Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I want to do Savage mode content

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I've cleared all Binding Coils b4 Echo, Cleared Second Coil b4 Echo, and Final Coil b4 Echo, Cleared All Forms of Alexander b4 Echo, Mained Tanks and Heals for Binding Coil, Second coil DPS, Final Coil DPS/Tank,
Father DPS, Son DPS, Creator Tank/DPS.

There is tons of fun to be had with a static even if you have to pub it, I managed to float replacement DPS for most of Second coil until i landed a static,
If you are looking for a Casual static for Savage there exists that out in the community, there's groups out there that just joke and try having a good time but still get clears enough to make it worth it and enjoyable for them.

the damage numbers from DRK is looking around 2700 while warrior and paladin are 3200 , PLD HAS 40%+ block.
Doing DPS is second priority for us, Especially for some of us who have been tanking for so long holding aggro is a trivial joke and all that's left is to MIN/MAX Damage

Tanks that do only 1-2-3 in Tank-Stance, just stop...

OMG....I have to log in to respond to this one.....As an aggressive tank, you think you are "pro" because you can dps stance while using properly cooldowns to stay alive enough when outputting maximum dps. Well, you know what? You are NOT! You can play like this only because you HAVE A HEALER THAT IS GOOD FOR REAL and NOT busy to healer other real dpses in the party. And PRAY for a healer that mainly focus on healing.......

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

OMG....I have to log in to respond to this one.....As an aggressive tank, you think you are "pro" because you can dps stance while using properly cooldowns to stay alive enough when outputting maximum dps. Well, you know what? You are NOT! You can play like this only because you HAVE A HEALER THAT IS GOOD FOR REAL and NOT busy to healer other real dpses in the party. And PRAY for a healer that mainly focus on healing.......

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No

/char

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

OMG....I have to log in to respond to this one.....As an aggressive tank, you think you are "pro" because you can dps stance while using properly cooldowns to stay alive enough when outputting maximum dps. Well, you know what? You are NOT! You can play like this only because you HAVE A HEALER THAT IS GOOD FOR REAL and NOT busy to healer other real dpses in the party. And PRAY for a healer that mainly focus on healing.......

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I can't go offensive tanking unless I have a good healer I can trust? Well no shit, I trust my static healer and others that I know. Being a good tank is about gauging the capabilities of your party not just your own.

My healers acknowledge and know I'm going to be stance dancing or straight up DPS stance and they are more then happy to keep me up WHILE also dpsing them self. So... what's your point?

Aggro is something the whole party should focus on, not just the tank, and conversely DPS is also something the whole party should focus on not just the dedicated DD's. If you are ignoring your responsibility as a tank of maintaining enough enmity to safely DPS that is one thing, but if DPS are nuking everything in sight ignoring aggro-reduction abilities and not using their brains as to when they need to back off - that is another. With that said if you are safely ahead on the threat meter and just standing there continuing to pour on enmity instead of helping do more damage - it doesn't make any sense. As someone who played WoW through the years where tanks focused more on damage reduction and higher threat than damage (the dark days of trying to make a Paladin uncritable - one missed Holy Shield could kill you and you always focused on mitigation first) and then seeing the game transition to tanks doing crazy amounts of damage - in tank stance no less - was a weird change.

That's just the way it works in this game, I mean not for nothing I'm more of a traditionalist also and not crazy about the idea that I've also got to try to manage putting out the most damage I can while still managing my damage reduction CD's and making sure I'm keeping threat and moving the boss where it needs to be - but that's what tanking is in this game. If that doesn't sound like fun to you I would just change to another class type or not play the game. That's not me being snarky or smarmy, that's just me saying I don't think the dynamic of tanking in this game is going to change anytime soon and if you don't like what it currently is you are probably not going to have fun tanking in this game. It's going to be expected of you to know when you can help out with damage and to help out as much as possible. Doesn't do any good to get mad at the tanks who have accepted this - get mad at the devs for designing the game that way.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Excuse me you filthy peasant tank player, I am the hero here! Only MY damage should matter. You should be the good little dog you are and sit there with your shield up so I can have fun being the great hero.

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I'll just comment on that since the subject at hand doesn't interest me anymore (been since 2.1 that we get the same debate, same arguments all over again at every patch and the only results so far were SE being confused at what they do since all their design decisions thus far are contradicting themselves).

