Red mage 7.0 Wishlist

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

"Welcome 20.0. A new thing we are adding to red mage is... a new finisher! So now you have a 17 hit finisher combo!"

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Should I be concerned that I can see this actually happening >.>

Honestly, and this is going to be a very unpopular opinion that is rife with balance issues, I wish they would allow RDM to switch between a white and black magic stance giving benefits of each. Black magic stance could focus very heavily on damage replacing any utility and healing with DPS tools while White magic stance could give us even more utility in addition to vercure and raise being available. I feel like it would allow for some kind of player expression with the job but I can already see how whichever stance gave the higher DPS output would be the only one people allowed RDM to play as in groups.

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Originally Posted by kayll

Fix caster HP, and RDM HP especially seeing as they have no personally mitigation, there is basically no argument's for their continued lower HP pools.
Being the only one to die to unavoidable raid wide damage is getting really old.
The fact that I want the level 100 capstone ability to be a personal shield is depressing.

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I agree,

Now that I've done Variant Dungeons, it is very plain to see. I've already seen it in normal dungeons, raids, and alliance raids. My SMN can stand in there way better than my RDM. It's blatantly noticeable and it should not be that way.

That's one of the areas RDM should stand out from the other Mage DPS jobs... and it quite frankly just doesn't. This part really needs a boost. I get that the Devs are never gonna give it damage and I'm ok with that. but it should stick out in other ways since it was supposed to be a combination of WAR/BLM/WHM but weaker in all of those.... It is not meeting that criteria other than the lower damage.

It meets it well on the BLM and WHM... but is failing to live up to the WAR side in terms of staying power in melee... that needs to be corrected.

Now I want to put a hot fact out here that most of you, for sure aren't seeing or realizing. Self-mitigation is redundant outside of all content other than expert roulette.
Self mitigation is redundant, it doesn't negate death in any situation in which you have the slightest coordination with a healer and or tank. Every mechanic and attack *in the game* has a mitigation threshold. You meet the threshold using group mitigation. If you do not meet it, someone in the party dies. Self-mitigation is redundant because mitigation thresholds are the bare minimun expectation for surviving an AOE and are balanced around players not self-mitigating.

This is a fact ladies and gentlemen of this forum. You may not agree with it, but it is how people who clear hardcore content know exactly what moves to pop. You plan the mit, and then execute the completion of the mechanic.

Sumn personal mit, BLM personal mit, all DPS personal mit. Is redundant, a literal waste of button space.

I challenge you to come up with a single mechanic in the entire game that requires it, (spoiler) there are none. Because they are all balanced to be handled without it.

Regardless, I will add it to the post as something red mages think would be fun to use. Is it needed? It is not, never has been, never will be.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Don’t you see how pointless this line of thinking is?

I mean, it’s a fact that there isn’t a single mechanic in the entire game that actually requires you to have more than one damage button either. Technically they can put our entire dps potency into a single ability and that’s all we have. There isn’t a single mechanic in the entire game that even requires healers - everything has been cleared without them.

Are all damage buttons except one ‘a literal waste of button space’? All four healer jobs? Technically they could remove them all entirely and the game would still be theoretically clearable. But it wouldn’t be much fun now, would it?

I mean I don’t even feel strongly about whether Red Mage has self-mitigation or not, I just think that approaching any job design with ‘optimisation’ in mind is ultimately going to end badly (See: all jobs currently lol)

Just because something is technically true in certain circumstances doesn’t make it sacrosanct. Trying to design the game around absolute optimisations because ‘the best way = the only way’ is exactly what’s made the gameplay suffer. Because sooner or later ‘fun’ will become an obstacle to optimisation, and what then? We end up with a whole bunch of toned-down, simplistic jobs that are just copy/pastes of each other with different aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Vejj

The Red Mage is currently playing really comfortably and not as sweaty as all the melee classes. What the Red Mage really doesn't need is a new finisher or new OCD abilities. Much more Quality of Life additions like a melee attack that doesn't consume 5/5 mana but instead stacks, and as suggested by someone else, deals more damage when a certain amount of Dark and Light mana is reached. Let it still be 5/5, but they shouldn't be consumed.

I would also like it if the damage from our dashes and jumps were removed, so that they no longer necessarily enter our rotation, and we can really use them as intended - as a combination for our melee finisher.

Otherwise, provide opportunities for us to build White and Dark Mana more quickly so that after all the openers and activation of any cooldowns, we don't completely plummet in damage output.

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It seems a lot are sharing a similar sentiment. More finishers being added to the combo is largely being seen as less of a necessity. I like how you mentioned the movement skills should not deal damage. I agree. They add more ogcd clutter for miniscule damage gains. In otherwords, movement skills don't feel good as damage skills, yet for some reason they are. They would be much better as utility and clearing their potencies could lessen the Ogcd clutter in the opener.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Don’t you see how pointless this line of thinking is?

I mean, it’s a fact that there isn’t a single mechanic in the entire game that actually requires you to have more than one damage button either. Technically they can put our entire dps potency into a single ability and that’s all we have. There isn’t a single mechanic in the entire game that even requires healers - everything has been cleared without them.

