So about Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Raise isn't the biggest reason BLM is poor for progression; it's because of how intimately one needs to know the fight so they know where to stand to maximize their dps. A BLM who doesn't know where or how to stand will always do less dps than a SMN, and in a lot of cases even RDM.

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I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

BLM have already get buffed like 200+ dps and summoner have get nerfed around 100 dps from UCOB. It does not matter even if blm is top dps, players want raise for ultimate progress. It not matter how much is your dps once you practice. It not matter if you mana become 0 and you can not dps. What matter is you can practice the boss mechanics little longer without 10 min warmp up every time. Nobody want BLM during progressing long fights like ultimate. As long BLM not have raise it is poor state in progress if you dont play with second caster. BLM is totally viable in ultimate, but nobody want it during progress.

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How much dps is a raise worth? There is a value where it becomes an option to consider, but at the moment its nowhere near the value it should be. But its hard to say what it should be.

Either way, a group shield, or resist, or something, any kind of utility that would be useful. Any of that would be a viable option to give them. This whole concept of the "greedy dps" has turned into a flop on its worth. For blm and sam

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

How much dps is a raise worth? There is a value where it becomes an option to consider, but at the moment its nowhere near the value it should be.

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Raise is not worth of any dps. There is not single way how raise would improve your group dps performance. During progress any dps is not worth of raise. Think about if you could make practice party for ultima only without needing garuda/ifrit/titan phase at all. I mean if there would be practice mode. Would you rather take blm that have 1k more dps, but you have to start from garuda or would you rather take rdm with 1k less dps as handicap, but you can start progress from ultima and skip first 10 minutes? Because that is what raise theoretically is. You can practice more mechanics in single pull even after mistakes and that way progress lot faster.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

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Also in Ultimate there are very few places where you can raise and still push through for a clear--and one of those is an LB3 after Titan. Also worth noting BLM has to find a place to root down and play while the whole party comes up with strats around them, while SMN can adapt almost on the fly with the party.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Raise is not worth of any dps. There is not single way how raise would improve your group dps performance. During progress any dps is not worth of raise. Think about if you could make practice party for ultima only without needing garuda/ifrit/titan phase at all. I mean if there would be practice mode. Would you rather take blm that have 1k more dps, but you have to start from garuda or would you rather take rdm with 1k less dps as handicap, but you can start progress from ultima and skip first 10 minutes? Because that is what raise theoretically is. You can practice more mechanics in single pull even after mistakes and that way progress lot faster.

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Problem with thinking like this is, from first raise, you're no longer progging, you're just watching mechanics. From first raise, the GCD to GCD muscle memory progression is done, unless you plan that exact death and raise every time, which you don't.

It would be more like "You can start at Titan for prog, but you have to start with two DPS dead, tank at low HP, and healers straining for mana."

I suppose I should cede right now that raise =/= end of that run's prog, however you're going to be progressing differently, because from the first raise you now have two people who are now off rotation who can no longer optimize for the fight with cooldowns both offensive and defensive.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Dude, all the posts I've seen you posting in this thread have very poor arguments/make no sense at all.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

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actually this... and with every post u do Zera it shows more and more that your experience in raiding or caster cls at all are poor. your goal is to get blm in ultimate? thats why you bash and hate smns state atm? sorry to disappoint you but blm won't take that spot even if they cut smns dps by half. you are just salty that the fights aren't designed for a blms favor. its not about the res, nor the dps - its about smns mobility which kicks blms ass and your ego, nothing else. all your arguments about first clears, prog, dps, utility won't change the fact that blm wont be top choice for endgame (progress) - if you wanna flame someone flame se for the level design and not a cls who actually fits that design better than yours.

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Originally Posted by Neela

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The more you reply the more clear it is that you actually haven't read anything at all in this thread actually. Or even bothered to look me up for that matter, yet claim I don't have experience with casters.

Also, mobility? It's mobility as the core reason smn > blm? I think it's clear who lacks experience in this argument between us, and I'll give you a hint: it's you.

But hey, it's nice you messed up and admitted we're right by acknowledging these fights are far more catered to smn than blm. So thank you for finally agreeing that there's a problem.

Mobility is only an argument, if we compare plain training dummy dps.
If we compare real boss fights then mobility already is contained in the measured dps. So there is nothing to complain if the real bossfight is balanced according to self dps + support.

