Alpha Video 4- Quests and Battle

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

No, I understand that and they are important to me. But good graphics and good services, high accessibility, and high usability are not mutually exclusive.

Also sorry Aion I just realized now that you said "and now ARR definitely not feels like that game." I'm kind of dyslexic and read that as "now".

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LMAO I kinda confused there...apologies accepted! where is my cookies....

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

This is why i am not even interested in Alpha because it will be filled with so many stupid FFXI fanboys on the forums that cant move away from their archaic thinking, i will wait for Beta where people that normally doesn't give a flying fk about FFXIV will give an actual good feedback on how to attract them not this hobos that will keep playing regardless of how this game turns out.

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but the grass!

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

but the grass!

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and the unrealistic tents.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

and the unrealistic tents.

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And the jumping. Let's not forget that in real life, people can't jump.

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I enjoyed most of Soken's work in the 1.0 boss fights/job quests. Unfortunately I can't say the same for most of the alpha music I've been hearing. I like the Grid town theme but other than that all the music sounds so... bland? I feel like it doesn't really fit the mood/setting.

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I agree completely. I expected more after hearing his work in 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Athaya

/fail.... there is nothing boring about that battle music it's 10x better than v1 imo!

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Your opinion is yours of course, albeit delusional.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

This is why i am not even interested in Alpha because it will be filled with so many stupid FFXI fanboys on the forums that cant move away from their archaic thinking, i will wait for Beta where people that normally doesn't give a flying fk about FFXIV will give an actual good feedback on how to attract them not this hobos that will keep playing regardless of how this game turns out.

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Very spot on here. I have seen several threads appear complaining about basic MMO concepts that are standard and in my opinion, "necessary", to make a great MMO. I also feel that the only real good feedback we will get with the mechanics are people who are familiar with a wide variety of other MMO's besides FFXI.

I'm sure more constructive feedback will be presented to the team besides "Jumping will destroy the game!", "Why do I have to back pedal?", or "Well in FFXI, they did this....".

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

And the jumping. Let's not forget that in real life, people can't jump.

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LOL so right i never see my parents or siblings jump ever LOL

Guys, don't forget you can change class/ job on the fly. So standard quests like this won't be nearly as bad as wow, where you finish a character >>> make a new one >>> run through the same exact quests again (assuming a lot of these are one time quests forcing you to find an alternative to leveling by your 2nd/3rd job).

Also I doubt all of them will be this basic (as said before these are filler exp quests) . Most quests consist of walk here > talk to blah> talk to blah > kill / retrieve something> walk back get reward. Just because its presented in an easy to understand and find format doesn't change this fact. Walking around aimlessly for hours looking for a vaguely described npc from a journal is hardly using your brain in my book.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

If that's a jab at WOW, it's not a very good one, because WOW today is vastly different from WOW at launch. They actually update every facet of their game to keep up with or get ahead of competition.

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Doesn't change the fact that WoW is the parasite destroying the MMORPG genre.

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Originally Posted by Yucie

Doesn't change the fact that WoW is the parasite destroying the MMORPG genre.

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Got any proof of that which is not sensationalist?

Because MMORPGs in general are larger and more popular and less underground than they were before WOW.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Got any proof of that which is not sensationalist?

Because MMORPGs in general are larger and more popular and less underground than they were before WOW.

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No, WoW has gotten popular. MMORPGs are still something that typecasts you negatively in even other gaming circles. To say nothing of other social circles.

Hell even Final fantasy fans in the US consider 11 and 14 the red headed stepchildren.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

No, WoW has gotten popular. MMORPGs are still something that typecasts you negatively in even other gaming circles. To say nothing of other social circles.

Hell even Final fantasy fans in the US consider 11 and 14 the red headed stepchildren.

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The peak of MMO subscribers was half a mil before WOW launched. Post WOW launch, there are a few MMOs at 900k or more, several more between 100k and 500k, and a TON of free/freemium small scale MMOs and pseudo-MMOs.

Sorry dudes, WOW brought MMOs from something only basement dwellers played, to something casual and/or normal people play. It did the very opposite of kill MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The peak of MMO subscribers was half a mil before WOW launched. Post WOW launch, there are a few MMOs at 900k or more, several more between 100k and 500k, and a TON of free/freemium small scale MMOs and pseudo-MMOs.

