A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

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Originally Posted by Roda

Deep dungeon's lack of exploration participation isn't because it's leveling content.

People don't explore it because "what's at the end of this hallway" is ALWAYS answered by "a square room with a handful of mobs."

The only new scenery or encounters are experienced through advancing through the levels, which means it's just a slightly fancier straight hallway.

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Fair...
Also, those timers can get pretty spicy and exploring can be real dangerous in deep dungeons.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

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IMO the biggest deterrents to quality exploration are the over abundance of teleport locations in the overworld that eliminate most needs to actually travel to locations once the story puts you there the first time and the whole instanced duty system. MMO's I'd played in the past lacking these things I would typically find people exploring frequently since people were more prone to have various landmarks and things seen on a map catch their attention when they're actually travelling through the area and not stuck on duty timer with someone screaming "ESPORTS 420 SPEEDRUNZ"

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Originally Posted by Nikki

No thanks. I am casual player and I don't want to get stuck in dugeon trying to complete MSQ
Not all of us live in this game. We got life outside.

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"Casual" does not mean "person who plays at a less than average level of effectiveness."
"harder dungeons" does not mean you'll need to form a prog group to finish the dungeon. No one is asking for extreme+ level dungeons to replace story dungeons.

But when I can post on the forums between gcds and still call the run a speed run, we've got a problem here. I'd personally like it if dungeons could once again take my eyes off my second monitor for the duration.

And honestly, If they manage to have an ex level dungeon somehow, you have trusts. You will never be blocked from a dungeon complete.

But as someone who has been wanting to have something to casually do in the game when I have some surprise free-time, I'd really like it if my low-stakes instanced content had a bit of novelty to keep me awake and actually entice me to do it outside of extrinsic rewards.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Fair...
Also, those timers can get pretty spicy and exploring can be real dangerous in deep dungeons.

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Yeah, and that's the other part of it. Risk can be fun!
But,
when you're doing exploration based content, you kind of want screwups to have less of a punishment to encourage experimentation. (It's a big problem I had with eureka)

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

IMO the biggest deterrents to quality exploration are the over abundance of teleport locations in the overworld that eliminate most needs to actually travel to locations once the story puts you there the first time and the whole instanced duty system. MMO's I'd played in the past lacking these things I would typically find people exploring frequently since people were more prone to have various landmarks and things seen on a map catch their attention when they're actually travelling through the area and not stuck on duty timer with someone screaming "ESPORTS 420 SPEEDRUNZ"

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Honestly, I don't know about that. HW and onward have very few teleports per sq ft of map and how many people have taken the time to explore the tomb of king manfred? Found the hanging dragon in western coerthas? There are some secrets in the overworld, yes, but then what? There's no gameplay with exploration in this game. No secret quests. (or if they are secret, they are VERY well hidden) No environmental interactivity. Nothing. The overworld is just a backdrop for the MSQ, sidequests and fates.

I think SE did the game dirty when they slapped duty timers on eureka and bozja, and had them be instances you queued for. Big openworld content, at least in my eyes, is fun when you can just stumble into it while you're doing something else, or waiting for a queue. Eureka/bozja just will never scratch that itch 'cause they're about fate farming and only about fate farming (and like one siege).

I guess, let me put it this way. I had more of a sense of exploration when I found the magic pot, than I did looking for the magicite that krile told me was ~over there somewhere~ and then it was next to a conspicuously placed wrecked house.

Give me a broken tablet thrown on the ground next to an inconspicuous tree. Make the missing words reappear during a certain phase of the moon with certain weather. Have those words tell me to go to a spot and emote. Have that emote trigger an unmarked fate to spawn. Have the completion of the fate trigger an npc to send me (and all other participants) a mail. Have that mail tell me to meet that npc at a certain time in a certain location and do a emote to them (don't tell the name, give us a visual tell). Have that npc send me on some other random questy stuff, idk write a story, I'm not the critically acclaimed rpg here. Puzzles!

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Originally Posted by Roda

Yeah, and that's the other part of it. Risk can be fun!
But,
when you're doing exploration based content, you kind of want screwups to have less of a punishment to encourage experimentation. (It's a big problem I had with eureka)

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Hahaha especially when Deep Dungeon runs can take so loooong.
That's a very good point.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

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It doesn't really need to be decoupled from levelling or discourage being ran repeatedly, but it doesn't make sense in a dungeon format because the playerbase for dungeons is a combination of people who don't want to do harder content, for whatever reason, and then people doing doing it for the rewards and in both cases, neither of them are really interested in wasted time in a dungeon scenario.

