Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You know even with ToS, that still didnt stop people in PF barring players due to their numbers or performance anyway. At least from the posts Ive seen on twitter, so just making it official will just validate a lot of the scummy behavior of caring more about top tier damage numbers than just clearing a fight. Itll effectively kill the raid scene even more

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Raid scene would improve. People should be barred from griefing others with their garbage play. It would be a GOOD thing

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

The barred players often have logs that are astronomical terrible and often their clears came because the group carried them. Clearing the fight itself is not a great metric to go by. We had an FC mate that was dead for roughly 28% of a fight we cleared it but one day he came crying in discord cause we uploaded the fight he had issues getting into PF groups.

It is not scummy behavior to not want to carry someone that has a history of getting carried.

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The example Im using is actually the opposite where despite their optimal performance in their job, you have people barring them just because their job still mathematically outputs less than other jobs. Again just giving more tools for people with terrible group behavior. No thanks

PF creation gives us option to bar certain job from joining. Let's remove that too, then!

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The example Im using is actually the opposite where despite their optimal performance in their job, you have people barring them just because their job still mathematically outputs less than other jobs. Again just giving more tools for people with terrible group behavior. No thanks

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I get what you are saying but if that is your example then the prevalence of the tool would not probably not alter much since they were barred due to a perceived meta issue not so much a performance one. The solution to your example would be to make every job perform the same or to remove PF. At the core PF should have the right to bar who they wish from joining for whatever reason. Isn’t that the whole point of PF to form a group that matches your requirements?

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Yes. That is what I said.



Remember, it's the same company that says they have integrity in their character models/game art and don't want to cause clipping issues, and then still cause clipping issues literally everywhere, but when it comes to things like ears of multiple races "oh lordy lordy we can't have them clip through the hats!"




Umm... you're not forced to play with those people when they rear their ugly little heads. If someone actually came into your group and did that, despite the TOS, then 1. that's a VERY easy kick and 2. a VERY easy report. You literally have the tools to solve issues like that yourself, make use of them. It boggles my mind how anti-kick and anti-report people in this game are.

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The thing is, its not always your groups and you can find the group back on PF for 30 mins because of it. There is a lot of sillyness on PF as it is, and what I raised is just one example, without making your average nobbers life easier to be a PITAS.

I want to say yes, because the fundamental design of the game for any content beyond normal mode practically necessitates it in many forms. At the very least information that will allow for some form of analyses to take place. Stone Sky Sea does not suffice in this regard, and nor will it ever.

That being said, I will say no because a majority of players can not really interpret the results responsibly, much less use that information in an appropriate manner. Kudos to those that generally do, but the sad reality is that it only takes a few players to create a really godawful stigma about something, regardless of how useful said tool might be.

People owning more than 1 house, not intended but was possible due to an exploited loophole.
One person FC's, not the intention, but another exploited loophole.
Using Alt-F4 to skip 'unskippable' cutscenes, not intended but also exploited.
Just a few examples of game features the playerbase exploited for their own benefit.

What makes you think the players aren't going to exploit an in game parser?
If you do, you're delusional

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

People owning more than 1 house, not intended but was possible due to an exploited loophole.
One person FC's, not the intention, but another exploited loophole.
Using Alt-F4 to skip 'unskippable' cutscenes, not intended but also exploited.
Just a few examples of game features the playerbase exploited for their own benefit.

What makes you think the players aren't going to exploit an in game parser?
If you do, you're delusional

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How could the player exploit it in ways the current add-on options don't? What evils would be unleashed by the presence of an IG parser? Parser are nothing but a clearer way to present informations that are already readily available if you browse the fight log.
I agree it probably shouldn't be available in any casual content, but would that change anything for savage and above as basically everyone uses a parser there already? (or are already feeling its influence in guides, meta analysis, static recruitements, teammates talk, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

How could the player exploit it in ways the current add-on options don't? What evils would be unleashed by the presence of an IG parser?
I agree it probably shouldn't be available in any casual content, but would that change anything for savage and above as basically everyone uses a parser there already? (or are already feeling its influence in guides, meta analysis, static recruitements, etc.)

