Second Wind is a terrible ability and either needs redesigned or outright removed.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Of course you are! You're Azem, you're not meant to be anything less!!

Anyway, sorry for being aggressive :x

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It's fine. <3

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

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Because it doesn't need to be changed... Second Wind is perfectly fine the way it is.

i think the 2 minute cooldown is fine but it 100% needs a heal buff as even if i use second wind as an emergency heal at times i have still died afterwards due to how bad the heal scales with higher level content

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because it doesn't need to be changed... Second Wind is perfectly fine the way it is.

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its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is. its still not "perfectly fine" in the case of BRD and MCH.

it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

2nd wind is absolutely fine, saves many a run in savage. Honestly I would prefer if they just made healing potions useful and not tied to damage potions as this is actually criminal. It's not so bad at lower levels as Hi-Potions are incredible and have a 22s cd but once you get to end game a 3600 heal isn't going to cut it on a 60s cd.

If the healing potions were say 45s cd and the same strenght as 2nd wind we would be flying.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Great. Then tell those people who want to go through MSQ as a healer "You only need to suffer through the MSQ once every expansion, which can take upwards to 20 hours from beating up monsters alone or doing some solo instances. It's not a big deal because you're only doing it once!" I love to see how many people would say "Yeah, that's perfectly fine by me! I don't mind pressing 2 buttons in every expansion AND patch cycle until I get to group content! There's no way I wouldn't just swap roles instead because I found it too boring!"

Sorry for sounding really harsh, but that's really what it feels like you're telling me whenever I want to go through the MSQ as a healer. That sounds like a second class citizen kind of thing. No wonder Derplander is never a healer in the trailers. The MSQ is really just not meant for a healer. At that point, you might as well just make all healers maximum level if they're just there for group content.

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Then excuse me for being harsh but personally that sounds like a "you" problem.

That being said, if we have to keep the current meta of dps being king then I'm not arguing against healers having one or more dps skills. However if I had it my way, I would rather want them to rework the trinity to be in line with the core aspect of the holy trinity. Healers should be valued for their healing while tanks should be valued for their taking aggro; these two should not trump over another like how it currently is. With that in mind, I rather see them make encounters much more harrowing that will force healers to focus more on using their toolkit rather than dealing damage. That shouldnt be their job, thats the DPS's job. If you want to focus on dealing numbers then you play a dps focused class. If you want to rather lead and keep the aggro for the party to focus then you want to be the tank, and if you want to heal and support then the game should allow you to go for that playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Asako

It's not so bad at lower levels as Hi-Potions are incredible and have a 22s cd but once you get to end game a 3600 heal isn't going to cut it on a 60s cd.

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It's funny you say that because Second Wind at lvl 90 (non crit) heals for ~8000 which equates to 4000 a minute which is about what the level 70 HQ potion heals for (3600 health per minute).

When I say Second Wind is weak, that's one of the points I mean. At level 90, it's equivalent to a level 70 potion (per minute heal.)

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

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Define these 99% of cases? Guess what, SW is meant to be useful for that exact 1% situation, so looks like it worked as intend.

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but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is.

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No need to pretend.

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it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

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Why we at it, please give every other DPS a personal shield like Radiant Aegis or Manaward, MCH and BRD should also get En Advant.

Like holy crap, I swear some people just obssessive about every class must have exactly the same thing or something.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is. its still not "perfectly fine" in the case of BRD and MCH.

it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

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How about no to all of that?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Define these 99% of cases? Guess what, SW is meant to be useful for that exact 1% situation, so looks like it worked as intend.

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i'll give you a case where it wasn't enough. P8S. Illusory Creation, early on when we were still working out our mit plan. We got In + Protean. WHM forgot Temperance.

Our MNK popped Second Wind, Riddle of Earth and Bloodbath. He lived.
Our NIN popped Second Wind, Shadeshift and Bloodbath. He lived.
Our SMN popped Radiant Aegis. He lived.
Our BRD popped Second Wind and died to the Protean by about 2k dmg.

works as intended, if the goal was to make your BRD want to switch to DNC for not only an easier time, but to be arguably more impactful to the raid, and less punishing upon death.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Why we at it, please give every other DPS a personal shield like Radiant Aegis or Manaward, MCH and BRD should also get En Advant.