And BLM has a good amount of mobility, it just has to be planned. BLM has 3x instant cast + 1x instant cast. He can teleport towards another player, he can teleport to his leylines and scathe is intant as well (yes it is a dps loss but better than nothing).

RDM has not a single GCD instant cast except from swiftcast which is needed to gamble for procs, so it is not for free use. Instead he has small repeating timeslots where he can move. This needs planning as well. No free running like BLM.

Yes SMN has the simplest way for free movement. But at cost of a small amount of dps and a big amount of mana if not timed with trance or bahamut. Usually SMN is NOT allowed to use swiftcast for dps, so he is able to raise. SMNs movement is not as OP as others think.

If not needed too often then BLM can move without any dps or mana loss just by timing swiftcast and sharpcast as needed or by using teleport.
RDM can move without DPS loss as well if he does not need to move very fast and can make several smaller steps.

So the only mechanics where SMN really has advantage with movement is if you have to move a lot and often in a small amount of time. In all other cases it is just different but not necessarily worse.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Also, mobility? It's mobility as the core reason smn > blm? I think it's clear who lacks experience in this argument between us, and I'll give you a hint: it's you.

But hey, it's nice you messed up and admitted we're right by acknowledging these fights are far more catered to smn than blm. So thank you for finally agreeing that there's a problem.

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Isn't mobility that makes SMN more suited to current savage and ultimate content ? Isn't the content "catered" more for SMN than BLM because it requires you to move ?

Also I don't get why you two are fighting like kids trying to argue who's dad is the best. "But muh DPS should be at the top at all times and SMN deals as much as me and they have TONS of utility". And yet you compare that to NIN and DRG.

First, SMN's party buffs are nowhere near NIN, DRG or BRD's level, but their personnal DPS is higher. A Trick Attack alone can bring more than 900 rDPS, DRG can bring around 1200 rDPS with two physical ranged. BRD's also around 1000 rDPS. Now if you consider all these raid buffs and you combine them with personnal DPS, you'll notice that SMN isn't the only one doing more DPS than a BLM. BRD, DRG, NIN, MNK, even MCH, contribute more damage than a BLM. Then, the difference between BLM and all the other jobs I listed isn't so huge it makes BLM unplayable at higher levels. Please consider that RDM's personnal+raid DPS is still lower than BLM. And yet they have much more ultimate coil clears than BLM for example.

I do see your point Sunako, and agree with it. I suppose an easier question would be, what kind of group defensive utility could compete with a raise? If you think that could be possible at all. Like say a group wide mana wall, which would soften defense cd checks, while also boosting LB. Or maybe a very long cd short duration boss debuff like Mini to act in a similar fashion to a stronger reprisal.

yeah it’s totally me Zera... totally ^^‘

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Originally Posted by Megguido

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BLM mobility in these fights really isn't that bad for people who are used to playing blm. It's harder to do, but far from being the determining factor to not blm these fights. Especially with recent changes to AM speed and it's cool down.

As for the other dude, idk what their issue is. Somewhere along the line they start making personal attacks, and it's fun to stab back when they have zero ground to stand on. I know I shouldn't, but eh.

10% vuln up, 1/6 uptime...about 16% uptime give or take? So about 1.6% rDPS if my math's not off? https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...vfhHVnNJdqg/18
42,184.4 * .016 = 674.9 which is close to that Nin's trick damage (657).

To have Trick count for >900 dps, total group dps needs to be about 56,500. Which is frankly ridiculous. Where'd you get numbers like that from?

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

As for the other dude, idk what their issue is. Somewhere along the line they start making personal attacks, and it's fun to stab back when they have zero ground to stand on. I know I shouldn't, but eh.

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take a closer look who got personal first pal - else you are right its fun to stab back if you have zero ground to stand on. ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

take a closer look who got personal first pal - else you are right its fun to stab back if you have zero ground to stand on. ^^

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What ever you say green queen. ;^)

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

10% vuln up, 1/6 uptime...about 16% uptime give or take?
So about 1.6% rDPS if my math's not off? https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...vfhHVnNJdqg/18
42,184.4 * .016 = 674.9 which is close to that Nin's trick damage (657).

To have Trick count for >900 dps, total group dps needs to be about 56,500. Which is frankly ridiculous. Where'd you get numbers like that from?

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Your maths are off because you are not considering a very important detail: burst. It's not because you have 16% uptime on a 10% damage up buff that you will deal 1.6% more damage overall. I'll take WAR as an example. Their IR burst window lasts 10s every 90s, so it has 11% uptime. Though IR windows accounts for 30 to 40% of a WAR's total DPS which is far from the 11% uptime.