As for content that would reward exploration, the answer is honestly something along the lines of isle of thunder from WoW/any gw 2 map. Think a zone along the lines of say, anemos or pyros. Something with a lot of weird architecture and nooks and crannies. Fill it with random treasure chests that spawn out in the world, and also rare tough monsters that you probably need to get a group together for. Cram it full of jumping puzzles for no reason, disable flight. Put actual good stuff in the chests and off the rare spawns and there you go. People are incentivized to wander around constantly. Still sounds boring to me and just like in Eureka, I'd sit at the home base afk waiting for call outs, but there it is. Content for the wanderers out there.

If they really wanted to get fancy with it, and god help us they shouldn't because the coding that exists for this already aint great, they could have unique mounts with mobility actions that you'd need to use to get into places, kinda like how gw2 does mounts. So like a glider that you have to do a bit of platforming up a mountain to then be able to glide into a neighboring volcano for example. Or another mount that double jumps which allows it access to a few cave systems that are otherwise unreachable. Hell an underwater mount of some kind that is the only way to navigate currents into buried ruins or something. Make the actual act of exploring the central mechanic and not necessarily the combat you engage in.

They could still populate it with fates or whatever too honestly.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

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I don't think it's necessarily a matter of exploration vs. combat or leveling vs. level-cap content.

Heck, I might argue that all content needs just four things:

1. Minimally divergent behaviors among players doing the specific content.

   Such comes from both (A) internal factors such as in dungeon design and its different opportunities and (B) external factors such as player culture and the content's reward system and its adjacencies.
   
   The more ways of play and reasons to play the content differently, the more conflicts you're likely to have in that content. This is not to be confused with having internally consistent behaviors that are distinct from those common to other content types; such is often precisely what can make a piece of content feel particularly novel (a strong factor in enjoyment to many), so long as depth and breadth of attractors aren't thereby too reduced.

2. Relative sustainability of form.

   If something is meant to be centered on exploration, and yet is meant to be played through some dozen, it must still be centered on exploration even on that dozenth time, even if it trades some aspects thereof for others (such as optimization).
   
   For instance, if Haukke Manor's keys were meant to be an element in and of itself, rather than a sliver of extra flavor in an otherwise standard dungeon, they wouldn't likely drop in the same locations each time and, accordingly, the dungeon layout wouldn't be effectively linear outside of its single obligatory Return and they keys likely wouldn't be visible as directly named interactable. In its current design, that "exploratory" element isn't much even in its first run, and nonexistent thereafter. The same, of course, can be said for every side-room in any existing dungeon.

3. An enjoyable and applicable concept.

   This is the most straightforward. If there's nothing to the content's form people want to do, no particular itches it scratches, etc., the content will be useless unless forced (and arguably worse, even, if it is forced).

4. Commensurate rewards.

   Again, this much is obvious, but keep in mind the first criteria. However, it doesn't seem particularly obvious to XIV when we consider how roulettes rewards—and to a lesser extent, content rewards in general—have been handled. System-level changes (especially to the currently flat roulette rewards, which will tend to seemingly favor the shortest possible content available to a roulette since they skew rewards-per-minute in their favor, especially when the queues themselves are shorter) would help a lot, but the content, too, needs to consider the uniqueness and appeal of its rewards and the efficiency by which they are acquired relative to competing contents (especially those that do not have nearly the same, or far less total, intrinsic appeal).

But, we've seen quite a few ideas like this over the years. Sandpark's Frontiers, Shougun's Airships, alternate Exploratory Missions, dungeons with non-linear routes that can't nonetheless just be memorized and thereby optimized, some—frankly, far better—concepts of Rogue-like content, etc., all come to mind. ...I just wish I still had links to some.

If all story content needs to be immediately auto-completed upon entry or else it's "not fair" then why in the everloving hell are these dungeons even dungeons in the first place? Make them solo duties. There's no point in dragging 3 other people along to your glorified story cutscene with zero failure state. It's literally the same thing as queuing for Praetorium. People say that should just be a solo instance, why shouldn't Pagl'than be? If players can never, EVER be expected to put 1% effort into having 1% of the absolute bare minimum level of skill playing the game they've been playing for probably two hundred hours or more by the time they enter a level 80 dungeon, then this is quite literally not multiplayer, co-operative gameplay. You're all just trucking towards the same cutscene. It's the same level of cooperation as getting into someone's Leap of Faith instance. Except Leap of Faith is unironically harder than basically any dungeon in this game.

