FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

How many Third party programs have been used?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

And in which fight is SMN being excluded? I am currently progging FRU, and I have never seen any SMN being kicked or told to leave, but do please enlighten me: which fight are you progging and you saw this behaviour taking place?

Also, you either care about overall balance or not talk shit 24/7 saying you care about the game and its balance state. Do you just pick whatever suits you and your biased narrative that has very little to do with reality and the actual state of the game?

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PCT to SMN has a 32 to 1 clear rate, that’s more ergregious than the worst of the worst of WOW’s “I’ll dox ya grandma if you join as this job” and far worse than balance defenders pet defence of HW PLD

And like I’ve said before I don’t care about balance, I care that the jobs are grey slop in pursuit of balance and they still can’t balance them which is actually why I don’t really mind the above discrepancy between PCT and SMN, because PCT is trying to do something different. But I know I’d be pissed if I was one of SMN’s 3 mains

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Congratulations to the team achieving this. Mad respect.
People crying about the holy trinity of DPS, Healer and Tank falling apart have probably never seen an on content Ultimate or Savage fight from the inside.
The average playerbase cant pull this off. The average playerbase cant even soloheal sphene without wiping half of the time. There is no need to worry boys. Healers and Tanks will still be needed in the future. :)

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Hahaha yeah pretty much.

I love how they say tanks have too many mits while I constantly watch tanks explode from Powder Mark in FRU because OT failed to give MT co-tank Buff.
Also, all these people who say healing is overtuned never tried to heal Burnished Glory, which was poorly mitted.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Also, all these people who say healing is overtuned never tried to heal Burnished Glory, which was poorly mitted.

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I love how you have literally made the argument of the opposing side here and still missed the point

Healing is overtuned because if you do mit it correctly your healing is stupidly overtuned to heal up afterwards, if you don’t mit properly you basically explode

Either way you don’t need 8 500 potency regens on a 2 minute CD

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

PCT to SMN has a 32 to 1 clear rate, that’s more ergregious than the worst of the worst of WOW’s “I’ll dox ya grandma if you join as this job” and far worse than balance defenders pet defence of HW PLD

And like I’ve said before I don’t care about balance, I care that the jobs are grey slop in pursuit of balance and they still can’t balance them which is actually why I don’t really mind the above discrepancy between PCT and SMN, because PCT is trying to do something different. But I know I’d be pissed if I was one of SMN’s 3 mains

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I have no clue where you got that data from, but fine, I will humor you. The ratio isn't low because people were forced to switch from SMN.
I personally find both PCT and SMN pretty boring, but that's just me.

Why would you exclude UWU from balancing? Do you actually care about balance?

I am still waiting for that example of the fight that you are progging ATM and in which SMN is being kicked/excluded. You got me curious so?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I have no clue where you got that data from, but fine, I will humor you. The ratio isn't low because people were forced to switch from SMN.
I personally find both PCT and SMN pretty boring, but that's just me.

Why would you exclude UWU from balancing? Do you actually care about balance?

I am still waiting for that example of the fight that you are progging ATM and in which SMN is being kicked/excluded. You got me curious so?

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“I’m waiting for that example of people being kicked/excluded”


Edit correction on my part it’s a 23 to 1 pure ratio (ie how many clears PCT has vs how many SMN has) it’s a 32 to 1 ratio on clears of PCT that DONT have SMN vs clears of SMN that DONT have PCT

Literally FRU. You don’t get a 32 to 1 ratio just because people vaguely prefer PCT (your opinions on either are irrelevant to this discussion). PF’s all over are locking caster spots to PCT and if they allow double caster they discourage all but RDM. This was a big controversy when unsurprisingly PCT was incredibly powerful in FRU

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I love how you have literally made the argument of the opposing side here and still missed the point

Healing is overtuned because if you do mit it correctly your healing is stupidly overtuned to heal up afterwards, if you don’t mit properly you basically explode

Either way you don’t need 8 500 potency regens on a 2 minute CD

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If healing as overtuned as you state it is, you wouldn't need to mit, and you would just spam heals.

I'm also wondering, have you ever tried to heal in FRU? You've been playing for 14 years, and your comments suggest that you have, so could you share some advice with me?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

If healing as overtuned as you state it is, you wouldn't need to mit, and you would just spam heals.