In a well designed "tanks do tank stuff, heals do heal stuff, dps do dps stuff" game, a dps getting agro would result in his quick and painful death immediately. So much for a "hero". I know it's easy to spit on the shield, but they are the sole reasons the DPS are able to do anything in the first place without being torn apart, and healers maintain the group as best as they can. So your sentence can very well be written again :

Excuse me you filthy peasant DPS player, I am the hero here! Only I can survive that foe. Go stick it with your pointy toys while I keep it occupied and don't forget to thank me for saving your sorry ass. and the healer for saving mine

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

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GO BACK TO THE HEALER SECTION

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

I might be wrong, but looking at the kit we currently have, I pretty much say it would be different imo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Well, our kits expanded (both DPS and tanks, the latter getting even more DPS tools I'd say), but the actual proportion of STR from tanks who only have STR on the left side versus DPS who had on both sides didn't.

In fact, it never did, actually! Ever since the beginning of ARR. What changed is the ratio of AP between tank and DPS after the STR/VIT change and it got lowered in favor of tanks. Before Heavensward, we had a 1:1 ratio of STR>AP. In 3.2, we got .45STR+.45VIT>AP because gear gives us more VIT than STR at equal iLVLs. And it got back to 1:1 STR>AP in Stormblood.

When the formula changed from STR to STR/VIT, it was solely to prevent tanks from using full STR accessories as it was against the intended use and it made tanks compete with melee DPS for the STR accessories that dropped, creating imbalance. People who already used full VIT accessories saw a AP boost from the change, if only a small one. Those who used full STR accessories got a bigger nerf, and had to switch back to VIT accessories. Even that failed a bit, because in some cases, people would prefer the secondaries over the loss of AP (like avoiding Parry as if it was the plague).


Granted, this ended up giving us tanks more DPS, and even though I've always said it's not something I bother about, of course I wouldn't complain if I did more. Hahaha

I suppose I'm not against people wanting to have that back. I'm not actually against tanks doing more DPS.

I am against people using accessories not meant for them. I'd actually prefer SE puts STR of tank accessories and close that debate. But people have to realize that STR/VIT will not come back. Yoshi-P stated himself, and I've known since 3.2 it was a temporary measure and it would get reverted in Stormblood. Why people forgot that, I do not know.

OP, you really don't understand optimal play in Final Fantasy XIV. The only thing I ask is that you stop spreading misinformation. All that does is confuses new players and prevents them from playing optimally. I will NEVER understand how people will try to argue paradigms for sub-optimal play and think the numbers and results won't prove them wrong every single time.

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

youre bad, refer to my comment on page 1. No content requires fulltime grit atm

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your job is to stand in front of the boss the whole time with your thumb up your ass waiting for everyone to kill the boss

not exactly the definition of skill now is it? people who take slaying dragons seriously enough to think there is any "skill" associated with it are hilarious. like come on people, enjoy the game sure. but don't fill your head up with bullshit XD raiding is just failing at a scripted event until you find the right way through

the same thing happens at the same time throughout every encounter, everything is telegraphed, everything is predictable and 90% of content doesn't even challenge players to actually plan carefully.

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Originally Posted by KMFDM_Kid2000

All that does is confuses new players and prevents them from playing optimally.

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Urgh, no. the LAST thing we need is new players in DF with full STR accessories as tanks. Please don't. Actually, please don't even do that in DF even if you're pro. save that for competent groups, aka your own friends/static

I don't understand why people are fighting about offensive or defensive tanking.
The healer and dps reaction will define how you can help them. If they decide you are just an enmity sponge, then so be it. If the healer seem bored go for max dps, nobody will blame you.
You can switch stuff inside dungeon too.

MY MAN, a good tank is defined by the party, not tank's personal ablity, if the party is tunnel visioning their dps at maximum you can't even leave tank stance, if you feel you have to do maximum dps as a tank, or the fight is extremely easy or your team is bad at dps...

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

MY MAN, a good tank is defined by the party, not tank's personal ablity, if the party is tunnel visioning their dps at maximum you can't even leave tank stance, if you feel you have to do maximum dps as a tank, or the fight is extremely easy or your team is bad at dps...

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Lucid Dream? Refresh? Diversion? Shirk? Shadewalker?

I'm sure the speed kill parties with tanks that start in DPS stance have bad dps. /s

Actually even without aggro control, you can get away with one(maybe two) Halone combos and just swap to SO as long your ilvl is on par or higher than the DPS's.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

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That's just straight up wrong though, especially with shirk around now its easier to stay in DPS stance even if the DDs are going ham. Have you people never done progression raiding? You aren't over geared you aren't fed top of the line tome gear yet every drop of DPS counts to push that next phase.

What is so wrong with us wanting to maximize the efficiency of our class? If we can survive and hold agro what the hell is wrong with us pushing an inch further? Everyone that says "tanks don't need to dps" either doesn't tank or doesn't do end game raiding because you wouldn't have that mind set otherwise. It's about squeezing every last bit I can get out of my class.