In my opinion, if we're going to keep getting Matoya's Relict-tier garbage, I would rather them just do away with dungeons as a concept entirely. They've already done away with non-story dungeons, and have been making fewer and fewer over time. I say they go whole hog and delete them outright. The only purpose they serve is glamour, so just put a gachapon in Eulmore and add new glamours to it each patch so people can grind them out without creating an instance and adding strain on the server. They should also go back and give 50000% Echo to the crystal tower raids now that those are story-mandatory. People still wipe to Angra Mainyu. If wiping and learning mechanics is completely and utterly unacceptable for story content, they need to go back and fix that boss ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Boizinho

If all story content needs to be immediately auto-completed upon entry or else it's "not fair" then why in the everloving hell are these dungeons even dungeons in the first place? Make them solo duties. There's no point in dragging 3 other people along to your glorified story cutscene with zero failure state. It's literally the same thing as queuing for Praetorium. People say that should just be a solo instance, why shouldn't Pagl'than be? If players can never, EVER be expected to put 1% effort into having 1% of the absolute bare minimum level of skill playing the game they've been playing for probably two hundred hours or more by the time they enter a level 80 dungeon, then this is quite literally not multiplayer, co-operative gameplay. You're all just trucking towards the same cutscene. It's the same level of cooperation as getting into someone's Leap of Faith instance. Except Leap of Faith is unironically harder than basically any dungeon in this game.

In my opinion, if we're going to keep getting Matoya's Relict-tier garbage, I would rather them just do away with dungeons as a concept entirely. They've already done away with non-story dungeons, and have been making fewer and fewer over time. I say they go whole hog and delete them outright. The only purpose they serve is glamour, so just put a gachapon in Eulmore and add new glamours to it each patch so people can grind them out without creating an instance and adding strain on the server. They should also go back and give 50000% Echo to the crystal tower raids now that those are story-mandatory. People still wipe to Angra Mainyu. If wiping and learning mechanics is completely and utterly unacceptable for story content, they need to go back and fix that boss ASAP.

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This game may it be for you. The whole point of FF is story.
Um I never said anything about difficulty, bit since people seem to be jumping to conclusions no I don't want more difficult dungeons, more interesting ones yes or rather more engaging ones. This conversation thread has been on every MMO forum since MMOs came out. The devs won't pay any attention to it because they know the player base and the majority is casual. I am a filthy casual but I do like a fun dungeon.

Over all problem is the devs don't care. If in 2.x it was 3 dungeons per patch now it's 1. If I got things correctly in 6.x it be 1 each 2 patches.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I guess I must play the game in an alternate universe. Players die left and right in dungeons I run through duty finder. If they did up the difficulty it would only chase away the largest portion of their player base. That would be an absolutely terrible decision.

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You play the same game.its just how terrible this players are.you some times wonder how they even log in.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

This game may it be for you. The whole point of FF is story.

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Gameplay is inseparable from a story told.
Otherwise they would just make another movie.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Keep 1 dungeon ez snooze fest for casuals and give 3 ults an expac and more extremes. I’d say more Memoria Ex style extremes. Not really mount or weap farm style but armor glam gathering style. I don’t wanna really have to collect another added mount to the list of mandatory mounts needed for ultra mount….just more extreme content since it’s mostly pf-able.
So 3 ults, 3 memoria ex style extremes, and cycle unreals faster please.

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Noo I don't want to have to sit through the headache of finding players to do extreme runs, or schedule time to do ultimate progs just to see interesting mechanics And I really don't want to have to sit in a box with a boss thrown at me to be engaged either. Trials and raids in this game are not replacements for dungeon experiences. And throwing decent players into time-consuming content and ONLY time-consuming content is a great way to alienate casual players who play games to not be bored.

I want cool, casual, quick in/quick out scenarios that respect my time, and my abilities as a level-capped player.

Keep 1 dungeon ez snooze fest for casuals and give 3 ults an expac and more extremes. I’d say more Memoria Ex style extremes. Not really mount or weap farm style but armor glam gathering style. I don’t wanna really have to collect another added mount to the list of mandatory mounts needed for ultra mount….just more extreme content since it’s mostly pf-able.
So 3 ults, 3 memoria ex style extremes, and cycle unreals faster please.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

This game may it be for you. The whole point of FF is story.