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Ok so heres what I dont get. If we already have people parse and use FFlogs anyway, what in the hells are we debating about? Are we seriously just trying to push this for the people that dont want it?

And dont say its for the people that want it, they already would have installed the add-on anyway.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok so heres what I dont get. If we already have people parse and use FFlogs anyway, what in the hells are we debating about? Are we seriously just trying to push this for the people that dont want it?

And dont say its for the people that want it, they already would have installed the add-on anyway.

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For the record, I have no strong opinion on this. I think Square Enix's stance is hypocritical but I do understand why they do it, as the current situation is the perfect grey area for them. Raiders get their tools, and SE can deny any responsability for their eventual misuse (and they routinely do).
But an official IG parser would help console players if nothing else.

Yoshi P has stated a million times there will never be damage meters of any kind ever in the game. It's banned and that will never change. Yoshi P has stated that he doesn't want to see people get excluded from content because of damage meters.

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

Everyone will know who to actually give a well deserved commendation to. Hahahahaha! ;)

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Then go play WoW. Be toxic there.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Knowing who is dead weight and treating them as such isn't toxic, what's toxic is being the dead weight

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok so heres what I dont get. If we already have people parse and use FFlogs anyway, what in the hells are we debating about? Are we seriously just trying to push this for the people that dont want it?

And dont say its for the people that want it, they already would have installed the add-on anyway.

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For the most part I think this is just a case of having a discussion or debate for the sake of having one. Many already know nothing will come of it but still desire to explore / question the rational behind the choice.

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Originally Posted by KatMajestic

Then go play WoW. Be toxic there.

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WoW is no more :toxic: than FFXIV one community is just more blunt and the other is more passive aggressive about it.

There will never be damage meters in FFXIV. If you want damage meters then go play WoW be toxic there. Context was lost in the sauce.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

For the most part I think this is just a case of having a discussion or debate for the sake of having one. Many already know nothing will come of it but still desire to explore / question the rational behind the choice.



WoW is no more :toxic: than FFXIV one community is just more blunt and the other is more passive aggressive about it.

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WoW is no more :toxic: than FFXIV one community is just more blunt and the other is more passive aggressive about it.

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Oh I beg to differ.

As has been said, but bears repeating, the day that dps meters are allowed, you will have THAT GUY spamming meters and screaming abuse at people..............in Sastasha.

Thank you, no.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

No thanks.

Damage/heal meters are toxic.

Quit Overwatch 2 when they added the stats page.

Stats don't ever tell the full story, and it encourages bad play.

They are fine in games where K/D matters.

But damage/heal meters encourage poeple to top the charts rather than actually play properly.

For example, I have seen plenty of healers 'top' the charts in games I play, but they are playing absolutely woefully. Their heals are mostly them opting not to remove themselvs from crap. Same with DPS. High DPS is great, but not if you are putting yourself in the way of death.

Then you have people bitching if you don't do a job (as per the stats), etc.

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PVP has post game stats, you better quit xiv now :D

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But damage/heal meters encourage poeple to top the charts rather than actually play properly.

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This is 100% true

Example, MoP Throne of Thunder, Horridon. They focus the boss padding their meters, and ignore the adds mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Most of us don’t need another “WoW” possibility of fostering toxicity & it wouldn’t be fair game (leave that for those who does savage however).

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Wow has toxicity because the GM's don't ban toxic behavior
if the same thing over there was happening here the gm's would ban people.
So it won't happen even if we did get damage meters

I think not having an official dps meter is the right call.

With it, toxic players will use it as a tool to bash newbies who are not performing to their perceived standards which would promote toxicity within the game. By tacitly allowing unofficial dps meters for players who want them, players who want to analyze their own performance can use these external tools to aid them but toxic players can't abuse them to go after newbie players as by doing so, they are admitting that they are using third party tools and opening themselves to GM punishment.