Are all damage buttons except one ‘a literal waste of button space’? All four healer jobs? Technically they could remove them all entirely and the game would still be theoretically clearable. But it wouldn’t be much fun now, would it?

I mean I don’t even feel strongly about whether Red Mage has self-mitigation or not, I just think that approaching any job design with ‘optimisation’ in mind is ultimately going to end badly (See: all jobs currently lol)

Just because something is technically true in certain circumstances doesn’t make it sacrosanct. Trying to design the game around absolute optimisations because ‘the best way = the only way’ is exactly what’s made the gameplay suffer. Because sooner or later ‘fun’ will become an obstacle to optimisation, and what then? We end up with a whole bunch of toned-down, simplistic jobs that are just copy/pastes of each other with different aesthetics.

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You are implying that I am saying that this is a way of thinking, or something applicable to all aspects of the game. It isn't my logic that is pointless here, it is personal mitigation. It is fun to press it, but the game isn't balanced for you doing it- All Red mages should already know this. If you alone die to a mechanic hitting a group of people, so many buttons must have not been pressed by healers, tanks, and even dps. Group mitigation is all that is viable in this game, personal mitigation does not off-set that.

Personal mitigation is redundant. I did not say, or allude to dps moves, healers and tanks as also being so. Personal mitigation will not keep you alive through a mechanic that requires 40% mitigation from the group, when its only receiving 20% mitigation from the group. Basically, you think it may be keeping you alive, but chances are, as a dps personal mitigation never is what keeps you alive.

Clearly a lot of energy is being put here shaking our fists asking "why don't we have personal mit". When more energy should be put into "why do we honestly think we should have it?"

Its an idea, for sure. I just don't see where the bandwagons going with that one.

If every class in the game has a personal mitigation, we as players, would have to be ready to accept that they will put mechanics in the game requiring all players to press them at once.

Because that would be the outcome. If you enjoy watching raiding, do you think it would be fun watching 8 players press personal mit for 1 mechanic to meet the threshold and then 1 dies because they forgot and then be forced to pull again. Not me! It would suck even more being that player!

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Self-mitigation is redundant outside of all content other than expert roulette.
Self mitigation is redundant, it doesn't negate death in any situation in which you have the slightest coordination with a healer and or tank.

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Can you tell me why if you look at overall parses on fflogs, RDM has the highest amount of deaths on every fight for savages?
Even with them enabling more deaths to other classes because they can raise them?
Do you think its possible because RDM inherently has the least effective HP in the game for both magical and physical attacks due to nature of being a caster on top of not having any sort of personal mitigation?

I don't think we can form any causal links using that data. If two classes who don't have personal mit moves are performing different in death percentages for a given encounter or phase i'd be inclined to lean more towards what you originally said about durability, hp values and resistances. Sorry that I didn't address that in your original post, that is something I too think should be changed. I don't personally think casters should have radically differing HP or resistance values than roles other than tank.

Using the statistics you mentioned, we could be asking ourselves a lot of questions about why classes die more than others. Sample sizes, clears vs wipes, party distribution, its tough -I really would like to see someone map out one mechanic from one fight and try and find something other than anecdotes or personal opinion beyond just setting the tabs to their very limited options on the site. It forms a graph and gives a percentage but doesn't really give an answer, at least as far as i've seen.

Listen,
I added a survival category to the OP. Please let me know if you guys think there should be more changes. Hopefully it can address and reflect all concerns with that area of red mages.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

I don't think we can form any causal links using that data. If two classes who don't have personal mit moves are performing different in death percentages for a given encounter or phase i'd be inclined to lean more towards what you originally said about durability, hp values and resistances. Sorry that I didn't address that in your original post, that is something I too think should be changed. I don't personally think casters should have radically differing HP or resistance values than roles other than tank.

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Yeah I don't actually want a personal shield for our capstone, I'm just pretty fed up over overkills of 500 damage, despite no one in my party making a mistake.
If they haven't fixed HP/Resistances values by now, I don't have high hopes, and there is currently no way to justify the massive differences they have currently.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Now I want to put a hot fact out here that most of you, for sure aren't seeing or realizing. Self-mitigation is redundant outside of all content other than expert roulette.
Self mitigation is redundant, it doesn't negate death in any situation in which you have the slightest coordination with a healer and or tank. Every mechanic and attack *in the game* has a mitigation threshold. You meet the threshold using group mitigation. If you do not meet it, someone in the party dies. Self-mitigation is redundant because mitigation thresholds are the bare minimun expectation for surviving an AOE and are balanced around players not self-mitigating.

This is a fact ladies and gentlemen of this forum. You may not agree with it, but it is how people who clear hardcore content know exactly what moves to pop. You plan the mit, and then execute the completion of the mechanic.

Sumn personal mit, BLM personal mit, all DPS personal mit. Is redundant, a literal waste of button space.

I challenge you to come up with a single mechanic in the entire game that requires it, (spoiler) there are none. Because they are all balanced to be handled without it.

Regardless, I will add it to the post as something red mages think would be fun to use. Is it needed? It is not, never has been, never will be.

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Hot fact, that's incorrect.

