The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

You can't take a blacksmith into a raid, so is it not a real job?

---

I know you mean well, Darkpaw, and you want to defend Square's vision of BLU. But this might be the dumbest argument I've ever read on the Internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Your personal definition of a class is, access to duties and instances.

---

No, that's the definition of a class to everyone in every MMO ever made. That's how warped this entire BLU design is, that I even have to say that. WTH. Seriously, WTH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

No, that's the definition of a class to everyone in every MMO ever made. That's how warped this entire BLU design is, that I even have to say that. WTH. Seriously, WTH.

---

Really, all you're doing is debating the semantics of it. You might not have played Final Fantasy 11 much back when it first started. Beast Master played the game completely different from the rest of the community, once again applying your logic to it, not a class. I can't claim to have played every MMO like you just did. I can however claim that my overall satisfaction level with the design choices made by the dev team since I came back around 2.0 have for the most part been good. I am eager to see how their experiment ends up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Really, all you're doing is debating the semantics of it. You might not have played Final Fantasy 11 much back when it first started. Beast Master played the game completely different from the rest of the community, once again applying your logic to it, not a class. I can't claim to have played every MMO like you just did. I can however claim that my overall satisfaction level with the design choices made by the dev team since I came back around 2.0 have for the most part been good. I am eager to see how their experiment ends up.

---

I played 11 for several years and really you can't compare the two. 14 is a different beast. Get it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

I played 11 for several years and really you can't compare the two. 14 is a different beast. Get it?

---

The one who originally made the comparison with all MMO's was you. I'm just picking up what you're putting down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

The one who originally made the comparison with all MMO's was you. I'm just picking up what you're putting down.

---

Everyone keeps saying well this worked in 11 so it should work in 14. The two games aren't remotely similar, so this is not a convincing argument.

My point stands about classes in MMOs. Once you start gating content for one class and not others, or start walling off a class from other players for their own "protection," you don't have an MMO anymore. You have a single-player game masquerading as one. Just save this garbage for the single-player FFs. There are way more of those anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

I know you mean well, Darkpaw, and you want to defend Square's vision of BLU. But this might be the dumbest argument I've ever read on the Internet.

---

I must say i appreciate the cherry picked counter argument but my point stands are the disciple of land and hand jobs not real jobs? Do people not main them? By your definition they are nothing more than sode content. Gotta tell you if thats side content im fine with that kind of side content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Everyone keeps saying well this worked in 11 so it should work in 14. The two games aren't remotely similar, so this is not a convincing argument.

My point stands about classes in MMOs. Once you start gating content for one class and not others, or start walling off a class from other players for their own "protection," you don't have an MMO anymore. You have a single-player game masquerading as one. Just save this garbage for the single-player FFs. There are way more of those anyway.

---

I don't get how you don't see the way you contradict yourself.
"11 and 14 are totally different"
"all MMO's are the same"
Also I'm not saying this work for X game so lets try it with 14. I'm saying is The Dev team is trying something new and interesting. Let us hold off on passing judgement until we get the final product.

Also exclusion from [current content] is not equivalent to a single player game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I don't get how you don't see the way you contradict yourself.
"11 and 14 are totally different"
"all MMO's are the same"
Also I'm not saying this work for X game so lets try it with 14. I'm saying is The Dev team is trying something new and interesting. Let us hold off on passing judgement until we get the final product.

Also exclusion from [current content] is not equivalent to a single player game.

---

I guess there's no room for nuance in this discussion. Every MMO has its own idiosyncrasies, and certain designs work better in some MMOs than others. But at the end of the day, a class is a class. Across the board, if a class is specifically locked out of a huge swath of the game's content -- not by player perception, but by the devs themselves -- then it's not a real class. I want BLU as a real class. You don't. That's fine, but stop trying to tell me that I have to try it out before I judge or that the BLU design is a good idea. I don't and it isn't. And I'm going to keep saying that until Square hears it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

I must say i appreciate the cherry picked counter argument but my point stands are the disciple of land and hand jobs not real jobs? Do people not main them? By your definition they are nothing more than sode content. Gotta tell you if thats side content im fine with that kind of side content.

