Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I've noticed that every time the discussion around Bloodwhetting comes up, you seem to go out of your way to try and shut down the discussion..

---

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.
I've also backed up my claims with real numbers, proof and actual facts to support my arguments. I also don't support holmgang, you seems to have a very selective memory for someone who can remember posts from the last 10 years. Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5.

Stop dodging solid arguments and twisting narratives for a second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.
I've also backed up my claims with real numbers, proof and actual facts to support my arguments. I also don't support holmgang, you seems to have a very selective memory for someone who can remember posts from the last 10 years. Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5.

Stop dodging solid arguments and twisting narratives for a second.

---

To be fair while I’m not getting into your argument with lyth a lot of your (and others) suggestions for how to not change BW but also “fix” healers basically amounts to making healers do something else while the tank continues to actually do all this healing they are currently doing which is not exactly a terribly popular solution in healers minds

I still fail to see how it’s ego on the healers part to not want to he shut out of their own role by tanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.

---

Repeating this is only proving that you're not interested in even understanding why people are upset. Healer ego, whatever that is, isn't part of the discussion. BW is poor design because it fights against how the game is intended to work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Repeating this is only proving that you're not interested in even understanding why people are upset. Healer ego, whatever that is, isn't part of the discussion. BW is poor design because it fights against how the game is intended to work.

---

BW isn't the only thing that needs a rework but tanks in general should be less homogenized..
40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job..
Tanks need a revamp kit to be less homogenized.. to the point where switching to other tank require analysis and learning the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BabyYoda

BW isn't the only thing that needs a rework but tanks in general should be less homogenized..
40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job..
Tanks need a revamp kit to be less homogenized.. to the point where switching to other tank require analysis and learning the job.

---

BW is far from the only problem that tanks and healers have, I agree on that point completely. It's still very hard to ignore a skill that singlehandedly trivializes a role that is supposed to be integral to the game in some of the most commonly run content though. Homogenization needs to be tackled but balancing is going to be important when doing that so that otherwise gameplay will be hollow.

On the topic of diversifying tanks, max HP increases would work well with reasonable amounts of self healing. If WAR took this as the core of its identity I think it would work well. It also has the potential for interesting synergy with healer skills. Increased HP means that there is more value from full heals like Benediction and heals that scale with percent like Essential Dignity get a large HP buffer to work with which could make maximizing their healing amount easier. Some intimidation effects might fit too. Think of WAR reducing incoming damage by dishing out damage and "terrifying" enemies with persistent attacks.

This is another attempt to move the goalpost, I've simply answered to Lyth saying "Being skillfull as a tank offers nothing".
I won't bite the bait, if you want to read my arguments you're free to check the other thread.

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing yet all fingers are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing in dungeon against pointless packs that will die anyway.
Nerfing a job won't make yours funnier, you'll still spam the same button when you'll wait for something to happen. Healers are doomed as long as XIV remains a number game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

This is another attempt to move the goalpost, I've simply answered to Lyth saying "Being skillfull as a tank offers nothing".
I won't bite the bait, if you want to read my arguments you're free to check the other thread.

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing yet all fingers are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing in dungeon against pointless packs that will die anyway.
Nerfing a job won't make yours funnier, you'll still spam the same button when you'll wait for something to happen. Healers are doomed as long as XIV remains a number game.

---

If you can’t see the difference between a red mage costing massive damage and MP to raise or a bard who has a single oGCD with a rather long CD and whatever BW is doing to the healer role like the other person says you obviously don’t actually care about the role imbalance because that’s a hilariously inept comparison

BW (and tank healing in general) warps the game at all content levels, tanks shouldn’t be self sufficient in savage but at this point they functionally are, as much as you think it wouldn’t actually being able to heal you WOULD make my job more fun. Because It means I’m pressing my HEALING buttons and not broil. BW isn’t just overpowered in dungeons (though it’s so hilariously overpowered in dungeons that it’s a complete joke) it’s disgustingly overpowered in raids as well, why do you need 1600 potency of healing on a 25 second CD, that’s not a tank CD, that’s a whole ass healer CD except the healer would have it on 5 times as long of a CD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing

---

Because RDM res doesn't invalidate healers, nor does BRD cleansing.

