Healers need an overhaul

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Originally Posted by Loonies

Good players can do this, but i am not a good player, i won't get better. When there was not much content and story anymore for me in WoW, i tried FF14 and now i am happy to have back lot of more easy content with a lot of story. I just do normal dungeons, i leave more difficult runs as savage and ultimate for the better players.
So maybe expert, savage and ultimate runs should be more a challenge for heal as well, but this can be done without more dps buttons.

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And this is where I'm sorely tempted to put my mean veteran healer hat on, because the non-sequitur at the end tells me all I need to know. Riddle me this. If you don't engage with your kit to anywhere near to its fullest, and you -acknowledge- that you don't, and the skill ceiling were to increase without affecting your regular dungeon runs, the problem is.......?

Ah right, I know exactly what the problem is. This is Healers Should Heal Only making its rounds yet again.

See, I hear constant cautioning that veteran healers slow their venom, lest they make casual healers feel bad. Sure, that's an important caution to keep in mind. But I'm also going to point out something less obvious, but I feel is no less important: Sylphies don't want vets having fun either. And you can tell, because their arguments center around making sure that parts of the role they admit in one breath don't affect them stay unfun for people asking for more in the next. This is where the argument graduates from "But the role would be less fun for me if X" and moves into "NO! Healers should HEAL ONLY! Don't give those other healers more damage buttons! That's not your role!"

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Sylphies don't want vets having fun either.

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I imagine that Sylphies don't like that by adding more damage buttons while it might not effect their play it does widen the skill gap and make them look bad, therefore they're against it happening.

iirc Yoshi himself said he was trying to lessen the healer gap by removing damage abilities and consolidating them, therefore making the skill gap look not as bad as it is, a fucking cliff.


Maybe remembering wrong.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

iirc Yoshi himself said he was trying to lessen the healer gap by removing damage abilities and consolidating them, therefore making the skill gap look not as bad as it as, a fucking cliff.

Maybe remembering wrong.

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To be frank, I think this is their ultimate goal for all jobs. Except maybe BLM. But then again, his comment about Enochian button removal proves that not even BLM was off the hook.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

iirc Yoshi himself said he was trying to lessen the healer gap by removing damage abilities and consolidating them, therefore making the skill gap look not as bad as it as, a fucking cliff.

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Never really understood this way of thinking. If the content can be cleared with someone performing at 40% then why rip the fun from the ones who can perform at 100%? You are unable to see damage meters without third party software fricken anyways. Developers spend way way too much of the time worrying about skill gaps that will always exist. Not everyone is as good at everything as everyone else.. You would think this is obvious as anything. Tis fact of reality. Make it one button or twenty and someone will find way to outperform another.

This mad dash to place the skill ceiling so low it merges with the floor only results in boredom for some and stifles the chance for others to grow.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Support has always had lower engagement then other roles because of perception of it being high stress. You can see this from Overwatch to FF14. Even now with all these many changes deeps queue times are still ridiculously long on Primal (watching friends riiiiight now in sixteen minute queue).

What developers should understand is that type of person willing to play role vital to the parties survival then main that role does not think like most other players. Most of us experience the happy chemicals when we succeed despite adversity. For those moments when you recover from near tpk, at the least I do. That one clutch heal, that clever utilization of party buffs to circumvent what should have been one shot mechanic. We enjoy the "high stress" that oft comes with playing healer.

When you strip all of this away you are left with a role that veteran healers no longer wish to play and casual healers never wished to play in first place. Eventually the role dies and the lesson developers take from this is; "Welp! No one is playing healer thus no one wishes too so yeeeet boy!". It is why true support is fading from most major cooperative games. One of the reasons I am here playing FF14 is because it has support classes and proper holy trinity...

Dev team makes content do able without healers so that should you roulette with bad healer you can still clear. This is.. awful design. Can understand their fear of players failing to complete content as those players tend to be particularly loud but still.. please.. by the twelve stop. Healer - Support is not for everyone and this is okay! There are many many other jobs for those types of players.

