Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I've seen parties that are literally, mathematically unable to clear normal mode duties because multiple people joined in gear that was literally unviable in that content.

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I kind of feel like doing that should fall under the category of "obstruction of play", as it is genuinely obstructing several other people's gameplay as they can't get further into the MSQ because people are blocking the trials.

So are we placing bets yet on how long till MPK gets a ban under the new ToS?

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Originally Posted by rewd

Me telling the healer to DPS and the healer answering "I only heal" is, on the other hand, a difference in playstyle. And you can't kick someone for it.

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Lord knows I will though.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

So are we placing bets yet on how long till MPK gets a ban under the new ToS?

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Thinking about it, I kind of wonder what exactly constitutes a MPK... Because one scenario that would definitely be possible to happen is having someone lower level end up running into an AoE of a max level mob and getting one-shotted... Or if you had mobs that happen to use AoE spawning near gathering nodes, could fighting in such a situation risk getting hit by a report...

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel slightly concerned about how they determine what's considered "obstructing gameplay" because I've already encountered instances of people intentionally letting themselves be killed by hunt marks to get others punished for "griefing".

Plus there was that whole fiasco with someone on AetherDC purposefully despawning the SS rank minions to anger people but the GMs somehow couldn't tell that a level 4 BLU repeatedly self-destructing on level 80 enemies wasn't a deliberate act of griefing.

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No doubt needs to address amongest other matters involving Hunts.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Lord knows I will though.

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and that person will happily report you for and you will get rightfully banned :D

Not a surprise for me, and it's clearly open to all sort of abuse but i will wait and see how it really work out in the end.
But if everything that is written is enforced, you can be sure that i would never ever help anyone else doing casual content in PF again.

Do people really get banned from providing advice/asking properly or is all the "Oh No, Now I'm Gonna Be Banned if I Do This or That" are just mostly imagined hypothetical scenarios?

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Do people really get banned from providing advice/asking properly or is all the "Oh No, Now I'm Gonna Be Banned if I Do This or That" are just mostly imagined hypothetical scenarios?

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They've been banned for doing it in the wrong fashion (such as the examples listed) but it still doesn't happen nearly as often as some want you to think.

Most of what's going on here is overreaction. Outside of the changes related to use of PF and selling clears/loot, there's really not anything new there. Harassment, purchase of houses for resell, monster player kills, griefing tactics, etc. were prohibited all along. They've made the policy examples more specific for clarity's sake because there was way too much "It's not specifically stated in the TOS so I can do what I want" going on.

People who were inclined to report stuff will continue to do it. People who were inclined to shrug stuff off will continue to shrug it off. People who delight in creating trouble and drama will continue to do it and hope that targeted players will be in the latter category instead of the former, or may choose to nitpick as the former to cause the drama and trouble.

One thing I hope that players are catching onto is the repeated use of "action may be taken against a player even if a report has not been filed". Basically it's a warning that if you make a report against another player, your own actions and behavior may come under scrutiny during the investigation. If you're found to have engaged in prohibited activity yourself, you may be the one having action taken against your account.

In other words, don't file reports just for the sake of trying to get others in trouble because that trouble may end up in your lap. Report because the other player's actions have gone beyond what is reasonable.

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Originally Posted by MPK

1. Expressions that compel a playing style
If someone hops into a PF and plays as pure healer and you call them out on it, you can now get banned for it. This is insane, I don't want a pure healer in my party. It's not even possible to clear with a pure healer on week 1.

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I doubt pure healers are even pugging week 1. They're either in trusts at that point, or they're pugging via the duty finder. This is effectively a strawman because the scenario you're complaining about doesn't even exist. We all know that this is most likely about compelling wall to wall pulling.

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Originally Posted by MPK

2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
What? Now I can't kick players that join a part 3 prog party if they're still stuck on part 1? What if the person accidentally joined a part 3 party and thought it was fresh prog? Am I going to get banned for asking them if they know how to do part 2?

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In what way is that an example of "unilaterally excluding someone from the game?" The fact that they just need to progress some bosses before they can join your party indicates that they're not unilaterally excluded. "No lalas or bards" is the kind of crap they're talking about. Once again, you've twisted their words to create a strawman.