---

You're being willfully ignorant about how crafting works in MMOs. Crafting is pretty much always optional. Just because, in this one specific game, the devs call the crafting professions "jobs," that means that actual combat-oriented jobs don't need to participate in the combat portion of the game? How does that make any sense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

I guess there's no room for nuance in this discussion. Every MMO has its own idiosyncrasies, and certain designs work better in some MMOs than others. But at the end of the day, a class is a class. Across the board, if a class is specifically locked out of a huge swath of the game's content -- not by player perception, but by the devs themselves -- then it's not a real class. I want BLU as a real class. You don't. That's fine, but stop trying to tell me that I have to try it out before I judge or that the BLU design is a good idea. I don't and it isn't. And I'm going to keep saying that until Square hears it.

---

Again, you fall back on semantics and self imposed restrictions. A class is whatever the designers make it to be. Blue Mage is a class that will play the game and experience things in a manner we have have not been accustomed to yet, however being locked out from a "huge swath" of content is still a speculative statement when you don't know what the final product will be and, once again what the definition of "current content" is.

You're right though, telling you to try it out before you judge it is a wasted effort when you're so adamant on your bias. I can understand though, often new and different things are usually met with with resistance. So I can understand why this departure from the norm is causing so much frustration for you. Regardless, your emotions are not a sound reason on making a decision or in this case, casting judgement. It's just being absurd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

You're being willfully ignorant about how crafting works in MMOs. Crafting is pretty much always optional. Just because, in this one specific game, the devs call the crafting professions "jobs," that means that actual combat-oriented jobs don't need to participate in the combat portion of the game? How does that make any sense?

---

No I'm not being willfully ignorant at all. You can try to discredit me all you like but you can't actually counter the point that was made. Deflect all you like but it does not change facts. There are people in this game who are self proclaimed main crafters and gatherers. They use those jobs as their main interaction and enjoyment of this game. Therefore to those people. Crafting and gathering are real jobs. Not side content.

You are correct crafting and gathering is entirely optional, but is it wrong of the dev team to lock them out of their end game content unless they level at the least one combat class and finish up MSQ? If it isn't wrong for the developers to lock crafters and gatherers to lock them out of their end game content by chaining it behind MSQ and combat actions that certain sections of the player base may not find as enjoyable. By that extension if you do not believe it is wrong for the dev team to lock crafters and gatherers out of certain content because they haven't done all of msq or max leveled a combat class. Then it is not wrong to lock blue mage out of certain content to let them grow at their own pace in their own system. Much like crafters and gatherers do.

What is being willfully ignorant is ignoring this very blatant and deliberate comparison because you wish to cherry pick the points people on the opposing view have used to make counter arguments that are solely focused on small pieces of the greater points being made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

No I'm not being willfully ignorant at all. You can try to discredit me all you like but you can't actually counter the point that was made.

---

Implying any of us has to discredit the argument.

No gatherer is locked out of gathering content.

No crafter is locked out of crafting content.

Until this point, no battle class has been locked out of battle content.

We can make the argument that Blue Mage deserves its own category (As will Beast Master, Puppetmaster, and every other job they're too lazy to integrate), but then we're absolutely right in saying it's the same scope of Gold Saucer and Diadem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

There are people in this game who are self proclaimed main crafters and gatherers. They use those jobs as their main interaction and enjoyment of this game. Therefore to those people. Crafting and gathering are real jobs. Not side content.

---

Imagine Square added a crafting job to the game, one that many, many players had been asking for since the game was released. We'll call it NEW.

Square announces NEW. Everyone is thrilled!

Only, it turns out, instead of NEW being like all the other crafting jobs, NEW can't level to max. NEW can only level to 50. Someday it'll be able to level up past that, but we aren't sure when.

NEW can't use leves to level and won't have any quests.

NEW won't be able to post the items they craft on the market boards. They are way too difficult to balance economically, so NEW will only be able to trade the items they craft with friends.

None of the items NEW makes will be allowed to be equipped in PVP or Duty Finder instances. These items can only be equipped while doing open world content.

Finally, NEW can't make any items to be equipped above level 50.

Now go ahead and tell me all those crafter mains out there would throw a party over NEW and embrace it with open arms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Again, you fall back on semantics and self imposed restrictions.

---

I am dying of laughter at the irony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

-snip-

---

While I applaud the attempt at a comparison. You went completely overdramatic to try and force a biased opinion but hey whatever's clever. So, let's go point by point trying to keep up with your rather.. jaded comparison.