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Precisely !
I couldn't have said things better.

The whole point of a trinity based game is that : 3 different experiences, 3 different profiles.

For instance : I myself must say I am pretty bad in dps rotations. I don't know... It's not easy for me to do them while constantly moving on the field.

But I'm better in ressource management and I am stimulated by stress urgency , so the healer role fits me naturaly better.

I find the balance team has this thing where they give a job an identity(skill), tie a punishment to said identity in the name of "player choice" and then are surprised when it's not being utilized because the players are being punished for using said identity.

And from the lack of utilization they see: "Well the only thing people want is balance guess we should make everything balance." Instead of "Maybe we shouldn't have tied damage increases to utility."
Almost as if their hubris blinds them to their design failures. "Oh you don't want to use AST cards? Don't worry you won't have any cards to play with when I'm done with you."

And when they removed energy drain from SCH, trying to force SCHs to heal. "Why won't you heal!?!" and then when the backlash came they had to begrudgingly give it back only to release another class later with essentially the exact same skills(SGE) except in a different paint job without energy drain, "You can't complain about no energy drain if we don't give you energy drain. NOW YOU HAVE TO HEAL!"

With the way SGE was additionally touted as being the "damage healer" pre-Endwalkers release you would think they would've figured out you can't tie damage on healers to support skills, but no.
It's the same way all the other healers are and it's a level below the way healers were in Stormblood, every healer in Stormblood(save AST) had more damaging skills than SGE does and SGE is the "damage healer" what a joke.

The fact the healer has to choose between damage and support in a game where damage is everything is a hilarious oversight that the devs have continued to perpetuate up until just the last update to lilies making them damage neutral.
And they can't even give us the common courtesy of making Toxicon damage neutral.

It's as if they're punishing the healers for choosing the superior option, damage, every single time.
"How dare you play the game the way it's supposed to be played you're supposed to heal!"

It's somehow the healers fault the entire game is based around damage not the developers.

The complete disconnect the dev team has to healers is now so obvious to me looking back on these past few years. The first iteration of lilies for WHM was a perfect example of a punishing identity that served no purpose other than to simply exist. Nobody paid attention to it, most people wanted to figure out if they could actually turn off the bar itself instead of just minimizing it. They left it like that for so long hopefully not thinking: "This is fine, everything is working as intended."

Hopefully they get someone on the dev team that understands it's not the identity the players dislike it's the punishment they add to the identity.

Edit:

Oh yeah here's a snippet from a past interview with Yoshi.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be, so we adjusted all 3 Healers to be more balanced while keeping their original characteristics alive. Content can be cleared on any of the Healers, but Scholar in particular had a much bigger toolkit for attacking and player feedback on Healers always focused on the ease or difficulty of putting out DPS numbers. This is why we wanted to precisely redefine the role a Healer has while balancing all 3 and then giving them characteristics through their attacks. A big part was that we sorted out the remainders you had as a Scholar from being an Arcanist first. Please try to look at the changes as us trying to balance Scholar as a Healer and not just trying to lower the DPS output of a Scholar.

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Also Yoshi

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Almost all healing spells the Whitemage had required you to cast, they had high healing potency, but you always where in a situation where you had to time your heals to the incoming damage and you had to precast your heal in most cases. You couldn’t start moving until you had finished your healing cast which left very little space for DPSing and the feedback we received indicated that this was causing more stress to the Whitemage players compared to players who played Scholar or Astrologian. Because of this our adjustments on Whitemage tried to focus on increasing possibilities for your next action and making it easier to move instead of just buffing DPS potencies. You can choose to use this mobility for DPSing or preparing for the next heal. In any case main focus for Whitemage adjustments were to increase mobility and give the player more freedom of choice for their next action. In addition, we felt like Healing Lilies were difficult to use efficiently, so we changed these to automatically start charging up once you enter battle. When a Lily is charged, you can use it for instant heals and increase mobility.

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

snip!

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Many thanks person!