I'm also wondering, have you ever tried to heal in FRU? You've been playing for 14 years, and your comments suggest that you have, so could you share some advice with me?

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Both mit and healing can be overtuned at the same time, it's not a vacuum of either/or...

More appropriately, the content is undertuned for what we actually have.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

If healing as overtuned as you state it is, you wouldn't need to mit, and you would just spam heals.

I'm also wondering, have you ever tried to heal in FRU? You've been playing for 14 years, and your comments suggest that you have, so could you share some advice with me?

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You really are grasping at straws now. Stop pretending mitigation and healing are two entirely distinct things, it makes you look unserious.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“I’m waiting for that example of people being kicked/excluded”


Edit correction on my part it’s a 23 to 1 pure ratio (ie how many clears PCT has vs how many SMN has) it’s a 32 to 1 ratio on clears of PCT that DONT have SMN vs clears of SMN that DONT have PCT

Literally FRU. You don’t get a 32 to 1 ratio just because people vaguely prefer PCT (your opinions on either are irrelevant to this discussion). PF’s all over are locking caster spots to PCT and if they allow double caster they discourage all but RDM. This was a big controversy when unsurprisingly PCT was incredibly powerful in FRU

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That is just a number. I have been progging in PF a lot these days, and I have NEVER seen a party locking in a spot for PCT, maybe because it's also against the ToS too..LOL.

PCT is highly effective in ultimates because of its frequent downtimes and the way it can mitigate those moments by simply painting. PCT would be overpowered if it excelled in every single battle, but it doesn’t.

I love numbers, so let's see more of it :
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/58?boss=1071
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/58?boss=1078

PCT is OP, right........

No need to change tanks mechanics, all this can be easily solve by massively boosting boss auto atk dmg to non-tank party members, this means boss will one-shot any non-tank with max out shields with autos. This of course means if both tanks die it will most certainly lead to wipe....as it should tbh.

I think something is wrong with this game...

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

No need to change tanks mechanics, all this can be easily solve by massively boosting boss auto atk dmg to non-tank party members, this means boss will one-shot any non-tank with max out shields with autos. This of course means if both tanks die it will most certainly lead to wipe....as it should tbh.

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Just remove the “non tanks” part of that

Massively up auto attack damage full stop

Tanks should crumble if they don’t meter their mitigation on auto attacks, not save it to kitchen sink busters

To be honest I don't think anything really needs to change because of this, FRU is a fight with a lot of downtime and the bosses barely auto to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Depends on your perspective.



I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.



With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.



Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

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I am actually amazed how you can compartmentalize both problems so much that in dungeons suddenly everything can happen, but in ex ramuh, it's suddenly so easy that "you just have to heal titan egi". I mean, in the majority of dungeons, the tank just has to press buttons as well. It's tomato and tomato. No wonder you saw them as two completely different problems...

Can't wait for the no DPS run.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So your argument here still basically boils down to “the titan egi clear is meaningful exclusion of tanks because ex is done through PF and PF has the ability to willfully choose to exclude classes while healerless casual content isn’t meaningful exclusion of healers because most casual content is done through DF and DF enforces a healer onto the party even if they aren’t needed and feel like a waste of space and because of this enforced DF the amount of people who actually organise healerless clears will never be a meaningful amount even though it would actually be easier if the system allowed it”

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Nope, missed the point. Titan literally gets rid of failure points with almost no downsides. This causes parties to take the easier, less risky route. Since EU/NA extremes are mostly done through PF, this causes parties to exclude tanks in favour of the easier, less risky strat.

If excluding a healer from dungeons was the easier, less risky strat, you would see more PFs popping up with dungeon runs that exclude a healer. You don't though. Now, groups of friends might form a light party and queue that way, but that also doesn't necessarily mean there is an imbalance. The fact that having a healer is not riskier/harder, you don't lose anything having one, infact, it is safer. So there tends to be no problems with running through DF.