Can't level to max can only level to 50. This is a bad argument to base anything on because you make your own counter argument. "We aren't sure when." so going off the rails about something you have no knowledge of is a bit foolhardy especially when you take into account that you are dropping "NEW" at the end of an expansion knowing that expac will change a great many things. Moving on now.

New can't use leves to level and won't have any other quests. I believe you are making the comparison between the BLU's prog being open world rather than dungeon oriented and the no quests thing I'm not sure where you're pulling that from. It'll have job quests we just won't get abilities from it. So what's the problem with giving an alternate progression system compared to the same ole same ole? Oh grind dungeons, grind FATEs, grind deep dungeons. It's rather refreshing. Plus while leves are the most optimal way to level crafters they aren't the only one. I've straight crafted without a leve or a collectible the entire way.

Can't post the items to market boards. So this is the big raid comparison. Okay, going to point out the obvious flaw in this comparison. We're at the end of a raid tier. It would be difficult to balance a traditional blue mage. You want something other than a traditional sucks but that's not what you are getting. To make the raid comparison with the market board aspect of crafters and gatherers are quite frankly ridiculous as it is the only form they have to express and sell their wares. BLU has other ways of being in content just not current savage content.

PVP or Duty finder instances. Please point out a single item that actually has use in PvP at all? Oh right they don't. So, swing and a miss. But lets look at a few facts. PVP is still a minority in this game and is often one of the most hated aspects of this game so I get not dropping a potentially balance shattering job into that nightmare because PVP is bad enough. Instanced dungeons.. oh wait you can do that just not in the duty finder to avoid salt like this. Seems smart to me.

Can't make any items to be equipped above 50. Once again we fall back to initial level cap. To which I refer you back to my counter to your first point. This is a non argument because you have no information about when it gets lifted or how frequently. Railing against this point is like getting upset at people for saying Bigfoot exists, or arguing we are the only sentient race in the universe. You have no clue what you're talking about because I have no clue about being able to make a counter argument about it other than what we were told. "Level cap will be released with subsequent patches."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

I am dying of laughter at the irony.

---

I'm glad you see the humor in the absurdity of your logic.
I'll explain for anyone who hasn't been following our exchanges.

Our Mi'Qote friend here states that a class is only class if and only if they have access to X, Y, and Z content.
Our Dev team on the other hand seems to view a class as a vehicle in which they experience the world in this game.

The first definition has clear defined limits. The second definition is a lot more abstract and provides for greater potential.
Clearly, GreenGram has seen the logic in this which is why he laughs at the irony of his position to criticize Blue Mage for its limits; when its his own limited classification of what roles and classes are in this game that spur such initial frustration in him. This is obvious since he then does not go on to explain anything else in his post.
Therefore this is the conclusion we must come to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

While I applaud the attempt at a comparison

---

You are grasping at straws to debunk this analogy. It's sad.

I understand you're fine with BLU as is. But you don't have to white knight so hard. You're getting what you want already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

You are grasping at straws to debunk this analogy. It's sad.

I understand you're fine with BLU as is. But you don't have to white knight so hard. You're getting what you want already.

---

I’m grasping at straws.. so far your every argument has boiled down to “it’s locked at level 50!!!” And i am the one grasping at straws. Also don’t put words in my mouth.

I did not want this but i can be adult enough to accept this is what is happening and see the valid points on why they have made the choices they have made. All I have tried to “white knight” is giving people some light in this implementation and asked for patience to get experience so people can provide actual reason based and logical feedback rather than kneejerk reactions based on speculation and fear of worse case scenario. Try to open your mind up to the possibility that not all content is made with you personally in mind and see what the system and job offers the commjnity as a whole after you experience it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

I’m grasping at straws.. so far your every argument has boiled down to “it’s locked at level 50!!!” And i am the one grasping at straws. Also don’t put words in my mouth.

I did not want this but i can be adult enough to accept this is what is happening and see the valid points on why they have made the choices they have made. All I have tried to “white knight” is giving people some light in this implementation and asked for patience to get experience so people can provide actual reason based and logical feedback rather than kneejerk reactions based on speculation and fear of worse case scenario. Try to open your mind up to the possibility that not all content is made with you personally in mind and see what the system and job offers the commjnity as a whole after you experience it.