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

snip 2

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Damage is umm, damage is the great equalizer for resolving issues in most video games.

You cannot heal the boss to death and you cannot beat Dark Souls by chugging Estus. Because of this damage will always be prioritized during high difficulty content. Damage = dead = no more healing required = clear.

Every mmo I have played I do damage on my healers. Every mmo my uncle has played (30+ year mmo vet) he tells me healers did damage, even in WoW.

You cannot force a veteran healer to do more healing and no damage because we will always identify times where damage is possible. Uncertain why they struggle buss with this concept..

"We wish to encourage healers to heal more" > Implements mechanics that tickle in all midcore content to not stress out healers then makes Savage fight clearable without any healers. ???

Meanwhile over in Swtor land my Sorcerer's largest burst heal was triggered by using my burst deeps skill. Bosses in there also hit significantly harder then they do in FF14.

This is the same job design team that thought it was okay for tank invuln to kill the tank. Kinda runs contrary to purpose of invuln skill dontcha think? Punishing is okay when combined with recovery (new Living Dead). Punishing because reasons (old lilies) is not okay. Why were deeps negative lilies our movement tech but Black Mage gets two charges of Triple Cast? Dumb. Big dumb.

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

Here I present you the new healer tutorial in FFXIV :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlc-...4M_18NhpPR3ojs

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https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2021/wd0h4g.gif

So, some general suggestions.

Every Healer gets an AoE DoT. For the sake of differentiating jobs, let's say the ones for WHM/SGE do NOT stack with their ST variant while the ones for SCH/AST do stack.
Several removed skills make a return as low level versions of existing skills (Divine Seal for Temperance, Rouse is Seraph, etc). This is to make the leveling experience more enjoyable/accessible since, let's be honest here, anything below level 70/80 is absolutely awful and needs to be addressed.

WHM:

• Regen/Medica 2 will gain a proc akin to Thundercloud that turns Aero/Dia into free cast skills that deal their DoT duration damage as upfront damage in a similar fashion to BLM's Thunder.
• Water/Banish is added and will provide WHM a 5% damage increase for the next 30s.
• Divine Seal, Fluid Aura, Protect and Stoneskin all return as low level versions of Temperance, Assize, Aqua Veil and Divine Benison respectively.
• Afflatus Rapture and Solace unlock at level 30.
• Freecure upgrades Cure 1 into Cure 2.

SCH:

• Bane and Miasma return.
• Eos and Selene are now slightly different.
  1. Selene's Whispering Dawn will heal for less upfront but has a longer duration, while Eos will heal for more quickly but have a lower duration but both will heal for the same total potency.
  2. Selene will receive Fey Covenant to act as an inverse of Fey Illumination, reducing the damage the party takes by 10% instead of 5% but only increases healing received by 5% instead of 10%.
  3. Fey Blessing will be lowered down to level 30 and will provide a Shield effect for Selene or a Heal with Eos.
• The Fairy Gauge now unlocks are level 20 with Whispering Dawn and starts off at 100 upon entering an instance and each fairy ability will now use 25 gauge to utilize. All your GCD attacks will restore 5 gauge each, Aetherflow abilities will continue to restore 10 gauge. DoTs have a 50% proc to restore 5 more gauge per tic.
• Aetherpact will no longer tether your fairy to a party member but will summon your unused fairy to the target, causing them to heal the target only. This frees up your fairy to continue to utilize her other abilities without the clunkiness of applying and reapplying the tether if you wish to utilize her other abilities.
• Energy Drain is changed to a 1m oGCD attack with 2 charges that, upon use, will turn Art of War into Shadowflare and Ruin 2 into Ruination. Shadowflare will cause a slow on all targets hit while Ruination has the same potency as Broil and will reduce the damage the target does by 5% for 15s with. Both these effects have a 1 minute CD.
• Rouse and Eye for an Eye return as low level Seraph and Protraction. Protraction can be spread with Deployment tactics.

