21 PMseorin1) That's not how math works. 15% is still 15%. If you want to be pedantic, we deal 10.5% more damage with both ballad and WM up compared to using neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
2) The DPS gap between BRD and other classes is the same as it was at 50 without WM. It's not a buff, it's an added mechanic we have to deal with to be as good as before. Without it we're worse than a BLM who ignores Enochian.
In short, BRD are giving up more than ever and receiving nothing in return. That's an issue even beside the more salient point that a lot of BRD players don't enjoy dealing with cast bars, and that's why they played BRD in the first place. -
08-26-2015, 01:37 PMSlyRoyaleHrm, a little lower than I thought it would be but it's still an increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by seorin
The majority of the DPS jobs--if not all of them--have gimmicks added to them, too. DRG has Blood of the Dragon and Wheel/Claw, SMN has Dreadwyrm Trance, BLM has Enochain like you mentioned, and MCH has Gauss Barrel. As long as we make proper use of them, we should be where we were before.Quote:
Originally Posted by seorin
They aren't giving up that much, frankly speaking. Sure, the clunkiness takes some getting used to, but it is adaptable and we'll have to bear with it until SE does something about it. The amount of damage we do is still decent. I wouldn't be surprised if there are BRDs who are breaking 1k+ now in any of the Alexander Savage fights with the current gear available. As for the people who played BRDs so they don't have to deal with cast bars, they still had to play songs during fights, and the cast bars we have now are very manageable. I just feel that people are making mountains out of molehills here.Quote:
Originally Posted by seorin
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08-26-2015, 01:52 PMRiceisNiceThe additions that the classes have gotten either add onto what they already do (such as a 4th combo extension, enochian or stacks that build off from using your abilities) or filling in their short comings (monk's downtimes, healer and tank versatility). Bard, you really can't say something like WM was designed with 2.0 in mind when you're looking at their oGCD resets and even down to their animations.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
Not to mention their skill is functionally the same as machinist, which really feels like a cop out since the latter was designed with it in mind. Having both at 60, they share nearly identical concepts of gameplay because of WM/GB being functionally the same; I feel that as a machinist, I'm changing lanes on the highway, whereas bard I'm going on a highway that has speedbumps. Like at that point, I'm not even playing machinist because of aesthetics (which was primarily why I wanted to switch when they were announced), but the fact that the two play similar to each other, but one of the two doesn't involve me having hiccups with my skill execution because of procs or haphazardly added mechanics that don't mesh. -
08-26-2015, 09:33 PMtwoheadedenby
Yeah, it's abundantly clear that WM is a Machinist mechanic that was retrofitted onto Bard far too late in the game. The synergy between MCH's procs/ammo loading and Gauss Barrel works wonderfully, and MCH attack animations are just a short burst by default to account for the cast bars without clipping half the animation off when you move to the next ability. If people want to trade mobility and fluidity for DPS that's fine, but they should be playing MCH if that's the case, rather than forcing Bards who can't or don't want to play casters to do so.
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08-27-2015, 04:23 AMSacerdos
How would people feel if Bard got Sniper Training from Marksman Hunters in WoW?
All your casts would be instant, but you only get WM's damage buff if you stand still for 3s and it falls off after 6s if you move and don't refresh it by standing still for 3s again. -
08-27-2015, 04:37 AMGreywolfamakirSniper Training from MM Hunter in WOW is what SE should do by far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
+1. -
08-27-2015, 04:37 AMKumori_Kumo... That sounds like the way it should've worked in the first place, to be honest!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
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08-27-2015, 08:08 AMWarlyxthat would be a pain in the rear , just another buff to keep track of....plus rendering the whole gameplay based around itQuote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
if the buff worked more like if u arent moving u do 20% more dmg , if u are moving u lose that dmg , having to stand still for 3s everytime u move...ugh... just try it now and u will see...