Quote:

---

are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing

---

Very rightly since it means healers don't have to heal.

I don't think it's hard to see at all, but if you want a deeper explanation RDM res at least comes at a DPS and MP cost. They don't freely raise players just by doing their rotation, and since they deal more damage than healers their priority is to keep DPSing and let the healer raise anyway. Even if that wasn't the case, res isn't a constant action and it isn't the basis of the healer role. BRD cleanse is on a cooldown and can only be used on one person. More importantly, cleansing is far, far less common than healing which is what healers should be doing most often outside of damage. BRD provides a small supplementary effect that comes into play only in a handful of cases and still doesn't negate the presence of healers because BRD is overwhelmed as soon as more than one player has a status effect.

BW on the other hand full heals WAR with no opportunity cost and makes the bulk of healer abilities (heals) worthless since the WAR, which is intended to be the focus of dungeon healing, almost never needs external heals. BW is the equivalent of "auto res all party members in range when dualcast is granted" or "Apply Warden's Paean effect to all party members while songs are active", except it's worse than that because it doesn't automate a niche healer task, it automate's the purpose of the healing role.

Ignoring broken skills instead of fixing them is how you kill fun.

RDM/SMN having raises and BRD having a 45s cooldown cleanse is nice flavour for each job that every so often can take a minor load off a healer, emphasis on minor, none of these things sidelines or replaces a healer. Similarly healers having party dps buffs or afflatus misery doesn't detract from dps jobs. Bloodwhetting does not fall into this category, there is nothing minor about Bloodwhetting, it doesn't help a healer - it sidelines the healer.

PLD having clemency, doesn't harm the healer role, PLD's (1200 heal potency) blade combo by itself isn't harmful to the healer role, holy sheltron's regen I find more questionable that is a lot especially paired with 15% mit and if I had my way I'd probably cut both the blade combo and sheltron regen down by about a third so it's a nice bump during the two minute cycle and a good additional mit on what is already a really short cooldown - HS is more limited by PLD's gauge than it is by it's internal cooldown.

I have a DRK main among my close friends, to paraphrase them "If I want to feel strong I play GNB or PLD. If I want to have FUN I play DRK. I only play WAR if I'm tired or lazy and want to be immortal with no skill." I don't think that's good tank design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

With all due respect, I've cleared raid content on WAR and DRK for much longer than either of you. I don't need to submit my curriculum vitae to post in here. We're also talking about role design rather than job design. Feel free to point out what competitive edge you think I would gain out of seeing these changes. If anything, I'm telling you outright that DPS offers significantly more raid value, and that I want this to change so that tanks can offer more impact.

If you still have something of substance to offer on the discussion points at hand, by all means. The current design of tanking is poor and offers little in the way of skill expression. Progressive inflation of mitigation and sustain toolkits is trivialising encounters. The focus should be on making button presses more meaningful and more nuanced. If anyone can do it, it's not worth doing. The status quo needs to change.

---

well you clearly never did HC/WP

if you did, then you're have very very weird take, but why not idc

"The current design of tanking is poor and offers little in the way of skill expression" I agree, but for both tanks/dps and healers

"Progressive inflation of mitigation and sustain toolkits is trivialising encounters" -> you clearly never did any criterion savage or ultimates in tanks to say this, it's a fact

"The focus should be on making button presses more meaningful and more nuanced" I agree, but it's the same for either tank-dps-healers, FF14 gameplay is "stand and let things resolve" not "adjust to what happens with your classes tools" like in wow, hopefully this will change with the 7.2+ encounters and 8.0 gameplay rework, but it will NEVER be on the same level as wow because of the shitty ff14 netcode

Even during HW, tanks/dps/healers were far from having "skill expression", hell even in WoW there is hardly a "skill expression" cause it's not a pvp game like LoL/Tekken or Counter Strike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BabyYoda

40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job.

