Difficulty levels are a huge immersion breaker. IMHO they should be removed from the game entirely. But i know, it is cheaper to recycle content with difficulty levels than create new content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Cheers
Thank you for inviting Asmongold to the media tour!!
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09-30-2021, 05:54 PMLarirawiel
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09-30-2021, 06:10 PMJandorThe fear is probably that they wouldn't be able to just ignore them, that something important would be tied to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauren
I think we're all familiar enough with this game to know that they wouldn't just add a slider that increases enemy HP and damage to some menu somewhere and then call it a day. They won't add it without spending time adding quests, cutscenes and rewards. -
09-30-2021, 06:18 PMShurrikhanLoaded language aside, yes, yes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
The costs required to allow accessibility and longevity for a given piece of content is utterly miniscule compared to its initial development costs.
While that increased efficiency may sour our opinions if we see none of the gains (only the reduced development costs, rather than what they could thereby afford), having multiple difficulty levels allow both for a greater portion of content to be accessible (thus removing the need for the actual gameplay of any genre of content to be gutted) and for content to last, a greater time before it fails to be engaging, both of which extend the portion of the game's lifecycle seemingly filled with relatively fresh, intrinsically rewarding, or relevant content, which in turn aids player morale and improves, on average, how content additions are perceived.
Grüße -
09-30-2021, 06:26 PMCaedemSanguis
Final Casual 14
Raids ? Ultimates ? Hard Dungeons ? playing the game ? No I prefer watching CS, building my house, playing GS mini games or even go afk in Limsa
:p -
09-30-2021, 06:42 PMDBriggs304I can help the doll point to where that type of content is...Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW
It. Ain't. Here.
Enjoy! -
09-30-2021, 06:57 PMGarnixI can see them adding a minor quest for it indeed, like they do with the Minstrel, but nothing big. And for the rewards, they could simply add dyable dungeon gear, and put a weekly lockout on the loot to ensure content longevity and call it a day. Add an achievement for clearing a few thousands of these dungeons and that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
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09-30-2021, 07:11 PMRicaRuinNo, no and no. This would result in everything being dumbed down even more just to be accessible to everyone, and I don't want that. At the same time, I don't want to exclude people from the game - different difficulties would make it accessible while keeping a challenge for other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
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09-30-2021, 07:13 PMLoonies
As long as the casual content in FF14 is not going to be less i am ok when there will be more difficulty levels from dungeons.
Because in WoW today there is barly anything beside Mythic Raid and M+ and this will break the game and lead to f2p. Dont want to have this here in FF14.
Most important is that the toxicity is not coming so much from the mythic dungeons, but its coming from the addons like dmg meter or other addons been used in mythic dungeons. So please never ever any addons allowed in FF14. -
09-30-2021, 07:37 PMNyarlha
How many time does YoshiP needs to say they won't add more difficult 4-man content?
Does he need to put up a neon billboard with the statement? -
09-30-2021, 08:12 PMSotarisDon't get me wrong, I'd be very much into getting harder dungeons keen to Mythic+. I'm just saying what the general consensus is. Most players don't want higher difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
A minority wants, i.e people here, reddit etc. The bigger subscription base don't care/have interest in it, as much they don't care much for ultimates or harder endgame content period.
You could argue being logged in, doing all those things you tried to insult a certain type of playing is playing the game in their ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis
But also, you just now noticed this game is "casual fantasy xiv"? It been like this since the start. -
09-30-2021, 09:10 PMThoosa
They added unreal trials with unique rewards and always have had extremes with mounts and weapons as rewards - did the community feel pressure to do those?
If not, why would it if they added harder dungeons?
If you’re a casual player do you feel pressure to do Savage and Ex currently? No one needs the additional item level armour from savage to do any of the other content, or the weapon from extreme trials. The only reason to get these things is if you care about min maxing your dps and the sense of achievement for clearing these things.