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well NIN and RPR both have Shadeshift and Arcane Crest respectively, so i guess we're getting there.

BRD already has Repelling Shot. and yes, MCH absolutely should get a movement skill.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Like holy crap, I swear some people just obssessive about every class must have exactly the same thing or something.

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the devs are the ones who went out of their way to homogenise the f out of the jobs. i'm suggesting a change to an inconsistency.

there's been nothing decent against my suggestions too, other than "lol no" or "it'd be broken" i agree with the "it doesn't matter" ones, because SW is a posterchild for button bloat and should've been one of the first things gone.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

How about no to all of that?

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example of a response is literally "lol no"

it reminds me of way back in Stormblood when we were discussing how crappy DRK's Shadow Wall was in comparison to WAR's Vengeance.

literally the same responses. "it does its job", "doesn't need changed" "its perfect as it is" and the devs ended up changing it anyway. almost like it wasn't fine.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm not quite sure why you're pointing this out[...]

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Forgive me @_@ for whatever reason I misinterpret your comment as "ranged physical have feint too" at the time I wrote that. The wonders of bedtime discussion...

Otherwise, I agree with your points.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

i'll give you a case where it wasn't enough. P8S. Illusory Creation, early on when we were still working out our mit plan. We got In + Protean. WHM forgot Temperance.

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Isn't that the point?

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

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works as intended,

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Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Isn't that the point?

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that in an emergency situation during early progression, BRD lacks personal cds that the other jobs have and would've lived in that case? yes that is my point.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

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i'd say its the game's issue when two jobs within a role are missing a cd that the 3rd one has and this results in a death that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

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seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

i want BRD and MCH to have slightly better options to match the other dps though. whether its Bloodbath, Second Wind buff, another cd like Curing Waltz or they're just given caster m.def. i don't really care. but right now its inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

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Well, that's your problem. Your first comment was asking about why people resisting to change when most people was talking about the OP change to SW. You piggy bag your actual argument after we already fire off our counterargument. This is like setting up a new target after the bullet already left the barrel. You should have start a thread asking for equal access, rather than piggyback a comment about someone asking change to something that people consider working as intended.

And even on your point, what you call inconsistent I just call it flavor. Survivability on each classes have never been the same, should never be the same. Like I said, if you start asking every roles to have the exact same thing, where the buck gonna stop? All healers should be given gap closer like SGE too then? Curing Waltz for everyone.


And you should care, your comment about "this is what SE already doing anyway" ... like so since they're doing something bad let make it worse? This is exactly why we got into this circle. People complaining about class being streamline and become homogeneous, yet every other request is "why class A have this and class B don't, that's not fair! Make them the same please!" :confused:



tl:dr version for the rest at the end.


Do you know why we keep calling it "emergency"? Because it's not a guarantee. Even for people who claim SW saved many run, most of us actually also recount when it's not enough. Someone screw up, you hit that button and ... "pray" that it's enough, and a lot of time it's just not. But that's "unreliability" is what make ability like SW (or other personal) an emergency used at player discreet, and not a "regular" part of the kit. Because not everyone have it, and/or because it doesn't guarantee a save even if you have it, that's why:

- No healer will skip a heal thinking "well the DPS can just SW themselves up".
- No DPS gonna purpose take an extra hit that can kill them because they can just SW up. (They may take a risk and still get hit, but that's different).

Now imagine a world where SW is given to everyone and also buffed like requested in this thread.

- Healer gonna start skipping heal under the assumption people can keep themselves up using SW.
- DPS gonna eat mechanic if it give them certain advantage if they have the assurance of SW will be enough to cover the damage.

I can already imagine this kind of chat become a norm. A DPS after dying to back to back AOE damage:

DPS: yo healer why you let me die to DMG, where my heal?
Healer: where is your second wind? You can just top yourself off for the 2nd hit there.
DPS: I already used it earlier to keep up time!
Healer: well, that sounds like a YOU problem to me.


