HoH feedback

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

just because they want everything to be done in 15 minutes or less, personally.

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2-3 hours, the time it would still take to do 61-100, is 15 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

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It has me perplexed. If someone suggests something that could save people time, I could see people pointing out why the devs wouldn't do it, but here you have people actually arguing against it, and for no good reason, lol.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

I'd bet those arguing for no changes haven't really done it. Forget being in a party - even solo is a joke up to 60, but Yoshi-P said the challenging floors start at 30, so you must be making stuff up.
Next EX trial: After every wipe, you need to run a dungeon.

If they add the option to start later and you didn't want to use it, you wouldn't have to. This isn't PVP and there isn't a race. Isn't it a bit much to ask tens of thousands of people to spend hours upon hours doing faceroll content just to do the interesting stuff so...actually, I don't even know why anyone is in favor of it.

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Like HyoMin, I have two 100 clears, am working on a third and have wiped at floors 50 (day one, very low aetherpool), floor 76 and 90. So six attempts in content I supposedly "haven't really done."

How is this remotely comparable? The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk. Yes, 21-50 are more or less facerolls, but the time commitment inherently makes floors 81+ risky. As I mentioned earlier, wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Most arguments against convenience just boil down to "it's possible to do without this feature so just put up with how things are now". That same argument (appeal to tradition fallacy) can be used against cross realm groups, the duty finder, the raid finder and even the party finder. "If you can't work something out with friends or shout in cities to get a group for a dungeon and can't find the time to walk to the dungeon entrance, you're not even trying." Sounds pretty silly in another context.

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Dungeons aren't intended to be gauntlets. Heaven on High is. The only fallacy here is you making a disingenuous comparison between two pieces of content with different design philosophies. What you're essentially saying is, "I want an easier, faster, more convenient route." Okay. Let's say they implement this change except you will not receive an Empyream token and/or the Dodo mount unless you begin from floor 21. Would you still support the change or does your convenience also demand the same rewards too?

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

It has me perplexed. If someone suggests something that could save people time, I could see people pointing out why the devs wouldn't do it, but here you have people actually arguing against it, and for no good reason, lol.

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People have cited plenty of good reasons. You simply refuse to listen.

did floor 21-100 in 5-6 hours, in one day. (we did a run on Friday (got a necklace) and a run on Sunday (got an earring) ) i see no real issue with it at all, had a lot of fun doing it to.

Feedback (And I stress, this is just my opinion)

As content, I personally don't really care for it. It's basically a dungeon crawler without any real rewards.
Use the original PSO for example, which was also a dungeon crawler and one of my favorite MMOs of it's time. You'd run through the same 4-8 areas with randomized maps, killing monsters, collecting loot and leveling up. Sure it got boring sometimes but sometimes things were sometimes mixed up a bit because you'd get a rare map or special enemy that pops up every once and a while. And in the end, the thing that kept you going was finding that sweet, sweet, weapon or armor that you've been hunting the same enemy or breaking boxes for. It was the driving force behind your motives.

In HoH, it basically removes the rewards aspect because everything you find (for the most part) can't be used outside of the instance. Sure you can obtain a mount, a new hairstyle and a ilv365 that will most likely be phased out by the Eureka weapons but beyond that, there's not much reason for someone to really NEED to keep doing it in my opinion. And when I say need to, I'm saying come next patch or 4.4 I don't think there will be people saying, "Hey, I need to do HoH to get (insert item.)" It literally feels like it is a placeholder SE put in to keep people occupied until the next bit of content is released.

With that said, I think it will be a good way to level alts though, same with PotD. Leveling alts can be a pain sometimes and although both are extremely tedious and can be mind-numbingly boring, it can be a lot quicker to just jump in a PotD/HoH queue (especially if you're a DPS) and run a few floors for a good chunk of exp.

So long story short, It's a great way to earn chunks of exp but I don't feel like it's content that would be a huge draw-in for new or returning players.

Tbh there's no real need for anything in the game, no rewards from any content is really needed to do anything but ultimate, I would say that the reward structure criticism could be applied to the whole game

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

2-3 hours, the time it would still take to do 61-100, is 15 minutes?