---

Honestly? Because of scalability. 40% max and current HP is just a (slightly worse, as it can't provide immunity to debuffs it thereby ignores) 40% TBN. Such is better if incoming damage is less than 100% of the tank's normal max HP, worse if it's more. As such, it then becomes better for lower damage densities, worse for greater.

Because casual content tends never to reach such densities, it can basically just be considered altogether and consistently better in said casual content. So then you have a tank or two who are perfectly competitive in the hardest content but then moderately to significantly advantaged in all else. You give anyone else anything to compensate, such as a use case for Clemency or Cover even in a normal composition, and now the difficult content is faintly imbalanced. Because the larger the difference in scaling factors, the less possible it is to balance sustain for both the most intensive and least intensive content. Or, again, for fights differing in bursty vs. sustained damage.

It's not impossible to balance things despite that, but it requires either greater consistency in fight design and/or some definite ingenuity.

Oddly enough, though, probably the best way to deal with disparity between analogs... is to not have any direct analogs, and allow for more frequent and granular layering of defensives, all of which tends to allow jobs to be more distinct. You just can't balance things so tightly while manning only small variations on ~6 otherwise identical levers.

SMN/RDM that can raise 3 raises, useful in any content, which has been used in "no heal TOP" to invalidate a Healer mechanic, doesn't invalidate Healers.
BRD that can cast an oGCD Esuna in any content for the extremely rare occasions where it's required, doesn't invalidate the Healers.
WAR's BW that is only overpowered in dungeons against trash packs invalidate healers.

You've vilified Bloodwhetting into a Boogeyman, convincing even yourself and obscuring your judgement.
There's nothing more to add, I've already provided the data that shows the real problem. Even if I had a magic scroll of truth, you wouldn't acknowledge it.

This is why I don't want take part to any more debate about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I have a DRK main among my close friends, to paraphrase them "If I want to feel strong I play GNB or PLD. If I want to have FUN I play DRK. I only play WAR if I'm tired or lazy and want to be immortal with no skill." I don't think that's good tank design.

---

I'm aware fun is subjective but that has to be a very big lie. I can't see anyone having fun just doing 1 2 3 for 50 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've already provided the data that shows the real problem.

---

The real problem has been explained to you and you don't address it. Not acknowledging the issue doesn't make you right. Dungeons are frequently run and not everyone wants them to be trivial filler that you go through on autopilot. BW is far more annoying than caster raises or DPS with support tools. Of course all three can be problematic, but BW has been problematic enough to draw criticism. That fact is why we have this thread. I won't hold it against you that you have your own opinions, but those opinions will continue to be shot down if they are treated as fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

SMN/RDM that can raise 3 raises, useful in any content, which has been used in "no heal TOP" to invalidate a Healer mechanic, doesn't invalidate Healers.
BRD that can cast an oGCD Esuna in any content for the extremely rare occasions where it's required, doesn't invalidate the Healers.

---

The first has seen complaints. Just generally in threads the likes of "Casters being able to raise makes healers too dispensable", not one specifically named Bloodwhetting or about tanks in particular. Because sometimes topics divide.

There's also a large difference between covering a single GCD per couple minutes in the rare fight that can frequently be covered by an Assize, Medica III, or Rapture that would be been required anyways... and making even oGCDs redundant in dungeons.

Again, I've been with you entirely in maintaining flavor for Bloodwhetting, but there's a difference between a flavorful advantage and having up to 5x the output of counterparts, especially while having some 20-50% the output of others across the rest of the kit before that. That's not flavor. That's gluttony.