That is way too many assumptions. First of all you assume... the healer or tank is going to be doing that. You assume... that someone is covering you. You assume... you're not going to end up outside the healers radius and be able to do that.

That is not what happens in reality...

That's what happens in a perfect world. And I can tell you one thing it definitely doesn't apply to Alliance Raids. They are chaotic and f'd up half the time. You can't control what happens there.

And I can tell you now that Personal Mit as you call it has saved my az a million times on SMN. I don't have to worry about anything like that. I have two of them, and almost never out of them, unless I really screw up. Not so on RDM. I have to constantly Vercure myself. And in your words in a Raid that is going to cost you DPS.

RDM is actually behind the other mage jobs in staying power in combat when it clearly should be one of it's strengths over and above the others.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That is way too many assumptions. First of all you assume... the healer or tank is going to be doing that.

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You are absolutely allowed to assume that the tanks and healers will be doing their jobs when you balance duties. That's the whole point of forcing tanks and healers in the party composition.

And every bit of content in this game that actually cares about job balance is balanced around the idea that it can be cleared with the DDs providing no self-healing and no self-mitigation because there are tanks and healers who are expected to provide enough to cover the minimum requirements for surviving the unavoidable damage in any given fight.

If people die because they failed to avoid avoidable damage, that's a player problem, not a "this job needs personal mitigation" problem.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Now I want to put a hot fact out here that most of you, for sure aren't seeing or realizing. Self-mitigation is redundant outside of all content other than expert roulette.
Self mitigation is redundant, it doesn't negate death in any situation in which you have the slightest coordination with a healer and or tank. Every mechanic and attack *in the game* has a mitigation threshold. You meet the threshold using group mitigation. If you do not meet it, someone in the party dies. Self-mitigation is redundant because mitigation thresholds are the bare minimun expectation for surviving an AOE and are balanced around players not self-mitigating.

This is a fact ladies and gentlemen of this forum. You may not agree with it, but it is how people who clear hardcore content know exactly what moves to pop. You plan the mit, and then execute the completion of the mechanic.

Sumn personal mit, BLM personal mit, all DPS personal mit. Is redundant, a literal waste of button space.

I challenge you to come up with a single mechanic in the entire game that requires it, (spoiler) there are none. Because they are all balanced to be handled without it.

Regardless, I will add it to the post as something red mages think would be fun to use. Is it needed? It is not, never has been, never will be.

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This is objectively correct, but it's also objectively a non-sequitur if we're interested in gameplay.

No tool whose use is not yet forced is required, true. But, every tool that is generated can be give a potential use... while tools trimmed or precluded obviously... cannot.

And, perhaps more importantly still, that use does not have to be reduced to, as you've hinted, a single party-wide-coordinated use in order to forgo a healer GCD in Succor or EukProg where the party would otherwise die and every Broil/Dosis matters. It could as easily come from fights having many more small instances of avoidable damage and to be used as a personal recovery tool, or even an uptime-greeding tool, for when free external spot-healing tools are depleted and/or the timing of that damage taken would not be recoverable in time.

Does any non-tank NEED personal mitigation tools? No. Can one's total decision making, sense of agency, and variety of gameplay met within a given fight benefit from having them? Yes, most definitely.

Increasing the instances of (avoidable) damage and granting some modest self-heals/shields accordingly (that are, due to that increase, not sufficient to degrade the healer experience) may not "require" those self-saves to be used (though, if they would otherwise languish on CD, they should at least replace some ST-spot-heals), but they create a new optimization challenge, felt more deeply for those who cannot necessarily dodge every bit of damage but still experienced even by those who do. Such is a net deepening of gameplay.

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Now, that's not necessarily conferrable to every type of self-save, though. There's a serious issue of diminishing returns there. For instance, if I could use Manaward to 0 a knockback after receiving a Succor/EuP and thereby nullify it completely... but I have Arm's Length that doesn't depend on anything else for that, Arm's Length is just going to become the non-contextual, no-coordination-required mechanics-canceller, which in turn may also remove the point of banking Thundercloud or Swiftcast, etc. for that mechanic. Many such tools can go too far, erasing more depth than they could possible add. So, don't take the above "if it adds to gameplay, there's merit in adding it" as a blank cheque to be used without considering net impact.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Now I want to put a hot fact out here that most of you, for sure aren't seeing or realizing. Self-mitigation is redundant outside of all content other than expert roulette.
Self mitigation is redundant, it doesn't negate death in any situation in which you have the slightest coordination with a healer and or tank. Every mechanic and attack *in the game* has a mitigation threshold. You meet the threshold using group mitigation. If you do not meet it, someone in the party dies. Self-mitigation is redundant because mitigation thresholds are the bare minimun expectation for surviving an AOE and are balanced around players not self-mitigating.

This is a fact ladies and gentlemen of this forum. You may not agree with it, but it is how people who clear hardcore content know exactly what moves to pop. You plan the mit, and then execute the completion of the mechanic.

Sumn personal mit, BLM personal mit, all DPS personal mit. Is redundant, a literal waste of button space.