It has me perplexed. If someone suggests something that could save people time, I could see people pointing out why the devs wouldn't do it, but here you have people actually arguing against it, and for no good reason, lol.

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Do you have any decent reason as to why HoH’s challenge floors should only take 2-3 hours? Aside from “because I want it to”?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh there's no real need for anything in the game, no rewards from any content is really needed to do anything but ultimate, I would say that the reward structure criticism could be applied to the whole game

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Very true...which is why I have a love/hate relationship with the game itself. But that's a complaint for a different time.

I mean there are a couple things like the dungeons and savage raids where you have to do them to get certain glamours. I still find myself needing to do older content to grab stuff like that. It's kind of the reason why I appreciate the story dungeons in the game so much. Sure, they get outdated quickly and the weapons and armor are pretty bad stat wise but they get people repeatable content to do as well as rewards tokens for more powerful gear. I ran Skalla over 100+ times to get the tank coat. But I personally like that feeling of finally getting the rare drop you've been looking for.

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Originally Posted by Niraye

did floor 21-100 in 5-6 hours, in one day. (we did a run on Friday (got a necklace) and a run on Sunday (got an earring) ) i see no real issue with it at all, had a lot of fun doing it to.

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I haven't gotten to floor 100 yet, because I haven't had 5-6 hours of spare time and the idea of a slapdash party finder group meeting up more than one day seems unlikely and unfun to set up.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk.

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The purpose of the reset, as well as the stinginess with shards, and no KOs in order to do 31+, is to pad content. You have to grind 21-30 over and over if you want potions for solo runs. You've seen what garbage you can get even from higher tiered sacks.

Allowing people to start from 21 eliminates even more risk. I guess that should be removed. Two RDM, a PLD and a healer takes away from the challenge, so let's also not allow certain party comps. While we're on the topic of having people waste time for no reason, let's bring back DoL favors and permadeath in EX trials.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

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Does Xande gain a buff if you wipe? Do you get debuffed if you wipe? 90 mins wasted is a 'mild annoyance'? If 90 minutes is an annoyance, what about a few hours? You admit right there that's all it does - inconvenience you. It doesn't make the boss hit harder or gain mechanics, it doesn't increase the number of patrols or add floor debuffs. It just wastes your time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Do you have any decent reason as to why HoH’s challenge floors should only take 2-3 hours? Aside from “because I want it to”?

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The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I haven't gotten to floor 100 yet, because I haven't had 5-6 hours of spare time and the idea of a slapdash party finder group meeting up more than one day seems unlikely and unfun to set up.

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With all of two save slots.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

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Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy. Especially since Accursed Hoard/Intuition pomanders can be found on the way to the exit (thereby cutting down on the time searching for them; they aren’t guaranteed to be off in Narnia from the exit all the time), and appraisal doesn’t have to take place until after you have already finished the entire run (so it doesn’t extend the duration of your run; you don’t have to appraise between every set of floors). It basically boils down to “I don’t want to do it, so it should not be a thing”. If all game development choices were up to a player’s preference of “I don’t wanna do it”, we’d have a mess of a game.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

let's bring back permadeath in EX trials.

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Yep, I agree with this. Permadeath should be a thing in Ex trials and raids. So yeah, let's do this, and let's also keep the floor 21 start.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Does Xande gain a buff if you wipe? Do you get debuffed if you wipe? 90 mins wasted is a 'mild annoyance'? If 90 minutes is an annoyance, what about a few hours? You admit right there that's all it does - inconvenience you. It doesn't make the boss hit harder or gain mechanics, it doesn't increase the number of patrols or add floor debuffs. It just wastes your time.

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That's the whole point of a gauntlet; it takes a long time. If you reduce the time commitment by too much, it defeats the entire purpose of such a system. On the subject of more difficult floors. I'd love if the spike occurred at floor 61+ or thereabouts, but then we'd have another thread of people whining it's too hard.

31+ are the challange tiers. You either pug it and run it in one go (or try to), or you get people you can run it in parts over a few days.

Thats the way its designed. I personally dont want it to have it broken into 3-4 tiers. That to me just makes it easier to do, not harder, simply by making it "Oh hey, if we make it to 81, I no longer have to do 31-80 and can just restart at 80 over and over.