Look around these forums. How often are people complaining about a dungeon being a few second slower because people don't Peloton, or Sprint between trash mobs, or AOE properly. How many times are healers told that they should be able to heal with oGCD while doing damage with GCDs? The priority by most players running dungeons is to finish as soon as possible. Extreme/Savage is based on DPS checks. Less heals is more damage overall. Bloodwhetting means is that we finish faster since the healers can DPS more.

I see a lot of players still playing other tank classes. According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR. So, bloodwhetting isn't making other players NOT play other tanks.

There are 94 healers for every 100 tanks. Again, the balance seems reasonable. It isn't like tanks are waiting 30 minutes for a party waiting on a healer. So if healers don't like the situation... then wouldn't the wait be longer?

This just seems like more of an idle complaint for a forum than an actual issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR.

This just seems like more of an idle complaint for a forum than an actual issue.

---

The complaint is that Warrior's glut of sustain --especially where multi-target attacks are frequently possible-- effectively locks us into either dungeon sustain requirements being a joke since, without the others being equally able to meet all sustain requirements despite having only half the sustain producible across AoE pulls and just ~65 to ~85% Warrior's sustain in single-target, Warrior would then be able to leverage what is currently a massive excess of sustain towards rDPS, giving it a significant advantage in party output... or to that inevitable imbalance. And, in the meantime, that getting a Warrior means that one has basically no use for most of their healing actions --no matter how "free-- unless other players make repeated mistakes.

That has nothing to do with Warrior's popularity across the whole game, or even in dungeons alone, where the inability to make good use of its full kit is as much a turn-off for those who enjoy what tasks and challenges remain to tanking as such as it is an attractor for those who prefer something more easy mode.

I understand the complaint very well. What I'm saying... it doesn't matter.

The results are:

• Players are playing other tanks still
• Healers are still playing healers
• Parties are clearing dungeons/raids/etc

Even if BW is OP, it hasn't changed any of that. If people are backing out of parties because there is a GNB/DRK/PLD instead of a WAR, then there's an issue. Until then, this is just something to complain about with no actual "harm" done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

Even if BW is OP, it hasn't changed any of that. If people are backing out of parties because there is a GNB/DRK/PLD instead of a WAR, then there's an issue. Until then, this is just something to complain about with no actual "harm" done.

---

If someone's experience is negatively impacted, harm has been done in some form. Feedback doesn't need to be limited to only the most severe problems, and classifying a problem doesn't have to be limited to the criteria you've listed. Feelings on BW are also caught up in the wider opinion on the state of healing, which is hard to dismiss as a small nitpick. Many healers feel like the game isn't in a good spot and self sufficient tanks do nothing to alleviate that feeling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

If someone's experience is negatively impacted, harm has been done in some form. Feedback doesn't need to be limited to only the most severe problems, and classifying a problem doesn't have to be limited to the criteria you've listed. Feelings on BW are also caught up in the wider opinion on the state of healing, which is hard to dismiss as a small nitpick. Many healers feel like the game isn't in a good spot and self sufficient tanks do nothing to alleviate that feeling.

---

Technically, someone's experience could be negatively impacted if they play a healer and the tank forgets to hit tank stance. Or AFKs.

What a low bar you are suggesting.

I suppose SE should address that? Have tank stance always on. And if a player AFKs, the squadron/trust algorithm takes over and plays the job for them.

And it doesn't change the fact that if it was a problem... there would be much longer queues for tanks and DPS if healers didn't like their job to the point where they play a tank or DPS instead. But they aren't.

On my checklist earlier:
- When people quit parties because the tank is not a WAR
- Healers don't queue
- People can't clear dungeons

Then there is a problem worth doing something about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

snip.

---

I mean, if you want to go tell people the 8953 posts in the HealerStrike thread all amount to ‘nothing’ then thats on you, but idk man I think they might disagree lol. I’d say the fact that many people even bothered to post about it suggests there absolutely is an issue, and it has as much to do with tanks as it does healers themselves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

Technically, someone's experience could be negatively impacted if they player a healer and the tank forgets to hit tank stance. Or AFKs.