Sorry dudes, WOW brought MMOs from something only basement dwellers played, to something casual and/or normal people play. It did the very opposite of kill MMORPGs.

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But you will still be viewed as the former (or at least one with no social life) if you start talking about it in casual conversation. Gods help you if you even consider putting guild management as a skill on a resume. I've seen Final Fantasy panels that were loath to talk about it due to the fans, while jumping on the "remake past titles" bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

No, you stop being ridiculous.

Questing in Final Fantasy XI was simply for fame. You earned 0 experience from them (aside from the few that gave you an EXP scroll, which was entirely random), so they were only there for fame. Once you had the proper fame, nobody quested.

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This man does not speak for all of us.

Imoen makes a very good point. If you do these quests once say as a lowbie lancer, will you be able to do the same quests as a lowbie conjurer? Or will you be using leves or getting into exp party grinds? If there are 3 different options to level, the more the better is what I say.

Per the questing argument, good game design is developing quests that have a natural progression along with your character. There should be some reward (just like in most FF games) for exploring a whole town and talking to every npc. I don't see any issue if some of these quests do not tell you exactly where to go but that you may uncover it further down the road due to your dedication to exploration and investigation. So I think both sides have valid points.

If a quest says go kill 6 hogs down by the lake and they also put it on your map, np. There should be a quest too when you open a secret door in a shop or house, you talk to an npc mentioning how they wish to be reunited with their brother but haven't heard where he went. Through your exploration and talking to everyone, certain npcs give you clues and maybe you find him a couple levels later and the reward is higher than kill 6 hogs.

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Originally Posted by Bladerunner

Imoen makes a very good point. If you do these quests once say as a lowbie lancer, will you be able to do the same quests as a lowbie conjurer? Or will you be using leves or getting into exp party grinds? If there are 3 different options to level, the more the better is what I say.

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Don't quote me on this, but I think almost any quest that is not part of the main story lines can be repeated after a certain time. Would make sense, the small time quests don't seem too significant.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

This man does not speak for all of us.

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agree there shit load of quest in FFXI that had great story and love doing :) but overall questing in ffxi was boring if it did not have great storyline.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

But you will still be viewed as the former (or at least one with no social life) if you start talking about it in casual conversation. Gods help you if you even consider putting guild management as a skill on a resume. I've seen Final Fantasy panels that were loath to talk about it due to the fans, while jumping on the "remake past titles" bandwagon.

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lmfao what?

How socially inexperienced does someone have to be to list video game skills on a resume? What the Christ?

What I'm saying is that before WOW, if you wanted to play an MMO, you had about half a dozen to choose from, your peers probably weren't playing or going to join you, and they were all subscription based.

After WOW, you have at least a dozen decent to good MMOs to choose from, dozens of psedo/free/fremium MMOs to choose from, and chances are your friends are probably already playing an MMO.

You cannot deny the fact that the MMO industry exploded (in a good way) after WOW was released.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

lmfao what?

How socially inexperienced does someone have to be to list video game skills on a resume? What the Christ?

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There, you see? I say "being a Guild Leader", you say "video gaming?? Lolz."

How normal is it to play MMOs again, to society? Remember the circus show that is the VGAs.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

There, you see? I say "being a Guild Leader", you say "video gaming?? Lolz."

How normal is it to play MMOs again, to society? Remember the circus show that is the VGAs.

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On the same level as it is to play non-MMO games.

Which was not the case 1998-2004, when only the 'weirdos' played MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

On the same level as it is to play non-MMO games.

Which was not the case 1998-2004, when only the 'weirdos' played MMOs.

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I'm pretty sure many non-MMO gamer would object to that. Which doesn't even tie into how non gamers view MMO gamers.

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Originally Posted by Bladerunner

Imoen makes a very good point. If you do these quests once say as a lowbie lancer, will you be able to do the same quests as a lowbie conjurer? Or will you be using leves or getting into exp party grinds? If there are 3 different options to level, the more the better is what I say.