Thats stupid and less interesting to me cause it drops the stakes at higher floors cause I know Ill have a 'safety' net. IMO, just leave it as it is. I like it that way. If they add another 100 floors after lvl 100, sure, then create a new tier at that point. But until then, leave it be.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh there's no real need for anything in the game, no rewards from any content is really needed to do anything but ultimate, I would say that the reward structure criticism could be applied to the whole game

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this
and this give lack of motivation to invest time into anything, i farmed almost everything in 3.x and in SB we got a reskinned 3.x
another mount or minion or glamour, i took 3 months break, came back in 4.3 but feels like i need break again

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

Sure, I have one for you. THAT'S NOT HOW THE CONTENT WAS DESIGNED, suck it up and either set the time aside or don't do it at all. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Stop sitting here begging for something that is already trivial, to be made even more trivial because .. "you don't wanna"

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Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh there's no real need for anything in the game, no rewards from any content is really needed to do anything but ultimate, I would say that the reward structure criticism could be applied to the whole game

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Wait.... weren't you criticizing my prior forum history posts pointing out his very fact.....

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

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Most people value their time, which is why they learn how to adequately manage it by (in this case) breaking down that five or six hour marathon into a few sprints of anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes spread out over a few days.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

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If you cant dedicte time to it, thats your problem, not the games. The game has difficulty built in a few different ways. The 'Gauntlet' means you gotta not only dedicate time to it, but also while playing it understand more is riding on you to do it right. If you can start at lvl 81 anytime you want after you hit 80, then you can be more risky and less observant in what youre doing. You have the safety net. But if wiping means you gotta start back at 21, that means you gotta be more meaningful and use better judgement to succeed. Cause you dont want ot redo all of that.

Furthemore, if time is such a huge deal to you, get some friends and do a few hours at a time then take a break. There is no rule that says you have to run 21-100 all in one sitting. Thats on you. Again, if you cant dedicate the time, then thats on you, not the game.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Wait.... weren't you criticizing my prior forum history posts pointing out his very fact.....

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No I was criticizing this thread, I agree with the need of long term goal, which is what I'm saiying often this times

All it takes is one guy skipping out on you and it's back to the start for you.

This is a thing that happens very, VERY often.

Getting the same people back together the next day is nigh-impossible.

So good luck with that, i can't even get past 50 without someone leaving, and that's the end of that, start over.

Managing the party is harder than the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

You said it well this game has far more casual content than hardcore one, we don't need to cry out for any non casual content added to the game.
As I have shown you have the tools to do it, use them

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And how is it great for the hardcore crowd if they still have to go through all the easy useless floors? 50/50 and with the option to start at 51, they would get faster to the real hardcore floors, while the rest of us also has more floors and maybe even a larger story..in the end the hardcore crowd got Ultimate, will get Omega the next patch and they can still run this the ultra hardcore way by doing it solo (if you dont have DCs like me..) or with only another player.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

There are no alternatives. Why should there be? This IS casual content!! Just because you (or your friend) don't want to set the time aside doesn't suddenly change that. You don't even need to do it all in one go I mean jeebus.

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So why take over 100 floors away? I mean all those that complained that it was too much to reach the hardcore floors should have then just set enough time to clear it? Casual players lost 70% of the normal floors, while the hardcore crowd only lost 30%...if this is casual content like you said why take away the floors for the casual crowd? Why not just give people the ability to start higher up? Instead of having people to start at 51 in PotD, they simply could have given access to 101 for matched parties. This way hardcores could be faster towards their floors and the rest had their floors to run. The same with this one. The only hard part starts higher up, so why not raise the amount of floors for casuals and give hardcore players the chance to start higher too? What is there too lose?

Dont get me wrong. I have nothing against a challenge. But honestly as far as I got myself and also read on reddit, it seems that mostly 81-90 are the hardest floors, and it felt for others that those beyond 91 are easier. The bosses are all seemingly quite normal. Wouldnt it be better if they just released a couple of really hardcore floors, which can be only done in a four man party (thus take out the solo part) and which is really hardcore from start to beginning including the bosses? And have these start at the floors after you beat the casual parts?