Just like ... no. When something work reliably with equal access, it's no longer an "emergency", it's an expectation of the norm. You probably will also here something like this: "ok our mit plan for this will be reprisal first, feint second, and second wind the third hit, everyone cool with that?"


tl:dr:

- It's an emergency tool because you can not rely on it to save a run, just hope it can save a run.
- If you change SW to make it something people can rely on, then it's no longer an emergency button
- It'll just become another ability that people expected to plan and use regularly.

I'll just say this. I question the skill of people wanting a buff to this action. I don't mean this in a mean way but if you aren't messing mechanics up you wouldn't need to rely on said panic button much.

Can we stop advocating for more handholding please? Can we leave somethings just as they are especially when they aren't broken?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'll just say this. I question the skill of people wanting a buff to this action. I don't mean this in a mean way but if you aren't messing mechanics up you wouldn't need to rely on said panic button much.

Can we stop advocating for more handholding please? Can we leave somethings just as they are especially when they aren't broken?

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If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

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I'm perfectly fine with that idea. I've said earlier that mitigation is one thing, but self healing skills should be extremely limited and "emergency" style skills only for like when a healer goes down or something.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

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I gey this was suppose to be a "got ya" comment but I'm all for it!

But then you forget msq is a thing. How is Mch (for example) suppose to heal itself? Iirc Bard doesn't have self healing either. Plenty of classes don't.

We've had this skill for years and it's been working fine. When it doesn't save me I don't go "damn this skill sucks it needs more potency". I go "damn well I shouldn't have messed up".

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I gey this was suppose to be a "got ya" comment but I'm all for it!

But then you forget msq is a thing. How is Mch (for example) suppose to heal itself? Iirc Bard doesn't have self healing either. Plenty of classes don't.

We've had this skill for years and it's been working fine. When it doesn't save me I don't go "damn this skill sucks it needs more potency". I go "damn well I shouldn't have messed up".

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I mean, most of the non-instanced stuff is faceroll and instanced fights the npc always heals you to full so its a non-issue imo for the msq.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I mean, most of the non-instanced stuff is faceroll and instanced fights the npc always heals you to full so its a non-issue imo for the msq.

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What's considered face roll will differ depending on skill. And not every instance has npcs with you. Hell if you mess up enough npc healing won't cut it.

Doesn't really change my main point though

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I gey this was suppose to be a "got ya" comment but I'm all for it!

But then you forget msq is a thing. How is Mch (for example) suppose to heal itself? Iirc Bard doesn't have self healing either. Plenty of classes don't.

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since like, i wanna say Stormblood, you get a constant regen in every solo instance. at least in every non-RP solo instance. healing isn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

We've had this skill for years and it's been working fine. When it doesn't save me I don't go "damn this skill sucks it needs more potency". I go "damn well I shouldn't have messed up".

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so, i'm guessing you were staunchly against the EW change to DRK's Living Dead then? after all, we had it in its crappy form for years, and it worked fine..... as a black hole for your healer's resources.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

since like, i wanna say Stormblood, you get a constant regen in every solo instance. at least in every non-RP solo instance. healing isn't an issue.



so, i'm guessing you were staunchly against the EW change to DRK's Living Dead then? after all, we had it in its crappy form for years, and it worked fine..... as a black hole for your healer's resources.

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Why would I be "staunchly against" it? How do you even know I use DRK to begin with to even care about that skill? You assume alot generally speaking.

And sorry LD isn't an apt equivalent for comparison to a role skill. I didn't have an issue with how LD use to work. I mained whm back then so I was always keeping my benediction at the ready when paired up with Drks. I'm also not against the change but don't feel it was needed. Same for this here. SW doesn't need to be touched, but if it is touched yall better not be here whining about healers having even less to do. All I'm gonna say

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I didn't have an issue with how LD use to work. I mained whm back then so I was always keeping my benediction at the ready when paired up with Drks. I'm also not against the change but don't feel it was needed. Same for this here.

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yikes

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

SW doesn't need to be touched, but if it is touched yall better not be here whining about healers having even less to do. All I'm gonna say

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Second Wind is irrelevant in that discussion, because healers want engagement.

someone popping an 8k heal every 2mins doesn't rob us of engagement.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I didn't have an issue with how LD use to work. I mained whm back then so I was always keeping my benediction at the ready when paired up with Drks.

