Current EX trial completed without Healers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Wow cool, don't care.

---

Cared so little that you had to make a post about it :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Wow cool, don't care.

---

"Oh no, someone in a coma might not be able to complete "extreme" difficulty content. We should definitely take away the healer dots. Those are too hard to manage." - A good designer

Hyperbole galore. But that's not a surprise, we're on the drama queen forum after all.

"An entire role not needed"
You are all so appalled at this, as if these trials couldn't be cleared easily without DPS or without tanks.

The game is designed for the general playerbase. An average clear does not look like this.

Been the same every expansion tbh. They also said they weren't going to increase the healing requirements. So kinda hard for me to put my surprised Pikachu face on. Just same old.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wonder just how low healing requirements would have to get before current healer design white knights would actually admit that healing gameplay is designed poorly?

Because apparently five whole unavoidable raidwides in an entire "extreme" encounter you can cover with dancer heals isn't down there yet.

Enjoy casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I can't imagine calling this slop "good design".

---

No really, I'm actually curious. What's the tipping point (glare glare glare glare glare glare glare glare glare) where (broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil) a Sylphietron 6.0 would consider healing design (malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic) to be in major need of improvement? (dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis)

Because casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again coupled with healing requirements so low that a team of Dancers can do it isn't there yet.

"Hyperbolic drama queens" please. Enjoy casing Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil, I'm so glad the healer role has undergone intense stupidification so you guys can play Cookie Clicker with a monthly sub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

"Oh no, someone in a coma might not be able to complete "extreme" difficulty content. We should definitely take away the healer dots. Those are too hard to manage." - A good designer

---

I know right, while we're at it why don't we make the nuke do a 500 potency shield + heal on allies everytime you cast it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Cared so little that you had to make a post about it :rolleyes:

---

I'm just checking to see if people like you care enough to respond to my lack of care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

No really, I'm actually curious. What's the tipping point (glare glare glare glare glare glare glare glare glare) where (broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil broil) a Sylphietron 6.0 would consider healing design (malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic malefic) to be in major need of improvement? (dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis dosis)

Because casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again coupled with healing requirements so low that a team of Dancers can do it isn't there yet.

"Hyperbolic drama queens" please. Enjoy casing Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil, I'm so glad the healer role has undergone intense stupidification so you guys can play Cookie Clicker with a monthly sub.

---

THe tipping point for me is when I get bored enough to play something else for a little bit and come back once my boredom is sated. There's more to this game then playing a healer, you find something else to do and come back once you're feeling up to the task again, or you don't come back and let all the people who still think healing is the hardest role take over your spot while you play something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm just checking to see if people like you care enough to respond to my lack of care.

---

Galaxy brain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

THe tipping point for me is when I get bored enough to play something else for a little bit and come back once my boredom is sated. There's more to this game then playing a healer, you find something else to do and come back once you're feeling up to the task again, or you don't come back and let all the people who still think healing is the hardest role take over your spot while you play something else.

---

If that's your approach then why come back to the boring healing at all and not stay at the far more exciting jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Hyperbole galore. But that's not a surprise, we're on the drama queen forum after all.

"An entire role not needed"
You are all so appalled at this, as if these trials couldn't be cleared easily without DPS or without tanks.

The game is designed for the general playerbase. An average clear does not look like this.

---

Fun story:

Back in 2.0, I figured that I could stack enough vit to survive mountain busters from TitanHM as a White Mage when coupled with a virus rotation and good shielding. It worked and the agro I could generate easily outstripped anything a Tank could ever hope to generate back then.. Keep in mind that this was at a time when pugs would routinely refuse to let Warriors tank this fight.

It got nerfed immediately in the very next patch weeks later.

Fun Story 2:

Back in patch 2.3, Summoners figured you could tank Ramuh with Titan-Egi and go tankless to simplify things.

This didn't even wait for the next patch. SE promptly rolled out a hotfix to stomp this one out.

It's all hyperbole, unless you're a tank. Tell you what else is hyperbole. Suggesting you could clear HydEX's add phase easily without Tanks :rolleyes:

Granted, I'll give you the DPS point, that's kind of a byproduct of a game that asks even less of the DPS than it does the healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

The game is designed for the general playerbase. An average clear does not look like this.