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That is why the story will not be removed, but have you even played any other ff games?

They all have difficult boss fights as part of the main story.

7 10, 12, 13, 15.......


Like, I love the story of XIV, but we need to stop this "game needs to be brain dead because FF" thing, because 1 it's not true and 2 you are doing yourself and everyone a disservice.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That is why the story will not be removed, but have you even played any other ff games?

They all have difficult boss fights as part of the main story.

7 10, 12, 13, 15.......


Like, I love the story of XIV, but we need to stop this "game needs to be brain dead because FF" thing, because 1 it's not true and 2 you are doing yourself and everyone a disservice.

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Everyone, or just a vocal minority?

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Everyone, or just a vocal minority?

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Vocal minority. It's not like harder versions of most fights don't exist if players are looking to challenge themselves a bit. Extreme is probably considered midcore content, but that doesn't make it any less of a challenge for a lot of people. I see nothing wrong with story mode versions of important boss fights. Considering it has been a thing since ARR, I'm guessing a lot of people feel that way.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

This game may it be for you. The whole point of FF is story.

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If you actually think making all story-mandatory content easier than a toddler's coloring book is a standard for the FF series, I would implore you to play almost any FF game other than XIV. Because you very obviously haven't.

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Originally Posted by Boizinho

If you actually think making all story-mandatory content easier than a toddler's coloring book is a standard for the FF series, I would implore you to play almost any FF game other than XIV. Because you very obviously haven't.

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From the start I feel they should have stuck to the mindset of get good or go home and never did any nerfs to a duty unless something was found to actually be broken or not working as intended. A majority of the duty nerfs we've gotten were literally a result of a vocal minority on this forum not wanting to do mechanics or wanting to be carried while other people do the duty. We would most likely have far less threads now complaining about bad players if they'd done so as these people would have either learned how to do mechanics, left to find a game they can play pushing 1 button, or had their accounts hijacked by RMT via scams offering duty clears. Appeasing these people just hurts the game overall because it encourages more players to be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Everyone, or just a vocal minority?

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No one is asking for story content to be EX or Savage level.

But name ANY RPG where the game doesn't get progressively harder as you go through the story.

We are basically still playing the same difficulty in non-ex and savage content as we were 8 years ago, and easier in some cases.

And yes, it does everyone a disservice if the developers and people at large think you can only complete braindead content. That means they think you have literally 0 skill in a game you have been playing hundred or thousands of hours in.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No one is asking for story content to be EX or Savage level.

But name ANY RPG where the game doesn't get progressively harder as you go through the story.

We are basically still playing the same difficulty in non-ex and savage content as we were 8 years ago, and easier in some cases.

And yes, it does everyone a disservice if the developers and people at large think you can only complete braindead content. That means they think you have literally 0 skill in a game you have been playing hundred or thousands of hours in.

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Yet here we are, with the game more popular than ever.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Yet here we are, with the game more popular than ever.

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Largely due to WoW flying to close to the sun and having essentially rapists on payroll. But yeah we're definitely doing well and it was all because the game was super good in every single way.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Yet here we are, with the game more popular than ever.

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amount of players =/= quality of the game

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

amount of players =/= quality of the game

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Amount of players = $$$ for corporation big into $$$

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Largely due to WoW flying to close to the sun and having essentially rapists on payroll. But yeah we're definitely doing well and it was all because the game was super good in every single way.

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Because there are only two MMos out there.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Amount of players = $$$ for corporation big into $$$




Because there are only two MMos out there.

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Only 2 MMO's out there? That's probably the most delusional and laughable thing said in this entire thread.

Also. amount of players doesn't immediately equate to more money. The logistics of corporate finances maintaining and developing an online live service game would fry your brain if you actually think it's that simplistic. Even more so considering this title has an infinite free trial version that a considerable if not majority of your new players are playing on.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

But name ANY RPG where the game doesn't get progressively harder as you go through the story.

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How about Chrono Trigger?
Skies of Arcadia?
Paladin's Quest?
There are plenty of RPGs where the player's power outprogresses the difficulty. The game doesn't get harder because it can't keep up with you.