A win win situation for all parties around.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

PVP has post game stats, you better quit xiv now :D

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I mean, PvP is super dead relatively to PvE in this game...

Instead of damage meters add a system that helps you learn rotions and different situations that the game throws at you

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I mean, PvP is super dead relatively to PvE in this game...

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..and we love it that way.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

You're phrasing this as if this comical strawman is the only kind of player who's against this kind of stuff, which is simply not the case. Other examples include players who do try and do care but get shot down because they're not already playing nigh-perfectly, and players who don't even have any interest in the higher end stuff being thrown shade on within casual content. I found it to be an entirely unwelcome thing to be pulled aside and having every minutia of my performance scrutinized over being 2 sec late to press Fleche on my first ever EX (which was also outdated content that we overgeared at the time) for sure.

These attitudes exist elsewhere where such things are part of the game (including people using ToS-breaking software WITHIN FFXIV itself) and isn't going to magically just not happen because FFXIV is some magical group-hug game where everyone is suddenly a kindhearted teletubby.
People may be prevented from outright flaming and bullying people thanks to Squeenix actually monitoring such things, but you can be dang sure there will be passive-aggressive snark all over the place because "someone is trolling by playing MCH", a plethora of parties urging certain jobs to simply not apply, and people who will make use of the first possible opportunity to avoid playing with people who were unfortunate enough not to play the top-parsing jobs in the game.
These people don't exist, you say? Of course they do, just as surely as the "TOXICITY" example you typed up there.

I'm not going to refute that there certainly is a crowd of people who go "REEE CARRY ME" but please don't grab the broadest brush you can find and use it to paint over everyone who expresses concerns over this.

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I love how you are yelling strawman against liam's post when they have already included your arguement in it.

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"Statics will exclude everyone!"
"But everyone who raids uses fflogs anyway, lots of causal statics exist and it's been fine?"

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Originally Posted by Gemina

In my experience, most groups don't even reach enrage. They just fail the mechanics, and are forced to reset more often than not until the timer of the duty runs out. DPS meters aren't going to do anything to help those groups.

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You're pointing at people who are unprepared for higher end content as the reason that the game doesn't need a feature in higher end content, that's kind of intellectually dishonest.

No, an umbrella won't help you much in a sandstorm, but if it's pouring rain you might want one.

If you're in a trap party or early prog you won't get much out of seeing dps (although it could help you spot points where you need to do something like hold burst) but even if it isn't part of your experience the fact is many groups do clear Savage and dps meters help that.

My own experience with p8sp2 is a really good example. My group had been trying to move towards a week 1 clear for a long time now, we did Asphodelos in 8 days so we were close. The dps wall on p8sp2 on release was tough and we hit our heads against it a fair bit. I changed from SGE to SCH specifically to beat enrage because the advantages of SGE were already kind of moot and between Expedient and the addition to 2m burst via Chain Strat was more attractive. I don't know if we would have come to that conclusion without logs to ponder. We cleared in slightly under an hour of me swapping.

Meters are very worth it in many situations, and pointing to one where they won't be helpful isn't really adding anything to the conversation.

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Originally Posted by KatMajestic

Yoshi P has stated a million times there will never be damage meters of any kind ever in the game. It's banned and that will never change. Yoshi P has stated that he doesn't want to see people get excluded from content because of damage meters.

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Yoshida also claimed that FC housing would always be separate from personal housing.

Sometimes he says things that aren't true, or changes his mind.

Like a person.

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Yoshida also claimed that FC housing would always be separate from personal housing. Sometimes he says things that aren't true, or changes his mind.

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The chances of that happening are about....0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

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Originally Posted by moroarda

You're pointing at people who are unprepared for higher end content as the reason that the game doesn't need a feature in higher end content, that's kind of intellectually dishonest.

No, an umbrella won't help you much in a sandstorm, but if it's pouring rain you might want one.

If you're in a trap party or early prog you won't get much out of seeing dps (although it could help you spot points where you need to do something like hold burst) but even if it isn't part of your experience the fact is many groups do clear Savage and dps meters help that.