---

The better groups get at the content, the more likely it will be able to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Galaxy brain.



If that's your approach then why come back to the boring healing at all and not stay at the far more exciting jobs.

---

Don't be absurd. We want to heal and it to as it used to be. Actually, make use of our strong heals more than 1 minute every 10 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

Don't be absurd. We want to heal and it to as it used to be. Actually, make use of our strong heals more than 1 minute every 10 minutes.

---

You might've misunderstood me.
All i'm pointing out is the paradoxical opinion of Brandedblade that when they get too bored of healer gameplay they just play a different job for a while and see that as a perfectly acceptable solution.
While typing this in a thread about current endgame content being completed without a healer in its party composition and instead 2 tanks and 6 "exciting" DPS jobs.
which they care so little about i really wonder what's the point of making void responses that contribute nothing to the discussion.

I too would wish for healer gameplay to be more exciting but it feels like YoshiP (or who ever makes Healer Class design decisions) would rather uncharacteristically do the WoW Dev thing and decide what they think is best for us rather than listen to any of our feedback. This is as fruitless as getting the dev team to make Living dead not suck at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Been the same every expansion tbh. They also said they weren't going to increase the healing requirements. So kinda hard for me to put my surprised Pikachu face on. Just same old.

---

They did say they were going to increase healing requirements though. Did you see my post?

We have been trying to make it so that healers are required to perform more heals. The content damage that you are receiving becomes a little more intense, so that healers are a bit more busy,” said Yoshida in the interview, via a live translator. “We are trying to make it so that healers are working a bit harder to do more heals in a battle encounter for sure, and that is kind of the trend that we are trending towards.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

It's all hyperbole, unless you're a tank. Tell you what else is hyperbole. Suggesting you could clear HydEX's add phase easily without Tanks :rolleyes:

Granted, I'll give you the DPS point, that's kind of a byproduct of a game that asks even less of the DPS than it does the healers.

---

Your objection is with the word "easily". Glad to see we agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They did say they were going to increase healing requirements though. Did you see my post?

We have been trying to make it so that healers are required to perform more heals. The content damage that you are receiving becomes a little more intense, so that healers are a bit more busy,” said Yoshida in the interview, via a live translator. “We are trying to make it so that healers are working a bit harder to do more heals in a battle encounter for sure, and that is kind of the trend that we are trending towards.”

---

And yet people keep spreading misinformation like that in many posts

I'm starting to think it's their intention to twist what the developer actually said to push their own agenda, especially those post asking for more dps options for healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Been the same every expansion tbh. They also said they weren't going to increase the healing requirements. So kinda hard for me to put my surprised Pikachu face on. Just same old.

---

Just going to post this here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAbCjPPS1RQ

Interview done in the Endwalker media tour. Healing question starts at 2:44 with reply at 4:25. Quote from yoshi-p, through his translator of course, "So with the fundamental thinking behind how we're adjusting healers, and this pertains to 5.x and beyond, we have been trying to make it so that healers are more - will require for them to perform more heals - so the content damage that you are receiving becomes a little more intense so that healers are a bit more busy."

There's more after that of course, but safe to say that was a bit of a lie hmm?

For example, looking at one of my EX2 Trial runs this weekend, we had a run that was a total mess, 8 deaths, people were drunk, etc. Looking at the healers, even in a terrible run, we had a WHM with 70%+ dps casts (Glare + Dia) and a Sage with 65% ish.

Let's assume that he isn't lying when he says that they are trying to push healers healing. It then becomes clear that there are other design goals that are coming into conflict with that.

If I were going to ask questions, I'd start with asking how they resolve these conflicts, using these high skill healerless runs as a starting point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irenia

Let's assume that he isn't lying when he says that they are trying to push healers healing. It then becomes clear that there are other design goals that are coming into conflict with that.

If I were going to ask questions, I'd start with asking how they resolve these conflicts, using these high skill healerless runs as a starting point.

---

I don't think he's lying. What good would that do realistically? It's been said before that the combat design team is small and doesn't contain anyone that actively plays as a healer. There's just a severe lack of field knowledge about the role, and what happens is they make changes that sound good on paper without really testing them with the knowledge and experience of a healer main.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Your objection is with the word "easily". Glad to see we agree.