Heck, there are also plenty of RPGs made to be broken. So long as you understand the game you'll absolutely trivialize them. We all have our own examples of games we just obliterated as soon as we got our feet under us. Mine are FF8, P3, Strange Journey Redux, and P5.

How about RPGs like Harvest Moon?

There are also games that don't actually have their mechanics evolve, like Dark Cloud and Dragon Quest 1. It's just about your numbers keeping up with the enemies and the game not checking to see if you've ground to be level appropriate like FF14 does. There are RPGs that don't get harder, they just let you wander into areas unprepared.
How about them?

What about games about achieving horizontal progression like Legend of the River King?
Or, heck, frickin Pokemon?
Brock is tough because you don't have many pokemon you could catch to use against him, and unless you're playing Yellow you can't catch anything with a type advantage against his pokemon. But by even midgame you have so many options available to you (and access to much more powerful pokemon than the caterpies, pidgy, and ratatta populating the early areas) that the game not only doesn't get harder... it arguably gets easier.

What about Breath of the Wild?
You can run to the final boss from the very beginning, you can challenge literally any aspect of the game from the moment you start your file. None of them get harder as you progress. None of them scale to you. And through the entirety of the game you only become more capable of tackling them.

Do you have an issue with this example or that?
Do you want to argue with me on any game I've bought up?
Let's not fight.
This post is not trying to sidetrack this thread with big discussions about other games.
I'm just trying to shotgun out enough examples that anyone who reads this post sees there are most definitely good, well made RPGs that do not get harder as you progress.
Heck, some of them are even quite popular in spite of (or potentially because of) their nonexistant difficulty curve.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Only 2 MMO's out there? That's probably the most delusional and laughable thing said in this entire thread.

Also. amount of players doesn't immediately equate to more money. The logistics of corporate finances maintaining and developing an online live service game would fry your brain if you actually think it's that simplistic. Even more so considering this title has an infinite free trial version that a considerable if not majority of your new players are playing on.

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Comprehension fail.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It doesn't really need to be decoupled from levelling or discourage being ran repeatedly, but it doesn't make sense in a dungeon format because [...]

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of exploration vs. combat or leveling vs. level-cap content.

Heck, I might argue that all content needs just four things:
[...]

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Perhaps you're right...
I just feel like if a player is in content for a reward (exp/tomes) that is acquired at the end, players won't NOT dash through it when their prize only exists at the end.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Perhaps you're right...
I just feel like if a player is in content for a reward (exp/tomes) that is acquired at the end, players won't NOT dash through it when their prize only exists at the end.

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There will always be some degree of rush, but there are obviously resource structures that can optimize something which, or be anchored around what, doesn't feel much like a mad dash to that reward. Part of that has to do with denied control and perhaps even more with intrinsic enjoyment.

And (if I'm reading your tone here and elsewhere correctly), yes, it is of course better for a content to stand on its own merits (enjoyment from the play itself) than by virtue of its rewards (extrinsic reasons for enjoyment), but the thing is those two sources aren't at all mutually exclusive. All that particular matters is, again, that first criteria. If the content appeals to some via intrinsic value and to others only via extrinsic reasons and those would each encourage competing behaviors, then you have an issue.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Because there are only two MMos out there.

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Doesn't sound like you have a place in this conversation if you don't know the largest reason ffxiv gained so much popularity in the past 2 months was because of what happened with WoW and the free advertising that came with streamers leaving.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If the content appeals to some via intrinsic value and to others only via extrinsic reasons and those would each encourage competing behaviors, then you have an issue.

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Maybe it has been done successfully elsewhere and I'd be more aware of potential solutions if I were more experienced with this genre, but I'm at a loss for how this issue can be avoided in an MMO.
(Not that the extreme streamline approach that FF14 has is necessarily a good substitute for a solution)

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Doesn't sound like you have a place in this conversation if you don't know the largest reason ffxiv gained so much popularity in the past 2 months was because of what happened with WoW and the free advertising that came with streamers leaving.

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The thing is, the rising popularity of FFXIV started way before that. The game has always been on an upward slope and the last big boom we had before recent events was ShB release. You could say that the more accessible the game got, the more it grew.

Overall, I find it hilarious that people who complain about the difficulty/muh job complexity seem to be washed up softcore players who are not full casual but won't set foot in EX+ content for the challenge.