A competent team will synchronize their raid buffs so they can maximize their damage during those.

Anyway, you can find a NIN bringing more than 900 rDPS here for example. Lots of other teams doing speedkills reach similar amounts.

EDIT: wrong link, it's fixed now.

Fflogs tells me nothing of Trick Attacks addition to raid specifically unless you meant to link a Herokuapp.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...Yj8w4DGdfab/27

Current fastest GK kill has NIN at 861, which is almost 900, so its within the ballpark at least.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

Your maths are off because you are not considering a very important detail: burst. It's not because you have 16% uptime on a 10% damage up buff that you will deal 1.6% more damage overall. I'll take WAR as an example. Their IR burst window lasts 10s every 90s, so it has 11% uptime. Though IR windows accounts for 30 to 40% of a WAR's total DPS which is far from the 11% uptime.

A competent team will synchronize their raid buffs so they can maximize their damage during those.

Anyway, you can find a NIN bringing more than 900 rDPS here for example. Lots of other teams doing speedkills reach similar amounts.

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I think blackcat's app accounts for that
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...dCkybcY8NKx/19
That is pretty disgusting though.

Edit: nvm, you changed link

Fair point on burst, I'll cede there.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

What ever you say green queen. ;^)

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well your problem in a nutshell:

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Do you think nerfing summoner would make BLM more valuable in UwU?

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

honestly i just want blm to get a buff to the point its a viable option (in ult). be that from a noticeable dps gain over smn, or letting them have some kind of unique group utility again.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Raise (or utility in general) isn't the biggest reason BLM is poor for progression; it's because of how intimately one needs to know the fight so they know where to stand to maximize their dps. A BLM who doesn't know where or how to stand will always do less dps than a SMN, and in a lot of cases even RDM.

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you just don't get the point that complaining about smn won't solve blm endgame situation - no matter how hard u try or how personal u get. you can talk about flogs statistics and compare them to death for the next two weeks and it won't change anything - blm won't become a beloved prog cls in its design no matter how many pot buffs it will get - so just get over it.

@Zerathor, Dualgunner I editted the link, failed miserably my copy/pasting.

Well timed raid buffs can be very powerful, but we're talking about the best players out there. I'm pretty sure that in a much less coordinated team (PU group, casual / midcore static ?), a BLM can bring as much damage as a NIN because lots of people don't actually know how to use raid buffs efficiently.

If you boost BLM's damage to be competitive with DRG, BRD or NIN raid+personnal DPS at the highest levels of play, it would be quite OP in a less optimized environment, because you wouldn't need your team to coordinate that much to deal stupidly high amounts of damage. That 900 rDPS trick attack seems OP because the whole team is maximizing their rotation around it. Take a random pick-up group, and TA will be a plain 1.6% rDPS boost.

EDIT (cause too slow):

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you just don't get the point that complaining about smn won't solve blm endgame situation - no matter how hard u try or how personal u get. you can talk about flogs statistics and compare them to death for the next two weeks and it won't change anything

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People complaining that SMN > BLM can actually complain that SMN, BRD, NIN, MCH, DRG, MNK > BLM

Smn has never been in a bad spot for overly long because the community complained and the results was they overtuned it. Come into SB and look smn is again OP.
They have always gone back in forth between blm and smn with smn eventually always coming out on top.

If players are honestly fine that smn does more damage (and this is damage alone not counting the utility they bring) then jobs that all they bring is damage are clearly missing the point.
Nerfing is not the solution but at this point there is absolutely no excuse as to why Red Mage has not seen any changes/buffs, we are far enough into the expansion.
May as well use the line that was used for Sam, delete Red Mage if they do not care to change it.
RM is absolutely in last place for damage, possibly higher then Machinist in some cases? Probably not but just guessing

I can't edit on mobile but yeah I saw ^_^ I ceded the argument there but yeah, people who maximize this game are terrifying lol

I wouldn't say anything should be balanced like drg, even drg. You can see they get ridiculous buffs to rDPS passively just by party comp (likewise 5% of a jobs flat damage shouldn't be locked behind another job).

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Originally Posted by Megguido

@Zerathor, Dualgunner I editted the link, failed miserably my copy/pasting.

Well timed raid buffs can be very powerful, but we're talking about the best players out there. I'm pretty sure that in a much less coordinated team (PU group, casual / midcore static ?), a BLM can bring as much damage as a NIN because lots of people don't actually know how to use raid buffs efficiently.

