Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

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Originally Posted by technole

Well I'm a dev, personally it doesn't seem worth the hassle to implement a whole new database of downgraded skill potencies, nevermind all the QA that would have to be done to see what outdated or even sync'd content like criterion or ultimate ends up breaking as a result. Players would rather battle team spend their time doing job rehaul in 8.0 rather than this play-it-safe meta we got in 7.0

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If it isn't worth the hassle then maybe the game isn't worth the money.
Most people "disliking" the change so far in this thread stated that its hard work, too much work or impossible. Only one if I remember right said they would actually be sad if they wouldn't be able to use Stone or Aero because they outleveled this phase. Which I can respect. But saying "its too hard to do" I cannot sorry. Many other games showed its possible to do. The purpose of me starting this thread mainly is to open up and see how many ppl would like the same that I like.

Yes a rework of the jobs is in sight and I don't for a second even thought that even if this thread is read by the devs and even if they decide it was a good idea and even if they put it on their blackboard, that they would think about implementing it in 8.0. I thought to myself. "hey maybe 9.0 or 10.0." I know how long changes can take. But I despise hearing "its impossible" when it has been done multiple times in other games. Yes its hard work, everything is hard work with this engine most probably. But I am pretty sure it can be done. And if enough people want it and the devs see it and they actually think the same then maybe they even make it happen in 11.0.

I do think it is worth the hassle even if it takes time to implement and is written as "planned" below the blackboard in some corner.

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Originally Posted by Deniza

Many other games showed its possible to do.

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Okay. Are the many other games FF14?

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Originally Posted by technole

Well I'm a dev, personally it doesn't seem worth the hassle to implement a whole new database of downgraded skill potencies, nevermind all the QA that would have to be done to see what outdated or even sync'd content like criterion or ultimate ends up breaking as a result. Players would rather battle team spend their time doing job rehaul in 8.0 rather than this play-it-safe meta we got in 7.0

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Ultimate would not and should not be impacted by a level sync overhaul, so that point is moot. Each ultimate encounter should be left exactly as intended.

You know any overhaul that's done in 8.0 is only going to be relevant for the max level, once again leaving behind another expansion that feels lame to go back and do content for. This is absolutely worth consideration because what, 80-90% of their game now is synced? So much content feels like ass to play right now and it doesn't have to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Okay. Are the many other games FF14?

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"99% of games did it"

you :

"WELL FFXIV IS THE 1% THATS NORMAL OKAY"

Small indie company strikes again, literally every company can do it, but for FFXIV and SE it's too hard to do.

Keep defending mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

It is not our job to think of ways to fix it, the devs can do the calculations, they get paid to work on the game.

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Devs do get paid to work on the game as it now exists, with its current direction and already generated requirements.

What they don't get paid to do is work on this One Thing without direction from Corporate, who gets paid to determine whether the time, effort and funding required to completely revamp the battle system to your satisfaction is going to enhance long term revenue enough to recover the cost of the revamp.

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Originally Posted by Deniza

If it isn't worth the hassle then maybe the game isn't worth the money.

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That is a personal decision of every player of every video game. Ever.

Be prepared to be disappointed, and act accordingly. That's a gauge used by every gamer from Pong to the present.

And hassle, in this case, is defined by "does the company recuperate enough money to pay for changes over a relatively short period of time?", not by how difficult the coding might be.

Square Enix may be exceptionally averse to massive change without guaranteed returns, when you think about it.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

But it is still a burst you don't have at lower levels. this is more impactful in dungeons when you have downtime between pulls, so you have more uptime in your burst. I think we have fundamentally different views on how the low level should be handled, which is fine and it might be a case of agree to disagree on this topic.

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Definitely, that is part of why (though not to you specifically) I had mentioned in this thread I imagine the curves will be best every 10 levels. So they're a bit more fine tuned. There are things you have to ensure, like a chain doesn't become less valuable than a non-chain, and then again using ceilings (with every 10 levels being a bit easier to control, and the floor just in case the game tries to give you a 50 potency spell or some hot garbage).

A good system is going to take a bit of thought, and personally I still imagine just setting up a series of rules and having it traverse the skills for me (like reading 1 -> 2 -> 3, and doing a first pass on potencies, if reaching the end and having spare change or excess then going again with a new set of rules). I probably wouldn't hand tune each item, but just ensure (through rules in the algorithm) that you don't get things like 1 -> 2 -> 3 turns into a potency loss compared to spamming one skill. You WANT to retain the structure of the job, so you reward playing the job roughly as designed.

Honestly, more recently, I had shower thoughts on other methods I might introduce instead of the above, like bringing back a break system (and or stagger). Which I am starting to get a little partial too. Where the rate of potency is just dynamically used (there is no per 10 level or even specific modifications to each spell), rather the game just says "right this is the max amount of potency I expect to be reasonable" and filters on the spot- where the excess goes towards break / stagger mechanics. At the point of break / stagger the monster can gain additional damage received modifiers, perhaps drop special rewards*, and may even change mechanics slightly (don't have to spend overly long on it, but like if you break the chimera it might stop casting dragon song but instead may dash to players and cast rams voice in a forward and rear cone).