Never reap : 1 boss , if u need to move totems , 2nd boss , move outside areas and back again to see the boss , 3 boss tornado everywhere!
and where it really matters,
A1S u need to move a lot , As2 not bad , As3 wont see the buff ever , AS4 no clue but guess is a heavy movement fight too. -
08-27-2015, 09:31 AMKaelDrakkalQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
The way you describe these fights makes it sound like blm would never even get a shot off. There is a lot more time to stand and take shots than you're describing. -
08-27-2015, 02:56 PMDuelleI could go for this, though this would involve the acquisition of a trait that does this at lv52 instead of an ability button. I'm fine with it but I don't know if the devs would go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
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08-27-2015, 03:44 PMtwoheadedenbyThis is a MUCH better solution to exactly the same gameplay mechanic, and the only difficulty is that it would likely have to be implemented as a Trait rather than an Ability like others have said. If SE implemented something like this I'd be jumping for joy to play Bard again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
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08-27-2015, 10:09 PMGaignenBLM and SMN have on-demand options to move and cast at the drop of a hat. BRD have 2 options for on-demand reactive movement: pray for straighter shot, or -30% DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
Ravana's Seeing~ mechanics may timeable, but the location is reaction, so no, it's not a nonissue.
Utility most jobs don't bring?
NIN 10% PARTY damage up 1/min (a bigger party DPS increase over time than Requiem), TP regen, no cost to self.
DRG piercing resistance debuff, crit rate enhance to party, no cost to self, king of oGCD stuns
BLM Can crossclass Eye for an Eye at no cost to self, Apocatastasis, no cost etc...
SMN E4E, supervirus, also combat raise
MNK Int and bashing debuff, party wide healing increase
NO job in FFXIV doesn't have utility. BRD and MCH are the only ones who pay for it just because it exists. -
08-27-2015, 10:20 PMGreywolfamakir-30% DPS? WM off bring You auto attacks, and if You dont refresh DoT out of WM they are gonna keep damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
You need a bit more maths here.
20%? Trick attack bring +10% vulnerability...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
Foe Requiem bring +10% magic damage and +20% with Battle Voice up.
BRD and MCH are the only ones who can refresh TP or MP. DRG/MNK/NIN out of TP do 0 DPS. Healers out of MP can't heal...It's a bit better support than "Trick Attack" or "Battle Litany"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
However, if BRD/MCH has less damage by default, Why is TP/MP regen punish with damage reduction for BRD/MCH? It's redundant and I don't agree with this. -
08-27-2015, 11:13 PMRiceisNiceThe other end is having WM give different boosts compared to GB (or vice versa). Having it do something like lowering GCD and TP costs along with the cast times (without the damage boost) would go a long way t differentiate the pacing and groundwork of BRD compared to MCH. Like I've mentioned previously, I feel like it's a hack-job and wasted potential for both jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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08-27-2015, 11:49 PMGaignenI simplified it a little, but either way, our options are RNG or a slight decrease in DPS. The point stands, casters get Swiftcast, they can save it for needed timings. Can't save a Straighter Shot. EDIT: If they maybe changed Warden's Paean (useless) into a BRD-Swiftcast? That might help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
The 20% was a typo, edited. Still, 10% vuln 1/6th of the time > slightly more than 10% to less than half the pDPS 1/3rd of the time (only slightly more than 10%, because BV can't always be on, around 12.5%).
And as you say we already pay for our other support with DPS decrease built into the abilities. Since 3.0 hit there is no reason for us to have less DPS than a BLM against a striking dummy. Making us hit as hard when we don't have to support isn't going to make us any more necessary than we already are, just make it easier if DF throws us into a 4 BRD A1. -
08-28-2015, 12:35 AMAiseliaNope. AST can do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
NIN can also refresh TP, if only to one person. And all healers have some sort of MP regeneration skill.
Also:
Quote:
DRG/MNK/NIN out of TP do 0 DPS.
They can still auto attack without TP, so it's not 0. :PQuote:
WM off bring You auto attacks
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08-28-2015, 12:54 AMGreywolfamakirAST MP/TP regen is random...it's not reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
NIN TP regen is pretty low and 3 min CD.
The only one TP/MP regen solid and reliable is from MCH/BRD. -
08-28-2015, 12:57 AMyamochanQuote:
Originally Posted by Sacerdos
that solution was already posted quite often once by myself actually but it get ignored simply for the reason that it got WoW in it wich is a damn shame because this method would be the best thing they could to make the bard fun again because dont get me wrong its dmg is ok (it could be a bit more but hey dont reach for stars right) but the playstyle is so damn bad especially on the europe servers -
08-28-2015, 01:31 AMxyaiesurprised how often i see this. has less movement time in their normal rotation than us, but the "on demand" move option is scathe, 100 potency. our on demand move option is feint, 120 potency. if we count thundercloud or fire starter procs we'd have to count our straighter shot procsQuote:
Originally Posted by Gaignen
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08-28-2015, 01:42 AMMaero
Obviously some of you have never actually played blm....