If some of you guys are content about being a sponge, a turtle and just stand there then by all means but don't go about saying "tanks don't need to dps" cause why the fuck not? I'm not asking to be big dick top dps, but I don't want to feel like I have a foam axe either.

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Originally Posted by Oxino

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as long both options exist ppl go to be fighting, technically defensive tanking is the standar one and the intented desing, but yeah we have radicals how take the defensive tanking to the extreme of only doing emity combos on tank stance with is complety wrong, a tank need to use all they tool kit.

agresive tanking is the most controversial one, they radicals here are extreme rude and claim tanking in dps stance is the only true way and if you dont do it you are bad, funny bcs tank stance its just a pasive buff/debuff most that another thing, and the normal ones how defend stance dancing depending of the situation but giving priority to be off tank stance if you can.

this is something like the old cleric stance problem, but the problem of tanks depend most of stats and pasive buffs that player skills, most of defensive tanks use all they skill set but dont like how whe have to sacrifice our pasive defense for extra damage making us feel less tanky and add more stress on other jobs when tanking means make everybody llife more easy.

I know most of you are all being sarcastic a**holes but the OP was stating a fact that all the tanks are trying to play their class like a dps instead of doing your job which is to tank. Yes you do dps and no you will never be at the top of the dps charts and you shouldn't be. I understand you want to optimize your dps for faster runs or downing harder content that makes sense and I get that logic. However your job is to sock damage and HOLD threat. So if you're wearing all these STR accessories just so you can do more dmg because you "want to be the very best that no one ever was" does not make you "pro-tank". It makes it harder on the healer to keep your role confused self alive when you try to pull the whole dungeon or for those tank busters. So leave the dpsing for the dps classes and be happy with what your class can dish out as is.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I suspect a lot of them are complaining because they got used to the MTing in DpS stance meta and the new meta and they fear that the new meta is going to force them to tank in tank stance hurting their dps parses.

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BINGO!


You won't get many agreeing with you, but I do.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A more likely scenario is that a tank in tank stance doing a proper optimized dps rotation will be able to generate enough enmity to hold hate.

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Now that is some bad tank design right there. Given how 1 (WAR) is required to be in dps stance to do anything close to a optimized rotation, and a second (DRK) also does not enjoy the kit it loses in grit.

See you are all for the Pally/Pally meta.

Alrighty. I don't even know why THIS became the new horse to beat, but alright.

You're tanking. Alright. Tank stance. Don't play like a DPS, so use your aggro combo exclusively.
... Well, actually, what is "tanking"? well that seems easy to define. you have 2 major checkboxes to define the VERY CORE BASICS of tanking. 2 things.

1) Am I getting beat in the face harder than your- nevermind. forget that thought. You are? Alright. Cool. Let's move onto to the other checkmark.
2) Are you surviving the attention of your overly clingy ex despite the restraining order you filed last week? No? It's ok. Cooldowns are there for that! Good job. You used one!

Alright. POP QUIZ! The above has been established- what else do you do now? What do you think is BETTER? Which do you think is more SKILLED? Which do you think is actually PROPER?

Do you...
A) Continue using an ability that offers no further benefit, while still penalizing yourself and the group's current progress.
B) Ignore the other 2/3rds of the abilities given to you over the course of 40 levels because "it's not part of your job".
C) Actually recognize your job is being fulfilled already and use abilities you have access to for the benefit of your fellow players.
D) I PLAY HOW I WANT, YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB!!!1!!1

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

It makes it harder on the healer to keep your role confused self alive when you try to pull the whole dungeon or for those tank busters.

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It only really makes it harder if you don't know how to use your mitigation CDs. All VIT does is provide a larger leeway for error. VIT doesn't provide any mitigation whatsoever.

To be fair though, it does seem like some people (not just tanks) don't know what their role is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...doing/djupjbz/

This post has gotten so out of control that any posts after page 11 will no longer be relevant because a lot of people don't seem to read/listen...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

BINGO!


You won't get many agreeing with you, but I do.

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coz the ones who are happy how it is not gona come here and bother complaining :P

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

This post has gotten so out of control that any posts after page 11 will no longer be relevant because a lot of people don't seem to read/listen...

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That's because your original argument demonstrates a total lack of understanding for what the problems are that people are complaining about. If anything, you're the one who doesn't seem to be reading/listening.

I'm confused as to whats really being debated here..... First of all, what is the definition of "optimize your dps".....? Is it about staying the longest in dps stance while at the same time holding emnity? Or does staying in tank stance while holding emnity and doin your dps rotation also fall under that definition.....Nobody is really just staying in tank stance and only doing their emnity combo right? Nobody is saying/has said that?