The break points can also involve intricacies or multiple levels, like you can break a horn through frontal damage, hobble a leg from the side, stand in a specific aoe marker and deal damage to break a crystal shard on the boss (like you stand in the 'bad' aoe, and it registers the damage to that shard IF you dodge the 'bad', so you're dance timing things). Then of course the boss can add their own layers back for a more dynamic fight. These systems SE should feel comfortable working with too, given they've done them to some extent in multiple other games. In FFXIV 1.0 they had this too, but it was general damage :p (now we're using it for excess lol).

There are a few reasons I think this is interesting. First, in terms of balance- this is a lot easier lol, it's just the great wall of potency filter. Second it plays into a topic below about setting a better fight experience, and last it can help with older content and powerful players as you can reward them even further than the original dungeon designs (and may play a part in variations of gameplay, since when you first did it no one was breaking anything but now... now you are). The filter can be squishy, and its to catch over achieving not to force a weird attrition mechanic (its not there to cause you to hit enrage mechanics). Like some squishy element of it might be a portion of that excess (stagger/break) damage is turned into a DOT on the boss (so their bar starts to get gray health). Especially combining the below concept of reward to time though, where for example TRUST NPCs dynamically change their damage based on your performance (essentially), this makes it so you have a set time frame for that content with the same reward no matter THIS IS NOT THAT. You might end up experiencing more of the fights and having to pay attention to more mechanics, but the reward should represent your efforts (in a reward to time formula) such that you feel it was valuable / worthwhile time.

*Ideally rewards need to be kept relevant in some way, like material for cool weapon / furniture crafts or tokens and tomes (not a lot but hey you get 10 tomes for breaking the Ogre horn and then killing him during his stagger phase!). This way you can go do a Satasha dungeon and be like "maybe some glamour, but also I can work to get some other stuff done too".

Also I still think you could optionally allow players to 'min skill' sync, so if you want to intentionally return with the relevant kit you can. Ultimate, also, will force min skill sync- since that content is supposed to be a 'now and forever' and really if we had the tech for it I would even freeze the entire kit in time. So everyone, sans new jobs, always has the exact same fight tools and its purely player driven skill (and memorization lol).

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

On an (almost) unrelated topic, do people like having their burst cut off when things die? Do a trash pull, pop everything, 4 GCDs later, everything is dead. For me, that is wholly unsatisfying. Bosses? die after the 20 seconds burst phase, I mean, you got the burst in, but not a lot else. Great way to practice a rotation isn't it. /s

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Personally I am always worried about keeping things exactly the same in challenge and / or not rewarding progression (so I 'expect' things to get faster) but I do wish that sometimes we could preserve the fight more but reward more instead. Since rewards as a function of time, you're rewarded more for the easier content (cause it's faster). But rather than making it faster (cause it's easier, sometimes much easier), I'd wish it was just more rewarding but perhaps still similar amount of time / challenge (within reasonable expectations).

For example Challenge Echo might attempt to nerf your character to what a player group of 8 had (or 4), with perhaps further nerfs to defense on avoidable damage (unavoidable damage might still leave you a bit forgiven, since that could lead to issues). Then if you beat this mode which took 10 minutes it would be worth the approximate same amount of rewards that clearing 4 runs in 10 minutes of epic echo would have had. It'd be more fun to farm old content, and you wouldn't feel like a fool for doing it.

I know that wasn't exactly your target topic, but I think of like how hunt monsters scale poorly, or how some bosses you way over ilvl sync, in the same space too and perhaps all this scaling tech we're talking about can be used with "I will reward you more yes, but it will still be some sense of "please pay attention to the mechanics"".

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As for the people who keep saying 'I'm not a dev, that is for the devs to sort out', I just want to say, why not put a bit of thought into suggestions? By thinking about the pros and cons, or thinking about how things might be affected, you might be able to fine tune a suggestion to make it easier/more realistic to achieve. If I asked for the game to be made into an FPS, someone else responded, not possible/realistic for a multitude of reasons, but I came back with, that's for the devs to figure out, it doesn't make the initial claim less silly. This should apply to all aspects of the game.

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I assume this was a general statement and not specific to me, but yeah I agree. Although I wont bother thinking of exact potencies because I just think if I got to that detail I might as well be telling them to hire me lol. That seems like work adjacent at that point https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ies/tongue.png.

I definitely agree given you can find I am probably one of, if not the, biggest wall of text and chocobo turd posters here XD (when it comes to trying to explain a desire / idea of what would be nice).

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Now, the above is an extreme example to highlight a point. If we were to bring it down to this topic itself, then yes, I think most would agree that low level is boring and needs improving. However if some of us are coming back with concerns or reasons why we don't think it is realistic, then they need to be addressed and not just dismissed outright. A few of us have even tried to make more realistic suggestions that both improve the low level experience and makes it less jarring for higher level players to get synced down to. this system, once made, then not needing to be touched again, unless something changes fundamentally with the job itself. As opposed to a system that needs to be adjusted every expansion due to new tools and maybe even if potencies change.