AST:

• New AoE skill called Nebula is added.
• Cards are now divided into Major and Minor Arcana.
• Balance, Spear and Arrow will be Major and provide D.Hit, Crit, and Determination.
• Bole, Spire and Ewer will be Minor and provide Mitigation, Healing Received and Shielding.
• Seals are gone entirely and Astrodyne is turned into a 120s CD with all 3 benefits consistently on it.
• Time Dilation returns as low level Exaltation and Synastry is reworked to be low level Celestial Intersection

SGE:

• Given a 1-2-3 Combo. Finishing the combo grants 1 Addersting.

I can't really think of much to really add to SGE so I just went with a basic thing to make Addersting more accessible.

Just like to add my own 2 cent. Can we also give some mercy to people wanting to level up WHM, SCH and AST. What if the player wants to go through the MSQ and play it as an healer? Or go do relic weapons for the healer.

Tl;dr: healers need an overhaul.

Idk why i have to point out this out. But ff14 has more content than dungeon, trails, savage and ultimates. I have gone through heavensward MSQ twice (i have 2 characters) once as what ever job i wanted toghter with a friend of mine. And once as WHM not only for the expiernence of playing as healer. But that sweat sweat insta queue. But thats were is notice playing healer is boring. Having to press 1 button until i killed everything.

People can say just play dps through the portion that doesnt require you to play as healer. You not only are ignoring a flaw to healer but are also 'taking away' the freedom to play how some may like to play the game. Like do you pay their sub or something? :p

So for all the people defending glare mages.
All i ask for people is play new game plus as healer. From arr to what ever. Heck make a new character even. And just stick to healers. Maybe you'll see what i mean or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Same same can be done for current dungeons too; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cjebgV9A

Nothing makes you excited to main a role like being completely irrelevant.. He even wall pulls..

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Jesus christ, the heale role is dead. :(

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This is where the argument graduates from "But the role would be less fun for me if X" and moves into "NO! Healers should HEAL ONLY! Don't give those other healers more damage buttons! That's not your role!"

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Unlike my first post i am reading this thread now. And man as a lurker on thia forum i also notice this. It is like the 'healer only heals' crowd doesnt like it when people play the same job different than they do.
It almost feels like this toxic behaviour you find at work were some people hate it when this one guy is doing the same job way better than everybody else. It starts to make them look bad.

"Healers should heal" - i dont know but what and where ? What MMO does this ?
WoW = nope
GW2 = nope
ESO = nope
Lost Ark= nope
Black Deset = nope

Just to name some of the big one's and some of them dont even use the trinity system (tank, healer, dps). I dont know how or from what they draw the conclusion but no game i know of has the "healers should heal" nonsense. For a simple reason: Because its boring and bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Ralt21

Just like to add my own 2 cent. Can we also give some mercy to people wanting to level up WHM, SCH and AST. What if the player wants to go through the MSQ and play it as an healer? Or go do relic weapons for the healer.

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I think my quote in my signature speaks for itself.

Also, I'll remind everyone that YoshiP intends for the game to be solo friendly. How is WHM, AST, SGE and SCH solo friendly when for most duty content you're pressing ONE BUTTON.

Also also, my signature addresses "go play DPS for MSQ".

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

"Healers should heal" - i dont know but what and where ? What MMO does this ?
WoW = nope
GW2 = nope
ESO = nope
Lost Ark= nope
Black Deset = nope

Just to name some of the big one's and some of them dont even use the trinity system (tank, healer, dps). I dont know how or from what they draw the conclusion but no game i know of has the "healers should heal" nonsense. For a simple reason: Because its boring and bad game design.

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The only game other then FF I can speak to in this list is WoW and the healers over there absolutely have healing as the priority. To prove my case I checked Warcraft Logs, and here's what I found

(These are the number of casts)

https://i.imgur.com/Jj8QdoW.png

https://i.imgur.com/FxBul1g.png

Now, WoW has a couple advantages in their healer design that lets them do this. One, there are classes that can heal by doing damage, like Sage but more in depth then just "Heal Kardia target for 130", like Mistweaver Monk or Discipline Priest. Two, the raid comps are more flexible, so you can trade healers out for actual DPS classes if the not a lot of healing is required.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

You cannot heal the boss to death and you cannot beat Dark Souls by chugging Estus. Because of this damage will always be prioritized during high difficulty content. Damage = dead = no more healing required = clear.