If you boost BLM's damage to be competitive with DRG, BRD or NIN raid+personnal DPS at the highest levels of play, it would be quite OP in a less optimized environment, because you wouldn't need your team to coordinate that much to deal stupidly high amounts of damage.

People complaining that SMN > BLM can actually complain that SMN, BRD, NIN, MCH, DRG, MNK > BLM

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yeah and it took 2 major expansion and a complete redesign of smns-skillstructure to make him viable for raids at all – how can blm think minor pot buffs would change their problem? I just can't understand this hate and mimimi for no given reason... q.q

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Fflogs tells me nothing of Trick Attacks addition to raid specifically unless you meant to link a Herokuapp.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...Yj8w4DGdfab/27

Current fastest GK kill has NIN at 861, which is almost 900, so its within the ballpark at least.

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Ninja damage is also not the highest but TA i believe i read somewhere brings around 400 or so rDps

Neela summoner has always been viable. This is just the first time in a few years a caster has made it back onto the meta. Or at least challenged for it.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Ninja damage is also not the highest but TA i believe i read somewhere brings around 400 or so rDps

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NIN's Trick Attack depends on your team. You can be the best ninja in the world, if you're in a team of random people that don't know how to play around raid buffs, you Trick Attack won't bring much DPS to the team.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Neela summoner has always been viable. This is just the first time in a few years a caster has made it back onto the meta. Or at least challenged for it.

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you know what I meant >__>

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Originally Posted by Neela

you know what I meant >__>

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Just doing my best to keep terminology clear. :)

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Just doing my best to keep terminology clear. :)

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thats kinda nice tho ;3

To sort of shift gears a bit and bring Llugen's talking points up, I think at some point we need to let go of the idea of "selfish dps". This game rewards the utility dps with stacking buffs that give enormous output, and while it is nice to have a dps that can counter bad team play...ideally in high play (where things should be balanced) you won't have a bad team so that tool becomes irrelevant.

SAM and BLM need to offer something to the party beyond dps.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

To sort of shift gears a bit and bring Llugen's talking points up, I think at some point we need to let go of the idea of "selfish dps". This game rewards the utility dps with stacking buffs that give enormous output, and while it is nice to have a dps that can counter bad team play...ideally in high play (where things should be balanced) you won't have a bad team so that tool becomes irrelevant.

SAM and BLM need to offer something to the party beyond dps.

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yeah their problem is not dps its the concept idea of raw-selfish playstyle and the fact se can't handle their idea in execution... same with rdm - a char who has massive advantages out of savage like eureka, potd or the upcoming HoH, "must" fall behind in savage if we talk about "cls-balance" and not just "savage-balance".

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Originally Posted by Neela

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It's more of using smn as a comparison point to assist on buffing blm to be more where it needs to be to be competitive. Not even really about nerfing smn.

-The mobility is a complete non issue.
-The dps is very close due to smn being burst based and they can synergize with most group buff timers by doing their standard cycle.
-Smn has raise

My issue is that for having something as powerful as a raise, they don't suffer much of any penalty for it. That doesn't inherently mean "nerf smn", it means give blm some kind of unique utility that can be objectively as good as raise, or a more noticeable damage edge so the price of having a raise in your arsenal isn't almost free.

The only objective edge you can argue for blm, is they probably lose the least dps if they die and get raised compared to most jobs. That's not a very good edge.

I have the feeling SE doesn't want every job to be competitive and perfectly equals at very high levels of play. They just want every job to be viable and capable of clearing content, and have jobs that are better for different kind of contents (which is not the case of every MMO btw, e.g. I came from Wakfu, where there's like 18 different classes but 6 or 7 of them are just incompatible with endgame).

Some jobs are the best during progression, such as DRK, WHM and RDM.
Some jobs are the best at speedkill runs, like NIN, DRG, BRD, AST, WAR.
Some jobs are the best for casual content, like BLM and SAM (which can actually speedrun a dungeon for example, or bring very high damage for 24-players raids where everyone is running over the place like headless chickens).

That's only my opinion on the matter though.

Regarding non savage balance...

I don't think that should be a thing. Savage is the natural outcome for battle content--ie, challenging battle content (combat is conflict and conflict is closely related to challenge). Then we run into the problem of RDM being the only job who is weak in savage because they are strong in other content, which isn't fair for RDM who like to raid.