I challenge you to come up with a single mechanic in the entire game that requires it, (spoiler) there are none. Because they are all balanced to be handled without it.

Regardless, I will add it to the post as something red mages think would be fun to use. Is it needed? It is not, never has been, never will be.

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Hot take, this is how you optimize the fun out of a game. Only allow abilities that suit the highest level of play and eschew all aspects of design that don't cater to balance at the highest difficulty. Don't worry about what would be fun or give a job an identity, only design for a short encounter against a single enemy in an arena and all other content does not matter.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Hot take, this is how you optimize the fun out of a game. Only allow abilities that suit the highest level of play and eschew all aspects of design that don't cater to balance at the highest difficulty. Don't worry about what would be fun or give a job an identity, only design for a short encounter against a single enemy in an arena and all other content does not matter.

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This is part of the reason why I think that the 2 minute meta is bad for the game overall. It requires everything to be designed within this small time frame and every job that existed before it will have to be gutted to end up fitting into that bubble.

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Originally Posted by Rychu

This is part of the reason why I think that the 2 minute meta is bad for the game overall. It requires everything to be designed within this small time frame and every job that existed before it will have to be gutted to end up fitting into that bubble.

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To be fair, jobs being advantaged even over others of equal raw DPS for being able to deal their damage in tight bursts goes back to 2.4. It's not new.

All that has changed over time is the degree to which kits are tailored to reduce the disparity between nDPS and DPS (raw DPS vs. in-party-contexts-DPS) by making damage profiles more similar.

We could as easily have all kits just spread out their damage further despite 2 minute buffs. And we'd still be max-bursting inside of 15s windows (or, if we were to go back to pre-EW, within 10s windows), even if we had just one raid buff or those raid buffs were staggered.

The context has not forced the kit design; we are as bursty as we are not so much because of that context (for which we otherwise could just compensate less advantaged jobs with greater raw dps, especially if we have no plans for mainstay 4-man Savage content or are okay with adjusting how raid buffs work to reduce their scaling with party size) as simply because the devs seem to think that we believe that it is more fun to have periods of dense action than to have more constant moderate action.

Again, the "personal mitigation as a capstone" thing was a joke.

While I do agree it would help slightly, it wouldn't feel great having to press it on RDM either seeing how weaving it between Dualcast would feel bad, but I guess at least you wouldn't die when you used it.
But what about after you have used it?

I'd much prefer if the HP among all classes except tanks were equalized to avoid the situation entirely.
Seeing how many more Physical damage raidwides have been in EW making casters even more at risk, If they continue making more mechanics like that, I'd like the HP to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Hot take, this is how you optimize the fun out of a game.

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Sieya, this is clearly a reminder for myself that it isn't always what I say that incites a response, it is how I say it. I'm not trying to sway anyones opinion that this was like a hot shot optimization. I could have stated it differently, and I apologize. Personal mitigation is currently not too great as whole concept.(yet! who knows, it one day could change!). Optimizing all fun out of the game isn't the point of the wishlist, so don't feel discouraged, please still recommend what you would think is fun if they added it to the class in 7.0. :D

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This is objectively correct, but it's also objectively a non-sequitur if we're interesting in gameplay.

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Personal mitigation might seem like it offers an ocean of depth, and optimization, and identity, but there isn't very strong evidence supporting that it really does.

The depth of gameplay involves assuming that the bare minimum mitigation wasn't going to be used by your party. So it isn't something reactive, like some sort of skill shot, it is literally a player not trusting that bare minimum mitigations are being used, before a mechanic goes off. Either that, or you're pressing it in situations where it isn't beneficial and is just redundant with group mit.

I just don't quite agree that it is something fun, or nuanced.

Who knows though, open world solo content might get harder, personal mitigation might be a saving grace in that content and everyone could be happy. Who knows, maybe it could be a button that "negates 1 vuln" instead.

Currently for me, it is kind of a nothing burger. The majority of the times you don't need it, doesn't yet justify the times you could need it. I would rather have just increased HP and resistances. I can't deny its not something people are passionate about though, and that it doesn't deserve a spot on the wishlist.

Shurrikhan, sorry if this doesn't entirely address your argument. You're eloquent almost to a fault my friend, so apologies if I didn't grasp it all. I am going to try an not be non-sequitur for both our sakes moving forward :D.

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Originally Posted by Rychu

This is part of the reason why I think that the 2 minute meta is bad for the game overall. It requires everything to be designed within this small time frame and every job that existed before it will have to be gutted to end up fitting into that bubble.

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Gutted you say? What would you personally bring back for red mage, from the time before this 2 minute meta? I know the streamers and twitter are very charged about this topic right now, aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Currently for me, it is kind of a nothing burger.

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That's fair. I can often be accused of making a bit too much out of mere potential / future-proofing. That said:

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The depth of gameplay involves assuming that the bare minimum mitigation wasn't going to be used by your party.

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This is where we see things differently, and it doesn't come down to trust or the like nearly so much as simply fight design and the players intended to be involved in it.

If you can reasonably expect that every player will dodge every threat that is not an unavoidable party-wide, you'd be right. But I don't think that's generally so reasonable an expectation as to deny players some agency over those times when that will not be the case.