Per the questing argument, good game design is developing quests that have a natural progression along with your character. There should be some reward (just like in most FF games) for exploring a whole town and talking to every npc. I don't see any issue if some of these quests do not tell you exactly where to go but that you may uncover it further down the road due to your dedication to exploration and investigation. So I think both sides have valid points.

If a quest says go kill 6 hogs down by the lake and they also put it on your map, np. There should be a quest too when you open a secret door in a shop or house, you talk to an npc mentioning how they wish to be reunited with their brother but haven't heard where he went. Through your exploration and talking to everyone, certain npcs give you clues and maybe you find him a couple levels later and the reward is higher than kill 6 hogs.

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Glad someone read it haha.

Ya there is no reason they won't have some more complex interesting quests scattered through out too. Not to mention the main story/class/job/grand company specific quests etc...

In regards to what Velhart said, I really hope not all of them reset after a certain time limit. I don't mind some repeatable quests but if they all do this then it will get old, I really don't mind the idea of running out of quests by my 2nd or 3rd job then having to wait for more to be implemented and finding alternative ways of leveling in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'm actually kind of glad Yoshi said that they're not likely to do much more than stress test and resolve critical bugs in the Alpha, instead of design changes. If they do design changes based on the feedback of people like Preypacer, this game will be dead in another year or two.

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Annnd... what feedback is that, exactly, Wolfie?

You mean the feedback that I'd prefer to have a well-written quest give me adequate information on what I need to do and some hints on whereabouts I'll need to do it - and then leave me to do the rest myself without the hand-holding?

You mean the feedback that I'd rather be the one actively engaged in locating/solving/completing the quest objective(s) - however simple - rather than having every single detail pointed out to the extent that I don't have to read a word of the quest dialog, don't have to know what I'm after or why I should care?

You mean because I want to actually be given some role in my character's progression beyond "running toward the floating quest objective markers that are impossible to miss", or maybe actually be challenged in some way, rather than having everything spoon-fed to me because the powers-that-be at SE think I'm too stupid, lazy or impatient to figure it out on my own?

That's the "feedback" you feel would have the game dead in 2 years? Taking off the training wheels, cutting the umbilical cord and letting us actually -gasp- fulfill the challenges issued to us.. on our own?

Would that kind of gameplay, being more involved in actually solving the tasks given to you, scare you off, Wolfie? Is that the real issue you have here? Note that I'm asking you a question here. I'm not making an assertion.

If that's the case, and people truly do prefer being coddled and having their hands held through even the most menial and mundane of tasks - lest they be "scared off" by having to figure things out for themselves - then perhaps SE is right and players really are just that stupid, lazy or impatient.

It's funny (but not at all surprising) that of all the people refuting my posts, either directly or indirectly, in this thread and another on the same topic, there's been only one or two people who have actually responded to what I said. Their responses - while divergent from my own views - have been reasonable and relevant. Everyone else, yourself included, has ignored or otherwise twisted it out of context into some ridiculous strawman, just so they could tear it down.

But then I guess that's typical around here, isn't it. Someone makes an argument you don't like but can't adequately refute on its own merits? No problem! Just twist their arguments into something else that you can refute and then rip it to shreds.

Feedback from players who honestly believe that having information be available in-game is the mark of laziness and stupidity; that skill and challenge are derived out deciphering poorly worded and cryptic quest goals instead of the actual combat or puzzles of the quest; and that having content that is delivered in a more modern or piecemeal fashion means that it's poorly written.

Your thought process is cancer to MMO gaming, and I'm glad you're of a dying breed. People like you are what made FFXIV 1.0 into what it was.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Someone makes an argument you don't like but can't adequately refute on its own merits? No problem! Just twist their arguments into something else that you can refute and then rip it to shreds.

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or post a gif, don't forget that one.

You say this...

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Feedback from players who honestly believe that having information be available in-game is the mark of laziness and stupidity; that skill and challenge are derived out deciphering poorly worded and cryptic quest goals instead of the actual combat or puzzles of the quest; and that having content that is delivered in a more modern or piecemeal fashion means that it's poorly written.