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I can't even think of a good joke for this one. Sometimes someone falls on their face in such a spectacular way there you can't top what just happened, lmao.

That's saved my butt a lot of times as the BRD of the party. It could use a boost or shortening the CD but it's still useful.

Second Wind is fine. If you want more self-healing you can use Bloodoath or potions. DPS roles shouldn't be able to heal substantially, this is the role of healers, so it works as intended.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

yikes



Second Wind is irrelevant in that discussion, because healers want engagement.

someone popping an 8k heal every 2mins doesn't rob us of engagement.

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Wheres the yikes? You gotta do better with these "got yas" man seriously.

You can't then say SW is irrelevant...when YOU were the one who brought a class skill into the discussion. If healers want engagement they need to stop advocating for better healing options for other classes. Have you not payed attention over the years?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Wheres the yikes? You gotta do better with these "got yas" man seriously.

You can't then say SW is irrelevant...when YOU were the one who brought a class skill into the discussion. If healers want engagement they need to stop advocating for better healing options for other classes. Have you not payed attention over the years?

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They are saying "yikes" because it's easier than typing out why old LD is such a subpar skill compared to Holm "lol, can't stop me" gang and Hallowed "I'm ____ invincible" ground. Come on, you are just being willfully ignorant at this point, lmao.
Geeze, even GNB's version of the skill better than old LD. You are just a rabble rouser, arn't ya!

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Originally Posted by Succor

Second Wind is fine. If you want more self-healing you can use Bloodoath or potions.

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And what are BRD/MCH supposed to do when there's not a healer around?

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Originally Posted by Succor

DPS roles shouldn't be able to heal substantially, this is the role of healers, so it works as intended.

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Tanks shouldn't be able to heal substantially either, yet here we are when they can solo dungeon bosses, 8 man raid bosses etc.

The dawn of PvE Recuperate draws near.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And what are BRD/MCH supposed to do when there's not a healer around?

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Kite the mobs and not get hit. They are ranged so it's a no brainer what happens if a ranged anything gets hit. Leg/foot graze exists for a reason, use it man!

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Tanks shouldn't be able to heal substantially either, yet here we are when they can solo dungeon bosses, 8 man raid bosses etc.

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What are you, the mitigation police? Besides, the only tanks that can do that are warrior. Tell a 6.0 drk player who played during 2.0-3.0 to heal themselves and see what kind of answer they have for you, lmao.

The people trying to bring healer engagement into this don’t really understand what most healers are complaining about… The real problem is the design of the healer kits themselves. The lack of downtime buttons, the over abundance of redundant oGCD heals, the deprecation of GCD heals due to said oGCD heal abundance, this is the main issue healers have. The amount of healing we have to do in a fight can also slightly play into our engagement, but that’s ultimately a low priority. How much healing we have to do pretty much always goes away when everyone’s item level goes up.

Phys. Ranged being able heal about the worth of Lustrate every 2 minutes isn’t going to make playing a healer more or less boring, we’re already in a bad spot. They have stuff like Leg Graze and Foot Graze that pretty much only see use in solo content. I think one of these can be replaced for a heal, maybe a regen that recovers a total that’s a little less than what’s recovered with a full uptime Bloodpath.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Besides, the only tanks that can do that are warrior.

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Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Tell a 6.0 drk player who played during 2.0-3.0 to heal themselves and see what kind of answer they have for you, lmao.

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1) We're talking about the game now, not 6 years ago.

2) Even if you want to have that discussion, Dark arts + Abyssal Drain was ridiculously good healing. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me you have no idea what you're talking about.

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So you are telling me that all other tanks have the sustain of war? How about some actual points in your post rather than worthless insults? lmao

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

So you are telling me that all other tanks have the sustain of war? How about some actual points in your post rather than worthless insults? lmao

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You're the one who broadly said "Only Warriors can do that", we weren't talking about sustain in general. But yes. Every tank can solo dungeon bosses without problems. Every single one.

Every tank ended up soloing P1N after the Living Dead change. Every single one.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You're the one who broadly said "Only Warriors can do that", we weren't talking about sustain in general. But yes. Every tank can solo dungeon bosses without problems. Every single one.

Every tank ended up soloing P1N after the Living Dead change. Every single one.