Consider:

• Almost no fights actually need oGCD heals, so long as players make no mistakes and Solace/Rapture can be saved for what movement requirements would truly prevent casted heals (while SCH pre-barriers and AST Lightspeeds and Eukrasian-Scholar wonders what cast times even are). But, we do nonetheless have those oGCD heals, and having the ability to spot-compensate for those mistakes not only offers further agency for those situations but also gives healers more to track and just generally "do" in any and all situations.
  
  
• Similarly, having some degree of burst damage available to healers, be it through above-filler-ppgcd spells or oGCD actions, feels better than not having them. They're virtually never necessary, and they aren't even part of the healer's "role", exactly, but it feels better having some than not.

Personal mitigation would not be far off from either of those two examples, except for one issue: This game's AoE heals are overpowered af. Were AoE heals partly split (200p + 1200p split over all affectable allies in range, to a max of 800p each) or by whatever other means turned into smart-heals at a far weaker maximum total potency, then non-tank personal mitigation wouldn't feel nearly so redundant or lackluster (and healing would feel better in general, to boot).

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Who knows, maybe it could be a button that "negates 1 vuln" instead.

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A bit of a tangent, but that is a direction I'd particularly not want to see mitigation go towards; a 30% self-shield or 30% mitigation buff, for instance, can both have that same effect as having negating 1 vuln (except in that it doesn't also save you from later hits) but can also fit other uses like greeding a weaker AoE for uptime, etc. I prefer that versatility.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Gutted you say? What would you personally bring back for red mage, from the time before this 2 minute meta? I know the streamers and twitter are very charged about this topic right now, aren't they?

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Haha guess that was pretty confusing since this is a Red Mage thread, sorry I should have clarified in the original post I made.

Red Mage actually transitioned pretty easily between Shadowbringers to Endwalker since it's burst lined up anyways. I was referring to every other job in the game that had to be changed to fit into the 2 minute meta. Paladin is an easy example of a job that was really good at sustained damage but because it didn't fit into the 2 minute meta, had to be mini-reworked to remove the sustained damage aspect that it was known for.

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Originally Posted by Rychu

Paladin is an easy example of a job that was really good at sustained damage but because it didn't fit into the 2 minute meta, had to be mini-reworked to remove the sustained damage aspect that it was known for.

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Tangent, but... "Sustained damage" isn't a perk. There's no value in being "good at" sustained damage. The things nearest that that may have actual benefit are merely either advantages in fight-length DPS, at least in certain types of comps (e.g., those with minimal buff value), or lesser variation in that overall damage over variation in context (such as to fight length or composition).

Jobs can have a lead in typically-produced nDPS (or "damage irrespective of buffs") or contextually in aDPS ("damage in practice," wherein the degree of buffs available and exploitation of them through burst can make large differences), but ultimately only burst offers further value than just how much damage you fit into the time between the fight's start and end; sustain does not.

That's not to say that all jobs should be equally bursty or the like, but for a job to be less bursty, it would generally need something else/more in compensation; otherwise, the same raw damage just means less actual / in-practice damage.

And that, in turn becomes a bit of a can of worms for balancing, as you end up with less coordination-dependent jobs just being outright superior into some turning point and, like Dancers' (who want to be matched with a "selfish" DPS for greatest total party value between themselves and their partner) compositional obligations, you end up splitting comps into Minimal Coordination (low burst and low buffs, and therefore less party damage coming from exploitation of buffs) vs. Maximal Coordination (the opposite), where Minimal Coordination would punish deaths and desync significantly less.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Sieya, this is clearly a reminder for myself that it isn't always what I say that incites a response, it is how I say it. I'm not trying to sway anyones opinion that this was like a hot shot optimization. I could have stated it differently, and I apologize. Personal mitigation is currently not too great as whole concept.(yet! who knows, it one day could change!). Optimizing all fun out of the game isn't the point of the wishlist, so don't feel discouraged, please still recommend what you would think is fun if they added it to the class in 7.0. :D

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I did earlier in this thread, but I know it is very unlikely since it would not only change fundamentally the way RDM plays, but could very easily become an unbalance mess of a job. Stance switching between a black and white magic stance similar to the PvP actions of RDM with white magic having a heavy focus on support abilities and black magic having a focus on personal damage, meaning it would have no group buffs or other support abilities while using black magic. Unless it is balanced in such a way that the support offered in the white magic stance equated to the same DPS in black magic then in group play you would only be using the one stance. I do feel it would give the job some kind of player expression though and much more versatility.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Sprint should not consume dual cast

Do not give red mage a dot.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Do not give anymore OGCD moves. There is currently too many OGCDs in the opener. Another OGCD would certainly result in a triple weave in the opener.

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It depends how it’s implemented. If it’s just yet-another regular ogcd like contre-sixte, Fleche, Displacement and Engagement, sure I agree.
I wouldn’t mind a rework of Displacement, Engagement and Corps-a-Crops. I feel like Displacement and Corps à Corps shouldn’t deal any damage. And I wouldn’t mind Engagement to be replaced by a different ability. I wouldn’t mind a new “crystal like” ogcd.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Give red mage a way of building resource during down time. Other than manafication.