I just dont see the fun in having to run most of the deep dungeon for the handful of few good floors..And that is coming from someone that is more casual and still went to 81 with a complete group of strangers.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And how is it great for the hardcore crowd if they still have to go through all the easy useless floors? 50/50 and with the option to start at 51, they would get faster to the real hardcore floors, while the rest of us also has more floors and maybe even a langer story..in the end the hardcore crowd got Ultimate, will get Omega the next patch and they can still run this the ultra hardcore way by doing it solo (if you dont have DCs like me..) or with only another player.

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Because the concept of the content is a gauntlet dungeon of prgressing difficulty, it's already enough they allow you to start from 21 (or 51). The concept was always that you had to start low to get to the end and it would become progressing difficulty. If you have a problem with the concept that it YOUR OWN PROBLEM.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Because the concept of the content is a gauntlet dungeon of prgressing difficulty, it's already enough they allow you to start from 21 (or 51). The concept was always that you had to start low to get to the end and it would become progressing difficulty. If you have a problem with the concept that it YOUR OWN PROBLEM.

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No need to yell. Yet somehow even though that was the concept some that wanted to do the harder floors, still complained about the long way up to those...why did they listen to them? I mean shouldnt they just have accepted that this takes time? Yet SE gave in and somehow not only cut all floors in half but the casual ones even more..and on top of that I found barely anything really a challenge for complete groups. (At least until 81) Most of the bosses are a joke and for me PotD <100 was already harder, at least with the bosses. Honestly I dont really feel much progression of the difficulty until the few couple floors left. If you give casuals only 30 ones, why not start with difficult content right at 31?

And again. Its not that 50/50 would change the difficulty..it would just give the rest access to 20 more floors without needing a group and none of these floors feel like they need a fixed party either. So no I dont see this as a good reason because its not getting much harder until later.

(Also the: its your own problem can be said about any content that someone does not like..thats like a killer for any good argument or feedback in any discussion)

I would like to have more slots for fixed party.

Wish they add option where if ones that already made it to floor 100 in a premade party could have option to start out on floor 31 or floor 71. That way don't have to be there for 5 hours getting to floor 100 again.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

No need to yell. Yet somehow even though that was the concept some that wanted to do the harder floors, still complained about the long way up to those...why did they listen to them? I mean shouldnt they just have accepted that this takes time? Yet SE gave in and somehow not only cut all floors in half but the casual ones even more..and on top of that I found barely anything really a challenge for complete groups. (At least until 81) Most of the bosses are a joke and for me PotD <100 was already harder, at least with the bosses. Honestly I dont really feel much progression of the difficulty until the few couple floors left. If you give casuals only 30 ones, why not start with difficult content right at 31?

And again. Its not that 50/50 would change the difficulty..it would just give the rest access to 20 more floors without needing a group and none of these floors feel like they need a fixed party either. So no I dont see this as a good reason because its not getting much harder until later.

(Also the: its your own problem can be said about any content that someone does not like..thats like a killer for any good argument or feedback in any discussion)

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And I've said plentyful that SE gave in too much to some requests from the community which have lead the game to be more and more shallow.
My Hyperbole was to demosntarte it, I've also brought the example of ppl complaining that 99 totems are too much for the mount WHICH should be a rarity in the game.
What's next? starting from garuda is too punishing? shall we start from Ultima directly once you reach it once, just like savage? It's already insulting in savage honestly
Also let me tell you this, the stakes are what makes the floor good, the fact that your progress will be lost and you'll be punished for your mistakes hevily, which is the whole point of the content, the fact that you have to run those useless floors if something you do is wrong is what makes it all the more worthwhile, it's a chemical reaction. If you remove them and you start alreay at the harder ones it simply becomes any other content in the game, that gets consumed quickly and then shat out just as fast.
It's what ppl have been saying.

And pls don't even say to me that potd bosses were harder, maybe in solo, but frankly they were rehased version of earlier bosses, some just as easy, the only remarkable one was the succubus on 150 floor , the rest was just a ZZZZ with the only execption of the behemoth.

This ,just like the story critic, to me is BS, if anything bosses are just as easy, but definitively not easier

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy.