---

I'm just not saying it's impossible because you know how that goes in this game. Been there, done that myself.

However, managing those adds, positioning them quickly and keeping agro off the healers strikes me as a pretty mighty challenge tbh. I'm legitimately not sure the agro side of it would actually be possible given the amount of healing a DPS is going to need to survive them for roughly a minute.

So no, you don't get to put words in my mouth on this one thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aword3213

And yet people keep spreading misinformation like that in many posts

I'm starting to think it's their intention to twist what the developer actually said to push their own agenda, especially those post asking for more dps options for healers.

---

If I'm not mistaken I think we got some pretty mixed messages on healing between the different community interviews Yoshida did for Endwalker no?

I remember one of the earlier ones being really quite disappointing (Mr Happy's?) whilst he opened up and actually gave some interesting answers in one of the later ones (Zepla?).

How accurate and true to the game said answers are are of course rather questionable. I can't fault what Yoshida's done for this game but it's been shown on several occasions over the years that he doesn't always correctly understand it's finer workings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm just not saying it's impossible because you know how that goes in this game. Been there, done that myself.

However, managing those adds, positioning them quickly and keeping agro off the healers strikes me as a pretty mighty challenge tbh. I'm legitimately not sure the agro side of it would actually be possible given the amount of healing a DPS is going to need to survive them for roughly a minute.

So no, you don't get to put words in my mouth on this one thanks.

---

I'm not putting words in your mouth, unless you're suggesting it can't be cleared. If that's the case, you're just wrong. If you think a DPS can't hold aggro over single target healing (doubt), simply let healers tank. A bit of coordination goes a long way.

And this is as far as I'll go, because it's going away from my original point: other roles too can be excluded in these extremes, healers are not special.

The killer question then is of course….. why hasn’t it been done

So this happened in a random pug I joined trying to get more practice with ninja.
https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=474

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't think he's lying. What good would that do realistically? It's been said before that the combat design team is small and doesn't contain anyone that actively plays as a healer. There's just a severe lack of field knowledge about the role, and what happens is they make changes that sound good on paper without really testing them with the knowledge and experience of a healer main.

---

But as a developer you need to make sure you have people who actively play each role. The fact that none of the devs play a healer kind of speaks volumes itself doesn’t it? It’s clearly not a fun role for them. They don’t see that as a reason to change it? Not to mention they’ve made so much money they’ve had so much time to hire more people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

So this happened in a random pug I joined trying to get more practice with ninja.
https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=474

---

But remember blue heals are fake numbers that don't actually matter.

Sorry, have to come here to vent, I'm so done with DRKstans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

I just don’t get anything the devs do anymore.

They act like healers will be desperately struggling to keep even a sliver of the party’s HP up, then release content that literally doesn’t even need them?
They act like the healer role is some extremely stressful, infinitely pressured job…then give the majority of dps and all four tanks powerful healing and defense cool downs? How can healers be so pressured by healing when Dancers/Reapers/Paladins/Warriors can do it all for them?

We aren’t allowed to have buffs or support gcds to manage or use, we aren’t allowed to have anything to heal, we aren’t allowed to do big shiny dps moves that are actually fun to use…what do they think is left?

And this is from the kind of person who honestly would be happy if we used Physick as many times as we use Broil IV now (replace heal with dps equivalent based on class lol). I genuinely enjoy having to manage healing gcds, mp, party/single target buffs. But the game literally doesn’t cater to any of us anymore. If you like being a healer that focuses on dps you’re out of luck. If you like being a healer that focuses on buffs or supporting the party, you’re out of luck. The best we get is a role that has nothing to heal, next to nothing to dps or support with, and can’t even do things that other roles can’t

---

Eventually they will change how the entire role itself works.
We'll be "Support" and have mostly DPS skills to make up for it.
If they're just gonna make us be DPS with a heal every now and then
then go on and make us a "Support" DPS and will be moved to Range DPS or something lol.
Very obvious they have no idea what to do with healers anymore so just give me more DPS buttons to press
then I guess. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