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... in direct response to a post where I say this:

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You mean the feedback that I'd prefer to have a well-written quest give me adequate information on what I need to do and some hints on whereabouts I'll need to do it - and then leave me to do the rest myself without the hand-holding?

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In other words, you're doing exactly what I note later in my post:

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Everyone else, yourself included, has ignored or otherwise twisted it out of context into some ridiculous strawman, just so they could tear it down.

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Thank you for proving my point, and I rest my case.

You have no viable counter-argument, so you're just making shit up.

Furthermore, at no point have I said "players are too stupid". My complaint has been that SE seems to feel players (that would include myself, mind you), are too stupid to figure things out on their own.

I personally believe gamers are actually quite smart and could figure those things out on their own, given enough adequate info. This is why I find the excessive hand-holding to be patronizing and offensive. See the difference?

You should really take some time away from forums and work on your reading comprehension skills.

As for me being a cancer to MMOs... Right. Because people who are willing, capable and not at all put off by being challenged in even the slightest amount are what's plaguing the genre. Of course.

You are so deluded it's almost sad.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

They actually required you to use your brain - which of course, in today's MMO market is tantamount to asking many to poke their own eye out with a hot stick.

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Yeah, not calling people stupid or anything.

Whatever dude.

At this point I should be taking a break from the forums indeed, because the more I read posts from and talk with anti-progressive holier-than-thous, the more I sink into an alcoholic depression.

Only in the FF community would you have people arguing against ease of use features such as quest helpers. Get over yourselves its questing to level up which people want to do as quick as possible. You probably won't even touch questing outside of leveling.

The quest tracking is a feature that was originally a fan made addon in WoW. Blizzard liked it so much that they built it in the default UI so people could level up easier and faster without downloading an addon. However you can turn it off if you don't want any help, but its on by default. I am sure they will let you turn it off in FFXIV, if you want to play without it. However in turning it off you will most likely progress slower then anyone else who is using it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Yeah, not calling people stupid or anything.

Whatever dude.

At this point I should be taking a break from the forums indeed, because the more I read posts from and talk with anti-progressive holier-than-thous, the more I sink into an alcoholic depression.

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That's internet for you. Take too much public opinion and your going to hang yourself.

Hmm yes challenges, like having to read to know what to do are a tragedy to gaming! I agree Wolfie. I like dumbed down crap too!

So glad we have shiny markers telling us where to go or I might get lost. And god forbid having to read to find anything out.

Thank god the new generation understands that doing anything yourself is old and of a dying breed.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Hmm yes challenges, like having to read to know what to do are a tragedy to gaming! I agree Wolfie. I like dumbed down crap too!

So glad we have shiny markers telling us where to go or I might get lost. And god forbid having to read to find anything out.

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I think you are missing the point. Questing is the main way to level in 2.0. People want this to be quick and fast otherwise they most likely won't play the game. A lot of people don't want to read quest text maybe you do and its there for that reason. They just want to pull all the quests in a hub, go around the map, kill, loot, pick up whatever items, then turn all their quests in and move on.

They did add flavor text on each quest if you want to read something, but for the majority of people who don't care about that stuff they can skip it and go to where the map tells them to, kill the mobs and get their exp.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Hmm yes challenges, like having to read to know what to do are a tragedy to gaming! I agree Wolfie. I like dumbed down crap too!

So glad we have shiny markers telling us where to go or I might get lost. And god forbid having to read to find anything out.

Thank god the new generation understands that doing anything yourself is old and of a dying breed.

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You know what makes you and Preypacer the cancer of MMO gaming? It's not the fact that you want to be challenged while playing, it's the fact that you want everyone else to be set back and that your way of providing feedback is by belittling people who don't have the same opinions as you and who derive enjoyment out of the game in a different fashion than you.

Instead of asking for the ability to toggle quest help and other in-game helpers off -- a solution that would give you literally everything that you want -- you s**t all over the idea and ask for it to be removed as a whole, while masturbating your ego over every word you type.

Here is a screen shot of another mmo that has quest tracking.

http://i.imgur.com/t5Epc.jpg

See in the lower right hand corner, the option to turn off quest tracking completely from the map for those people who don't want any help. I am sure FFXIV will have something similar for people who don't want any help.