---

If you don't want it either, then why are you spending so much time defending it? Just let us be angry and disappointed. Square needs to hear that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

If you don't want it either, then why are you spending so much time defending it? Just let us be angry and disappointed. Square needs to hear that.

---

Because i believe that logic and reason hold more power than blindly throwing aggression around. Experience speaks volumes. That’s what i am advocating. If a week after blu comes out and you want to relight the forums on fire. Dude be my guest but please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make. Thats it. Thats all im asking. Im not saying let it change your mind but atleast aee what there is to build a case off of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Because i believe that logic and reason hold more power than blindly throwing aggression around. Experience speaks volumes. That’s what i am advocating. If a week after blu comes out and you want to relight the forums on fire. Dude be my guest but please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make. Thats it. Thats all im asking. Im not saying let it change your mind but atleast aee what there is to build a case off of.

---

A week after, if people dislike it and the forums are lit on fire, there will be people who say "Wait until 5.0, clearly the content wasn't made to be complete and they'll make it better when the level cap raises." In recent memory, this happened with WHM: "Wait to try Lilies out! You can't know they suck." People knew they sucked. "Wait till first raids we'll see if they really suck then." They really sucked then. "Wait till the buff patch rolls around." "Wait to actually try Eureka." "Wait till Pagos it will be better."

This is why people generally don't respond well to "Wait and see" arguments. Usually these pre-release worries are accurate to a degree of relevancy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

A week after, if people dislike it and the forums are lit on fire, there will be people who say "Wait until 5.0, clearly the content wasn't made to be complete and they'll make it better when the level cap raises." In recent memory, this happened with WHM: "Wait to try Lilies out! You can't know they suck." People knew they sucked. "Wait till first raids we'll see if they really suck then." They really sucked then. "Wait till the buff patch rolls around." "Wait to actually try Eureka." "Wait till Pagos it will be better."

This is why people generally don't respond well to "Wait and see" arguments. Usually these pre-release worries are accurate to a degree of relevancy.

---

Exactly. People act like there's no way to know in advance how bad something will be until they play it. Look at BFA. So many people in alpha and beta told Blizzard that BFA was a disaster: classes were pruned to the state of utter boredom, Azerite gear wasn't an adequate replacement for Artifacts, Island Expeditions and Warfronts were a snoozefest.

We told them this for months. Meanwhile, others were saying, "No, wait and see. Wait till beta. Wait till release. Wait till 8.1." Well, Blizzard listened to the wait and see crowd and not the people complaining. Guess what? WoW is crashing to Earth in fiery ruins and people are fleeing to FF14 in droves.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to FF14. So no, I will NOT wait and see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Exactly. People act like there's no way to know in advance how bad something will be until they play it. Look at BFA. So many people in alpha and beta told Blizzard that BFA was a disaster: classes were pruned to the state of utter boredom, Azerite gear wasn't an adequate replacement for Artifacts, Island Expeditions and Warfronts were a snoozefest.

We told them this for months. Meanwhile, others were saying, "No, wait and see. Wait till beta. Wait till release. Wait till 8.1." Well, Blizzard listened to the wait and see crowd and not the people complaining. Guess what? WoW is crashing to Earth in fiery ruins and people are fleeing to FF14 in droves.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to FF14. So no, I will NOT wait and see.

---

Key points there in alpha and beta. I am not saying that your points are invalid. They have been made now rather than continuing, experience as the alpha and beta testers in bfa did and come back with experience to back up your concerns. That doesn’t seem too unreasonable, and it likely offers the best chance of success. I will likely be one of the ones supporting your continued argument after you have come back with experience i may even write a forum post of my own based off my own experiences to point out my criticisms of the implementation and the job as a whole.

See what works in the implementation and see what falls flat. Find positives and negatives they may not have seen that support your arguments and points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

See what works in the implementation and see what falls flat. Find positives and negatives they may not have seen that support your arguments and points.

---

Then get told they'll fix it soon, just wait and stop whining. We've seen this cycle a few times in Stormblood alone.

It's great that at the point we can experience it you'll be open to feedback on the concept and implementation, but the point of our posts is there will always be somebody saying "Just wait."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Then get told they'll fix it soon, just wait and stop whining. We've seen this cycle a few times in Stormblood alone.