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It's poor game design, just like having people convert hundreds upon hundreds of anemos crystals one by one, or having people convert hundreds of treasure coffers that primarily yield unstackable gear.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Thats the way its designed.

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Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I personally dont want it to have it broken into 3-4 tiers. That to me just makes it easier to do, not harder

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It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

IMO, just leave it as it is. I like it that way.

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If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

shall we start from Ultima directly once you reach it once, just like savage? It's already insulting in savage honestly

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What prevents you from leaving the instance and reentering each time you wipe on Neo or Godka?

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

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Thats a QoL feature that has 0 impact on the content from a challange point, unless you consider it a challange to repeatedly click a text box. This is a case of apples and nuclear powered submarines.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

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The trouble still stands that if you dont have to worry about going all teh way back to 21, and spending time getting back (time is the punishment factor here), then you can just play it fast and loose if it goes back down to 80. And btw, lets be realistic. If htey add tiers, people will point out the pomander issue, then theyll be in the position to patch it so you get pomanders 'easier' at the higher lvls to counteract that. Or inversely, if the content isnt passable without the pomanders, then having a lvl 80 tier would be a moot point. They would have to implement chest changes at those higher tiers for them to be functional.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

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Just let me start at Ultimate modes. I shouldnt have to take the time and clear Savage tiers. They take to much time to do, and getting a static together? God. Thats a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

It's poor game design, just like having people convert hundreds upon hundreds of anemos crystals one by one, or having people convert hundreds of treasure coffers that primarily yield unstackable gear.

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How is it poor game design? Again, “because I don’t like it” isn’t a valid reason. The examples you have provided are completely unrelated. As Melichior said, unless you find it challenging to unlock each box individiually, they aren’t the same thing. That’s a true QoL feature; allowing later starts in HoH or even PotD is not—it’s just something that negates the challenge of the content: the challenge is the gauntlet, and the incentive to not wipe, or otherwise you start all over. It’s not threatening to wipe on Floor 97 if I can start on Floor 61 or 81.

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

Feedback regarding sack loot: You know, if they have to put in little temporary silly loot like confetti and sparklers, why not make it something more fun? Say a glamour that turns you into the odder otter that the traps do, but say it lasts 5 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Kisik

Feedback regarding sack loot: You know, if they have to put in little temporary silly loot like confetti and sparklers, why not make it something more fun? Say a glamour that turns you into the odder otter that the traps do, but say it lasts 5 minutes?

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That, or they could put those Empyrean Sustain Potions in there.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

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Yup, pretty much this. People can't complete it so they want the fun took away from those of us who can instead of actually improving enough to do it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Thats a QoL feature that has 0 impact on the content from a challange point, unless you consider it a challange to repeatedly click a text box.

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The relic and the glamour is a grind. Being able to convert multiple crystals at once nerfs that grind.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

then you can just play it fast and loose if it goes back down to 80.

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You mention 80 again when no one has suggested that far in.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Or inversely, if the content isnt passable without the pomanders, then having a lvl 80 tier would be a moot point. They would have to implement chest changes at those higher tiers for them to be functional.

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PoTD and HoH are not balanced at all. Check out the solo scores for each job.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Just let me start at Ultimate modes.

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The floors before ultimate are easy, even without a full party?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The examples you have provided are completely unrelated.

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Both waste time for no reason.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

they aren’t the same thing. That’s a true QoL feature; allowing later starts in HoH or even PotD is not—it’s just something that negates the challenge of the content: the challenge is the gauntlet, and the incentive to not wipe, or otherwise you start all over. It’s not threatening to wipe on Floor 97 if I can start on Floor 61 or 81.

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

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"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things."

With the crystals, if you wanted to turn them in one by one to augment the challenge you perceive, you could still do it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That, or they could put those Empyrean Sustain Potions in there.

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Says people should stop asking for nerfs to time investment to reach the interesting content because it offends them, then goes on to ask for a similar nerf (would reduce the number of 21-30 runs).

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Yup, pretty much this. People can't complete it so they want the fun took away from those of us who can instead of actually improving enough to do it themselves.

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How is the fun taken away if the option is still there? If you only find it fun if everyone else has to do it the same way, that's on you.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things."

With the crystals, if you wanted to turn them in one by one to augment the challenge you perceive, you could still do it.