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I mean there was that one boss in icc in wow you needed to fully heal, but that really is the exception to the rule.

Usualy healing is the first thing to be optimized away by players, even if just by not standing in the Bad.

But FFXIV doesnt give Healers much, if any other capabilties so they devolve into brainless 1 Button spam.

If pure dps button are such a Nono, why not give every healer some Buffy/debuffs to manage?
Make AST cards a bit more granular again.
Maybe take the old damage type debuffs and give them all to one of the Healers to make them have to prioritize them differently depending on party make Up.
Give SCH E4E Back.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

"Healers should heal" - i dont know but what and where ? What MMO does this ?
WoW = nope
GW2 = nope
ESO = nope
Lost Ark= nope
Black Deset = nope

Just to name some of the big one's and some of them dont even use the trinity system (tank, healer, dps). I dont know how or from what they draw the conclusion but no game i know of has the "healers should heal" nonsense. For a simple reason: Because its boring and bad game design.

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It can be done right but it's not inclusive friendly, you'll get hard capped on certain content simply because of your reaction time. You should've played Tera before it became shit. Also it's shutting down after June 31st.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

The only game other then FF I can speak to in this list is WoW and the healers over there absolutely have healing as the priority. To prove my case I checked Warcraft Logs, and here's what I found

(These are the number of casts)

https://i.imgur.com/Jj8QdoW.png

https://i.imgur.com/FxBul1g.png

Now, WoW has a couple advantages in their healer design that lets them do this. One, there are classes that can heal by doing damage, like Sage but more in depth then just "Heal Kardia target for 130", like Mistweaver Monk or Discipline Priest. Two, the raid comps are more flexible, so you can trade healers out for actual DPS classes if the not a lot of healing is required.

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My WoW is a little rusty, but if I'm interpreting those charts right and assuming they're from the same fight ....that druid was doing jack (unless they were in cat form and those abilities don't show in tha chart) while the priest is actually using their full kit - shadow word: pain, divine star, holy fire, smite, holy word: chastise, those are all dps spells. And that's a holy priest, the "healbot" healer

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Originally Posted by Allegor

My WoW is a little rusty, but if I'm interpreting those charts right and assuming they're from the same fight ....that druid was doing jack (unless they were in cat form and those abilities don't show in tha chart) while the priest is actually using their full kit - shadow word: pain, divine star, holy fire, smite, holy word: chastise, those are all dps spells. And that's a holy priest, the "healbot" healer

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Mine is rusty as well, I just grabbed some random top logs from the front page. But either way, having core healing spells at the top of the list as opposed to the generic DPS filler is the point.

Edit: I double checked the Druid log and they scored an 80 on the DPS parse, though it's *of 25 parses, since I picked Mythic Jailer.

A simple truth here : Wow has a different encounter design and only if you change the encounter design of FF14 your "more healing and not generic dps filler" will work. And be honest this is not going to happen. So we have the fact that the encounter design will not change. So the only 2 option we have is Buff/Debuffing and DPs. Buff/Debuffing is also not happening, not after SE cut most of it away. So the only viable choice is "DPS". I like the thought of a more complex healing but FF14 will not have it.

Kind of annoying that people always bring up WoW at every turn but anyway...

Between the graphs (I know you mentioned they were random) but it's kind of giving the impression of a newbie WHM spamming cure II out of panic while the other could be from a vet who just got an interesting group but could still find moments to use more of their kit... It doesn't really set the tone that WoW actually designed their game to be more heal intense or not. At least not from someone like me who's never played WoW.