So this happened in a random pug I joined trying to get more practice with ninja.
https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=474

---

Unrelated, but using the mouse to click Ninjutsu hurt my soul

This thread is a joke. You guys need to learn what we in the scientific field call an “outlier” is. Just because some random tryhard raiders can clear without a healer does not mean the other 90% of the game can. No one cares that you can meme comp while on voice chat, while with a perfect static for funsies and go “LOOK GET GUD healers r not needed.” Healing is the best this expansion it has ever been, simple but very active, broil feels rewarding but you constantly must be thinking so you can weave appropriately and predict. It’s the best of both worlds if you are not an outlier. Even average raiders use healers it’s the omega tryhard outlier ones who wanna cry about not needing a healer. Heads up people if the game was balanced around the 10% or even less tbh then it would be unplayable for the 90%. Stop getting upset that everything is too easy at your level that’s just what happens in games when you get better and better past what’s expected. Aka challenger players complaining about champion being balanced around platinum gold etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

This thread is a joke. You guys need to learn what we in the scientific field call an “outlier” is. Just because some random tryhard raiders can clear without a healer does not mean the other 90% of the game can. No one cares that you can meme comp while on voice chat, while with a perfect static for funsies and go “LOOK GET GUD healers r not needed.” Healing is the best this expansion it has ever been, simple but very active, broil feels rewarding but you constantly must be thinking so you can weave appropriately and predict. It’s the best of both worlds if you are not an outlier. Even average raiders use healers it’s the omega tryhard outlier ones who wanna cry about not needing a healer. Heads up people if the game was balanced around the 10% or even less tbh then it would be unplayable for the 90%. Stop getting upset that everything is too easy at your level that’s just what happens in games when you get better and better past what’s expected. Aka challenger players complaining about champion being balanced around platinum gold etc.

---

as someone already pointed out in this thread, or another thread i dont remember, when WHM was able to tank when doing a specific materia build It was fixed the next patch. im pretty sure 90% of the game wouldn't have had Tanking White Mages don't you think? Meanwhile when titan Egi was actually useful and could replace a Tank that stuff was hotfixed asap. Again, not something 90% of the playerbase would do. So tell me why is it okay that both healers dying in a Prog run is it not a immediate wipe. No SMN or RDM to pick them back up, just a severe lack of Raidwide unavoidable damage that needs to be healed and what little damage there is the tanks can heal themselves.

That's on top of People clearing dungeons, probably the most common and most casual content, after their healer died because tank sustain is too good (unless you're DRK). Please read the thread before replying, you're just making yourself look ignorant for no reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

This thread is a joke. You guys need to learn what we in the scientific field call an “outlier” is. Just because some random tryhard raiders can clear without a healer does not mean the other 90% of the game can. No one cares that you can meme comp while on voice chat, while with a perfect static for funsies and go “LOOK GET GUD healers r not needed.” Healing is the best this expansion it has ever been, simple but very active, broil feels rewarding but you constantly must be thinking so you can weave appropriately and predict. It’s the best of both worlds if you are not an outlier. Even average raiders use healers it’s the omega tryhard outlier ones who wanna cry about not needing a healer. Heads up people if the game was balanced around the 10% or even less tbh then it would be unplayable for the 90%. Stop getting upset that everything is too easy at your level that’s just what happens in games when you get better and better past what’s expected. Aka challenger players complaining about champion being balanced around platinum gold etc.

---

How many "outliers" do you need before it is no longer an "outlier"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

Unrelated, but using the mouse to click Ninjutsu hurt my soul

---

Ye, I be low born dirty clicker.

But yeah honestly I think its fantastic that we have so much versatility now in the game. Im pretty sure that Reaper will be nerfed come 6.1 tho. The class is ridiculously good. I do find it funny that healers are raging in this thread tho because their god complex is shattered. Also I still think Dark is fine, just needs to buff oblation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

as someone already pointed out in this thread, or another thread i dont remember, when WHM was able to tank when doing a specific materia build It was fixed the next patch. im pretty sure 90% of the game wouldn't have had Tanking White Mages don't you think? Meanwhile when titan Egi was actually useful and could replace a Tank that stuff was hotfixed asap. Again, not something 90% of the playerbase would do. So tell me why is it okay that both healers dying in a Prog run is it not a immediate wipe. No SMN or RDM to pick them back up, just a severe lack of Raidwide unavoidable damage that needs to be healed and what little damage there is the tanks can heal themselves.