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Originally Posted by MPK

3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
More specifically `"It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped"`. I guess it's now illegal to point out what caused a wipe the previous pull in a prog party. Have fun progressing on mechanics like light rampant where it's extremely difficult to find out why there was a wipe without another person's pov.

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The key words here are "excessive," "negation," and "ridicule." Pointing out what caused a wipe is criticism, but it isn't excessive. Just don't be a jerk, and you'll be fine. You're claiming that all criticism is banned, but that's not what they said at all. Don't mock people, and be constructive with your criticism.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Hey man I'm just posting what the support guy told me. Do with that what you will.

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You're posting what the support guy told you prior to yesterday, when they updated the ToS. That's why he's telling you to read the new ToS. Note the "we will see where this goes," in the support rep's reply. Now we've seen where it went. Keep skirting the edges of propriety at your own peril.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I kind of feel like doing that should fall under the category of "obstruction of play", as it is genuinely obstructing several other people's gameplay as they can't get further into the MSQ because people are blocking the trials.

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I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

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You can queue with ilevel appropiate gear, and then switch it when the queue pops and get into the instance with your lower than minimum ilevel gear.

The opposite of that is what people that force Crystal Tower raids do, they remove gear pieces to reduce their ilevel forcing Alliance Roulette to be Crystal Tower, and then reequip them when the queue pops.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

In what way is that an example of "unilaterally excluding someone from the game?" The fact that they just need to progress some bosses before they can join your party indicates that they're not unilaterally excluded. "No lalas or bards" is the kind of crap they're talking about. Once again, you've twisted their words to create a strawman.


The key words here are "excessive," "negation," and "ridicule." Pointing out what caused a wipe is criticism, but it isn't excessive. Just don't be a jerk, and you'll be fine. You're claiming that all criticism is banned, but that's not what they said at all. Don't mock people, and be constructive with your criticism.

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I just wanna focus on these two fronts specifically. I won't touch the first one cuz you're... most likely right. Though, there's kinda a problem if I'm actually agreeing with MPK.

The second point however, I do need to bring something up. The game fully does allow me the right and ability in my PF to deny a job. Such as BRD. You're mostly right on the statement, someone joining into my phase 3 party without even finishing phase 1 and causing trouble for everyone because of it is its own stated ToS breaking, so that will still be perfectly fine. However, denying a class isn't, unless Square wishes to take that ability away from me personally in the PF. It's my party, I can decide what classes I want, and you are free of your opinion to not like it and not join, no?

And the last point, the examples literally have an example of pointing out the wipe. And I feel like that's a problem. If I say "Hey [player] you're an idiot kys you can't do this mechanic" you are 100% right don't ever do that. But if I end up having to eventually say "We're at 7 wipes because [Player] won't do orbs" in my emerald EX farm party, I don't think that should be bannable. I'm pointing out why we're stuck on the first mechanic in a farm party, because there's clearly being an outlier that needs to be addressed lest we got for an 8th instant wipe.

That's on top of the fact some players just... I really don't want it to come off as an insult, don't sue me, but... slow. Some don't realize the deaths are because they are the one doing the mechanic incorrectly. And sometimes, that does mean you need to pull them to the side and give them extra assistance, even if it might seem "excessive" because, sometimes, players need that to hammer it in. I remember an AST in Ruby EX who just couldn't understand for a while they were doing the first mechanic wrong (the bait then moving aoe's). It took multiple explanations, some attempts not even asking first if he wanted it or needed a reminder first. Eventually he started getting it on where he was going wrong, and I think by the 6th pull, he managed to do it without dying, and from there he was pretty good at it. But by the rulings, if he decided instead to file a report, I would have received punishment, because I gave him advice, sometimes without his consent, multiple times.

And that's a concern. Because I feel knowing my assistance for that absolutely wonderful AST could have easily resulted in a ban, and having no idea who the other person on the other side of the screen is and how report happy they might be, if I was thrown into this same scenario now I wouldn't feel safe giving squat for information, for fear of them taking it as a personal attack, even if they asked for it (Some have. Can't risk that.)

edit: I'm also going to at least not pretend these are new. I love that there are examples now. I'm just concerned, knowing this whole time I could have been gone, permanently, if I simply just tried to help the wrong person.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

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Also I just feel like pointing this out. You can queue in with broken gear. You can queue into (60 or lower) very easily with craft/gather statted gear. I've even seen wonderful stories of people in expert roulette managing in with level 60 weapons, which would put their output at a huge disadvantaged, but the game said they had the ilvl.