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I think we generally agree, but disagree on what realistic is. I personally think they're going to mess up hand crafted lower levels shortly after doing it (non-sustained effort), and that it will take more work to hand craft those changes rather than something dynamic. Such that while I KNOW an automated system wont be perfect I think it will be much easier to institute and also much easier to maintain, and ultimately just be more consistent experience and allow players to play the character that they have progressed. However, lets say both ideas are possible and there is no issue on either (SE isn't giving us a monkey paw or some sort of cost choice).. then to me I don't care which one is picked. If it feels better, it feels better! :)

I can understand why you desire that but you aren't seeing it as a new player who will never do as much as you will and to do it even if they succeed there is one other problem.


No fight will be balanced allowing a lv100 to sync to exemple ifrit ex first the boss will die way faster then people who will want to live the fight as it was intended.


I am sorry but what you are asking will break all balance of the game at lower lv and will kill pf even more.

Like if you choose to do a sync run Alexander savage why would you welcome someone that is LV 60 with cap gear with a half rotation when you can have a lv100 sync to 60 with a full 100 rotation?


Do you see the bigger picture?


The game would-be damaged beyond repair because of the learning of a skill most other MMO that does it doesn't sync you down compared to 14 that will respect the lower lv because the low lv also matter they're experience matters too.

So stop wanting to create a bigger gap as it is now and see what you are asking in a bigger picture.

and remember


WE ALL PAY A SUB

“Living the fight as intended”

That philosophy died when they decided to change the jobs so radically from when they actually launched

Just because there is an arbitrary sync on content doesn’t mean it feels anything remotely similar to how it felt when it was current given how the game itself has changed

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Honestly, more recently, I had shower thoughts on other methods I might introduce instead of the above, like bringing back a break system (and or stagger). Which I am starting to get a little partial too. Where the rate of potency is just dynamically used (there is no per 10 level or even specific modifications to each spell), rather the game just says "right this is the max amount of potency I expect to be reasonable" and filters on the spot- where the excess goes towards break / stagger mechanics. At the point of break / stagger the monster can gain additional damage received modifiers, perhaps drop special rewards*, and may even change mechanics slightly (don't have to spend overly long on it, but like if you break the chimera it might stop casting dragon song but instead may dash to players and cast rams voice in a forward and rear cone).

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If you can get extra potency from staggering/breaking, it is the same issue, just laid out differently.

However, adjusting fight mechanics based on how yo interact with the boss is something I have expressed in the past, mainly by stunning/interrupting casts to change their properties, but this could also be extended to changing several moves. But these sorts of mechanics shouldn't just be limited to just when you are synced down.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I assume this was a general statement and not specific to me, but yeah I agree. Although I wont bother thinking of exact potencies because I just think if I got to that detail I might as well be telling them to hire me lol. That seems like work adjacent at that point https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ies/tongue.png.

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I don't think finding exact potencies are needed, but a thought on if changes were made, how will it affect things in general shouldn't be too much to ask. In the case of jobs, going from more sustained jobs, where the burst potential is low, compared to level 100 where the burst potential is very high. You have 2 different damage curves and trying to conform one to the other based on content just isn't going to be easy. The only reason I initially pointed out potencies was to highlight the issue that you cannot just take what we have and assume it will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

I can understand why you desire that but you aren't seeing it as a new player who will never do as much as you will and to do it even if they succeed there is one other problem.


No fight will be balanced allowing a lv100 to sync to exemple ifrit ex first the boss will die way faster then people who will want to live the fight as it was intended.


I am sorry but what you are asking will break all balance of the game at lower lv and will kill pf even more.

Like if you choose to do a sync run Alexander savage why would you welcome someone that is LV 60 with cap gear with a half rotation when you can have a lv100 sync to 60 with a full 100 rotation?


Do you see the bigger picture?


.




WE ALL PAY A SUB

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Sorry i dont wanna be rude but whats that for a dumb example? Even synced down in the current state people will take a lvl 100 char instead of a lvl 60 char, doesnt matter the content, take example ShB or EW Ex Trials both are Level 80 or 90 and People still expect people to be lvl 100, so your example is not good at all

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Sorry i dont wanna be rude but whats that for a dumb example? Even synced down in the current state people will take a lvl 100 char instead of a lvl 60 char, doesnt matter the content, take example ShB or EW Ex Trials both are Level 80 or 90 and People still expect people to be lvl 100, so your example is not good at all

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Well it is good but both their and your assessment of it isn't right.

When people do MINE and synced content, they are often sprouts or very welcoming of sprouts - I mean literally, they are often free trial players or people that will not progress to the next expansion until they have cleared all the Extreme and Savage synced/MINE (depending on their preference). They often become really good at raiding before they even get to the current expansion given their intense focus on it.

The synced/MINE community wouldn't expect or require that sprout to be max level particularly. However, it could mess everything up if the veteran players just "helping out" had overpowered rotations compared to the sprout, while also unbalancing the content from how it is now, where it can still be enjoyed with a fulfilling difficulty level.

ARR and Heavensward raids and extremes, especially, are trivialized by Bloodwhetting and Shake It Off. The Ultima, Shiva and Sophia we got in Unreal were a joke compared to doing them MINE due to abilities like this by reducing the reliance on the healer, and making the tanking a breeze - so there is little thought into saving cooldowns or cooldown management.

