Melee roles are being gimped in this game

I'm a ranged class (BRD) and I agree with the autor of the thread. I want more balance between dps.

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Originally Posted by Emil_no7

I'm a ranged class (BRD) and I agree with the autor of the thread. I want more balance between dps.

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You'll see a significant reason to this once you start doing the hard level 50 content.

DRG here, the problem comes down to a simple equation of risk vs. reward. Melee DPS are have higher risk in combat, and thus, should have higher reward. I see two possible solutions to this issue:
1. Greatly increase melee damage output (currently I can spam skills till the cows come home and never steal hate).
2. Greatly decrease ranged damage output (currently they have little risk with equal reward to melee).

The problem is not with positioning, it is not with support abilities, it is simply DPS. Why bring a risky DPS vs a safe DPS if they both do the same damage (and the less risky DPS has support abilities as well)?

Additionally, melee LB are not required for most fights. Contrarily, support / healer LBs are preferred in most end-game fights.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

DRG here, the problem comes down to a simple equation of risk vs. reward. Melee DPS are have higher risk in combat, and thus, should have higher reward. I see two possible solutions to this issue:
1. Greatly increase melee damage output (currently I can spam skills till the cows come home and never steal hate).
2. Greatly decrease ranged damage output (currently they have little risk with equal reward to melee).

The problem is not with positioning, it is not with support abilities, it is simply DPS. Why bring a risky DPS vs a safe DPS if they both do the same damage (and the less risky DPS has support abilities as well)?

Additionally, melee LB are not required for most fights. Contrarily, support / healer LBs are preferred in most end-game fights.

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Exactly this. I'd love to see an increase in melee damage on some parts so that there's a reason for them to be in a group just as much as a ranged dps right now.

do the increase of the melee damage or the reduction of the ranged damage is the solution?
i'm not sure... maybe, give more tool to make melee more rewarding, giving them stuff that only them can do. more dot? we are not arcanist! more damage? will lead to a trouble of balance in the whole game.

i dunno... i really don't know... but they need to do something!!!

Even though I agree to the OP to a certain extent, as far as monk and dragoon balance in dps. On the other hand I also feel that "DPS METERS" ruin games. One of the main reasons why I stopped playing WoW was because the whole entire community loved to measure each others DPS penis and then discourage the ones that had low DPS from trying to play the boss. The truth is that in some boss fights the mechanics will be an advantage to ranged dps and some it will be an advantage to melee dps. Ranged dps will almost always do more dps but your end goal is the same, why would you get mad at the game/class that is going to eventually help you kill the raid boss. You did your part as well, you were there with the BLM and the BRD and it took all of you together as a team to take the boss down. IMHO turn off your DPS meters and this problem would of never existed to begin with, the experience would of been way better and way more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Techro

Even though I agree to the OP to a certain extent, as far as monk and dragoon balance in dps. On the other hand I also feel that "DPS METERS" ruin games. One of the main reasons why I stopped playing WoW was because the whole entire community loved to measure each others DPS penis and then discourage the ones that had low DPS from trying to play the boss. The truth is that in some boss fights the mechanics will be an advantage to ranged dps and some it will be an advantage to melee dps. Ranged dps will almost always do more dps but your end goal is the same, why would you get mad at the game/class that is going to eventually help you kill the raid boss.

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The whole reason for this thread is that it shouldn't be fair that a ranged class can out damage a melee while putting a lot less effort into it. Melee dps rotations are a lot more complicated to execute than ranged ones, and yet still... you end up with less overall dps and damage dealt.

personally i think that it need to be like this.

melee do a lot of damage, but can die more easily since they are a close of the fight
ranged do less damage, but are more safer since they are at distance of the fight.

without talk that often the ranged can heal, rez, control,.... thing that a melee can't do.

high risk = high reward, low risk = low reward.
but the problem is here... is not the case... and that why people have made this thread.