I guess I don’t understand why people who play casually (and there’s nothing wrong with that at all) would be worried about other content that is designed for people who wish to be challenged and a bit more hardcore? -
09-30-2021, 09:30 PMXaruko_NexumeI am relatively new here. Has he in fact said this? That is very reassuring if so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarlha
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09-30-2021, 09:42 PMSotarisEvery time the question gets brought up in interviews or PLL, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume
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09-30-2021, 09:48 PMLarirawielYes, he said this. And i can understand this decision. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume
Cheers -
09-30-2021, 10:24 PMWoWDon't forget that they like to indulge in illegal RP.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis
Not for long. Not with our savior Asmongold in the picture rofl!Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
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09-30-2021, 10:43 PMDawn_FF14I think the “cost saving” approach in Mythic and M+ dungeons is where WoW went down the slippery slope. It was good for money, but destroyed their progression and reward structure, and hurt the game in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If FF14 wants to add harder dungeons, I’d rather them be the ARR Hard versions, and be optional in MSQ. But then, there are still the decisions to make for reward structure and what to do when next expansion or patch comes. And, the greatest question to answer from your boss, “Is it worth the money spent?” -
09-30-2021, 10:54 PMDBriggs304He won't be in the picture that long (mpk). He's here for content. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW
It. Ain't. Here.
It. Never. Will. Be. Here.
M+ is in WoW
Enjoy! -
09-30-2021, 11:00 PMXaruko_NexumeI hope you are right. At first mythic+ didnt seem to be bad. But it lead to so much toxicity, hostility, gatekeeping, picking only meta classes/specs just awful behavior in WoW which was already bad. I never want to see that in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
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09-30-2021, 11:01 PMKes13ahe's here because thats where the money is. WoW was drying up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
its nice he is enjoying the game, but after trashing it for YEARS, I dont consider him a saviour of anything except his bank account.
he harmed the game more than he has helped it, and yet it still went on without him, and with him bashing it to his cult.
him being invited is more of an insult to the people who have been here and supported the game than a blessing.
he came here for money, they invited him as a PR move... thats all... -
09-30-2021, 11:21 PMNyarlhaOne of the latest interview it was brought up : https://mogtalk.org/2021/05/07/inter...naoki-yoshida/Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume
Quote:
Frosty: Are there any additional types of content or additions to existing content you have considered introducing with Endwalker (or beyond) for players who like challenging raid content? While we currently do have savage and ultimate raids, and occasionally another type of large-scale challenge like BA or DR Savage, I’d be curious to know the stance on bringing new challenging content to the game—perhaps something like savage difficulty dungeons.
Naoki Yoshida: I’d like to refrain from giving away too many specifics at this time, but I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.
In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.
If anything, one possibility might be high-difficulty floor(s) of the Deep Dungeon series… but please stay tuned for future announcements!
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09-30-2021, 11:21 PMSnorky^^this is true this is not WoW 2 it's FF14 let's think about that for a minute 2 , 14 hmmm 2, 14 I think 14 is more than 2 oh and 14 isn't their only multi player. If you want WoW play WoW end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
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09-30-2021, 11:24 PMWoWTough luck, he admitted today that he wished that he had started FF 14 earlier from how much he enjoys it rofl! He's gonna stay for a looooong time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
NA DC is already full from the amount of hardcore raiders he brought and the threads complaining about toxic wow refugees are booming! It's happening and there's no escaping it! -
09-30-2021, 11:29 PMSnorkyI don't believe that for a hot minute, I am almost positive he was hoping New World was going to be THE game 14 was just a pit stop. Glad he's enjoying it but just watch and see. In the whole grand scheme of it all I could care less what he plays as I am not a rabid fan. The more he gets brought up here by so called fans the more I am disliking his influence. I mean he's okay but I don't feel I have to follow him around or do what some of you do with you unabashed worship. Seriously it's not a good look.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW
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09-30-2021, 11:32 PMDBriggs304Which is fine if he stays. Three threads are nothing (especially when the same troll is bumping them...bump away!) It's nice that HE changed his stance towards the game...but THIS game isn't changing from what it wa before and after his arrival. Which doesn't and won't have the aforementioned content.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW
M+ remains in WoW where it belongs.