So it would be unfortunate if all the old content was also ruined in this way since they are enjoyed by a lot of sprouts now with how the synced and MINE community has grown since Shadowbringers' launch. That's why there should at least be a Duty Finder setting to sync abilities the way they are currently.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Sorry i dont wanna be rude but whats that for a dumb example? Even synced down in the current state people will take a lvl 100 char instead of a lvl 60 char, doesnt matter the content, take example ShB or EW Ex Trials both are Level 80 or 90 and People still expect people to be lvl 100, so your example is not good at all

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ok I will exemple with more dept I was at work timed so forgive me for that haha but we will take Ifrit ex on that who will you pick between a LV 50 from the expension or someone that will be sync down to 50 but with the rotation of a LV 100?


the answer will be the LV 100 because they do way more damage no matter what and it will also kill the boss way faster sadly killing both the experience of new player like imagine a viper sync with LV 50 skill and then see it in the same fight but with the LV 100 rotation who will be better? Even destroy the boss. asking to be able to use all skill at all LV. All dungeon become a joke destroying all balance in the game and even more with new player you could probably see it more into ultimate even more and they are made to challenge you

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

ok I will exemple with more dept I was at work timed so forgive me for that haha but we will take Ifrit ex on that who will you pick between a LV 50 from the expension or someone that will be sync down to 50 but with the rotation of a LV 100?


the answer will be the LV 100 because they do way more damage no matter what and it will also kill the boss way faster sadly killing both the experience of new player like imagine a viper sync with LV 50 skill and then see it in the same fight but with the LV 100 rotation who will be better? Even destroy the boss. asking to be able to use all skill at all LV. All dungeon become a joke destroying all balance in the game and even more with new player you could probably see it more into ultimate even more and they are made to challenge you

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Except other games that have level sync and let you keep your full kit have damage scalars that make sure someone at the lowest level possible for the dungeon does the same or more damage by spamming 1 ability. As has been said before, the bigger problem with it in XIV would be how dramatically utility, mitigation, and survivability tools improve at certain thresholds.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

ok I will exemple with more dept I was at work timed so forgive me for that haha but we will take Ifrit ex on that who will you pick between a LV 50 from the expension or someone that will be sync down to 50 but with the rotation of a LV 100?


the answer will be the LV 100 because they do way more damage no matter what and it will also kill the boss way faster sadly killing both the experience of new player like imagine a viper sync with LV 50 skill and then see it in the same fight but with the LV 100 rotation who will be better? Even destroy the boss. asking to be able to use all skill at all LV. All dungeon become a joke destroying all balance in the game and even more with new player you could probably see it more into ultimate even more and they are made to challenge you

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I get your first point, thats why i said i didnt want to sound rude haha, but to your second point the balance is already destroyed thats why i wouldnt balance be a consideration in this case, i mean look at how fast bosses are dying, doesnt matter of alli raid, dungeons etc etc etc if you get in a lower one, we are already at the point where you cant even see 50% of the shit bosses would do because everything is dying way too fast

Btw People forget one important thing, the kit we have now for lv50 as example is not the kit we had in the past, square enix deleted so many skills in the last years, and now we have nothing good and nothing fully suited for the lower content

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Btw People forget one important thing, the kit we have now for lv50 as example is not the kit we had in the past, square enix deleted so many skills in the last years, and now we have nothing good and nothing fully suited for the lower content

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Thats another important thing, yeah. We used to have somewhere around 20-30 skills at level 50 in ARR, and ever since then, the amount of buttons have always roughly remained the same even though CS3 added ~5 new skills per class on each expansion, as older abilities were pruned.
Of course that leaves classes in a more and more barebones state on lower levels the more expansions release.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If you can get extra potency from staggering/breaking, it is the same issue, just laid out differently.

However, adjusting fight mechanics based on how yo interact with the boss is something I have expressed in the past, mainly by stunning/interrupting casts to change their properties, but this could also be extended to changing several moves. But these sorts of mechanics shouldn't just be limited to just when you are synced down.



I don't think finding exact potencies are needed, but a thought on if changes were made, how will it affect things in general shouldn't be too much to ask. In the case of jobs, going from more sustained jobs, where the burst potential is low, compared to level 100 where the burst potential is very high. You have 2 different damage curves and trying to conform one to the other based on content just isn't going to be easy. The only reason I initially pointed out potencies was to highlight the issue that you cannot just take what we have and assume it will be fine.

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Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.


I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not. I understand you worry that It is not just the same kit with more potency (the kit is 'different' at different levels), but this issue has already been solved by other MMOs, and as I've been saying you will pass over the kit multiple times to clamp it down in different spots so that these are roughly in line. You will have situations where your big burst that was 1k potency is now 350 (where another spell that was normally 400 potency is 325) which might sound funny, but this stuff has been done. A freebie weave skill may be hit even harder (depending on what the low levels expectations are, as you have said some jobs don't have all that at low levels). The only real thing we won't capture for is features, we're going to ignore if scholar can group combat sprint or someone can raise, while their damage is brought down a lot we'll leave the features.


Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.


We especially don't have an issue if we just do the great filter wall (wrapped in stagger/break), because who cares what your kit says at that point. It just reads the incoming amount lol.


Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

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Originally Posted by Clockworks

"99% of games did it"

you :

"WELL FFXIV IS THE 1% THATS NORMAL OKAY"

Small indie company strikes again, literally every company can do it, but for FFXIV and SE it's too hard to do.

Keep defending mediocrity.

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"we disagree therefore ur defending mediocrity"

No. Learn to read. I am literally stating objective facts. Those games are those games, this game is this game. I know, I know, how dare I speak ill of your beloved FF14.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

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Just like how I'm talking I'm assuming you're not suggesting 'just' these mentioned variables, as I imagine polish will end up with a few more (for either of us when talking lol). If so, honestly that is generally the description of the sync yeah.

Only one that worries me slightly was mean time to defeat, unless you are talking about my stagger system suggestion in which case that might be helpful yeah*. But if you're talking about just curving people down and calling it done, I think your first two items are the bigger tickets and probably leave mean time out.

* Stagger system was doing more than just dampening high levels, it would be addressing our ilvling content and creating rewarding gameplay systems for that extra damage. For the intention of keeping time to reward similar but increasing quality time in those contents (so that epic god boss that a player is doing for MSQ still feels cool, but high levels players are not pulling out all their chocobo feathers due to boredom and lack of time value).

Yes I expect a level 10 to have some spells that are technically weaker than the level 100 in unmodified situations be stronger than the level 100 due to the dampening (because those higher level jobs will have other things going on, like ogcds)

I expect the full bar to probably be slightly less damage, though the features may occasionally shine. Since we won't spend time trying to figure out if it's fair that a job can raise, heal, or group speed (healing potency will be dampened like damage, but the feature of it existing- no). We're just focused on algorithmically dampening damage in a way that encourages the player to use their kit in a similar way (so you don't get synced down and suddenly the best choice is to only use the first skill in your combo sequence).

The point to me is definitely not to allow a full kit so the boss is dying even faster, I would argue that would be worse.. but it is to maintain an interesting kit.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

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Yes, because who the hell cares about being top damage in roulette dungeons from 2013? It's more engaging to use my full rotation than 1->2 until one mob is dead, hitting tab, and repeating for 10-15 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

No. Learn to read. I am literally stating objective facts. Those games are those games, this game is this game. I know, I know, how dare I speak ill of your beloved FF14.

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But... you were literally defending CS3 by stating these facts and defending the current status quo (and are following up by implying someone criticising FFXIV is mad you are speaking ill of FFXIV). This is not about which game is which, this discussion was about whether making higher level skills available in an MMO ("a game like FFXIV") is possible, and as other games in the same genre have shown: yes, it is possible, and yes, CS3 should consider doing something similar, as the current iteration of how level sync works has only become worse over time due to how skills were pruned and how classes evolved.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Ultimate would not and should not be impacted by a level sync overhaul, so that point is moot. Each ultimate encounter should be left exactly as intended.

You know any overhaul that's done in 8.0 is only going to be relevant for the max level, once again leaving behind another expansion that feels lame to go back and do content for. This is absolutely worth consideration because what, 80-90% of their game now is synced? So much content feels like ass to play right now and it doesn't have to be that way.

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Nope. Old ultimates and any sync'd content gets slightly easier each expansion because they do adjust potencies, traits, and other things for lower-than-max level skills. Nevermind new jobs tend to come out of the gate with higher than usual potencies at all levels, like a certain painting job. So yes it does matter if every skill needed a database entry for different level points, that's more work for so little gain. The thought process with MMO is make both throwaway and also some content they can future-proof to some extent like criterion and ultimates and move on.

I would 100% support this idea, but it's never going to happen. The developers didn't even bother with giving healers or DRG AoE abilities before level 40, even though some jobs get them before level 20. Asking for a full kit is just unreasonable.

They don't give much attention to low level content, and have only been changing it to accomodate the game for solo players. 10 years later, and job crystals are still not mandatory for level cap content...

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Ultimate would not and should not be impacted by a level sync overhaul, so that point is moot. Each ultimate encounter should be left exactly as intended.

You know any overhaul that's done in 8.0 is only going to be relevant for the max level, once again leaving behind another expansion that feels lame to go back and do content for. This is absolutely worth consideration because what, 80-90% of their game now is synced? So much content feels like ass to play right now and it doesn't have to be that way.

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Ultimate is changed every time they change abilities and move them to a lower level. When they rework jobs like SMN, when they put in new jobs like PCT.
It never is as it was on release.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Assume Square Enix has numbers for maximum damage from each job at each level, as well as numbers for the speed of damage delivery at each instance level, as well as mean-time-to-defeat each mob type at each instance level.

After applying a conversion table, you get your level 100 rotation in Sastasha.

In order to get through Sastasha, your combined DPS with full job bar will be slightly lower than an at-level-with-limited-rotation player.

This is what you will accept?