The one thing I really don't get is why melee attack don't fire as soon as you click them, for example you click an attack (you even see it turn dark and start the CD effect), the mob move around the same time and get out of range, the attack is cancel, you then have to run after the enemy, often to no effect. This is awful in FATE where you can hardly score any hit on the enemy, without even getting to the fact that you have to run around and have to wait a really long time for any real AoE attack.

Other problem is you can't really do your full rotation when soloing, I can't consistently get behind/flank an enemy. So for 95% of the time I've played my rotation was 1-2-1-2-1-2, and just now it's been upgraded to 1-2-3-1-2-3, so much fun.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

personally i think that it need to be like this.

melee do a lot of damage, but can die more easily since they are a close of the fight
ranged do less damage, but are more safer since they are at distance of the fight.

without talk that often the ranged can heal, rez, control,.... thing that a melee can't do.

high risk = high reward, low risk = low reward.
but the problem is here... is not the case... and that why people have made this thread.

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so going as melee means wiping the first trys , after u have learned the pattern u wipe the floor with the boss.

Rdps become redudant after u have learned the boss strat because they do less dps.

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Originally Posted by meiam

Other problem is you can't really do your full rotation when soloing, I can't consistently get behind/flank an enemy. So for 95% of the time I've played my rotation was 1-2-1-2-1-2, and just now it's been upgraded to 1-2-3-1-2-3, so much fun.

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You can usually start off your encounter by flanking the enemy to get your damage bonus then stun with leg sweep if need be to reposition yourself. Once you get Spineshatter Dive, you can use that to stun and reposition yourself as well.

As for increasing damage of melee DPS, I think that would be the wrong way to go, not because it's a bad idea, but because it would make the game easier than it already is. Lowering ranged damage is a better solution IMO.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

so going as melee means wiping the first trys , after u have learned the pattern u wipe the floor with the boss.

Rdps become redudant after u have learned the boss strat because they do less dps.

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Thats not how i would call it. Rdps bring more utility to the table and cause less stress for the healer, so if melees have nothing in their favor and both deal the same dmg, parties wont want to have melees in endgame content.

Maybe adding more utility to melees could be a solution too. I feel like DRG is almost there with his slow effect.

the thing is melee has 0 utility. Honestly melee are there to do damage... the funny thing is everyone complains they are so "hard" when they have less mechanics to worry about they simply have to follow the boss around and hit which ever skill is glowing.

The biggest problem and its not limited to just melee. Its the animation delay so it makes it harder to melee to attack something moving. The biggest issue with melee would be solved if they simply fixed the animation lag.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

the thing is melee has 0 utility. Honestly melee are there to do damage... the funny thing is everyone complains they are so "hard" when they have less mechanics to worry about they simply have to follow the boss around and hit which ever skill is glowing.

The biggest problem and its not limited to just melee. Its the animation delay so it makes it harder to melee to attack something moving. The biggest issue with melee would be solved if they simply fixed the animation lag.

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I guess hitting the "pew pew" buttons while standing still is tougher. Sometimes I feel like everyone's a troll.

Fixing animation lag wouldn't resolve anything as that isn't the issue since many enemies don't require a lot of chasing unless your tank is retarded (although it will be a huge issue for melee come PvP). Melee can put up respectable numbers but like you said, 0 utility save for Disembowel or Mantra. That's the issue. They're more prone to take damage, deal as much or less damage than ranged, and have little utility.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

I guess hitting the "pew pew" buttons while standing still is tougher. Sometimes I feel like everyone's a troll.

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it would fix more then you realize. As it sits right now any time you have to move a boss which happens more then you think melee lose all ability to DPS due to animation lag. On top of that melee in AVERY mmo are a liability when a boss has frontal and rear cleave like many in this game do, so having the positional requirements that goons and monks have it messes them up having to move into an area that can kill them to keep their DPS going. Simply removing the positional requirements would help melee out more then most would like to admit.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

it would fix more then you realize. As it sits right now any time you have to move a boss which happens more then you think melee lose all ability to DPS due to animation lag. On top of that melee in AVERY mmo are a liability when a boss has frontal and rear cleave like many in this game do, so having the positional requirements that goons and monks have it messes them up having to move into an area that can kill them to keep their DPS going. Simply removing the positional requirements would help melee out more then most would like to admit.