My own experience with p8sp2 is a really good example. My group had been trying to move towards a week 1 clear for a long time now, we did Asphodelos in 8 days so we were close. The dps wall on p8sp2 on release was tough and we hit our heads against it a fair bit. I changed from SGE to SCH specifically to beat enrage because the advantages of SGE were already kind of moot and between Expedient and the addition to 2m burst via Chain Strat was more attractive. I don't know if we would have come to that conclusion without logs to ponder. We cleared in slightly under an hour of me swapping.

Meters are very worth it in many situations, and pointing to one where they won't be helpful isn't really adding anything to the conversation.



Yoshida also claimed that FC housing would always be separate from personal housing.

Sometimes he says things that aren't true, or changes his mind.

Like a person.

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Very much true and he has said a lot of other things that were impossible at the time but were implemented eventually but unlike those requested features, he's shown absolute contempt at the question always being presented to the point that he doesnt want to address it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Very much true and he has said a lot of other things that were impossible at the time but were implemented eventually but unlike those requested features, he's shown absolute contempt at the question always being presented to the point that he doesnt want to address it anymore.

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My point was fairly clear - he's said things that turn out to not be true in the future.

Yes, I'm aware of his weird hatred for parsing, but unlike most people (apparently) I recognize that he's a normal person who can on occasion learn about something and have their opinion evolve.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The chances of that happening are about....0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

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Yes but hope springs eternal in the hearts of the number crunchers. Got to have ma numbers. Guess giving parsers the finger doesn't get his point across well enough I suppose.

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Yes, I'm aware of his weird hatred for parsing, but unlike most people (apparently) I recognize that he's a normal person who can on occasion learn about something and have their opinion evolve.

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It isnt just him, I dont know how many times this has to be said.

THE ENTIRE TEAM doesnt want it. The game is designed to not need them. It has been said over, and over, and over again, I dont see how or why people cant take NO for an answer.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok so heres what I dont get. If we already have people parse and use FFlogs anyway, what in the hells are we debating about? Are we seriously just trying to push this for the people that dont want it?

And dont say its for the people that want it, they already would have installed the add-on anyway.

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Console players can't parse. Also who cares what the bads have to say, they don't matter

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Originally Posted by KatMajestic

Yoshi P has stated a million times there will never be damage meters of any kind ever in the game. It's banned and that will never change. Yoshi P has stated that he doesn't want to see people get excluded from content because of damage meters.

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Some people should be excluded from content though because they are bad and weigh down 7 other people

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Originally Posted by KatMajestic

Then go play WoW. Be toxic there.

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Cleaving bads is not, has never been, and never will be toxic. Your sub doesn't entitle you to clearing something

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Originally Posted by DeNada

I think not having an official dps meter is the right call.

With it, toxic players will use it as a tool to bash newbies who are not performing to their perceived standards which would promote toxicity within the game. By tacitly allowing unofficial dps meters for players who want them, players who want to analyze their own performance can use these external tools to aid them but toxic players can't abuse them to go after newbie players as by doing so, they are admitting that they are using third party tools and opening themselves to GM punishment.

A win win situation for all parties around.

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Kicking an underperforming player is allowed by the TOS. Try again

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Cleaving bads is not, has never been, and never will be toxic. Your sub doesn't entitle you to clearing something\

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I miss Titanmen :(:(

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I love how you are yelling strawman against liam's post when they have already included your arguement in it.

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And I love how you're interpreting this as some kind of "gotcha moment".

"You're 10% below the NIN on dps on this fight!"
"NIN has better burst, they're naturally higher-"
"Why are you playing MCH? They're the BOTTOM performer! Obviously you're trolling!"
"I like being a mch?"
"I looked at your total casts and you're not using double down on CD!"
"It's my first time and a confusing mechanic was happe-"
"STOP PERFORMING SUBPAR!"
"It's a leveling du-"
"SUBOPTIMAL! DRIFT! OGCD FLOAT! REEEE!!! VOTEKICK THE TROLL HOLDING US BACK!!!