TOS is calling me but don’t know what
TOS is talking but don’t know who
TOS is calling me more is more
NOONE STOPS LIMAS BEATS!!!!


You never see me run
and I WON'T SURRENDER!

TOS can't stop the BEAT.

Fair point. Personally, if you want to be on the safe side.. just don't say anything at all.

Will you feel lonely? At times yes you will. But you'll be on the safe side; that said, this sensitive approach isn't going to make things better. You should be allowed to speak out on issues when someones is blatantly lazy when they play. All of us have this concept called time and some things don't have to be painfully slow. Be a contributor, not a burden. Is my take on it.

Perhaps you are allowed to say something but the ToS are so vague it's better to not say anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

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Talking about the Normal/Hard difficulty trials, that you have to do as a part of the MSQ.
Saying that if someone is preventing people from progressing through the MSQ by failing them constantly, across several groups, because they just don't have the requirements to actually do the duty. That should count as Obstruction of Play as it is actually preventing people from playing the game.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

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Except this rule has existed for a very long time in the form of a text "Unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act" - They've merely clarified what in these cases would constitute as unjustified. Furthermore, this does not preclude the validity of kicking someone for a difference in playstyle, which has on several occasions been stated as OK.

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Originally Posted by Roda

The problem is, if something like that is going wrong, you don't really have the time to type it out as you're reacting to the chaos.

"tank can you please turn on tank stance so I don't get autoed" gets you autoed to death before they finish reading it.
"please stack with me we need to share the damage to survive" and the castbar finishes as you hit enter.

usually there's time for "TANK STANCE!" or "STACK!" and no one should be offended by basic mechanic callouts

Saying "I don't need need to save tank lb3 for Alexander/omega/ultima/SoS" isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong. This game has binary conditions for a LOT of its mechanics and clear conditions, and we don't need to give the false illusion that there's other options for these things.

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If you honestly think that saying "Stack!", or "Tank Stance" is sufficient enough as to get you a genuine warning from the result of a report then I really don't know what to tell you other than don't overexaggerate, there's limits to this and that was breached. Their entire example goes on to say how something should be done, whilst then subsequently dismissing the opinion, and imposing a playstyle. I feel like the only thing you've taken from that example is "Duty" and "action/ability", whilst ignoring the rest of the context.

I'm pretty sure something would kick in when someone submits a report, and the only pretext is "Stack" - Reasonably anyone would infer that to be - "Oh they were in the middle of a pull so the need for being brief was essential". That's up to the integrity of the GM whether that would warrant a sanction or not.

I feel like people are immediately drawn to the illusion that a report, will always result in a ban or sanction...

In fact, if you look at some of the archives for the very page, you'll find many of these rules were already in effect, with the only difference being additions to clarity so folk know what constitutes as a violation of said rule/clause.

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Originally Posted by MPK

No offense but people who don't raid shouldn't have an opinion on this. They don't understand the hardships in pugging and progging in a pug.

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If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't need to pug. You'd be in a static.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be getting angry at one player's mistakes because the rest of you can manage to recover.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be worried about being banned over your own behaviour.

Based on this, maybe the problem really is you?

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't need to pug. You'd be in a static.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be getting angry at one player's mistakes because the rest of you can manage to recover.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be worried about being banned over your own behaviour.

Based on this, maybe the problem really is you?

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It's so much nonsense in so little words.

1. You can have a static and doing pug on the side the rest of the week
2. Some mecanics instantly kills the whole party if done wrong, and you can't do anything about it no matter how good you are, it's a group thing if one is terrible it can affect the whole party.
3. It doesn't even make any sense.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Square's new ToS is going to absolutely kill pugging next tier. Let's take a look at some of their prohibited behaviors and provide examples on how this is going to kill pugging.