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It would also dumb down the classes a great deal. This combat system isn't really that difficult. Removing any sort of depth to it for melee would make it even more faceroll. If I wanted that I'd roll BRD. I'll pass.

Give melees more utility is a good option , lncs have the best slow , and a piercing debuff (for other lnc and brd), maybe u can change that debuff and add slashing and blunt dmg (sword axe and fists), add invulneravility while jumping

Monks , a real silence / interrupt w/o requeriments , boost buff duration , and maybe let mnk use 2 "fist of" at the same at 50? (fire + wind) (fire + earth) , lower shoulder CD to 20s?

All of this also shows in pugs and the worst DPS-class players are pretty much always the ranged ones, getting hit by AOE and everything in between, easiest roles in the game and yet they somehow manage to be the worst at their given easy chores.

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Originally Posted by Kraun

All of this also shows in pugs and the worst DPS-class players are pretty much always the ranged ones, getting hit by AOE and everything in between, easiest roles in the game and yet they somehow manage to be the worst at their given easy chores.

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then do tell us why ALL the top guys run nearly all ranged classes for progression... thats right because you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

then do tell us why ALL the top guys run nearly all ranged classes for progression... thats right because you are wrong.

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Because they want the easy way out? I don't even mean this in an insulting matter, just the fact that it is more difficult to handle things as melee sometimes and it is a pain to add on more difficulty for no reason. It is doable, but it is also a pain.

I'm pretty sure a good ranged player will be a good melee player and vice versa

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

then do tell us why ALL the top guys run nearly all ranged classes for progression... thats right because you are wrong.

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Read his post again before commenting please. He said ranged PUGS and you talk about top progression guys.

My main is a Dragoon and while I still think he's decent (despite having to work a lot more just to be able to do decent-high damage), I've made a Blackmage for everything else but BC (CM / AK / farming / etc) just because it's a whole lot easier and I don't lose out on DPS. And if even most Blackmage complain about how easy yet effective bards are... that really says a lot.

BLM has to stand still to cast. SMN kinda sorta has to stand still for half of its arsenal. The only ranged class that doesn't have to stand still is BRD.

I dunno, just seems really easy to be a BRD. Turn a song on for healers every so often and you're golden. You could always give them an overall damage decrease, but give them a passive damage bonus that brings them back up to what they are currently when standing still for longer than 3 - 5 seconds. Call it Focus or Focused Fire or something like that. * Shrug *

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Originally Posted by Enforcer

The whole reason for this thread is that it shouldn't be fair that a ranged class can out damage a melee while putting a lot less effort into it. Melee dps rotations are a lot more complicated to execute than ranged ones, and yet still... you end up with less overall dps and damage dealt.

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Ok i understand that. The point i'm trying to make is that at the end everyone in the party worked together to achieve a common goal. If you did not know how much dps anyone was doing, this would never be a problem. I also understand the high risk high reward but in this train of thought you are saying that your reward is just the satisfaction that you did more dmg then a mage. Instead your reward should be that you defeated the raid boss no matter how much less/more dmg anyone did. If for some strange reason they decided to award better gear or a "prize" for doing more dps then i would see your point in a different light but as it stands I just want the common goal

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Originally Posted by Enforcer

The whole reason for this thread is that it shouldn't be fair that a ranged class can out damage a melee while putting a lot less effort into it. Melee dps rotations are a lot more complicated to execute than ranged ones, and yet still... you end up with less overall dps and damage dealt.

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how is melee "more complicated" when the game tells you what button to hit next... I am sick of that excuse. Melee have far fewer mechanics to heal with then ranged on the bulk of the end game encounters as well.