It's great that at the point we can experience it you'll be open to feedback on the concept and implementation, but the point of our posts is there will always be somebody saying "Just wait."

---

While true and I see your point there and it is valid Dual. There will be a lot less of it and a lot less people pushing back against it. When someone points out after you have experience "Just wait and see." You can validly say. We did wait and see, the time for wait and see is over. This is my feedback after taking the time to experience it, I've thought out my points and I have evidence for my argument and if you can not see that I'm sorry but I will not change my post.

Because at that point you have done the responsible thing. You voiced your initial feedback, you took the time to experience it and got cold hard facts based on experience. Taken the time to write out a post detailing your experience and your opinion on the experience, and are coming back with a well reasoned point of view based on fact and experience and gives you more details to flesh out your initial argument and make it even better. I have not seen a single "bad idea" in these forums on what BLU could be and how it could be done. Now that those are out. Get the experience and flesh out those arguments and points with in game experience and facts. Those who tell you to just wait can easily be drowned out by a unified chorus of well thought out feedback.

Believe me I know how annoying those wait and see posts can be after you have had experience. I play MCH, I love the class, but I'm one of many who are furious about it's treatment in Stormblood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

please give it a shot first and come back with experience and a well thought out point to make.

---

Let's say that, after trying Blue Mage, I find it to be surprisingly fun and engaging. So much that it quickly becomes my new favorite job in FFXIV. I test my skills inside the Masked Carnival and it proves to be a fun and challenging solo encounter.

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback. This is something that players can already simulated. If you happen to have a job that's level 50, switch over to that and see what's available to you. Then realize that Blue Mage has access to even less content. And what it can access, it has to jump through extra hoops to get there. Hoops that no other job has to deal with.

Yet, in your hypothetical you have done what I have advocated. Went and experienced it and can come back and actually back up your claim and join in on the calls to remove it from this limited job system or give us a version of the job that exists outside of the limited job system. I understand completely what I'm asking but what I am suggesting is common sense. Any argument worth it's salt is based in fact and experience, and let's take your other level 50 job comparison.

What are you missing out on from the other "regular" level 50 job as a BLU. Duty finder and PotD. What are you getting to make up for it. The masked carnival. Which we still don't know a whole lot about, So we really are not missing out on much. Premade parties are still a thing.

As for the extra hoops. Here in the NA server we use Party Finder more often then we ever use Duty Finder. They have the stat sheets to back that up. So it's not really extra hoops. Yea, you have to go learn your blue magic, but how many of us have ran a dungeon with a player who has not completed all of their job quests and are missing a key skill. Or don't put something on their hotbar. How much salt has been slung during those moments.

While I understand and sympathize with the idea that people will still want a full implementation of BLU and not have it just exist in the limited system it is now. I have asked and suggested to reinforce those arguments by gathering experience and getting hard facts from the in game experience to utilize to build their cases so they are that much stronger. Like a well reasoned mature adult would when cultivating an argument. You don't just wing a college paper based on the facts you think you know. You do the research and get it done with facts you yourself have found and experienced and studied. The initial reaction has been said. Now go get the facts to bolster those points so many have made. Make them stronger and unify under those calls. There lies the best chance of getting the wish of a fully implemented blu fulfilled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

You don't just wing a college paper based on the facts you think you know. You do the research and get it done with facts you yourself have found and experienced and studied. The initial reaction has been said. Now go get the facts to bolster those points so many have made. Make them stronger and unify under those calls. There lies the best chance of getting the wish of a fully implemented blu fulfilled.

---

You do know that actual scientists run simulations all the time in order to glean data to apply to real events? Experiencing a phenomenon firsthand isn't the only way to learn about it.

BLU isn't quantum chromodynamics, so it's even easier to figure out what we hate about it from running the simulation in our head. I think the point that Blueyes made was a really good one. If we don't like the job as designed, then it's a bad design to us and we want it be different. If we enjoy the job though -- that actually makes the entire situation worse. Because at that point we'd want to bring it to the content that's new, relevant, and most fun. And we just can't. Because of a handful of spells that Square insists have to be part of the BLU experience. So it's a bad design to us and we want it to be different.

I can simulate the outcome either way, and either way I hate the design. I don't need to play the job to reach this conclusion. There are two possible outcomes. Both are awful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

Let's say that, after trying Blue Mage, I find it to be surprisingly fun and engaging. So much that it quickly becomes my new favorite job in FFXIV. I test my skills inside the Masked Carnival and it proves to be a fun and challenging solo encounter.