Enjoy! -
10-01-2021, 12:52 AMRonduwilThey already have incentive to get better at the game. Do you think players actually enjoy decorating the floor while the rest of the group gets to actively participate in a given fight? The fact that so many players are decorating the floor is a sign that the content is already too hard, not that it needs to get harder. This idea that the purpose of a game is to force players to improve their playstyle at the expense of fun is what's driven WoW to where it is today. When you say that the odds of getting the easy mode player decrease, you're ignoring the rest of the picture, which is that the easy mode player that's no longer polluting your precious dungeon has yanked their sub and effectively decreased the amount of resources that FFXIV receives going forward. Extremes and ultimates already fill the role of content that is free of unskilled players. Forcing that level of difficulty on the rest of the content is an insane strategy that's already failed spectacularly in WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
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10-01-2021, 01:03 AMRonduwilBecause we've already seen how it plays out in WoW. The playbook goes like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoosa
- Difficult dungeon levels are added
- Players don't find them fun, and no one runs them
- Gear rewards are removed from the easier dungeons and shifted into the harder dungeons to force players into the harder dungeons through gear incentives
- Players unsub
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10-01-2021, 01:27 AMBaconBits
Ahem.
Difficulty bad.
Seriously though, why are y'all so opposed to optional difficulty choices in 4 man duties, with normal being the standard for dungeons as they are now? Or maybe the occasional optional (Hard) dungeon, that's actually hard and not just a revisited version of a previous dungeon? It's not like everyone that wants challenging 4 man content wants something on the level of Ultimate, just something that requires a little more thought than "spam aoe on trash, slap mini-boss like a red headed stepchild". -
10-01-2021, 01:46 AMWoWAnd here we see the typical "you're trolling" card when you can't respond back. So original.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorky
They're afraid it might contain some rewards that they can't have. I still remember the delicious tears about the glamour from Memoria Misera.Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconBits
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10-01-2021, 01:51 AMLanadraWell, Yoshi P happens to agree.. with those who don't want it. So.. tough luck I suppose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
With the limited resources Yoshi P and team have, these things being made.. means other stuff is dropped for it. I'd love to see both Savage and Ultimate go so other things can be made with those resources, but that isn't happening either. And I rather doubt the crowd that Savage raids and Ultimates cater to would appreciate those two modes being put on hold for Savage dungeons either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauren
This is primarily why I don't want it, because those resources spend making it.. have to come from somewhere. -
10-01-2021, 01:53 AMaveyond-dreams
If they were to add higher difficulty dungeons, I'd rather glamour not be one of the rewards behind them. Weapons and mounts like deep dungeon/savage, sure, but things like dyeable job AFs and gear sets should remain accessible to as many people as possible. Locking the non-weathered versions of the Shb gear sets behind an ex trial was a mistake in my opinion, especially when they did not even release dyeable versions of the weapons that came with those sets.
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10-01-2021, 01:55 AMMorphiana
This is amazing I really hope Asmon asks Yoshi about the difficulty to purchase this game. I love this game and want it to last a long time but making it hard to purchase is a silly barrier to entry!
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10-01-2021, 02:02 AMRinhiyes they do and more importantly, it's a sign that the game did a bang up job NOT to teach players how to play their class at not even an average level if they constantly floor tank to mechanics over and overQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
maybe those players should watch a LP instead of forcing developers of making easy content even easier? -
10-01-2021, 02:09 AMPayadopaYou must hate pretty much all single player games then, too. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
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10-01-2021, 02:10 AMDBriggs304Or maybe the players should continue to enjoy the game and have fun and not approach game content like preparing for the nclex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
That type of gameplay is available many other places and can be experienced there. -
10-01-2021, 02:46 AMAllegorThe difference though is that M+ gear is designed to be comparable to, if not better than high end raiding gear, and has layers of rng because just about anything in that game is now a 'carrot on a stick' system to keep people artificially engaged, whereas XIV dungeons are mostly just for story and glamour - you don't even "have" to do them more than once because just about anything at end level gives tomestones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
No one is really asking for a copy paste of M+, that thing only breeds toxicity and anxiety and I do agree it should stay away, but a simple higher - optional - difficulty mode isn't anything from another world. Really though, leveling dungeons shouldn't feel more challenging than the so called "expert" roulette (yes, I know it's due to gear quality and ilvl scaling, but the point still stands) -
10-01-2021, 03:05 AMRonduwilYour outlook on player mentality is unhealthy. No one enjoys floor tanking. I don't know how a sane person could say that they do with a straight face. As a new player, I'll give you a couple of cases in point of content that is stupidly difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
The first is the first boss of the second raid in the Void Ark series. You go in your first time, and you're immediately pulled into a black hole that you immediately have to start running out of. I don't care how good of a player you are; if this is your first time in the instance, the chance that you die to that mechanic is about 95%. So you're resurrected, and immediately after the resurrection, you're blown off the ship because you have no idea that you're supposed to put your back to an ice wall. Nothing in the game is going to prepare you for that.