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I don’t feel like this is necessary.
BLM gets mana back and Xenoglossy
SMN gets closer to Bahamut/Phoenix
RDM gets closer to Manafication and their ogcd recover
Feels fine to me. VerFire/Earth proc are long enough that unless the boss is out for a really long time, the proc should still be up.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Maintain the current flow
A very common view point is that less is more when it comes to 7.0 changes. Many are agreeing that the class has a very sturdy foundation and flow. It doesn't need an overhaul. Any 7.0 changes shouldn't be too drastic, the rotation that was established in Endwalker is great the way that it is.

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The flow Is good, I do feel a few changes are necessary and raising the ceiling a little bit wouldn’t hurt. SMN and RDM feel really … “simple” compared to BLM when it comes to optimizing your cast and rotation for a fight. Not saying they should be as difficult as BLM, but “a bit more” wouldn’t hurt.
My 2 personal wishlist would be
- You need to alternate between VerFlare/Holy as it is weird that those two spells are the only one not affected by the “balance” theme of the RDM. A simple “your next Flare/Holy (opposite) deal 25% more damage” would be enough to ensure the swap.
- The downtime after each verwind/thunder feels really bad as it breaks the flow of cast. We basically spend half of our time doing nothing waiting for the gcd to refresh. I would like the recast time of verThunder/Wind to be reduced to 2.0 or even 1.5s. (although that might be too short)

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Downtime[/B]
-Give some way of building resource when the boss is absent in order to meet the same standards as the other two casters during content where bosses leave for prolonged periods of time.

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Perhaps making vercure apply a regen buff to the RDM to both mana (if cast in combat, we don’t need precast before fight). This way RDM could gain a few black/white mp during downtime and it wouldn’t add “yet another” button for something extremely situational

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Mobility
Red mage is currently relying on sword combo, their burst, for movement. Where other classes gained utility and quality of life changes to help them move this expansion, red mage is left having to use it's burst to obtain similar mobility.

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RDM already have a lot of “omnipresent” mobility, but as you pointed out, it lacks “ongoing mobility”. It’s basically the opposite of the BLM. The BLM could, if he wanted, have 30s of instant cast but then have very little movement.
Overall, with Thunder/Wind, Reprise and Melee combo, RDM mobility is rather solide for about 90% of cases. Managing long movement as a RDM is literally the only technical thing about the job. I don’t think it would serve the job well. When Reprise didn’t exist, I was a fierce advocate of giving RDM something for prolonged movement, they have one now. The melee combo can now be stored granting 6 instant (more like 5 in term of time). Yes, it’s a burst, and so is Xenoglossy and they’re part of the BLM movement tool.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

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Damage
There is a common belief that red mage's placement in terms of dps and support output isn't landing it in balanced spot in an 8-man team when compared to the other casters.

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Y.P recently confirmed that more difficult job should do more dps to reward. This is tricky considering FF14 raiding scene is all about DPS when dealing with harder content. Making BLM an obvious choice. Knowing this, I feel like RDM would benefit from being a bit harder to play if this would grant him access to a bit better DPS. Support is good, but it really falls short when people start to overgear. I feel like verraise hurts RDM more than it helps, often placing it as the “rez-bot-support”. RDM isn’t a support, it’s a DPS.
I personally feel like all caster should have access to a rez. An instant with a 2min CD. This would elleviate the “support burden” the RDM has. (as well as healers stuck in a no SMN/RDM party)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tangent, but... "Sustained damage" isn't a perk. There's no value in being "good at" sustained damage. The things nearest that that may have actual benefit are merely either advantages in fight-length DPS, at least in certain types of comps (e.g., those with minimal buff value), or lesser variation in that overall damage over variation in context (such as to fight length or composition).

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Oh yeah I didn't mean it like a perk or a benefit, more as just a different option. Like I think it's a little unfair to people who aren't a fan of bursting classes that there is quite literally no options for them.

And this is coming from someone that is perfectly happy with Red Mage's rotation as is which fits perfectly in the 2 minute meta

what are ppl thought if you get an upgraded reprise that does not cost blk/white gauge once you done 3 melee. just like how you start the magic combo, even if you mess up the sequence order.

the upgrade reprise then can be use anytime before the next 3 melee combo before it gets overwritten.
this is the extra movement ability other than the dev adding yet another charge to acceleration instead.

obviously the potency need to be tune so that its worthwhile to use or maybe have an option to spend it during burst too?
well as long its not useless and maybe not too powerful too???

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

what are ppl thought if you get an upgraded reprise that does not cost blk/white gauge once you done 3 melee. just like how you start the magic combo, even if you mess up the sequence order.

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I am actually pretty on board with successful melee combos giving a stack of an upgrade reprise that we can bank for heavy movement mechanics, definitely not a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

or maybe have an option to spend it during burst too?