---

That's right, and if that were to happen they can provide feedback on their negative experience.

Quote:

---

What a low bar you are suggesting.

---

What bar is there to set? I think discussion on something like a game should be open.

Quote:

---

I suppose SE should address that - have tank stance always on. And if a player AFKs, the squadron/trust algorithm takes over and plays the job for them.

---

If it can be addressed then ideally it should be, although the first solution to pop up isn't necessarily the best one. Discussion of some kind should take place to gather more ideas and then refine them.

Quote:

---

And it doesn't change the fact that if it was a problem... there would be much longer queues for tanks and DPS if healers didn't like their job to the point where they play a tank or DPS instead. But they aren't.

---

I'm guessing this is going back to WAR? There is enough of a problem that people are talking about it and proposing solutions. WAR isn't going to make FF14 collapse, but it's making some of the design issues in the game obvious.

Quote:

---

On my checklist earlier:
- When people quit parties because the tank is not a WAR
- Healers don't queue
- People can't clear dungeons

Then there is a problem worth doing something about.

---

Your opinion is valid, but it's not universal.

Where are you getting that there is 94 healers for every 100 tanks

The last massive lucky brancho census said there was a whopping 53 healers for every 100 tanks

That’s not remotely balanced, that’s an outright embarrassment

considering how long you have to sit in PF waiting for a healer to join and how quickly a tank joins, I don't believe there is 94 healers per 100 tanks.

I don't think it matters, BW is only OP in 4 man trash pulls. That stuff dies so fast that nothing a tank or healer does matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dwodmots

I don't think it matters, BW is only OP in 4 man trash pulls. That stuff dies so fast that nothing a tank or healer does matters.

---

Healerless current-tier savage clears have entered the chat...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

Healerless current-tier savage clears have entered the chat...

---

I'll never understand people seeing these things as personal slights against their role of choice, as opposed to a praiseworthy achievement by players of incredible skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I'll never understand people seeing these things as personal slights against their role of choice, as opposed to a praiseworthy achievement by players of incredible skill.

---

I'm sorry, but... whynotboth.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I'm sorry, but... whynotboth.jpg

---

Seems weird.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I'll never understand people seeing these things as personal slights against their role of choice, as opposed to a praiseworthy achievement by players of incredible skill.

---

I don’t consider a kill that had 4 failed mechanics and 2 deaths but is still competitive on speed kills simply because tanks do more damage to be a grand achievement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t consider a kill that had 4 failed mechanics and 2 deaths but is still competitive on speed kills simply because tanks do more damage to be a grand achievement

---

Putting down on other peoples achievements isn't very cash money of you. The Scions would be very disappointed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

Healerless current-tier savage clears have entered the chat...

---

Healerless is an exception and wasn't because of Bloodwhetting.

It was because:
-3 Paladins could cover DPS and invuln tank buster/share
-Clemency, it was used contrary to what the video title implied.
-Massive delays and unoptimized DPS rotation to optimize the heal instead
-DPS were chosen among those who have a high capability of healing
-The group had players of an exceptional level who knows their jobs and perfectly planned their mitigation.

This isn't something you'll see in PF or related in any shape or form to Bloodwhetting. If you delete Clemency or Cover this is suddenly impossible to pull.

Similar to TOP, this is a different Boogeyman where the potential of jobs is pushed to the extreme even if it means losing DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

Healerless is an exception and wasn't because of Bloodwhetting.

It was because:
-3 Paladins could cover DPS and invuln tank buster/share
-Clemency, it was used contrary to what the video title implied.
-Massive delays and unoptimized DPS rotation to optimize the heal instead
-DPS were chosen among those who have a high capability of healing
-The group had players of an exceptional level who knows their jobs and perfectly planned their mitigation.

This isn't something you'll see in PF or related in any shape or form to Bloodwhetting. If you delete Clemency or Cover this is suddenly impossible to pull.