The next one is the Bozja raid, Delubrum Reginae. Every boss in there has several gimmicky mechanics that everyone is just about guaranteed to die to on their first run. It took me about three runs of that raid just to get to the point where I could survive through the first four bosses without dying at least once. Between the ladder puzzles, the bombs with the reverse weight mechanics, and the Queen's Will stuff, you have plenty of guarantees that a first-time player will be dying regardless of how well the game has prepared them.
Also, "average" is a relative measure. In general, half the players will always be below average. The best players will always be far above average. Even if the game "trains" players to play at what you now consider to be an average level, the definition of average will simply shift accordingly, and what you now consider to be a good player will then become average while the player you now consider to be average will be considered bad. That's yet another reason that chasing this dream of designing a game to train everyone to be phenomenal player is futile. In the end, you're just left with a game consisting of the very best players while everyone else moves on to greener pastures where players are treated like customers who want to be entertained rather than like employees who are expected to perform and produce.
Finally, I'd like to point out that the ability to 15-man these bosses is what makes those mechanics viable right now. As it is, you get to experience the frustration of floor tanking for your first few runs, but once you get a few under your belt, you experience the amusement of watching others fall prey to the same crap that was killing you just hours prior. So you throw down some reses and/or eke out a win with half the players, and you feel like a hero who came through for your fallen comrades. In contrast, the way M+ works in WoW, losing a player in any given fight is at the very least a wipe, and in the worst case it causes the key to fail and the group to disband. No one is amused. Everyone's pissed, the failing player is blacklisted, and time feels wasted. -
10-01-2021, 03:31 AMCaurcas
Wiping is part of learning my guy. It's builds knowledge of mechanics in the current content and allows you a base to pull from when encountering similar mechanics in the future.
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10-01-2021, 03:42 AMPoporito_PopotoIt will be even more fun to hear the cries of hardcore raiders when it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW
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10-01-2021, 04:08 AMPayadopa
I still need to hear a convincing argument why having options is a bad thing. Just stick to easy and never think about hard content ever again. That is not difficult, people.
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10-01-2021, 04:58 AMShurrikhanYou're conflating two very, very different things, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_FF14
"Savage" difficulty is not, itself, a reward structure. (Look at the original Savage rewards, for instance: a mere title.)
"Extreme" difficulty is not, itself, a reward structure.
"Mythic+" difficulities are not, themselves, a reward structure. They amount to, solely, the ability to (A) finely control mob stats to something that hits the "sweet spot" of challenge for you and your party and (B) a way to add bonus dungeon mechanics, if you want them.
Nothing about allowing players to set their dungeon runs to a finely-set challenge they can enjoy enforces any particular reward structure.
(You know what does prevent dungeons from, say, being unique, though? A flat daily reward that skews efficiency towards the quickest possible means of attaining it, since the actual content (beyond its mere type) done to get that reward is irrelevant. That's a reward structure that badly constrains content creativity and engagement, and you've been lapping it right up.)
Sorry to have to break this to you, but ARR "Hard" dungeons (which, btw, were also in HW) were not any harder than regular dungeons. They were merely "v2" dungeons -- a way of recopying a few assets into an otherwise new dungeon. They constrained available settings to save on some mob assets, ground and wall textures, and the occasional doodad. I liked them well enough, in that it was interesting to revisit old settings after time had passed, but they are absolutely irrelevant to having multiple difficulties.Quote:
ARR Hard versions
Almost no one here has asked otherwise for any mainstay content with a minimum difficulty level exceeding what we already see across those content types. That said, having additional difficult choices does not increase the minimum difficulty of a place (i.e., what would actually go into a standard roulette). The default remains the same; you'd just have more options now.Quote:
and be optional in MSQ
Minisculely increased cost for at least some dozen times the longevity and available engagement? Yes, it would be worth the money spent.Quote:
And, the greatest question to answer from your boss, “Is it worth the money spent?”