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If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Eh if they stagger for bonus damage we're assuming we've done what I said and brought runaway scaling down a little, so to be honest no. You definitely don't have that issue. Since you're behind the runaway that we already have (that idea if you read had multiple reasons, one of which was to preserve an interesting content and not turn them into 15 second jokes). So, it's better than before actually.

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If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think you're just having trouble imagining a job curved down and others are not....

Also I've seen you mention low levels curve a few times and I don't know why because in our situation we are not doing time walking. The low levels are just coming in to do the content as is, unlike time walking we are only poking high levels. We are only dampening.. we don't need to boost.

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I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Regardless of how hard balancing a curve (not stagger system), I still think that will be much easier and sustainable than hand tweaks to all jobs, but I don't care how they make earlier levels feel better if the end result is it feels better.

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The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

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Originally Posted by Deniza

If that would be the case yes, Cause I don't care about if I do 15 or 10 dps in sastasha. it is so damn low, the dungeon is so damn fast and you skip every major mechanic already. Yes I absolutely accept it if I am able to press my buttons I have at lvl 100.

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Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Even assuming you never complete your burst in full before things die?

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Well, yes, just take the burst to the next mob group, Buffs last long enough.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If staggering increases the damage you do, you either do more damage than intended, or, you you have another variable to balance around, one which necessarily has to change depending on level.

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I think you misunderstood that one. It's a /separate/ idea. So read it in isolation. In case the previous text was not straight forward here is a different telling of it:


Stagger / break / skill play system:


- Take the expected amount of time and damage done in that content that would lead to an interesting fight. Great, store this. They might not have 'that' variable done, but I would be insanely bemused if they didn't have any variable that could construct that (like I'm sure someone has an excel of expectations, DPZ2 like variables already mentioned).

- Filter damage against this system, express those excess damage in the new systems. Do not apply it like regular damage. This fundamentally means that the fights are not faster. ilvl creep is now being siphoned out, or a job that came in late and isn't as well balanced, is being managed.

- Express that excess damage in greater rewards and variations in the fight. This CAN (does not have) to be temporary stagger gauges that return some of the acceleration that you previously experienced (like a damage multiplier, as some FF games have done stagger, or as I suggested gray health DOTs that apply a portion of the excess back). Read strongly the word SOME.


Fundamentally the fights will be more similar to their intended design, you will be seeing more of the fights- even if you're MAX ilvl. However, you will also be getting basically little missions and different ways to interact with the boss in best case scenarios. In worst case scenarios its just little rewards you're breaking off the boss by over preforming.



This means that while the dungeon PRE system was faster the dungeon POST system is equally if not more rewarding but will take MORE time / skill. Because it is siphoning off some of that excess and turning into reward structures.


The filter reads incoming damage so it doesn't really care who or what (much more general filter than the other conversation about job curves, this one is just a great filter wall), making it technically easier than running passes over all the jobs in something that is attempting to keep the structure the same. This system can also be slapped onto hunts and other stuff, so they're less vapor lol.


That whole thing is a entirely new separate concept to the curves we've been talking about. This is not min ilvl and I hope no one is silly enough to suggest that, as this does allow for some growth but ALSO rewards you for growth beyond what would effectively make the content unfun. I also suggested this system in a sense for solo'ing old stuff. Whats more fun, solo'ing the fight in 1 min over and over and over till you get your mount- or solo'ing it for 5 - 7 minutes paying attention to all the mechanics you can and getting a huge payout for it?


This system is saying "sometimes your gear isn't going to make the game FASTER, but it will help you make it more rewarding!". As sometimes faster means worse, actually. Brain dead no fun boss fight. Since it's just a great filter wall, you can also use this system to give jobs their full kits when they sync down cause they'll just add onto the rewards. Which is even better because if you're a high level player coming into old content, you don't normally want anything from it other than to get that roulette bonus-- now you've got encouragement to experience the content AND "earn" more relevant rewards by doing well (using your whole kit).

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I think you are misunderstanding me when I am talking about damage curves. At low level, your DPS over the course of a battle stays relatively flat, as you get more and more levels and inevitably get more and more things to shove into the burst, it spikes up massively. This would already be a tough thing to do, considering Paladin had to get reworked because of this very same issue. This causes issue with downtime, whether that be in a fight or between trash packs in a dungeon, with things still ticking down, you have more periods of engagement in your burst window, which means you do more damage, on average anyway.

As for the comment about other games doing it, I don't know how they operate so I cannot comment, however, I'm also not going to just take it at face value. Even in this topic there are opposing views as to whether WoW does it successfully or not.

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GW2 and ESO have similar concepts, but eh if you don't want to trust that but I also don't think I need to overly research how one company found out how to fly a plane when I just want this company to have airplanes too lol. Also I understand your concern, I don't misunderstand it. Fundamentally a level 10 kit is DIFFERENT than a level 30, and so on. They have not just simply "higher scaled potency" they have substantial changes. I get that. I am saying it doesn't matter, you can account for that (roughly) but attenuating things to key variables like the ones DPZ2 mention, as long as you're willing to accept a little wonk (like WoW does). You can not like WoW, or ESO, or GW2, which is fine-- but I am saying I would happily accept a little wonk.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The system that might need to be re-tweaked every expansion, and would likely need different balancing concerns between jobs is more sustainable than one that is, put work in and leave alone unless major job changes happen? Sorry, I don't see the logic there.