And what content are we talking about here? There are(or at least should be) numerous factors that should dictate how you play as a tank.... Gauging your party's capabilities should be a skill all tanks should have(or at least strive to have)... Are you playing with your FC/static? are you playing with a random df/pf group? Are we talking about dungeons, or raid encounters....?

If I play with friends/FC then Im sure as h*** going to go alot more offensive, then if I'm playing with a random df group.. Also if I've done the instance a gazillion times, I'll probably stance dance more often, gear level also plays a part in this.... Is the group well geared, does the healers mana bar barely move, does mobs die fast or slow...

Some of you seem to be saying that if you stay in tank stance then you are doing it wrong, I'd just like to know what content you are talking about....

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

But people have to realize that STR/VIT will not come back. Yoshi-P stated himself, and I've known since 3.2 it was a temporary measure and it would get reverted in Stormblood. Why people forgot that, I do not know.

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People do realize that. We think it's a dumb change because that temporary system, while not perfect, still worked a lot better than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Heleth

Or does staying in tank stance while holding emnity and doin your dps rotation also fall under that definition.....Nobody is really just staying in tank stance and only doing their emnity combo right? Nobody is saying/has said that?

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In a lot of ways they are, even if they don't know it. The only real thing this game brings to the table is changing stances mid battle. It's not that other games havn't done that it's just that most games lock you into your stance or just flat out don't have them and just have dps and agro skills(if even that, plenty of games just expect you to hold hate through damage). You have plenty of people trying to say tanks shouldn't dps, well if that's the case does that mean I shouldn't use anything that doesn't directly contribute enmity bonuses? If we acknowledge that goring blade, fell cleave, royal authority and such have a place in tanking then we acknowledge dps has a place in tanking.

You have these people saying "if I'm holding hate I'm doing my job" eh kind of. In many other games "holding hate" involves perfecting a rotation and maximizing dps while also hitting proper cooldowns. Basically FF14 allows tanks to be very very lazy and still hold hate. In many other games you wouldn't actually hold hate with the kind of lazy rotation and optimization these people suggest.

Lets be honest here optimizing means using the full kit, suggesting anything less is suggesting ignoring tools available. Obviously the player needs to react to the group and the encounter but consider we basically have:
dps says I don't want to use some of my abilities. Response: "wtf you suck, use everything you have"
tanks says tanks should use all their abilities: "wtf no, you should only use part of your kit or you're some damn dirty elitist."

So yeah it's not unreasonable to say people are suggesting you just stay in tank stance and spam your enmity combo considering it's insult worth to try to perform well for a party as a tank using your full kit.

PLD aggro gen is great in 60+ Flash and Total eclipse spam =) and the usual aggro builder for the solo trash mobs. Not had much issues and our levelling Samurai as been punch 26k Crits at that, never think I am DPS class when I am in a dungeon I there to solely tank unless the boss is at 1-3% and the dps have hit the dust due to not adjusting

What it boils down to for is that I am going to use every tool at my disposal to maximize my personal output and help the group as a whole. I'm not one to try and tank Susano Ex in Sword Oath, but bet your ass I do one or two RoH rotations on the pull and off to DPS rotation I go. The only other time you'll see me use RoH again in that fight is on tank swaps to solidify aggro if shirk isn't being used. The rest of the time it's my DoT combo when needed, holy spirit spam, and RA combo.

I know it's not a ton of damage, but to me it's awesome seeing that 7k+ holy spirit crit smacking mobs right in the face. It adds another dimension to the usual meat shield, hold threat next to zero damage tank mentality of other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Crankeh

What it boils down to for is that I am going to use every tool at my disposal to maximize my personal output and help the group as a whole

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This 100%.

If you choose to not use your entire kit, that's fine. But trying to convince others why they should is not going to go well when your entire argument is based on "the job is called Tank so that's what you do".

And finally, nobody is calling for tanks to have damage on par with DPS jobs and if they are, they're stupid.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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It's because the way that you want to tank is to do less dps for the exact same survivability if a tank doing damage
And yes you are bad if your sitting in grit. It's a fact not a matter of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Excuse me you filthy peasant DPS player, I am the hero here! Only I can survive that foe. Go stick it with your pointy toys while I keep it occupied and don't forget to thank me for saving your sorry ass. and the healer for saving mine

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That's why the Offtank is the first man benched in farmable content to make room for... what, exactly? Another DPS!