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback. This is something that players can already simulated. If you happen to have a job that's level 50, switch over to that and see what's available to you. Then realize that Blue Mage has access to even less content. And what it can access, it has to jump through extra hoops to get there. Hoops that no other job has to deal with.

---

This is the point a lot of us have been making and Blueyes has worded well. The only part I might have a problem with is the "jumping through hoops" if they meant having to go learn spells. I don't see there being a problem with some jobs having some barrier to entry.

Oh my comment about needing to jump through hoops was in reference to how Limited Jobs such as Blue Mage must have a preformed party for group content and cannot use the Duty Finder. Those restrictions may not be a big deal for some players, but it doesn't change the fact that other jobs aren't required to adhere to such restrictions.

It really isn't necessary to play as Blue Mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs, though I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand. What I described was a best case scenario. Even if I genuinely enjoy Blue Mage and Masked Carnival, I'm still going to be upset. Why? Because SE has already given us hard facts about what Limited Jobs can and cannot do. And unless SE makes changes to those hard facts at the time of BLU's release, which, mind you, would only happen in direct response to the criticism that's being spoken about right now, their product will be delivered exactly as advertised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

Oh my comment about needing to jump through hoops was in reference to how Limited Jobs such as Blue Mage must have a preformed party for group content and cannot use the Duty Finder. Those restrictions may not be a big deal for some players, but it doesn't change the fact that other jobs aren't required to adhere to such restrictions.

It really isn't necessary to play as Blue Mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs, though I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand. What I described was a best case scenario. Even if I genuinely enjoy Blue Mage and Masked Carnival, I'm still going to be upset. Why? Because SE has already given us hard facts about what Limited Jobs can and cannot do. And unless SE makes changes to those hard facts at the time of BLU's release, which, mind you, would only happen in direct response to the criticism that's being spoken about right now, their product will be delivered exactly as advertised.

---

I agree completely. Your last line though won't happen. Right now IS the best time to tell them how we feel about limited jobs but it's too late for anything to be changed for probably at least a year. The best we can hope for is a statement from Yoshi soon that they will be working on a blue mage that can be used in ALL the content that combat jobs can partake in.

You have told them how you feel. Continuing to do so based on having no experiences but the "simulations you have run in yours head" will achieve little to nothing. So what harm is there in actually going and experiencing it and finding the bits and pieces they haven't told you that will one support your initial arguments, two bolster your initial arguments, and three discredit their idea for this implementation? To me that seems like common sense. You can take the resources they have put into the job, the skills, the way it plays, the animations, the various other aspects of the job and the system itself that they have not and likely will not tell you. Knowledge you can only reliably get first hand, and use that knowledge to drive your point home. Create a forum post, guide your FC mates, your friends, your static members, your server, your data center to your forum post on your ideal implementation, unify the community behind an idea and show the Dev Team that you have the support of the community to give them a reason.

Let's make a few things clear. Without an enforceable boycott of the content upon release until you get what you are asking for which let's face facts is extremely unlikely and nearly impossible to enforce. There's nothing more to be done right now (mainly because it's too late to stop this implementation from coming out), but get facts and back up your concerns with legitimate ideas using knowledge only you can get when you put fingers to keys/controllers.

Two: It is extraordinarily unlikely they will fully abandon this content or system but perhaps the idea floating around of a second "balanced job crystal" could hold some sway if enough voices got behind it. Blueyes stated themselves that "I doubt SE will listen to us beforehand." which is exactly right. There's no reason to listen right now beyond what they have already heard. Because we have no verifiable proof. We have no experience. So while I agree with the sentiment of what Blueyes is saying. the whole "It really isn't necessary to play blue mage to understand what we don't like about Limited Jobs" statement is a half truth. She is correct it's not necessary to play to know how we feel. It is necessary to play in order to turn those feelings into a strong argument and counter to what they are offering. Because that play experience can be used to bolster and further the arguments against the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

There's no reason to listen right now beyond what they have already heard.

---

You keep saying this, and telling us to shut up with our "uninformed" complaints. But it's all we can do right now.

When BLU releases we'll do all that other stuff you want us to do. The whole community will.