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Originally Posted by Leonas

You obviously haven't spent alot of time as a melee character. I see BRD 50.

Melee have alot of positional requirements, I mean alot. DRG is a little softer as you only need 2 positionals, but you have to land those positionals on DRG or you can't advance realistically to the next ability and get its bonuses.

MNK Has, has to constantly resposition to get maximum damage, alllllllll of MNK's non Off-GCD attacks require a positional or you won't get full damage from the ability not to mention clearing aoes and switching targets can cause GL3 to drop off.

What special mechanic does archer have to go through to reach full damage? Its even handed to them by being able to shoot and move at the same time. NOT trying to bash you, but I don't know why you responded to the person above with mechanics to heal. When people are talking about the difficulty in getting maximum output for damage as melee over ranged.

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there are so many things to micro manage correctly for a bard... i played a pug and a goon in betas and they were overly simple because it was simply hit the glowing button and move from side to side. The management of cooldowns as well as managing the mana of healers is for more complex then hitting a glowing button.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

how is melee "more complicated" *snip*

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You obviously haven't spent alot of time as a melee character. I see BRD 50.

Melee have alot of positional requirements, I mean alot. DRG is a little softer as you only need 2 positionals, but you have to land those positionals on DRG or you can't advance realistically to the next ability and get its bonuses.

MNK Has, has to constantly resposition to get maximum damage, alllllllll of MNK's non Off-GCD attacks require a positional or you won't get full damage from the ability not to mention clearing aoes and switching targets can cause GL3 to drop off.

What special mechanic does archer have to go through to reach full damage? Its even handed to them by being able to shoot and move at the same time. NOT trying to bash you, but I don't know why you responded to the person above with mechanics to heal. When people are talking about the difficulty in getting maximum output for damage as melee over ranged.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

there are so many things to micro manage correctly for a bard... i played a pug and a goon in betas and they were overly simple because it was simply hit the glowing button and move from side to side. The management of cooldowns as well as managing the mana of healers is for more complex then hitting a glowing button.

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So you played them to level 30 max? Good to know I can safely dismiss any claims you make about the difficulty of melee at endgame as you have 0 experience with it.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

there are so many things to micro manage correctly for a bard... i played a pug and a goon in betas and they were overly simple because it was simply hit the glowing button and move from side to side. The management of cooldowns as well as managing the mana of healers is for more complex then hitting a glowing button.

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You are very, very hung up on talking about hitting a glowing button. Thats like, you're main focus and argument here. Very little argument actually. By that same account I can say you don't even have to worry about glowing buttons since your BRD?

Anyway, I'm not arguing against the fact that you have to look at party panel every so often and check healer mana in order to turn on mp song every great once in a while. I"m not saying you don't have at least some things you need to do as BRD and I agree mp song takes a little bit of effort to monitor.

However, you are refusing to acknowledge anything past " A glowy button. " I mean really?

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

So you played them to level 30 max? Good to know I can safely dismiss any claims you make about the difficulty of melee at endgame as you have 0 experience with it.

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This, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

there are so many things to micro manage correctly for a bard...

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2 dots and a 2 procs (bloodletter and straight shot crit)..... because mp song is hardly ever needed , and when is needed , healers will ask for it.

cooldowns is managed by everyclass.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

then do tell us why ALL the top guys run nearly all ranged classes for progression... thats right because you are wrong.

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I just did turn 4 with monk (me) and warrior.

is it optimal? Nope

is it possible? Yes

Reasons:
Stacking Mana and DPS Song at once
Warrior is harder to heal then PLD and has no "oh sh.." buttons
No Melee DPS LB Needed
Melee get hit by unavoidable damage which wastes the mana of healers (Example Headspin from Knights and Soldiers)

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Originally Posted by Kraun

All of this also shows in pugs and the worst DPS-class players are pretty much always the ranged ones, getting hit by AOE and everything in between, easiest roles in the game and yet they somehow manage to be the worst at their given easy chores.