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This; however, is a terrible idea. If the idea is to give us more movement choices that doesn't involve needing to have 50/50 mana built up, then this inherently takes away that choice. Take this part out of your suggestion Komaru and you have a wonderful suggestion.

combine the 3 melee to one button. to free up two button slot.
the purpose is to save atleast 1 button slot for this new job mechanic im suggesting.

new guage that has 3or4 qty spell count (i want 4qty, just want it to be different than monk's master gauge which is 3. and 4 means more opportunity for more combination)
only verholy and verflare trigger ea spell count. ex, hhff, hfhf, etc...
once you got all spell count, depending on the pattern, this new either gcd or ogcd button press will do something. gcd means another free movement after 3-4 cycles *smirk*
could be along the line of buff/dmg enemy/heal/etc.
when pressed, it will reset the gauge to 3-4 nothing/void pattern, which cannot be active unless it has 4 pattern again.

you can think of it like the monks master guage (monk master gauge only deal dps?? which is why i say its a mix with astro) but have an effect like astro's minor arcana (as in can be dps or buff or mit)

I will say, the gauge always start with a preset pattern, thus this button can be used on the opener?

Personally I would like the RNG to be more forgiving and/or have more gauge build up for our main spells, because that RNG feels REALLY bad if you don't get any procs, or just do away with the RNG and give us more gauge build up.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

The downtime after each verwind/thunder feels really bad as it breaks the flow of cast. We basically spend half of our time doing nothing waiting for the gcd to refresh. I would like the recast time of verThunder/Wind to be reduced to 2.0 or even 1.5s. (although that might be too short)

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Personally not fond of this idea. The window of "doing nothing" is both where we weave in oGCDs when they're available, as well as what gives us regular movement capabilities. The shorter that becomes, the harder it becomes to weave oGCDs and the less movement we actually get. Given there's already complaints regarding RDM mobility, I'd rather not give up more of that.

I also just don't feel like that "doing nothing" feels that bad? It fits right into the pattern of "cast, dualcast, move/do oGCDs". When no mechanics are happening that require movement, and we don't have oGCDs to hit, it can get a little stale - but if that really needs fixing, I'd rather see other solutions that involve having more things to put in those windows, rather than shortening our Dualcast window itself.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

snip

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Well put, I liked reading your response to all the listed stuff in the OP so far.

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Originally Posted by Jade_Tyrant

Personally not fond of this idea. The window of "doing nothing" is both where we weave in oGCDs when they're available, as well as what gives us regular movement capabilities. The shorter that becomes, the harder it becomes to weave oGCDs and the less movement we actually get. Given there's already complaints regarding RDM mobility, I'd rather not give up more of that.

I also just don't feel like that "doing nothing" feels that bad? It fits right into the pattern of "cast, dualcast, move/do oGCDs". When no mechanics are happening that require movement, and we don't have oGCDs to hit, it can get a little stale - but if that really needs fixing, I'd rather see other solutions that involve having more things to put in those windows, rather than shortening our Dualcast window itself.

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I do agree 100% with this.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Personally I would like the RNG to be more forgiving and/or have more gauge build up for our main spells, because that RNG feels REALLY bad if you don't get any procs, or just do away with the RNG and give us more gauge build up.

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If it gives you any peace of mind, the RNG from procs doesn't affect your DPS over the course of any encounter in a meaningful way. You aren't going to lose sword combos from not getting enough procs, even in the 20-minute long ultimate fights. No other player in any encounter is building a sword combo that you aren't just because of poor RNG.

Think of bouncing between procs and jolt in your rotation like playing Pong, but no one wins or loses.

One thing I'll give credit to RDM is that I feel every iteration since its introduction has always been an improvement on what came before, something I can't say for a lot of other jobs.

I do have a few things I'd like to see though:

• A new spell to Dualcast into; maybe a cooldown GCD that combines a light and dark motif and increases both Black/White mana at the same rate as Verthunder/Aero.
• A buff to Reprise, either reducing its gauge cost, increasing its potency a bit, or a temporary upgrade from some other mechanic. It's a weak movement tool at the moment.
• Moulinet starting a combo, either a 2-hit combo where the second hit grants 2 mana stacks at 30|30 mana, or a 3-hit combo costing 20-15-15 like the single target combo.
• Speaking of combos, if button count is a concern, I wouldn't mind combos being condensed.
• Verstone and Verfire upgrading eventually to Verstone III and Verfire III.
• A cooldown upgrading Veraero and Verthunder into Vertornado and Verburst for a single cast, possibly an Acceleration upgrade.
• Embolden increasing damage from all of the users attacks and not just magical attacks.

For basic QoL, yeah having Sprint not consume Dualcast would be nice, why is that a thing?

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

One thing I'll give credit to RDM is that I feel every iteration since its introduction has always been an improvement on what came before, something I can't say for a lot of other jobs.
[LIST][*]A new spell to Dualcast into; maybe a cooldown GCD that combines a light and dark motif and increases both Black/White mana at the same rate as Verthunder/Aero.[*]A buff to Reprise, either reducing its gauge cost, increasing its potency a bit, or a temporary upgrade from some other mechanic. It's a weak movement tool at the moment.[*]A cooldown upgrading Veraero and Verthunder into Vertornado and Verburst for a single cast, possibly an Acceleration upgrade.