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Are you seriously suggesting that opening several hundred Anemos lootboxes one at a time should've stayed included because it's part of the grind?

...Boi, what?

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Says people should stop asking for nerfs to time investment to reach the interesting content because it offends them, then goes on to ask for a similar nerf (would reduce the number of 21-30 runs).

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Care to point out where I said I was “offended”? I said I was annoyed that people demand everything be easier because they don’t want to put in time or effort for things. And I don’t see how adding in Sustaining potions to sacks is a “nerf”; people would still run HoH 21-30 to level alt jobs anyways—they aren’t running those for the potsherds typically.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.”

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Thank you for agreeing that things should take more time. I’m glad we finally agree that the challenge floors’ start should remain at Floor 21. :)

Personally I'm enjoying HoH. It's content I can pick up and do a little of or, if the stars align, I can do a lot of. Now that it's been out a few days sure I'm encountering the people who are on their last weapon and just want to go go go through anything and everything (which was what eventually drove me away from matched party PoD) but for the most part most groups are still willing to investigate for things and open all the chests.

That said, let me take a moment to address the two main complaints I've found in this thread, firstly the start point.

I don't think it's unreasonable to start at floor 21. My group is probably the worst at scheduling. We are so varied, none of us have the same days off, none of us match up our working hours, there are very narrow windows of opportunity for us to get our Deep Dungeon on so when we all do sit down we try to consume everything in one giant bite. I cannot tell you how many wipes this has resulted in because it's suddenly two in the morning and we make a mental fatigue mistake that ends everything. Or we don't get the Poms we need. Or we get unlucky and trigger double luring traps on floor 160+. I digress. My point is that with only 80 floors to climb we are all pumped. That's a whole 70 floors less previously. That means we might get two attempts per session instead of one. They already cut the entire deep dungeon in half and they cut the number of floors you need to clear from the last 'checkpoint' in half too.

Secondly, on the loot bags.

Yes, please just stop with the confetti. No more confetti in bags. If you really, really, really feel the need to give us confetti then give us a token we can exchange for X bags of the confetti/prism of our choice. What I think would be far more practical and at least useful for the 'dud' bags is to give us elemental shards, crystals, and clusters respectively. Crafters can always use more and those that don't craft can always just stick them on the MB. It's not like these aren't a reward in other content, you can get them from maps after all, and as long as it's not some massive number...what's the issue? Also, what is so wrong with giving out crafter/gatherer materia in some of these bags? Lastly, how about some useful demimaterias instead of just the 'vendor for gil' clear ones, maybe even unique ones that could be used to craft unique items in the future? Any and all of these would be better additions to the bags than confetti.

I hope this was a useful addition to the conversation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Are you seriously suggesting that opening several hundred Anemos lootboxes one at a time should've stayed included because it's part of the grind?

...Boi, what?

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That was my reaction. Apparently, some people are so masochistic or set on extending the grind time that even pushing a button 500 times instead of 100 times gives them joy. I'm all for a grind to earn something, but clicking a button should not be factored into that grind at all. A grind is fine, a mindless grind is not. The only other thing I can think of is they get some sense of accomplishment from doing monotonous tasks longer than anyone else can tolerate them.

And for the record, I think the grind in HoH is fine.

Been running potd for a long time 8 or so wins, now doing hoh with same static. We won 80 and 90 on 2 slots so prolly 100 win soon enough.

To give feedback, do not increase the level to enter. Potd and HoHs biggest + is the rush you get from clearing a floor while having the risk to go back.

Finding a team that does 20>100 in 2-3 goes isnt hard either.

That being said the luck factor in 80-90 is rough. 5 mimics in a row and another 4 monster traps qq all the nice pomander.

Bosses are simple especially the lv 80 one left us confused and waiting for a real mechanic.

It really comes down to floor luck and respecting each monster and its skills.

We have not see a single odin magicite, is there a requirement? Or really just luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Are you seriously suggesting that opening several hundred Anemos lootboxes one at a time should've stayed included because it's part of the grind?

...Boi, what?

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Not at all. I'm using an absurd pov for the crystals to highlight how off some of the arguments are here.