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The suggestion I believe I read from you is to tweak the jobs at lower levels. But each expansion they shift the entire job at higher levels. This means they now have to tweak the job at both ends every expansion. OR... just hit it with some filters that will produce some wonk but will also do things like "not change my kit every time I do something" as some players want to learn their kit, not have parts of it removed that they loved and not practice what is relevant. There are cons of course like a new player is going to see you hitting their poor level 20 spider boss with Bahamut, so I am still not arguing it is perfect.



Yet one algorithmic filter that honestly rarely needs updated, vs every single expansion having to play both ends instead of one end.. One of them sounds a lot easier / sustainable. So I don't see your logic on it either... At least when you're, it appears, arguing a hand tweak of EVERY job is easier than just coming up with a filter that says "I wont be perfect but I am going to squish you all into something that respects the structure of your job, ish".



I disagree with your premise that the algorithm needs tweak every expansion, obviously but it needs stated we are literally opposite here. You think your hand tweak system only needs an occasionally touch and I press doubt because we literally see every expansion they can't / don't do what you're suggesting (they mess with it all for the sake of the end kit), and I am saying do it right once and leave it alone. We're never going to agree on this I think, but I have a hard time seeing how you can't see the logic of designing an algorithm that's job is to wet blanket potency needs stroked more than hand tweaks to each job (and MORE likely every expansion). That said, if they were able to do so successfully, I don't ultimately care how they achieved "interesting gameplay at lower levels" I just really want that. It would be nice to practice the kit that I need to know (max level kit) and not practice the kit that is largely irrelevant so I am bias'd to keeping it intact, but when I do a level 70 dungeon I am not feeling nearly as bad as a level 20.

It's already been pointed out why letting us use our full max level kit at lower levels creates problems. But I agree that syncing down feels terrible for the most part. I think, best bet, is that there's a compromise here.

My go-to solution that I've seen shared by others before is this: All jobs should have a workable, comfortable, ideally fun and functional base kit by level 50. That means that the rotation, if the job has one, should feel like it has all of the structure in place, with further levels building upon it. It also needs movement, like a gap closer or opener, and a gauge with a way to spend that gauge. Some jobs have all this at 50, but most notably don't, and it takes until lvl 60 or 70 to even feel like the class is in a basic, playable state. I think this does a disservice to sprouts and veterans alike--it doesn't teach sprouts about their job skills early in the game well at all, and veterans don't want to sync down and be stuck with a job that has 1/4th of the buttons to press.

For some examples off the top of my head: BRD should have all songs by 50, it's very clunky not to have all three. Samurai should have Kenki and their movement buttons at 50. DRG should have its gauge and slightly longer rotation by 50. BLM should have Ley Lines. All tanks should have a gap closer by 50 and a basic burst/gauge spender. All healers should... I don't know, I don't play healers, I'm sure healers could tell you what they need to feel like they have a workable kit though. I gravitate toward certain jobs like DNC and SMN when I know there's a good chance of me ending up in lower end content, because I feel like those classes are at least mostly playable at 50, and most of my friends do the same if given the chance, because we all HATE getting stuck in one of the Crystal Tower raids with a job that feels like hot garbage to play for the next mind-numbing 15-20 minutes.

Redesigning jobs to feel like a solid base kit at 50 and then getting one new major ability button per roughly the next 10 levels would feel much, much better imo, while avoiding the issues with max level damage potentcies leaving sprouts in the dust.

While I see some issues on DPS skills, the bigger ones I see are on tanks and healers. Say an at-level tank only has Rampart for 20% reduction, while an over-leveled tank also has its 40% reduction. How do you deal with that? If you don't make any adjustments, then it inevitably becomes a liability having the at-level tank, which is exactly the primary goal SE is trying to avoid. If you do adjust it so that the over-leveled tank has to use both of its abilities to achieve the 20% reduction, then what was the point even keeping them both? And that's not even factoring the even higher-leveled tanks that will have their full immunity...

Same with healers. What do you with a WHM that has Benediction vs. one that doesn't? You can't "adjust the potency" of a 100% heal. Either you have it or you don't.

Remember, one of SE's biggest objectives with their system is to ensure that lower-level players (or rather *at* level players) don't get harassed because they're a liability compared to having a higher-level player. Until you can ensure any "sync" system you propose doesn't directly or indirectly encourage this, it's a non-starter.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

For some examples off the top of my head: BRD should have all songs by 50, it's very clunky not to have all three. Samurai should have Kenki and their movement buttons at 50. DRG should have its gauge and slightly longer rotation by 50. BLM should have Ley Lines. All tanks should have a gap closer by 50 and a basic burst/gauge spender. All healers should... I don't know, I don't play healers, I'm sure healers could tell you what they need to feel like they have a workable kit though. I gravitate toward certain jobs like DNC and SMN when I know there's a good chance of me ending up in lower end content, because I feel like those classes are at least mostly playable at 50, and most of my friends do the same if given the chance, because we all HATE getting stuck in one of the Crystal Tower raids with a job that feels like hot garbage to play for the next mind-numbing 15-20 minutes.