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"after the living dead change"
Yes, they fixed LD so it's not garbage. We have circled around to what that other poster said where the LD rework wasn't needed. Just because LD is just Bloodwhetting with a 300s cooldown. Let's see those drk's clear it before the LD change. Also, if every tank can clear a current- wait a sec, it's just p1 Normal. Are you even arguing in good faith? Meme runs have been a thing for a while since the devs decided to homogenize classes. If you are talking about bigger issues with the game that allowed this to happen then I can get behind it but from where i'm standing you are just upset tanks are not dying compared to dps classes because "Tanks shouldn't be able to heal substantially either". That just sounds like a kid going "But mommy, HE got the better sustain!". That kind of mindset is why every class is being retooled to play the same.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

The people trying to bring healer engagement into this don’t really understand what most healers are complaining about… The real problem is the design of the healer kits themselves. The lack of downtime buttons, the over abundance of redundant oGCD heals, the deprecation of GCD heals due to said oGCD heal abundance, this is the main issue healers have. The amount of healing we have to do in a fight can also slightly play into our engagement, but that’s ultimately a low priority. How much healing we have to do pretty much always goes away when everyone’s item level goes up.

Phys. Ranged being able heal about the worth of Lustrate every 2 minutes isn’t going to make playing a healer more or less boring, we’re already in a bad spot. They have stuff like Leg Graze and Foot Graze that pretty much only see use in solo content. I think one of these can be replaced for a heal, maybe a regen that recovers a total that’s a little less than what’s recovered with a full uptime Bloodpath.

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Healers and whatever complaints they have about their kits and engagement don't have much relevance at all in this matter. I also don't know how the sustainability of tanks entered the conversation either. How the hell did Living Dead make it in here? It boils down to does physical ranged need more self sustain other than SW? If the layers of the subject reveals that there is more going on with physical ranged than just their ability to sustain/assist healers, then sure. However, I think Deceptus was pretty clear in her OP that the role in question is physical ranged, especially with BRD and MCH.

Just necroing this to point out that 6.3 brought about Hyper Potions. Stronger than Second Wind at half the cooldown. A potion is better than a Role Action.

https://i.imgur.com/swH7nw6.jpg

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"after the living dead change"
Yes, they fixed LD so it's not garbage. We have circled around to what that other poster said where the LD rework wasn't needed. Just because LD is just Bloodwhetting with a 300s cooldown. Let's see those drk's clear it before the LD change. Also, if every tank can clear a current- wait a sec, it's just p1 Normal. Are you even arguing in good faith? Meme runs have been a thing for a while since the devs decided to homogenize classes. If you are talking about bigger issues with the game that allowed this to happen then I can get behind it but from where i'm standing you are just upset tanks are not dying compared to dps classes because "Tanks shouldn't be able to heal substantially either". That just sounds like a kid going "But mommy, HE got the better sustain!". That kind of mindset is why every class is being retooled to play the same.

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Pointing at the solo runs of normal modes can not be done in good faith. Yes a warrior has done it when it launched but it took them like 40 minutes or something. That's not a win at this point, that's just suffering.

This argument doesn’t make much sense to me I’m afraid. As a Bard or Dancer you’re not limited to Second Wind for supporting healing; Bards can use Nature’s Minne (which does affect Second Wind), Dancers have Improvisation and Curing Waltz. Machinist doesn’t have anything but then they don’t really seem to have much of anything these days lol. At least they got their wrenches back

Surely if it’s that much of an issue to have and there’s no healers for whatever reason, Hyper Potions could help as previously mentioned. Or just ask the healers to stop spamming Glare etc (it’s frustrating when healers think using a single oGCD is a dps loss lol). Melee already have both Second Wind and Bloodbath

I don’t see the advantage of giving ranged dps even more self-healing, since all it really does is further disincentivises healers from using their actual heals (for which there’s already such a minuscule incentive lol). Maybe I’m just misunderstanding something

In terms of solo content there should really be something like variant/lost actions to let players try and round out their skill set for things like this. I.E DPS equipping Cure etc, healers equipping dps abilities. Honestly I think a system like that for normal content would go a long way to make the game feel less stagnant and classes feel a bit more distinct from each other, but that’s a different thread altogether lol