1. Expressions that compel a playing style
If someone hops into a PF and plays as pure healer and you call them out on it, you can now get banned for it. This is insane, I don't want a pure healer in my party. It's not even possible to clear with a pure healer on week 1.


2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
What? Now I can't kick players that join a part 3 prog party if they're still stuck on part 1? What if the person accidentally joined a part 3 party and thought it was fresh prog? Am I going to get banned for asking them if they know how to do part 2?

3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
More specifically `"It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped"`. I guess it's now illegal to point out what caused a wipe the previous pull in a prog party. Have fun progressing on mechanics like light rampant where it's extremely difficult to find out why there was a wipe without another person's pov.

Link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

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There's a way to say all that without coming across as an asshat too.

The sky is not, in fact, falling.

It's fine; calm down.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Square's new ToS is going to absolutely kill pugging next tier. Let's take a look at some of their prohibited behaviors and provide examples on how this is going to kill pugging.

1. Expressions that compel a playing style
If someone hops into a PF and plays as pure healer and you call them out on it, you can now get banned for it. This is insane, I don't want a pure healer in my party. It's not even possible to clear with a pure healer on week 1.


2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
What? Now I can't kick players that join a part 3 prog party if they're still stuck on part 1? What if the person accidentally joined a part 3 party and thought it was fresh prog? Am I going to get banned for asking them if they know how to do part 2?

3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
More specifically `"It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped"`. I guess it's now illegal to point out what caused a wipe the previous pull in a prog party. Have fun progressing on mechanics like light rampant where it's extremely difficult to find out why there was a wipe without another person's pov.

Link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

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1. I've been playing since 2014. Not once have I, or have I felt the need to call someone out on their playstyle. Not one time. The only time I have ever tried to help someone with their playstyle is when they have specifically asked for it.

2. That would be gatekeeping as far as I understand it. No matter what it is, player dictated exclusion is unacceptable. Period.

3. It's a team game. You succeed and fail as a team. You can point out what caused a wipe. Just not who. Which is fine. It's the mechanic that needs to be explained and understood. You don't do that by pointing a player and telling them they screwed up.

As usual, players will try to spin the ToS like it is so unfair, when players are really just angry that they can't be arseholes.

Things were better when the Internet world was a dead man's land.

Well just do it like the players from the JP datacenters.

If you learn a new trial that is declared as such in the partyfinder so people obviously shouldn't be that concerned about wipes etc. since you just learn the mechanics together.

If you go for a clear, try it a couple times if it doesn't work DISBAND and search a new group.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

It's so much nonsense in so little words.

1. You can have a static and doing pug on the side the rest of the week
2. Some mecanics instantly kills the whole party if done wrong, and you can't do anything about it no matter how good you are, it's a group thing if one is terrible it can affect the whole party.
3. It doesn't even make any sense.

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I can see why you're worried now too.

Wow, you're all outing yourselves in this thread for such a casual game.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I can see why you're worried now too.

Wow, you're all outing yourselves in this thread for such a casual game.

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I'm not i dont say anything in this game, but nice try.
Let me try this internet warrior technique too on you.
I can see why you do feel the urge to undermine good players in this game, even a casual game is too much for you to handle.
Casual player hating on raiders, truly something no one has ever seen before so original.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

If you're worried about rules changing so you have to speak to people politely, it really says more about you.

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Isnt this statement against the ToS?

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Isnt this statement against the ToS?

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You'll find a lot of these "good" people trying to hold others to a high standard of behavior frequently don't abide by their own standards.

FFXIV twitter has taught me that there's an alarming correlation between moral grandstanding and having a record of being sent to GM jail.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

I'm not i dont say anything in this game, but nice try.
Let me try this internet warrior technique too on you.
I can see why you do feel the urge to undermine good players in this game, even a casual game is too much for you to handle.
Casual player hating on raiders, truly something no one has ever seen before so original.

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You use Cactpot. GG.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Seriously, read the ToS.

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Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay.

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A tank being petty and not doing the job they queued up for and intentionally letting people die is not "difference in playstyle" and it has its own section in the ToS.