Sprint not consume Dualcast would be nice

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I agree, and I particularly like these suggestions. Buffing reprise echos a similar sentiment discussed on this thread. I believe you're the first to suggest the potential of Veraero and Verthunder having a temporary upgraded version via Acceleration. It honestly sounds sick AF and I am here for it. I think acceleration should upgrade those moves to higher damaging forms, heck yea.

Anyone have more glamour suggestions or adjectives I can add to the OP?

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

I think red mage should have a DoT or anything to give them more damage

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What?

Why?

You can get more damage by just bumping up potencies. You don't need a DoT for that, just add 10 to all their ability potencies across the board.

DoTs are annoying if they're just tacked onto Jobs and the Job isn't built around it, but one thing RDM has had going for it since it started was having a dynamic gameplay loop that had no DoTs or upkeep buffs. Why would you want one? I get SMN lost the ones it had, but BLM still has its DoT, and its DoT actually has some interactions with the kit (Thundercloud, Sharpcast generated Thundercloud, and how much of BLM is built around positioning and movement with Thundercloud being a strong movement tool/option as well as the random procs being something to optimize around and adjust your rotation based on), which makes it far more useful than just tacking Dia onto RDM.

RDM is one of the more perfect Jobs in the game right now. It's easy to pick up, it has things to optimize if you want to push yourself, it has a lot of party utility, but that utility comes at a serious trade-off in damage, so it's actually a meaningful choice to make and adjust to, with resource considerations (especially Verraise since you can OOM yourself). The only issue it has is that its damage is probably too penalized, and at least for right now (granted, last patch of the expansion...), the Devs acknowledged that with the RDM potency buffs to nudge its damage up towards where it should have been this whole time.

But the problem with RDM isn't its abilities or gameplay. It's that it needs some potency bumps and then to not be touched much.

(The only other major change I'd make is do something with Enchanted Reprise like make it only cost 2/2 or 1/1 or something since 5/5 is a pretty big chunk of 50/50...), but even that isn't too big an issue now that we have Acceleration working as 2 more charges of Swiftcast so we aren't as movement limited as we might otherwise be. (Though I still think it should be done...)

...okay, I'd also consider flipping the AOE rotation, since it STILL bugs me that's backwards from single target...but even so, I would probably not want to do it now since my muscle memory would fight me forever and a day over that until I could get used to the adjustment. XD I do like what I saw someone say about just making Moulinet cost 25 and be a 2 hit combo instead of a 3 hit one, though. Not sure how that would work with the mana gem thing (though it could have a combo action with itself that the second one generates a second gem, that'd be easy enough to code/implement). In ShB, this was difference because you could 100/100, hit it twice, then Manification to get 3 more (or something like that, I don't exactly remember it) because of the way Manification worked and that Moulinet didn't give you the Holy/Flare...but I kind of like getting to use Holy/Flare in AOE, so...I'm okay with the EW chnages there.

I was thinking the other day it might be neat to get "Verscathe" as a movement tool that generated 2 black mana (and Vercure be changed to generate 2 white) so you had a few more buttons going on, but that would be a replacement for Reprise and...at this point we're stuck with Reprise.

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I guess what I'm curious about at this point is what there's even left to add. Vermedica would be too much since Vercure (like PLD Clemency) is potentially powerful but not enough to replace healers, and Vermedica would be able to replace them. Likewise Versuna (though BRD can remove a debuff, so...). When I say I think it's a near perfect Job already, I mean it. I'm honestly not sure what there is to change/add at this point...

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Honestly, and this is going to be a very unpopular opinion that is rife with balance issues, I wish they would allow RDM to switch between a white and black magic stance giving benefits of each. Black magic stance could focus very heavily on damage replacing any utility and healing with DPS tools while White magic stance could give us even more utility in addition to vercure and raise being available. I feel like it would allow for some kind of player expression with the job but I can already see how whichever stance gave the higher DPS output would be the only one people allowed RDM to play as in groups.

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I have to strongly disagree with this for two reasons:


1. Having played during stance dance days, this works horribly in practice and would in fact cause more trouble than it would resolve for RDM.
2. Having played FFXI, this would dangerously put rdm close to a healer-alternative role, and trust me you really don't want to land Rdm in this spot. It will entirely destroy the identity of rdm and cause certain meta that forces rdm into a healer role. Granted the game isn't built well to force this kind of meta, but in certain instances where a healer is too much to ask for and a rdm fits the bill enough while being able to stance dance between a healer/dps role...yeah, you really don't want this. Trust me.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

I have to strongly disagree with this

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I do agree with your sentiment for the exact same reasons. Stances don't belong in MMOs anymore- There isn't a good way to implement them that feels fun and not make players experience some sort of punishment, or tax, for turning them off or on. I think the dev team is beyond adding them back to the game at this point just because of how insanely hard cleric stance and making tank stances tied to damage output failed. Some players remember that stuff fondly, but all it really did was start countless arguments day and night about players thinking its ok to never dps because one move in their kit says that it is optional.

But, what else do you want to add to this wishlist though? How do you think the black and white motif can be better added to red mage that makes more sense? Do you have strong opinions about the stuff on the wishlist as is?