Until then, all we can do is loudly repeat: WE HATE THIS. We might be shouting into a vacuum, but if I want to shout into a vacuum, I will. That's how much I dislike this direction for BLU and all future "Limited Jobs." Just typing that name feels icky.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenGarm

You keep saying this, and telling us to shut up with our "uninformed" complaints. But it's all we can do right now.

When BLU releases we'll do all that other stuff you want us to do. The whole community will.

Until then, all we can do is loudly repeat: WE HATE THIS. We might be shouting into a vacuum, but if I want to shout into a vacuum, I will. That's how much I dislike this direction for BLU and all future "Limited Jobs." Just typing that name feels icky.

---

Don't think I ever said shut up or even meant to imply that. Not so much as to try and offer an alternative to beating your chest and "screaming into a vacuum"

Perhaps you are right and the whole community will join you. I may even do the same. Perhaps not. Time will tell, but if you feel the need to continually "scream into the vacuum" then I'll leave you be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkpaw

.

---

It isn't often that I will address someone directly on the forum, but I must admit, I am genuinely curious about what you hope to achieve. And I don't mean to imply that offensively by any means. It's a sincere question that I have.

If the intention is to be a peacekeeper between the two sides of the debate, it doesn't really come off that way, if I'm being honest. Many of your replies to this topic don't seem to carry the same neutral tone expressed in your document. That is just a personal observation that I've made.

You are absolutely right on your point about collecting data. Once we get our hands on Blue Mage, we will have acquired first-hand, detailed experience with SE's first Limited Job. The information that we gain from that experience will be undoubtedly valuable in making a case for or against Blue Mage as a Limited Job. But by saying that it's better to acquire first-hand knowledge before causing a riot, what is being implied? Is it that people's words right now, whether for or against Blue Mage as a Limited job, hold little weight? And if those arguments do hold little weight, does that then imply that debating the matter, at this point in time, is ultimately pointless? If that is the case, then I can't say that I agree with that sentiment. I could be mistaken about your point, but it is what I've discerned.

People are upset and SE should know that. They're probably at least aware that there's been a backlash, or rather, I hope that they're aware. No one can really say whether SE even knows that people are upset until an official statement has been made. Maybe something has been said on the Japanese side of the forum. I wouldn't know, but if that had happened, I'm sure someone would have reported on the news by now.

Approximately one month has passed since the announcement of Blue Mage as a Limited Job. One month, and it's still a hotly debated topic. That goes to show just how passionate people are about the subject. SE needs to know how passionate people are. If everyone quieted down after the first week, would that give SE more or less reason to be concerned? I think they would have felt less worried, but to be frank, they should be worried. SE is attempting something extremely risky. No other job announcement has sparked this much debate. When a new job is announced, that should be one of the most exciting moments for FFXIV players. Instead, many players have been filled with dread.

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

I walk away from these experiences knowing that I fully enjoyed both Blue Mage and Masked Carnival. Does that make me a happy customer? It doesn't, actually. If anything, it could potentially make the issue worse, because now I have a job that I love more than any other that I can't use in a large sum of the game's content.

Put simply, the issue people have isn't with Masked Carnival or even Blue Mage. The issue is with Limited Jobs. It's important to understand what you're asking when you tell people, "please try it first." It's asking people to first see what it's like to be restricted from content, then come back to give feedback.

---

I feel like you're ignoring own thought experiment to simply jump to your main talking point. If you end up liking the job, why is it that you like it? What is it that Blue Mage is doing that makes it your new favorite job? For this class to become your new favorite job it has to be doing something unique and interesting. Would the job still be the same if it was forced to fit into the 3 role Meta? I feel like Blue Mage is the developers attempt at giving players greater freedom to be creative on how we approach a conflict. As it is, the current system is too structured and allows for very little deviation from what works. It seems as though Blue means to fill this void that many players aren't even aware of because they're too busy trying to fit into the mold. But I would also like to talk about the subject of this level 50 cap and the segregation this class faces from current content.