Similar to TOP, this is a different Boogeyman where the potential of jobs is pushed to the extreme even if it means losing DPS.

---

“Even if it means losing DPS”

Honey they had a top 100 competitive kill time, they weren’t struggling with DPS in the slightest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“Even if it means losing DPS”

Honey they had a top 100 competitive kill time, they weren’t struggling with DPS in the slightest

---

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers. I'm letting you math the rest.
I'm talking about individual performance, you're looking at party DPS. On top of that, remind yourself they are not your random Joes, they eat Ultimate content for breakfast.
This is similar to speedrun, making a mistake on purpose to gain benefit from it, which you wouldn't see in a "normal" setting.

And the rest of the list remains valid, you're nitpicking again, "honey".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers. I'm letting you math the rest.
I'm talking about individual performance, you're looking at party DPS. On top of that, remind yourself they are not your random Joes, they eat Ultimate content for breakfast.
This is similar to speedrun, making a mistake on purpose to gain benefit from it, which you wouldn't see in a "normal" setting.

And the rest of the list remains valid, you're nitpicking again, "honey".

---

So they were willing to take slight personal loses to facilitate better healing knowing the tanks do 30% more damage than the healers………just because and you don’t see that as a problem

Slight changes in individual performance of the dps jobs is meaningless when it can be compensated by the tanks doing 30% more damage just because they exist

“These aren’t random joes”, they literally had cactbot running the entire time, followed a genetic mit plan and still had 2 deaths. They are the definition of an average static Joe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So they were willing to take slight personal loses to facilitate better healing knowing the tanks do 30% more damage than the healers………just because and you don’t see that as a problem

Slight changes in individual performance of the dps jobs is meaningless when it can be compensated by the tanks doing 30% more damage just because they exist

“These aren’t random joes”, they literally had cactbot running the entire time, followed a genetic mit plan and still had 2 deaths. They are the definition of an average static Joe

---

I'm impressed at your boldness to call players who do world prog and speedclear "average Static Joe".
For your information, they also cleared E4S without healers, 2 years before tanks got EW extra sustain.

Anyway, I don't see the average joes doing M4S without healers. If it was indeed better to run 3 PLD and a WAR, PF and statics would do it. But they don't.
I don't even find any other parties who even attempted to do this, could you provide those run for me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

I'm impressed at your boldness to call players who do world prog and speedclear "average Static Joe".
For your information, they also cleared E4S without healers, 2 years before tanks got EW extra sustain.

Anyway, I don't see the average joes doing M4S without healers. If it was indeed better to run 3 PLD and a WAR, PF and statics would do it. But they don't.
I don't even find any other parties who even attempted to do this, could you provide those run for me?

---

Nobody else does these runs because the vast majority stick to the limitations of PF and DF seeing it as simpler.

We all know for example running any non DRK tank in a dungeon with 3 DPS is objectively better than running it with a healer. That’s just a straight fact. Yet why do 99% of people do dungeon runs with a healer……..because DF says you need a healer. You can up your damage by 6k subbing out your 2 healers for 2 more tanks in M4S and your mitigation plan is tighter but not TOP healerless tight, 99% of people still run with 2 healers…………because PF defaults to a standard comp and strat videos don’t exist for these types of clears by people like joonbob.

The only reason this doesn’t become standard is because there hasn’t been that sort of push that shoves it into the mainstream. If they made a mechanic tomorrow that frustrated PF like light rampart then a creator like joonbob released a new “braindead” strat video where you could sub the healers for 4 tanks short mitting the DPS during the mechanic and also wiping out the DPS check by gaining a free 6k DPS healers would be out on their asses faster than yoshi p could buff succor thinking that would solve the problem. It’s basically a wider version of the problem SGE had in 6.0 when the entire community was like “SGE’s shields are really weak if a mechanic can be shield cheesed SGE will be gone from PF”. In asphodelos there was no shield cheesable mechanics, but DSR had one, you can overmit meteors and just remove half of phase 2. And what do you know SGE got instantly deleted from DSR parties exactly as predicted when it became more convenient to use another classes overpowered skill than it was to continue to equally tolerate both shield healers