I'm sure at least one of his opinions might be in this made-up text, doesn't make it any less of a strawman.
Painting the opposition in such an infantile and unflattering light isn't a good way to have an honest conversation, and I feel like it's more about "winning" than actually presenting a reasonable point of view.
I'm definitely willing to listen to what the other side has to say, and I might even be convinced, but not by posts like that.

Real talk if they add ingame dps meters I'm out. 100% hitting the unsubscribe page.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Real talk if they add ingame dps meters I'm out. 100% hitting the unsubscribe page.

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Well that's already one more good reason to add them

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Well that's already one more good reason to add them

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Why? Why in your right mind would you want less people to play your game? As a company with shareholders that makes little sense irregardless of your toxic remarks. Thank the twelve I don't play on a data center with a person such as you.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

And I love how you're interpreting this as some kind of "gotcha moment".

"You're 10% below the NIN on dps on this fight!"
"NIN has better burst, they're naturally higher-"
"Why are you playing MCH? They're the BOTTOM performer! Obviously you're trolling!"
"I like being a mch?"
"I looked at your total casts and you're not using double down on CD!"
"It's my first time and a confusing mechanic was happe-"
"STOP PERFORMING SUBPAR!"
"It's a leveling du-"
"SUBOPTIMAL! DRIFT! OGCD FLOAT! REEEE!!! VOTEKICK THE TROLL HOLDING US BACK!!!

I'm sure at least one of his opinions might be in this made-up text, doesn't make it any less of a strawman.
Painting the opposition in such an infantile and unflattering light isn't a good way to have an honest conversation, and I feel like it's more about "winning" than actually presenting a reasonable point of view.
I'm definitely willing to listen to what the other side has to say, and I might even be convinced, but not by posts like that.

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None of it was a strawman, Liam simply adressed the most prevalent arguments. Your's was part of it. But instead of engaging with it you are yelling strawman and foul. The fact of the matter is that all this doomsaying about how much exclusion is going to happen is silly because it all is already possible and happening. Liam falls just slightly short of adressing all available counterpoints by not considering this aspect:

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok so heres what I dont get. If we already have people parse and use FFlogs anyway, what in the hells are we debating about? Are we seriously just trying to push this for the people that dont want it?

And dont say its for the people that want it, they already would have installed the add-on anyway.

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The only difference it would effectively make is for console players allowing them to see their own damage numbers without the help of pc players logging for them. In reality the only valid argument against ingame parsing is that it would be a waste of dev time because the community has already created and maintained a reasonably well working tool. Something the devs would either have to copy (making the undertaking pointless) or retread already explored ground (very pointless).

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Originally Posted by KatMajestic

There will never be damage meters in FFXIV. If you want damage meters then go play WoW be toxic there. Context was lost in the sauce.

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As I mentioned many already know nothing will come of it, but hell this is a general forum meant to foster discussion. Also, if the anti parse crew was so sure in their position what harm comes from those that are for it making topics about it? Not like papa Yoshi-P is going to change his mind on the matter.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Oh I beg to differ.

As has been said, but bears repeating, the day that dps meters are allowed, you will have THAT GUY spamming meters and screaming abuse at people..............in Sastasha.

Thank you, no.

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Showing meters to shame someone in leveling content in WoW rarely happens, and when it does it is because the damage gap is freaking massive, and even then it is mostly just for the memes. Most players in WoW just as in FFXIV are understanding that leveling content variance will be massive especially when someone is a new player or on a character without decent gear that you can get from already having a max level character.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It isnt just him, I dont know how many times this has to be said.

THE ENTIRE TEAM doesnt want it. The game is designed to not need them. It has been said over, and over, and over again, I dont see how or why people cant take NO for an answer.

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Same way I do not see the reason people that are against parsing get riled up at the mere suggestion being brought up.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Hey, did you actually read that last sentence I made in that post or...

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I did, but it’s not true. ANY fight becomes harder with poor dps. We just only care when the content is difficult enough that we might wipe to it.