Guess what :
- Casual don't care about dungeon/job complexity, they are too busy huffing paint.
- Midcore/Hardcore players don't give a sh* about dungeons and stuff like BotD/Enochian upkeep or positionals that are trivials to them (as talked about in a recent Mogtalk with Arthars and Xeno).

And these two categories of players vastly outnumbers the local crying forum goer community.

The last actually (all be it mildly so) "difficult" dungeon we had for end game was the Burn and raid boss was Thunder God, people here complained about it so it got nerfed heavily. (and Cid is STILL a gatekeeper for bad alliance groups) As much as I would love to see harder 4 man content... I doubt the devs will do it given our track record.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Wouldn't it be awesome to have 3 different scenarios for dungeons set on random or even more? I don't think difficulty is the real problem. Making the same encounter on different maps or different reactions by the boss. Trash packs I could care less about. It would be a lot of work for the devs but I think it would be the first of it's kind.

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Not really? At least not if they're the current difficulty of Expert where I could roll my face across my keyboard and still clear. Difficulty is absolutely a factor here. While it shouldn't be hard, it should require more than a pulse. Having three different scenarios might be neat the first time, but it'll just grow stale quickly if it winds up being the same set of trash mobs and bosses that die after a mild breeze.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Doesn't sound like you have a place in this conversation if you don't know the largest reason ffxiv gained so much popularity in the past 2 months was because of what happened with WoW and the free advertising that came with streamers leaving.

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Yet here I am, having to explain these things to you.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

While I do understand the desire for more challenging, lower player count content - regular roulette (despite being called expert roulette) will not be the place it is added. I know people don't like when other MMOs are referenced, but the early heroic dungeons in World of Warcraft's cataclysm expansion tried to bring back more challenging mechanics to its dungeon content and what happened was a tier of content that couldn't be completed by casuals, players sitting in queues for 40 minutes for a one-in-five chance of being able to clear the assigned dungeon.

The developer team has said in the past that they want dungeon content to be easily accessible to all the player base, which is a big part of why it isn't particularly challenging. The average skill level of players is surprisingly low.

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It's okay if they want to leave Dungeons as it is...

But I would really love anything challegning that required just a Light party. If they add a new Deep Dungeon, it would certainly cover that niche for me.

Just leave the forced MSQ dungeons and trial as they are thanks - some people (for many reasons) run these duties only when they have to in order to progress the story and do not do roulettes. Strange as that may be to some there are also many, many people who are not in best of the best gear as they simply have no desire nor interest in running the content that provides that gear. SE have done a great job in not locking out the progression on the story from casuals and providing other content for the non-casuals lets just leave it that way ok?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Same deal with the Qarn puzzle. Like I think it's neat but the reality isn't 4 sprouts staring at the scales intently, trying to solve the puzzle, it's someone checking a wiki for the answer or someone that has already done it and knows the answer. The little mystique these things grant on first encountering them is not worth the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Funny thing about that is that the side area at the beginning gives you the answer.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Funny thing about that is that the side area at the beginning gives you the answer.

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Funny thing about that is getting the answer involves fighting 2 trash packs where botching the puzzle punishes you by making you fight 1 trash pack.
Especially since the extra chests you get either give levelling gear or randomly gives 1 person, like, a hi-potion... it's really not worth it the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Funny thing about that is getting the answer involves fighting 2 trash packs where botching the puzzle punishes you by making you fight 1 trash pack.
Especially since the extra chests you get either give levelling gear or randomly gives 1 person, like, a hi-potion... it's really not worth it the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Didn't they update them to give decent leveling gear now?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Funny thing about that is getting the answer involves fighting 2 trash packs where botching the puzzle punishes you by making you fight 1 trash pack.
Especially since the extra chests you get either give levelling gear or randomly gives 1 person, like, a hi-potion... it's really not worth it the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Yet most groups I get still do the two rooms and the puzzle. I've only had one where the tank refused to do them and pushed the party to just ignore it all. And the rest of us didn't really like doing that. There's something fun about the little mini puzzles with the heads to open the doors.

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Originally Posted by Roda

"Casual" does not mean "person who plays at a less than average level of effectiveness."
"harder dungeons" does not mean you'll need to form a prog group to finish the dungeon. No one is asking for extreme+ level dungeons to replace story dungeons.

But when I can post on the forums between gcds and still call the run a speed run, we've got a problem here. I'd personally like it if dungeons could once again take my eyes off my second monitor for the duration.

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My answer is still the same. No thanks to harder dungeons tied to MSQ.