I come from a long line of games that mostly got rid of the trinity.. and the last game I played before choosing this one as my home was Blade and Soul. SMN in that game was the healer and I don't remember building my SMN to be a pure healer (don't even think you could honestly) ... hence I only had one heal while the rest of my kit was related to my summons and the actual summoner attacking. Thinking back all the way to my first game, healers where always treated as either support or green dps but never a pure healer.. for a damn good reason. The few games others mention on these threads (I forget the name of those games lol) where healers was pure healers were, what it sounds like, was because the games designed the encounters to hit like a truck and possibly around the fact of healers having weak heals... but even if we ask for that, a very vocal and stressed out group of healers would spook Yoshi and his team into thinking healers need even more heals ... stronger ones..because..reasons.

Hence putting us full circle of us asking for more utility or dps to help create a skill ceiling, that use to exist and needs to come back... badly.

Just a bit more to do damage wise on the healers, nothing crazy

Make scholar a dot management healer
White mage could be like black mage and have some deeper mechanic with lily's that alters their spells
Astro more buffs? they already have the lowest personal dps so making this the healer to play if you want to be full support sounds good, just add more buffs
And sage, i'm not sure, but i'd like to see their damage-healing mechanic be expanded upon so it's not just the scholar fairy in practice

Just my 2 cents on what they could do

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Between the graphs (I know you mentioned they were random) but it's kind of giving the impression of a newbie WHM spamming cure II out of panic while the other could be from a vet who just got an interesting group but could still find moments to use more of their kit... It doesn't really set the tone that WoW actually designed their game to be more heal intense or not. At least not from someone like me who's never played WoW.

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Just to be clear, the logs I used as reference are from random clears of Mythic Jailer, which in context would be roughly equivalent to first month Ultimate clears. Top of the top players.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Just to be clear, the logs I used as reference are from random clears of Mythic Jailer, which in context would be roughly equivalent to first month Ultimate clears. Top of the top players.

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Thanks for that! Well now I have to ask, was all content of WoW like this or just end game? To where healers could act as pure healers in most content or was more of a mix?

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Thanks for that! Well now I have to ask, was all content of WoW like this or just end game? To where healers could act as pure healers in most content or was more of a mix?

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Back when I played (wotl/Cats) healing was indeed mostly healing in most content. Pretty sure I got to use what CC and utility (decurse,manaregen, Detox,...) As often as my damage skills in all content. Granted that's just my anecdotal memory.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

Back when I played (wotl/Cats) healing was indeed mostly healing in most content. Pretty sure I got to use what CC and utility (decurse,manaregen, Detox,...) As often as my damage skills in all content. Granted that's just my anecdotal memory.

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I see, I ask this only because those who've been playing this game much longer than me would often times mention SE being inspired by WoW over the years. Just trying to figure out just how much inspiration is spilling over even though, the way WoW players talk about it, it seems like entirely different game designs from the start... well at least anytime I read about it anyway. Anyway, I appreciate the feedback though.

Yeah, as far as Healing goes, WoW is/was a compeltely different beast. I usually se/saw it refered to as triage healing and not without reason.

Loads of damage, and Mana and thus heals were for the most part a somewhat finite resource.

Where as healing in FFXIV has been, for the time I've been playing it at least, much more laid back comparatively. no need to top up people asap, rather generous MP regeneration, and once you get used to your kit, ample time to contribute DPS to beat enrage etc. And back then that non-healign part was engaging. Figuring out what to do with any given AST card or keepign all the DoTs on SCH up was somethign to do and kept you thinkign about what was going on. Can't comment on WHM from back then as I don't really play it.

How about this: The devs stop being cute and we just kick healers off the necessary slot for duty finder. Honestly, I'm so burnt out from having my favorite job butchered since StB and so irritated that the game can basically be played without them that I want to just queue up without needing to wait for the local Glarebot.