RDM's verraise should be shackled in some way or removed. I don't even particularly care if vercure is nerfed for cure potency, its main use is proccing dualcast in a phase transition.

Though it's very comfy to have a RDM in the team when you're going in a brand new fight and you don't know / never did the mechanics. RDM can cover some of the party's mistake (a verraise in dungeon can save the run if the healer stood into stupid and died for example).

We're not quite on a competitive game where balance is key. Only a tiny fraction of the playerbase is actually in competition for speedkill runs and ultimate world first. Should the GDs balance the jobs around this ? And take the risk of having some jobs absolutely OP or useless at casual levels ?

LoL is a great example of this GD dilemma. There's a champ which is overpowered at competitive level, so they nerf it to a point pros can use it and not roflstomp their opponents. But then, once nerfed, the champion is complete garbage for casual players. So they either make it balanced for 0.01% of the playerbase and have fair competitions, or balance it for the majority and have the champ banned 100% of the time.

SE probably took the opposite decision and chose to balance jobs around the majority of the playerbase. Wouldn't BLM be insanely powerful outside of optimized raid teams if it were balanced to match DRG or BRD's damage in the same conditions ?

I mean its nice when trying to see mechanics, yes. However that in and of itself is only good for bleeding edge prog when you want to see mechanics. When guides are out there's no question that wiping and starting over is the better option when anything more than Summoner's raise is needed.

As far as it being useful during a freak healer death in a dungeon--again, so is Summoner's. Besides which if RDM didn't have it and the healer died it would be no different than if the party just had neither a RDM nor a SMN now.

I also don't want raise to be hit with possible nerfs without RDM itself seeinh buffs in other areas--like actual improved damage support and actual healer support if needed.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

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It's comes down to how you personally think things should be ballanced:

-ballanced around what average/below average players can do

Or

-ballance around the potential of what the job is capable of

I think it should be more for what it's capable of. Players can learn and improve to reach that potential, but a job that's prematurely capped off will never grow further without patch changes. This game is actually doing a fairly good job of trying for it too imo, so I believe that's what they want.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Regarding non savage balance...

I don't think that should be a thing. Savage is the natural outcome for battle content--ie, challenging battle content (combat is conflict and conflict is closely related to challenge). Then we run into the problem of RDM being the only job who is weak in savage because they are strong in other content, which isn't fair for RDM who like to raid.

RDM's verraise should be shackled in some way or removed. I don't even particularly care if vercure is nerfed for cure potency, its main use is proccing dualcast in a phase transition.

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yeah but its not just removing verraise to open their dd-destiny for endgame. they have to think about pve content as well: achievements like necromancer or discovery grind dngs like eureka (progress) are rdms home atm like savage progress as well way before farm and speedruns.

cause atm I think similar like Megguido – different jobs shine in different duties... and if they really go for an-all-cls balance just for savage, many other parts of the game are effected indirectly as well...

the generell question is if endgame balance is designed on so many cls (and we will get even more in the future) - u can't go for peaks, and all cls will be similar in style just to "be fair"... the more real balance is given the more boring it will be in general Imo.

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Originally Posted by Neela

yeah but its not just removing verraise to open their dd-destiny for endgame. they have to think about pve content as well achievements like necromancer as well than. cause atm I think similar like Megguido – different jobs shine in different duties... and if they really go for an-all-cls balance just for savage, many other parts of the game are effected as well.

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Verraise is useless in relation to necromancer though lol. And they need to increase the power of refresh potions for potd so other jobs can get through it as well, however even rdm has only seen two solo potds afaik.

Its really just potd and hoh that are affected and even then just for very niche achievements. Nothing else is really harmed.

I mean, yes it feels unfair. People want to do content with the job they love, and said job isn't necessarily the most catered for savage for example. Like RDM being like 500 DPS behind SMN just because it can spam raise.

Imo, I prefer having a job that is not "meta" and have fun with it rather than playing something I have less fun with. Savage raids can be cleared with any team composition, having a meta comp doesn't mean having more success. Our team had a WHM, DRK, RDM, SAM and MNK, so very little raid buffs, and cleared all Sigma savage just fine.

I am a bit in the same situation as you are Dualgunner, but on tank side. Why would I play DRK when I can be 250 DPS higher with WAR ? Though this difference is insignificant for like 99.9% of the content. And frankly, 250 more DPS on DRK would be nice, but it wouldn't change a damn thing overall (yay the boss would die 0.5s earlier).