If you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations, you need to take a more nuanced look at the different scenarios and the differences surrounding them, especially when this whole thing is about jobs getting excluded based on the environment, speaking of:

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Do you not see how that’s the same thing except one is poorly hidden by the flawed system enforcing it? Would you have liked to be on JP and do ramuh ex in DF and have your DPS go “stay in DPS stance and don’t use agro moves titan is tanking” when you queued in as a tank? Because that’s exactly what healers deal with now

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I would have predicted that, if the titan Egi strat was so good, Japan might have had their first EX fight farmed through the PF rather than the DF, or at least leaned more heavily in that direction. This is obviously speculation, but I do think that shift would have happened.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I am actually amazed how you can compartmentalize both problems so much that in dungeons suddenly everything can happen, but in ex ramuh, it's suddenly so easy that "you just have to heal titan egi". I mean, in the majority of dungeons, the tank just has to press buttons as well. It's tomato and tomato. No wonder you saw them as two completely different problems...

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Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Nope, missed the point. Titan literally gets rid of failure points with almost no downsides. This causes parties to take the easier, less risky route. Since EU/NA extremes are mostly done through PF, this causes parties to exclude tanks in favour of the easier, less risky strat.

If excluding a healer from dungeons was the easier, less risky strat, you would see more PFs popping up with dungeon runs that exclude a healer. You don't though. Now, groups of friends might form a light party and queue that way, but that also doesn't necessarily mean there is an imbalance. The fact that having a healer is not riskier/harder, you don't lose anything having one, infact, it is safer. So there tends to be no problems with running through DF.

If you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations, you need to take a more nuanced look at the different scenarios and the differences surrounding them, especially when this whole thing is about jobs getting excluded based on the environment, speaking of:



I would have predicted that, if the titan Egi strat was so good, Japan might have had their first EX fight farmed through the PF rather than the DF, or at least leaned more heavily in that direction. This is obviously speculation, but I do think that shift would have happened.



Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

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That’s the thing, if you meet a (very low) bar of skill then bringing a healer IS an active detriment because they do less damage for functionally no positive gain outside of being a safety net the party really doesn’t need. This also allows you to skip mechanics and generally make the run faster

A healer is only not a detriment when the safety net is needed. But you can argue the same “tanks are needed” when the SMN was either really bad or the party was bad at managing agro. They are both just a facet of meeting the low skill bar needed to perform the off clear

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the thing, if you meet a (very low) bar of skill then bringing a healer IS an active detriment because they do less damage for functionally no positive gain outside of being a safety net the party really doesn’t need. This also allows you to skip mechanics and generally make the run faster

A healer is only not a detriment when the safety net is needed. But you can argue the same “tanks are needed” when the SMN was either really bad or the party was bad at managing agro. They are both just a facet of meeting the low skill bar needed to perform the off clear

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If you have the choice of using Titan where all you have to do is keep it alive, or, 2 tanks where they have tank swap, avoid overcharging, hope the other party members do not steal their orbs, properly mitigating have proper positioning etc. Which one are you going to choose as the safe, less risky method.

If you are doing a dungeon, remember the skill gap between bottom and top is larger, is it not safer to have a healer? How about if the tank was a Dark Knight? Does that change things? You only see the healer as a detriment because it makes the run longer due to less DPS. Tanks would be excluded from Ramuh EX because they would also make the run longer, by not taking a tank, you bring more DPS, you skip more mechanics, making it safer. Literally everything is piling up in favour of Titan Egi, whereas there are still benefits in taking a healer in a dungeon, even if it is a safety net.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If you have the choice of using Titan where all you have to do is keep it alive, or, 2 tanks where they have tank swap, avoid overcharging, hope the other party members do not steal their orbs, properly mitigating have proper positioning etc. Which one are you going to choose as the safe, less risky method.

If you are doing a dungeon, remember the skill gap between bottom and top is larger, is it not safer to have a healer? How about if the tank was a Dark Knight? Does that change things? You only see the healer as a detriment because it makes the run longer due to less DPS. Tanks would be excluded from Ramuh EX because they would also make the run longer, by not taking a tank, you bring more DPS, you skip more mechanics, making it safer. Literally everything is piling up in favour of Titan Egi, whereas there are still benefits in taking a healer in a dungeon, even if it is a safety net.

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So yes in both runs it’s literally

“Do you meet the minimum requirements to exclude this role to make this run easier. If yes exclude this role for pure benefit”

The only benefit to not excluding the healer comes from if you don’t meet the minimum competency; which extreme pre excludes for

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Having a healer isn't a detriment like having tanks in Ramuh EX would have been. If you want a simple comparison, it is that right there.