I'm done. I'm burnt. I'm a PLD main now. I don't need a healer. Dump 3DPS on me and let's go.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

https://i.imgur.com/FxBul1g.png

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It's kind of funny seeing that the holy priest has to significantly heal more but has more dps spells then ffxiv lol. Holy priest casts 124 DPS spell casts which is actually quite a bit of the overall spell casts that is spread across 7 spells that are pretty evenly spread. Meanwhile in ffxiv we have healers going 150+ casts of glare, broil, melific, dosis broken up with 30 sec dot with about 20 casts per fight.
It's actually embarrassing how bad the DPS options are for healers

Once upon a time, during patch 2.3, there was an exploit in the Ramuh fight where it was possible to do the fight with no tanks at all.

It was corected in no time because they didn't want a whole role to become unnecessary...

Ha ha ha....

Healers and tanks. Tanks got so much self heal it's just sad. I can solo tank bosses in expert. Solo as no DPS and healer.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

Good players can do this, but i am not a good player, i won't get better. When there was not much content and story anymore for me in WoW, i tried FF14 and now i am happy to have back lot of more easy content with a lot of story. I just do normal dungeons, i leave more difficult runs as savage and ultimate for the better players.
So maybe expert, savage and ultimate runs should be more a challenge for heal as well, but this can be done without more dps buttons.

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8 years too late for that reply there buddy, hardest EX we ever got was Thordan EX and no EX has been that hard since, content hasn’t changed its difficulty curve since Stormblood and the game has only grown the devs ain’t changing the content difficulty, they have had multiple expansions to do so and choose nah fam we good, this leaves job design as the only thing that can change for healers situation to get better, which the devs are completely ignoring what they have done to them, so no changes will happen until a mass healer exodus actually happens at this stage but I’ll go over my gripes in a separate post.

So my gripes with healer design:

Let’s start off with the side the devs want us to focus on, the healing side of our toolkit.

Healing toolkit:

-Let’s start with the elephant in the room, the healing side of the healing toolkit is fundamentally broken from the ground up on a design level, what do I mean?, I am talking how the devs have oversaturated the healing toolkit so much it now actively makes its own healing tools redundant, that is a level of failure in job design that should not be accepted ever but they just do not see the issue. They have continuously said healers have had button bloat but have always ignored the obvious buttons to condense and remove to go after an ill conceived bogeyman that barely existed. Cure 1 and Benefic 1 and their associated procs can be condensed into level up system they do with the dps spells all they would have to do is lower the no cost of Cure II and Benefic II, if this happened no one would bat an eye and no one would miss them.
-Ogcds healing tools are too readily available and are making the healing gcd tools get the scowl of Lahabrea aka “Pathetic” or the last resort, this gets exasperated the more skilled at healing you get
-The reward for timing your heals, managing your resources is terrible for healers, this actively incentivises people to not get better at their role because why bother if all I get is tedium incarnate for a reward
-This ties in with the above point, Non healer jobs especially tanks have far far too many healing options for themselves, this actively makes healers feel like they are not worth bringing into content because if the War can self heal for the full dungeon why is a healer needed, if dps can keep their hp above lethal damage then healers are just for show, this doesn’t even need the healer to be a skilled player in fact they could be a literal cat sitting on the keyboard and the content would be cleared this is a design issue across the board and actively hurts healers.
-Top end content always has people try and see if they can no tank and no healer it because more dps = faster kills, instead of praising the skill it took for non healer clears we should all be collectively shoving it into the devs face and go “Look at the content you are designing, look at the jobs you are designing, an entire role is being ignored and allowed to be ignored for your hard content that is unacceptable standards”, they nerfed chicken nugget(Titan-egi) back when smn’s made tanks redundant for Ramuh EX but now that healers are summarily being made redundant in fights full silence.

(I’m on mobile so condensing the posts into a single one will have to wait, if I even remember)

DPS side of the healer toolkit:

-It is boring and fundamentally doesn’t change from level 8, yeah those next 82 levels of the msq/over world/solo instances are the same buttons, you’ll branch out to hit the occasional different button(Assize/Energy Drain/Card etc) but your gcd will remain whatever you mapped Stone/Ruin/Malefic to and whatever your DoT is mapped to every 30s, your AoE is almost never needed outside dungeons, and Sage shouldn’t press their other dps options because it is a dps loss otherwise and thus making the fights take longer for them if they do.