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technically youre misunderstanding the context.
if a DPS or healer does nothing wrong, and the tanks is doing this to intentionally annoy a person, not because they are in a disagreement, then its greifing. if the other persons playstyle is the cause of the intentional enmity manipulation, then its considered "defensive actions" taken by the tank (not to everyone else obviously) which is why it becomes a grey area.

you can argue it doesnt matter, but regardless, its why the GM sees it as such. So if the case is dropped in the lap of said GM or like minded GMs, thats the end result.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Me telling the healer to DPS and the healer answering "I only heal" is, on the other hand, a difference in playstyle. And you can't kick someone for it.

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Ironically, THIS is much closer to the idea of a tank queuing up just to harass people. as its intentionally taking the action, knowing ppl arent ok with it, before any interaction occurs which leads to the disagreement. Which of course, the context here, is that knowing someone would be mad with it, is the equivalent of "hoping" people wont be mad with it. and its not the same as intentionally wanting them to be mad. which is the only reason its not against the ToS.

(I expect my words to be taken out of context, or straight up strawmanned, but ill ignore such comments)

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

The sky is not, in fact, falling.

It's fine; calm down.

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I was going to write "exactly" and agree that the rules should be fine as long as you're not being rude to others... and for the most part it probably will be fine. But I have to admit there are some rather questionable rules there.

For example, it's prohibited to leave right after entering a duty or intentionally disconnect. That one is hard to police if you got a really unfortunate DC timing. Nor would I want to be held hostage in an instance if someone joined straight after I did who I knew for a fact refuses to do mechanics, or had blacklisted.

It's also clear you may suggest advice to a player, but unclear what you can do if they flat out refuse to listen, such as refusing to do a key mechanic. Are you allowed to kick them? How long do you have to wait before you're allowed to leave?

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Things were better when the Internet world was a dead man's land.

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This tbh. So many memorable events in MMO's history when they were not twitter level of political correctness gentrified.

Like owo's Angwe, or Blood Plague or funeral pvp fest; or AlwaysJourney's Fansy the bard; or Harry the Last Shard.

What will people remember from MMO's from this era in a couple of years? That one time everyone stopped talking for fear of offending someone's feelings and getting banned?

I don't know about everyone else, but I fully intend to keep PUGging as I can see no reason to stop.

There is a difference between someone who leaves a duty and takes the penalty and someone who DCs for various reasons tha SE could interpret as an exploit or hindering others. gameplay.

There should be no repercussions in the first case- the system is already in place to penalize you.

What is new is that the TOS now states is that those people who DC to get around various penalties - it could be the penalty for leaving a duty, it could be waiting through cutscenes, etc- are considered to be in violation of the TOS are could be penalized. The people who are are in the habit of doing so (i.e. not a one- time or infrequent case) THOSE are the people that should be worried.

100% Agree with this. "What do you mean, I can't be toxic anymore!!!"

Treat people nice, kind, and politely.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

100% Agree with this. "What do you mean, I can't be toxic anymore!!!"

Treat people nice, kind, and politely.

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Nice kind and politely varies with culture. Shit man, it even varies from town to town.

In reality, none of this will happen. Everything will remain as is. You're not going to get banned for any of that. Some people might 'test the waters' with excessive reporting to troll people, but GMs will dismiss them unless you're blatantly being cruel about it. You might get banned if you go "What kind of an idiot only heals? Why cant you play this game right? Are you too dense to press Glare? Waste of our time get out garbage."

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Nice kind and politely varies with culture. Shit man, it even varies from town to town.

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Anecdotally I gave some of the acceptable phrases to couple of my friends who share my nationality and they thought them as condescending and passive aggressive. Also I can say that in EU there are very different interpretations on what is perceived as the polite way to give and receive advice. And of course if someone insults or acts deliberately belligerent, it should be worthy of a report.

I haven't had a warning or ban to my knowledge in 8 years, so most likely nothing will change, but these clarifications do seem to be directed to Japanese and their culture. This coupled with some very disheartening allegations of how Square Enix EU customer support seems to enforce these rules (Sorriow case) makes it ripe for exploitation from all sides. Hopefully it does not happen, but I'd rather not had the option for that occurring in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Ah I was expecting a MPK thread on this.

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You weren't disappointed, it seems lol