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But having a healer is a detriment though. A pretty big one.

Good, you just need a picto still. Not good.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

#TankStrike

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This but unironically

Aww when I heard this was cleared without tanks, somebody told me it was just healers. I was expecting an all healers clear. Sadge.

Anyway, XIV is baby town frolics gameplay wise since SHB, so it doesn't surprise me or anyone, I don't think.

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Originally Posted by BelegErkhten

This but unironically

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Do it! Tanks need to speak up too. Start their own strike!

Let the YouTubers start talking about how two of the three roles are now up in arms in FFXIV.

Maybe that'll grab the attention of Square Enix's shareholders and force some change.

Seriously tanks, demand your role mechanics back. The state of agro in 14 is hilariously bad

I’d support tanks being sick of being melees with training wheels

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Seriously tanks, demand your role mechanics back. The state of agro in 14 is hilariously bad

I’d support tanks being sick of being melees with training wheels

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Aggro was barely a role mechanic. Well, at least not since level 30 / 40 when you got your tank stance. There was barely any aggro problems when you did 1 or maybe 2 aggro combos and then dropped the stance for the rest of the fight.

The aggro management was done by the DDs and healers, so tanks could avoid using aggro skills. And of course Ninja.


What tanks actually lost is defensive cooldown management, crowd control, keeping debuffs active on the enemy, enemy placement, and a sense of risk reward by tanking without tank stance (which sounds contrary to the role fantasy of tanks, but at least you actually had to press your buttons to survive).

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Originally Posted by Tint

Aggro was barely a role mechanic. Well, at least not since level 30 / 40 when you got your tank stance. There was barely any aggro problems when you did 1 or maybe 2 aggro combos and then dropped the stance for the rest of the fight.

The aggro management was done by the DDs and healers, so tanks could avoid using aggro skills. And of course Ninja.


What tanks actually lost is defensive cooldown management, crowd control, keeping debuffs active on the enemy, enemy placement, and a sense of risk reward by tanking without tank stance (which sounds contrary to the role fantasy of tanks, but at least you actually had to press your buttons to survive).

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I’m saying “tanks demand agro back” not as in they lost it in ShB as in “why was agro always a NIN mechanic THEN they lost it entirely”

Tanks deserve actual agro management that isn’t offloaded to the NIN

There used to be a fair drawback to even swapping tank stances in the past too, right? 10s recast on Defiance/Deliverance, while Grit and Oaths were GCDs. They were all adjusted to a 3s recast in early EW, later to 2s. It kinda sounded like the penalty for messing up switching stances could've been a bit harsh and placed a sizeable burden on the rest of the party to me.

With a short recast it'd be a little bloaty to just have them essentially lock you out of using certain skills like cleric stance seemed to do, but I feel that can be avoided when they can significantly change the function of a skill and gave them a use in either stance, which sounds like was more the case for tank stances (it was also how EW PvP RDM's white/black shift worked).

Also does it even have to be a stance dancing on every tank? Could one job have specific skills to do enmity/defensive management at the cost of dps and no stance at all, while another uses the current simplified stance and defensive tools but have a more complex dps kit or somesuch?

So ... #Tankstrike?

I think the moral is you can do content with any comp you like. That should be a good thing. Just that fights are designed for the majority to be 2 tanks 2 healers 4 DPS. (You) As a player don't have to follow that rule if you don't want to.

While I myself may not be competent enough to do this content just yet I find the freedom to experiment on what is possible a good thing.
I've only seen this as something that should be considered a problem if it's adopted by a majority of the player base. I don't think no healers or no tanks is easier or superior.

Generally speaking coming from WoW there have been times where as an example one class is just so completely useless or is in such a terrible state you may as well not play that class because you won't get invited.
I'm not watching a tankless run or a healerless run and going "Yeah I can do that - this is the new norm" I don't find this as trivializing content I find it as interesting challenges or ways statics can approach things their own way in unorthodox ways.

It is funny though.
Now all we need is a DPSless run. So we can be full circle.

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I think the moral is you can do content with any comp you like

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The moral is the trinity in this game is very broken. It’s good to have challenges and variations of solutions. It stops being good when there is an artificially created system which people do not see as required or justified. You see such runs and don’t think to repeat? I hear people wishing that DF (yeah, not PF) will allow tank/3 dps composition as a no joke. You think it won’t be used by people if it gets introduced by the devs based on the current climate?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Now all we need is a DPSless run. So we can be full circle.