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I don't play healers much, but they should at least have their gauges and damaging spenders, especially WHM since lilies currently offer nothing but a single target GCD heal until 74(22 levels after the gauge is unlocked). It's hard to say beyond that because they all have what must be at least a bar and a half of oGCD heals, shields, mitigation, buffs, and resource generation with varying degrees of redundancy.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

While I see some issues on DPS skills, the bigger ones I see are on tanks and healers. Say an at-level tank only has Rampart for 20% reduction, while an over-leveled tank also has its 40% reduction. How do you deal with that? If you don't make any adjustments, then it inevitably becomes a liability having the at-level tank, which is exactly the primary goal SE is trying to avoid. If you do adjust it so that the over-leveled tank has to use both of its abilities to achieve the 20% reduction, then what was the point even keeping them both? And that's not even factoring the even higher-leveled tanks that will have their full immunity...

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For me I don't see this as an issue, never really did I need many defensives in leveling dungeons. And if I did, I overpulled intentionally, knowing that I need to throw defensives.
Overpulling in FFXIV in higher dungeons is blocked through walls so again I don't see that as an issue. Same goes for full immunity, which all tanks when I remember right already have at lvl 50? So all leveling dungeons above already have those for the tanks, and all dungeons before that already get steamrolled and are no challange to even need it. Besides the one or two odd ones where you can pull almost the whole dungeon, Which is mainly ARR design in dungeons that they fixed in some reworked dungeons already.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Same with healers. What do you with a WHM that has Benediction vs. one that doesn't? You can't "adjust the potency" of a 100% heal. Either you have it or you don't.

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As for your Example with WHM, everything below lvl 50 almost only needs one or two Cure II to fully heal a player, yes its not oGCD like Benediction is but the healing required in low level dungeons is minimal to none depending on who is tanking.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Remember, one of SE's biggest objectives with their system is to ensure that lower-level players (or rather *at* level players) don't get harassed because they're a liability compared to having a higher-level player. Until you can ensure any "sync" system you propose doesn't directly or indirectly encourage this, it's a non-starter.

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While I respect that, trying to shield new players from harrasment. imO. it is on us.
If the community is truly "the best on the market" this shouldn't be an issue. Help people if they are new to something, have patience. Be kind. Don't be a dick. General things that we can strive for as human beings in all parts that we do, not just gaming. There are countless of examples of people leaving the group if the tank only pulled one pack at a time instead of wall to wall. And in many such cases the tank is the new player. The issue is that some people are just toxic, and restraining everyone to not have all their abilities in low level content, I think doesn't change the toxic people from being toxic. The toxic person always finds innovative ways on how to make other peoples days annoying.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Same with healers. What do you with a WHM that has Benediction vs. one that doesn't? You can't "adjust the potency" of a 100% heal. Either you have it or you don't.

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I don't get why people keep bringing up Benediction as if it's an insurmountable design hurdle. Essential Dignity will almost always achieve the exact same result sub-50 and is accessible at level 15.

Honestly, even if they let you have all the abilities synced down, it wouldn't make a large improvement for me. Already spent enough time doing my max level rotation that doing it in low level content isn't suddenly going to make it interesting. The only reason I'd touch lower level content is for the rewards and even that isn't sweet enough bait most times.

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Originally Posted by technole

Nope. Old ultimates and any sync'd content gets slightly easier each expansion because they do adjust potencies, traits, and other things for lower-than-max level skills. Nevermind new jobs tend to come out of the gate with higher than usual potencies at all levels, like a certain painting job. So yes it does matter if every skill needed a database entry for different level points, that's more work for so little gain. The thought process with MMO is make both throwaway and also some content they can future-proof to some extent like criterion and ultimates and move on.

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Okay? Then any argument about a level sync rework affecting "balance" is a worthless argument when the balance, as it stands, is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I don't get why people keep bringing up Benediction as if it's an insurmountable design hurdle. Essential Dignity will almost always achieve the exact same result sub-50 and is accessible at level 15.

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People thinking benediction is a good skill (it’s not) is about the oldest example of “acshooly WHM is a good class” (it’s not) in this game

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People thinking benediction is a good skill (it’s not) is about the oldest example of “acshooly WHM is a good class” (it’s not) in this game

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Well, you see, Bene is bombastic, and people judge things off of vibes 90% of the time(conservative estimate here), it's the same reason high potency finishers became so common, when they can be argued to be bad for the game's health in general, it's also how much on the Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, when it is a damage neutral skill other than timing it during raid buffs, and even then not a spectacular gain, save for funky interactions in content like Bozja, such as using it under Lost Seraph Strike with a Profane Deep Essence(absolute drug of a combo by the way, your lvl 80 WHM will be pulling numbers that we can't do in normal content at level 100).

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People thinking benediction is a good skill (it’s not) is about the oldest example of “acshooly WHM is a good class” (it’s not) in this game

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Reminds me of the people who were trying to nerf Paladin's Hallowed Ground meanwhile Warrior was yucking it up with best damage, best self sustain, going Holmgang back to back on tank busters due to its much lower cooldown xD.