The current tenuous state shows how overpowered the tanks are and healers hold on functionally by nature of there just not being a mechanic that shoves PF to actually embrace the change of dumping the healers. But if it comes (and the current trend of how fast and easily we are clearing new floors without healers as time goes by shows it is coming) then PF will just close out healers

PS if it’s true they cleared E4S without healers while current that is an achievement. I was probably a bit overly rude there (especially as I know they are more talented than me) but I genuinely didn’t see something incredibly praise worthy in that M4 clear, it was cactbot infested, sloppy and their posted mit plan really isn’t that tight, it genuinely reads like an Omni blue parsing static average clear

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Nobody else does these runs because the vast majority stick to the limitations of PF and DF seeing it as simpler.

PS if it’s true they cleared E4S without healers while current that is an achievement. I was probably a bit overly rude there (especially as I know they are more talented than me) but I genuinely didn’t see something incredibly praise worthy in that M4 clear, it was cactbot infested, sloppy and their posted mit plan really isn’t that tight, it genuinely reads like an Omni blue parsing static average clear

---

Savage don't use DF, they use PF and can freely manipulate the roles. I also have to see advanced static doing this to get easier reclear, but they don't. It's only that group who did this feat.
I only read you doing a lot of mental gymnastic to avoid the conclusion that this group is an exception among exceptions.

Considering they're also behind the No-Healer TOP and TOP mitig plan is the tighest we've ever seen, I can confirm to you that this group is a complete different class of players, even with any 3rd party.
Raidwide used to hit so hard PLD and MCH were very popular because of the extra mitigation, despite them being among the least popular jobs in high-end content.

What you call mental gymnastics I call “trying to fit within tank mains ridiculously specific criteria for what actually justifies tanks being overpowered” especially when you can’t even be consistent. You on the rebalance WAR thread argued bloodwhetting is fine because you say it only warps dungeon content, then when something like this is done it’s also fine because it’s not PF standard. Either tanks healing warps all content in which your justification for BW being okay to be OP in dungeons falls apart or tanks are only OP in dungeons which means this clear shouldn’t have been possible. It’s hilarious to me how many different requirements you have to meet before you will even consider the idea your role is overpowered and warping the game design

This never should have been remotely possible. Full stop. Bringing no healers should wipe you within 30 seconds like bringing no tanks does. A feat like this being possible shows how ridiculously low the healing needed is and how strong the tanks healing is (and don’t even bother with the “it’s an encounter design problem just up damage” because tanks will go right back to complaining they have to rely on the healer). Show me a week 2 tankless clear of M4S. It’s a “great feat” isn’t it, not a representation of how broken the trinity is, nooooo it’s an achievement that can be done if you try hard enough.

If you don’t want me playing mental gymnastics trying to fit your ridiculous criteria then stop having ridiculous criteria. Tanks are overpowered and healers are garbage. That’s always been my point. I don’t particularly care about these people, I don’t see this as a fear worthy of praise. To me this is just having all the problems of my role shoved into my face while tank mains tie the goal posts to a rocket on what constitutes a valid example of tanks being overpowered

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

They replaced 2 healers with 2 tanks. Tanks deals 3~4k more damage than healers.

---

So yeah, replacing healers with Tanks is a better option. If only they made it impossible to clear without healers and made healers do as much damage as tanks so dropping them for extra dps wouldn't be a thing sadly these two things are impossible to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I'll never understand people seeing these things as personal slights against their role of choice, as opposed to a praiseworthy achievement by players of incredible skill.

---

It is an achievement for the players, while also being the result of poor game design. That you can optimize healers out of a fight isn't exciting for me when I want to play healer.