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That was really only possible in Heavensward when tank DPS was high enough to beat enrage timers on current content.
So very unlikely to happen until they remove the nerf that tanks have in their damage calculations since Shadowbringers.

And let's be honest, that would be the straw that finally breaks the camel's back.
Dps players are the vast majority of the population and the "favourite child" of the job designers.

If they could be replaced by a tank, which is not only easier to play but allows for a lot more mistakes during prog, and you could still comfortably meet the DPS checks then we would have a massive shitstorm on our hands and they would finally have to acknowledge the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tint

Aggro was barely a role mechanic. Well, at least not since level 30 / 40 when you got your tank stance. There was barely any aggro problems when you did 1 or maybe 2 aggro combos and then dropped the stance for the rest of the fight.

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This was only true because of Shadewalker, which could have been corrected. Meanwhile in casual content it wasn't unusual to have aggro shenanigans happen.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So yes in both runs it’s literally

“Do you meet the minimum requirements to exclude this role to make this run easier. If yes exclude this role for pure benefit”

The only benefit to not excluding the healer comes from if you don’t meet the minimum competency; which extreme pre excludes for

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If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

But having a healer is a detriment though. A pretty big one.

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Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.



Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

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If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

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Ah! So we're back full circle to the enforced roles in DF vs PF argument. And you can bet if expert was strictly run in PF, you'd suddenly see an interesting shift in meta.
And if your point is to say that some would be left behind after such a shift, then I'd agree, a small amount of the playerbase definitely would, like a small amount was left behind when double pulling / mass pulling became the enforced norm over time. if you want to compare this to Ramuh Ex where "everybody would be able to tank as SMN, easier than tanks", sure, but then it's comparing apples to oranges for the aforementioned reason that we're talking about extreme trials, which is a different audience that filters a different subset of the playerbase, and has a way higher skill floor, negating the problem of the players being left behind by the meta to begin with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Anyway, XIV is baby town frolics gameplay wise since SHB, so it doesn't surprise me or anyone, I don't think.

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The real Blackpill is knowing that it still wasn't actually hard before then either, but people gaslit themselves into thinking the game was hard because they had no idea what they were doing. "Game was harder in Hevansward" because you had people who would play PLD and never press anything other than Rage of Halone, like no shit the game is harder when you have people with no idea how to play their job and even less desire to learn how to do so.

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Originally Posted by BelegErkhten

The real Blackpill is knowing that it still wasn't actually hard before then either, but people gaslit themselves into thinking the game was hard because they had no idea what they were doing. "Game was harder in Hevansward" because you had people who would play PLD and never press anything other than Rage of Halone, like no shit the game is harder when you have people with no idea how to play their job and even less desire to learn how to do so.

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Something like managing Blood of the Dragon on DRG was absolutely more difficult than what it's like now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

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This isn't about me, this is about the general community, who, in DF, can have a wide range of skill levels. Having a healer is just safer when going into that environment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

Ah! So we're back full circle to the enforced roles in DF vs PF argument. And you can bet if expert was strictly run in PF, you'd suddenly see an interesting shift in meta.

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Probably, yes and we can have that discussion when it happens as it shows a clear switch in how the game is being played by the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

And if your point is to say that some would be left behind after such a shift, then I'd agree, a small amount of the playerbase definitely would, like a small amount was left behind when double pulling / mass pulling became the enforced norm over time. if you want to compare this to Ramuh Ex where "everybody would be able to tank as SMN, easier than tanks", sure, but then it's comparing apples to oranges for the aforementioned reason that we're talking about extreme trials, which is a different audience that filters a different subset of the playerbase, and has a way higher skill floor, negating the problem of the players being left behind by the meta to begin with.

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Yes, that has been my point the entire time, the situations are different, therefore need to be considered differently, in the same way you cannot compare tank struggles to healer struggles, or healer struggles in EX/Savage etc. compared to content run in the DF (at least in the English community). Even when talking about tanks in dungeons, there is even a discussion to be had between them, mainly the way WAR can very effectively get through a dungeon on it's own, but if you have a DRK? It is likely impossible. Another reason why having a healer in DF is not a detriment.