Love the flame war this turned into.

Everyone is entitled to their own feedback and opinion about what they would like to see. I am sure not everyone wants to have your "give me clues and leave me to it" way of doing things, Preypacer. Personally, I want to have fun for a service I am paying for, not wrack my brain trying to figure out how to do a quest for several hours....I do enough of that in college and at work before I come home and relax.

If that is what you're into and this whole system turns you off, then don't play it. Go exercise your brain in the secret world...there is a plethora of quests to your liking in that game....or you can just go old school and play EQ1...I hear they opened a new server not too long ago strictly for progression from level 1.

Either way, it's a choice you will have to make. I have my own gripes with how things are going however, it will not stop me from playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

You know what makes you and Preypacer the cancer of MMO gaming? It's not the fact that you want to be challenged while playing, it's the fact that you want everyone else to be set back and that your way of providing feedback is by belittling people who don't have the same opinions as you and who derive enjoyment out of the game in a different fashion than you.

Instead of asking for the ability to toggle quest help and other in-game helpers off -- a solution that would give you literally everything that you want -- you s**t all over the idea and ask for it to be removed as a whole, while masturbating your ego over every word you type.

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Again with the toggle, not everything can be answered with toggles!

If you have to literally search for the next step in the quest log, there's nothing wrong with highlighting the general area on the map instead of a specific point. or having instructions in the quest log. Having people read every now and then isn't going to kill them.

This progression you talk about I call a different kind of game. It seems like we'll have the quest-hub idea of accepting a dozen meaningless quests, going to an area, killing things / picking up items. Rinse and repeat to level up. When you have quest-hubs generally they're all the same quest with different mobs to kill and different things to pick up. I mean, if you guys hated FFXI so much I'm curious why you expected FFXIV to change into this..

I played WoW and it feels more like an arcade or something than an RPG. If you were to read any of those quests you'd bore yourself to death because it's all the same thing and nothing different ever happens. I personally liked FFXI. Forgive me for expecting another Final Fantasy. Not that I want to bring up wiki's again, but the general feel of FFXI quests was far more interesting than the quest hub idea. I'm sure other parts of the game will hold my interest but I'll miss having that feeling of actually being in a society and not just having a sandbox of helpless NPC's that need you to go fetch and kill over and over until you're 50.

Point is if the quests are like that, no one will want to read any of them including me, because they're all the same thing. I'm not abandoning ship I'm just wondering how people feel like this is evolution in an MMO.

I bet the same idiots who complains about quest leveling loves to play borderlands and other things of the same nature.

Well you just lost a bet then. >__>

Anyways enjoy your quest hub. (you won't)

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

This progression you talk about I call a different kind of game. It seems like we'll have the quest-hub idea of accepting a dozen meaningless quests, going to an area, killing things / picking up items. Rinse and repeat to level up. When you have quest-hubs generally they're all the same quest with different mobs to kill and different things to pick up. I mean, if you guys hated FFXI so much I'm curious why you expected FFXIV to change into this..

I played WoW and it feels more like an arcade or something than an RPG. If you were to read any of those quests you'd bore yourself to death because it's all the same thing and nothing different ever happens. I personally liked FFXI. Forgive me for expecting another Final Fantasy. Not that I want to bring up wiki's again, but the general feel of FFXI quests was far more interesting than the quest hub idea. I'm sure other parts of the game will hold my interest but I'll miss having that feeling of actually being in a society and not just having a sandbox of helpless NPC's that need you to go fetch and kill over and over until you're 50.

Point is if the quests are like that, no one will want to read any of them including me, because they're all the same thing.

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http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/To..._Not_to_Bee%3F

Here is an perfect example of a cryptic FFXI quest. The quest giver gives you no info at all because he can't talk. The game says something like . . . . . when you talk to him. Now unless you looked at the wiki you have to wonder aimlessly around town to figure out which npcs you need to talk to. Eventually find out you need to trade the guy 5 honey which drop from bees outside of town, which you probably wouldn't know if just starting the game. Then its up to you that you can't trade him all 5 honey at once but 1 at a time.

Stuff like this is archaic and won't fly in today's MMOs.