Everything is speculative as we have only been giving the most general of descriptions about this job. However the few nuggets of details we've been told about this job have grown to fill whatever bias the person reading them has come to think. One concrete detail that I feel has had a lot of speculation latched to it is initial statement of level 50 cap as if its the end all be all for this class;they also disregard the comments that follow it which is the class will eventually see its cap increase with 5.0. But lets forget about that announcement pairing announcement pairing and lets think for a second. Does it not seem like an easy way to provide content for this class, is to raise its level and therefore give it access to content that is already there ? Does it not seem sensible that it will gain access to other areas and instances to learn new moves? Does this not seem like an obvious move?

Regardless of this there is also the statement of this classes segregation from current content. As I've said before I think the clear distinction from what is current content is important because this will clearly spell out what this class will be unable to join. To be honest though, if this class truly promotes and prioritizes player creativity, then its segregation from current content will not bother me in the slightest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

You are absolutely right on your point about collecting data. Once we get our hands on Blue Mage, we will have acquired first-hand, detailed experience with SE's first Limited Job. The information that we gain from that experience will be undoubtedly valuable in making a case for or against Blue Mage as a Limited Job. But by saying that it's better to acquire first-hand knowledge before causing a riot, what is being implied? Is it that people's words right now, whether for or against Blue Mage as a Limited job, hold little weight? And if those arguments do hold little weight, does that then imply that debating the matter, at this point in time, is ultimately pointless? If that is the case, then I can't say that I agree with that sentiment. I could be mistaken about your point, but it is what I've discerned.

People are upset and SE should know that. They're probably at least aware that there's been a backlash, or rather, I hope that they're aware. No one can really say whether SE even knows that people are upset until an official statement has been made. Maybe something has been said on the Japanese side of the forum. I wouldn't know, but if that had happened, I'm sure someone would have reported on the news by now.

Approximately one month has passed since the announcement of Blue Mage as a Limited Job. One month, and it's still a hotly debated topic. That goes to show just how passionate people are about the subject. SE needs to know how passionate people are. If everyone quieted down after the first week, would that give SE more or less reason to be concerned? I think they would have felt less worried, but to be frank, they should be worried. SE is attempting something extremely risky. No other job announcement has sparked this much debate. When a new job is announced, that should be one of the most excitement moments for FFXIV players. Instead, many players have been filled with dread.

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

---

I think the point Darkpaw is trying to make is the same I'm trying to and that is to prevent the stifling of our developers creativity and implementation of new ideas. I think we can all agree, if limited job would have been announced with anything other then Blue Mage it wouldn't have caused as huge a reaction it did. The cries against Blue Mage seem to be mostly based off of emotion and knee jerk reaction as opposed to understanding and reasoning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

People need to remain vocal. They should be vocal during the weeks leading up to the release of Blue Mage and the debate will continue for months thereafter. It conveys the gravity of how much people care about or detest Blue Mage and Limited Jobs.

---

And what about those who do like the idea of Blue Mage for sticking to its roots, or Limited Jobs for the posibility of good side content?
Are we allowed to be vocal or does that make us shills?

Many people share a belief that Blue Mage has to be all or nothing. To retain the true identity of Blue Mage, it must be restricted from content or else it would destroy the balance of the game. Anything else would mean an empty shell that is nothing more than a Black Mage with a coat of blue paint. I firmly disagree with the belief that it must be one or the other. Those are the extreme ends of the spectrum. I wish to achieve a middle ground. I want Blue Mage to become a job that is balanced while innovative at the same time. That is what I want and I believe it is possible.

Masked Carnival, learning spells from monsters, a wide variety of spells with varying utility that can be swapped in and out, all of that could have worked alongside a job that was balanced for current content. I'm dead serious when I say that. When Blue Mage is released, I will play it, I will study it, and I will do my best to formulate a solution for how Blue Mage can work as a balanced job while stripping away as little as possible.

So to answer your question directly, to why I would like Blue Mage, I would like that spells need to learned directly from monsters. I would appreciate the wide variety of spells. I would enjoy that its available spells can be swapped around to best suit a given situation. I just don't believe that access to current content had to be compromised in order to have those things.

I want SE to push the boundaries of what Jobs can do. But in this case, I'd say that they pushed too far. It got pushed into its own little corner away from everything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

And what about those who do like the idea of Blue Mage for sticking to its roots, or Limited Jobs for the posibility of good side content?
Are we allowed to be vocal or does that make us shills?

---

Of course you're allowed to be vocal. I didn't state otherwise. My statement was that those who are passionate about this subject should continue to be vocal. That applies to both sides of the debate.