That's on top of People clearing dungeons, probably the most common and most casual content, after their healer died because tank sustain is too good (unless you're DRK). Please read the thread before replying, you're just making yourself look ignorant for no reason.

---

Your not clearing ex1 or ex2 with the amount of stacking raid dmg and bleeds without some sort extremely geared hyper competent team premade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Ye, I be low born dirty clicker.

But yeah honestly I think its fantastic that we have so much versatility now in the game. Im pretty sure that Reaper will be nerfed come 6.1 tho. The class is ridiculously good. I do find it funny that healers are raging in this thread tho because their god complex is shattered. Also I still think Dark is fine, just needs to buff oblation.

---

It’s just raiders crying they can’t “optimize” healers to do more dps. Meanwhile people who just clear savage/extremes week 2+ and just want to clear/farm them like me are fine with the current state of healers. This is why I can’t stand raiders tbh they ruin games with complexity and optimization.

How is overgearing explaining anything when it's current content..?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

It’s just raiders crying they can’t “optimize” healers to do more dps. Meanwhile people who just clear savage/extremes week 2+ and just want to clear/farm them like me are fine with the current state of healers. This is why I can’t stand raiders tbh they ruin games with complexity and optimization.

---

What? This thread is about how there isn't enough to heal in the current high end content, not that healers want to do more dps lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

So you're saying if i stack 4 dancers and 2 reapers i can cover the role of 1-2 healers? Nevermind it's killing your LB generation for more damage/kills and no bonus stats for even more damage.

---

Honest question.
Do you think the LB limitation and the -2% dmg would equate the extra dmg brought by 2 more DPS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Your not clearing ex1 or ex2 with the amount of stacking raid dmg and bleeds without some sort extremely geared hyper competent team premade.

---

EX1 only has 5 unavoidable raidwide Hits far away from each other. Doing mechanics alone doesn't make you hyper competent nor is being 5 ilvl above minimum ilvl extremely overgeared.
If you actually watched the videos you'd realize that the healerless runs actually fuck up a mechanic every now and then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

It’s just raiders crying they can’t “optimize” healers to do more dps. Meanwhile people who just clear savage/extremes week 2+ and just want to clear/farm them like me are fine with the current state of healers. This is why I can’t stand raiders tbh they ruin games with complexity and optimization.

---

What are you on about?
The fights are already super optimized to the point where everyone in the team gets as much DPS as they can. That's not the issue, the issue is that we have 20 healing related buttons and only use maybe 3~5 of them which doesn't make for a exciting healer gameplay. I don't even run Savage raids but thanks for projecting. You don't need to be a min-maxing raider to see the issues with the design of this Role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

It’s just raiders crying they can’t “optimize” healers to do more dps. Meanwhile people who just clear savage/extremes week 2+ and just want to clear/farm them like me are fine with the current state of healers. This is why I can’t stand raiders tbh they ruin games with complexity and optimization.

---

Ah yes, the mean ol' elitist raiders are responsible for the hardest fights available right now having so little unavoidable damage, and not the fight developers. Totally the raiders fault. :^)

You guys need to realise they are making such "claims" solely to rile you up, and no other reason. I know, "but should we let claim go unchallenged?", but it ain't a claim. Just an excuse to make this thread toxic and make you mad.
Just act like they aren't there, and keep discussing. I assure you, they have been going at it for months, and they aren't the first one. I'm sure you can dig up the "Happy Healer in 5.0" thread to see that this kind of gaslighting/general behaviour has been here since ShB media tour, if not earlier. Engaging with it will only make it continue further and further. I know it's hard, but please don't pay them attention.

To get back on topic, I'm not too surprised. E4S at the time was done without healers as well, just SMN heals were enough. Barely anything happens in the 6.0 trials,so.. Yeah. I really wonder how Asphodelos Savage is gonna be though, based on that. I guess we'll have to see the rebalancing at 6.05 first, but yeah -- Tank healing is probably going to get hit, either nice,or badly.