I ultimately want the job design team and Yoshi P to be forced to play healers for a month that should be more than enough time for them to be really sick and tired of their 1s and 2s.(not petty in the slightest I swear /s but all seriousness it generally feels like no one on the job design team or has any say in job design actively plays a healer like players do and there now feels like a huge disconnect between seasoned healer players and devs)

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Just to be clear, the logs I used as reference are from random clears of Mythic Jailer, which in context would be roughly equivalent to first month Ultimate clears. Top of the top players.

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Uncle just showed us that fight, he also showed us Litch King fight (his last expansion) and holy canolli! I do not think I counted more then six seconds where multiple party members were not taking booku damage. I would kill to experience that in FF14. Reminds me of certain Swtor ops and the World Bosses. Damage was constantly occurring, you would be lucky to have five second windup into fifteen plus seconds of inactivity.

Boss is glowing umm *blam blam blam* for thirty consecutive seconds of constant tank busters. Hope you saved the good skills!

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

Healers and tanks. Tanks got so much self heal it's just sad. I can solo tank bosses in expert. Solo as no DPS and healer.

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This is not new. Tanks have been able to solo dungeon bosses as far back as I can remember. Coincounter in Aurum Vale, First boss in Qarn, Chimera in Cutter's Cry can all be soloed by the tank. Healers are greatly needed in dungeons in order to make insane and more fun trash pulls possible. Against bosses, they make them die faster. Boring? Yes, sometimes. Have you ever been the tank soloing a boss; feeling like you're slapping it with a wet noodle while your teammates get to sit on their thumbs? Not only boring, but now in this really awkward situation where I am not sure if am being an a-hole, or not.

Problem isn't healing design per say, but rather the threat level of the dungeon boss(es). But they can't make dungeon bosses like the 'Hunt for Red Choctober', or the pitchfork mobs will bring out the tar and feathers due to the number of resets in content that is meant for you to be like the Army, and just go in and 'correct' the situation by blowing everything up. They can however, make the boss enrage if all players but one are unconscious for a pre-determined amount of time.

Healer overhaul will only happen the day Yoshida will stop seeing sprouts as stupid players with hands full of thumbs.

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Originally Posted by Acece

It's kind of funny seeing that the holy priest has to significantly heal more but has more dps spells then ffxiv lol. Holy priest casts 124 DPS spell casts which is actually quite a bit of the overall spell casts that is spread across 7 spells that are pretty evenly spread. Meanwhile in ffxiv we have healers going 150+ casts of glare, broil, melific, dosis broken up with 30 sec dot with about 20 casts per fight.
It's actually embarrassing how bad the DPS options are for healers

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I'll just break down the Holy Priest dps rotation for our friends on here. First thing to note is that Holy Priest is the equivalent of White Mage, a pure healer with fat heals and not much complicated going on. The healbot healer. And yet they have...

Shadow Word: Pain - Generic Single Target Dot (think Dia)
Holy Fire - Single Target Hit + Dot, Dot can be stacked
Holy Word: Chastise - Single Target Hit with a cooldown, also CCs when applicable.
Smite - Generic Single Target filler spell, but each cast reduces the cooldown on Chastise, and has a chance to reset the cooldown on Holy Fire
Shadow Word: Death - Big damage only below 20% enemy health, but hurts you too if it doesn't kill, so you need to be mindful of your own health.
Divine Star - Damage and Healing in a line, think Assize, considerable cooldown.

No thanks my sage is fine don't know about the other healer since i only up them to 90 and never touch them again but stay away from muh sage.

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Originally Posted by Syln

No thanks my sage is fine don't know about the other healer since i only up them to 90 and never touch them again but stay away from muh sage.

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Essentially the same as sage in my experience....barely use anything other than ur single casted spell n break the mind numbing drool off my mouth by using a ogcd