I can reign it in a bit: Cooldowns resetting on wipe. It only mattered in savage and EX. It supposedly added to the difficulty since it punished you for wiping, but in reality all it did was waste people's time. "Oh goodie, we have to wait a few minutes to pull because someone accidentally hit an ability with a long cooldown or it's still on cooldown from the last run" - said no one ever. For the newer players, I'm not exaggerating at all here. It used to be your abilities did not reset if you wiped. Anyone saying they want that to return is lying.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

To give feedback, do not increase the level to enter. Potd and HoHs biggest + is the rush you get from clearing a floor while having the risk to go back.

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OP isn't asking for a change, but an addition. It wouldn't affect you at all.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Potd and HoHs biggest + is

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The loot and exp. Remove those and almost no one would run it.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

This ,just like the story critic, to me is BS, if anything bosses are just as easy, but definitively not easier

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Story is subjective. If you liked it thats fine, others can dislike it too. Even someone like Ethys was more like "what" about the story so it can be a good feedback. Can you really argue against that 20 floors more would have given us more story? If it would have been better thats another question and again subjective. We are also had nice cameos with death npcs and their bubble talks while now we have the god animals in there without any reason, while at least it was explained with PotD.

I do feel like bosses are easier for both groups. Edda had fail mechanics that could kill the whole group if people messed up and got hit, while the 30 boss can be done solo if all of the others are dead. (Heck even being low level and hit with three aoes I was still alive in my first run) PotD 100 which was also still a casual boss could kill you outright if you did not have a certain pomander and be run over by too many adds. Boss 80 had no single really hurtful special attack and everything else could be easily healed. The only hard thing on the higher floors are the group of monsters in 81+ because they are one hits if you mess up their rotations but that was already the case with PotD. But now with the new pomanders this has gotten easier too (if you have them, but RNG is probably the hardest part in this). I mean people already cleared this on the first or second day. So yes for me this is not really hardcore anymore (only solo or with only two players).

About Ultimate: Its kinda funny that you talk about that since the first Ultimate also took longer and yet people complained about this and the shortened the next fight. And lets not forget that Ultimate itself takes around the same time like one 21-30 run. Lets talk more about Neo-Exdeath. Why does the savage fight start at this one again if you wipe? Shouldnt they just start the fight from the very beginning again? Yet there its fine, even though the time for each fight itself is much less than any deep dungoen run. (And I did see that you mentioned that as not nice either, but at least I never saw a thread here that stated that people dislike it, so seemingly its mostly fine with the savage fighters)

Again I am not saying that we should have a save point after each 10 floors. But 50/50 in HoH which the starting point at 51 would have made it much more interesting for me because the harder floors starts later anyway and if they had the 1-100 in PotD and started 101+ which each run it would have taken some of the grind away that seemingly some of those that challenged these floors complained about. (Suddenly a handful more hours there is bad, but if people want the same for a few more floors in HoH is the worst..x)) This would have changed nothing for the difficulty of the higher floors because you still needed the right pomanders, a good group and still a few hours of time, but it would have taken away those lower floors that are nothing but a grind thats not necessary for hardcore..heck you could even go and say that starting higher could make it harder and more of a challenge because you cant gather the pomanders in all the lower floors. ;)

Edit: I really hope that those that want this to stay the way like it is now, are not the same that complained that PotD took too long.

And again if someone states that they want x change for y reason (for example start at 51 because it takes too much time otherwise and give the casual crowd more floors too), then its an argument and a reason. Just because you dont like the reason doesnt make it a bad one or none at all. Heck I did ask why its a challenge to even do all the floors before the true challenge starts. Do you really find it a challenge to run from 21-60? Honestly those floors are still good to watch some Lets plays next to playing it or to chat a bit. Wouldnt it be better to start higher but truly have a challenge at those last floors? (Including bosses that cant be one hitted with a certain magicite..)

For me time is not really a challenge, especially if most of time goes for floors that are not even one..Otherwise why not just put in big amounts of trash monsters in savage fights before the boss, that will take their time but are still not really a challenge. And every single time that you wipe on the boss you have to do them again. And I am not meaning enemies like the faust dolls. I mean truly trash mob, that needs a bit of a attention but nothing really a challenge. Would that be good?