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Actually, certain aoes are harder to avoid from range than close up. This is true with the front cone types like from Keeper of Halidom in Wanderer's Palace. If you're close, and the cone aims for you, you have less distance to run to be out of it, but if you're far, you have a ton of distance to cover to get out.

I see RDPS get hit by these types much more in PUGs than MDPS. I myself get hit by these more often on my BRD than on my DRG.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

2 dots and a 2 procs (bloodletter and straight shot crit)..... because mp song is hardly ever needed , and when is needed , healers will ask for it.

cooldowns is managed by everyclass.

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On top of that both procs are easy to macro, so you will never have to bother with them again.

Not to shit on anyone and every class takes skill to play but BRD is by far the easiest class in the game.

IMO the whole "easy" and "hard" argument is pretty pointless. The honest truth is that melee classes are more dangerous to play. Plain and simple. This is made obvious by the lack of want of melee dps in parties. Coupled with mechanics forcing melee to lose out on significant damage by comparison leads to reason that square enix could just buff melee dps damage. Melee will have the allure of having overall higher damage and a single target limit break, while ranged classes will have AOE's, support, and overall more reliable survivability during encounters. I don't even understand why it's strictly tank/healer/dps. There really needs to be a category for support. Anyway, back to my origional point, it's not about feeling superior or inferior, it's about utility and ability to play the game period.

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Originally Posted by AmonFlamburg

I don't even understand why it's strictly tank/healer/dps. There really needs to be a category for support.

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I dont think we will ever get a strictly support class/job simply because the duty finder doesnt allow it and more evident by the fact bard is classed as DPS, I dont mind it and I hope instead of a support class we get more interesting DPS classes that bring great utility.

I have to play tank because my preferred class (MNK) is terribly gimp in all the content, this wont last long if im forced to play as one class because only 2 dps are optimal

What I would love to see, at least on DRG, is Jump being a Mode-switch instead of just an attack. While in Jump the DRG would be limited in the attacks they could execute, but would be immune to melee attacks/AoE. The buff would have a maximum duration (after which the DRG would land and perform the attack) or could be consumed early by using Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive.

I'm drawing inspiration here from Freya in FFIX, specifically her Trance Jump.

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Originally Posted by TheWitcher

I have to play tank because my preferred class (MNK) is terribly gimp in all the content, this wont last long if im forced to play as one class because only 2 dps are optimal

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It's kind of sad that this issue is making people switch to other classes because the balance goes into their favor.

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Originally Posted by Veis

Melee don't have to dodge plumes on titan unless some of the range die.

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Then you haven't been paying attention. Weight of the Land is very random, and as melee, I've had to dodge them right along with all the range being up.

too me this is sorta like ranger on FFXI. for years they were allowed to be a top flight DD because they had to pay for there damage. in this game melee have to pay for thier damage but arent extended the same courtesy. actually i think the devs knew of this imbalance because i think scholar was intended to operate in melee range. its even mentioned in the story. thier abilities just dont scale well right now.

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Originally Posted by Cubnorris

Actually, certain aoes are harder to avoid from range than close up. This is true with the front cone types like from Keeper of Halidom in Wanderer's Palace. If you're close, and the cone aims for you, you have less distance to run to be out of it, but if you're far, you have a ton of distance to cover to get out.

I see RDPS get hit by these types much more in PUGs than MDPS. I myself get hit by these more often on my BRD than on my DRG.

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Keeper is the one the exceptions to the rule. No other boss that I've ever experienced has a cone that stretches across the room like his does. There are mobs that have room-length direct attacks, like the Magitek Colossus' Exhaust, but otherwise I've never seen a cone that couldn't be avoided by just staying at max casting range. There may be targeted abilities that tend to favor ranged, such as Ifrit's Eruption and Titan's Weight of the Land, but even those can target melee too regardless of how many ranged are alive.

So to summarize: Most things that ranged have to dodge melee have to dodge too. Most things that melee have to dodge ranged can trivialize by just being at max distance.