Susano, Lakshimi, and all 4 of the Omega Normals can all be done with a single tank, making the offtank role worthless, and having it shifted away for more DPS slots in farm content.

Sure is a fulfilling role, I always feel super valuable whenever I play it.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

That's why the Offtank is the first man benched in farmable content to make room for... what, exactly? Another DPS!

Susano, Lakshimi, and all 4 of the Omega Normals can all be done with a single tank, making the offtank role worthless, and having it shifted away for more DPS slots in farm content.

Sure is a fulfilling role, I always feel super valuable whenever I play it.

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I mean to be fair that's all up to player skill. There is a really really really good. Have that everyone I hop a pug I'm going to be out dosing at least 1 dps if not more. Having a dps in favor of another tank is irrelevant and in almost every case a worae decesion that takinh 2 good tanks be ause then they can swap around and optimize dps ehich will be more effective than one tank doing less damage to make up for it especially since the vast majority of dps in this hame suck at doing damage.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

And yes you are bad if your sitting in grit. It's a fact not a matter of opinion.

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a player how dont use all they tool kit is bad, a player how choose stay in tank stance are not, they are helping they party even is not meta with how they team are in comfort and that helps much more as you think, not everyone like speedrun everything.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

I mean to be fair that's all up to player skill. There is a really really really good. Have that everyone I hop a pug I'm going to be out dosing at least 1 dps if not more. Having a dps in favor of another tank is irrelevant and in almost every case a worse decision that taking 2 good tanks be cause then they can swap around and optimize dps which will be more effective than one tank doing less damage to make up for it especially since the vast majority of dps in this game suck at doing damage.

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(made a few corrections for you, BTW)

Back in Heavensward, I was a Warrior main for the first year of the expansion. I would play with a regular group of friends that were pretty solid at the game. Nothing amazing, we're not crushing savage or anything like that, but we could farm EX primals pretty consistently. Back then, the best way we'd optimize most primal fights would be to figure out how fastest to get me off Warrior and onto Monk, or Dragoon.

I'll admit that I walked into SB as a DPS player that was looking to be impressed by my ex-main role, and be won back to it. I left because it was boring, felt bad to play at a high level, and simply felt like I was there out of an arbitrary necessity as opposed to any actual value or merit that I brought to the team. I had high hopes that with two new DPS roles coming in, and SE promising that "We'll do better balance this time guys, honest!" that I would be ready to dive back in... Needless to say, they basically failed on all accounts.

The OT position (my old jam) is actually more worthless than ever, since you can just brute force tank through Susano and Exdeath, and any DPS can survive the OT mechanic cleave in Lakshimi even without shields. I wonder if any fight outside of Savage will ever actually make the existence of 2 tanks mandatory again. I kinda doubt it, it's been a long time.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

(made a few corrections for you,

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I can see why you would think so if your playing the player created "OT" role. That would get boring, but the whole MY and OT thing is silly and counter productive. Forcing swaps and sharing the responsibilities of tanking is where your going to find the most fun the most tank dps and the easiest time possible for your healers opening up more healer dps. My thing is yes you can solo tank but why else you? You were lowering your only tanks dps and in turn lowering your healers dps because they are having to heal more. And my argument really goes back to player skill, it doesn't matter if you have 5 dps if your dps isn't good then you are better off with the 2 tanks.
Oh and thanks for the edit, my phones auto correct sucks.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

I can see why you would think so if your playing the player created "OT" role. That would get boring, but the whole MY and OT thing is silly and counter productive. Forcing swaps and sharing the responsibilities of tanking is where your going to find the most fun the most tank dps and the easiest time possible for your healers opening up more healer dps. My thing is yes you can solo tank but why else you? You were lowering your only tanks dps and in turn lowering your healers dps because they are having to heal more. And my argument really goes back to player skill, it doesn't matter if you have 5 dps if your dps isn't good then you are better off with the 2 tanks.
Oh and thanks for the edit, my phones auto correct sucks.

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I'm totally able to understand that, and there's definitely value in the interplay between the two tanks. But as somebody who's tanked pretty much all the major content in this game I've just kinda... gotten fed up with it. The amount of 'tank and healer DPS' that having a second tank adds in solo-tankable fights is actually dramatically overstated, since most of the fights in this game are so straightforward and scripted that the healers in my group basically didn't see a dip at all in their own damage output, and the only real thing that it forces the other tank to do in the Stormblood era is go without Shirk.

Doing A11S (or all of Creator savage, actually) as a Warrior was probably the most hollow experience I've ever had with this game. I exist to soak a tank buster with the MT, grab 3 adds, and run to the other side of the map once. Twice if DPS sucks. All this while the DRK basically never spends any time in grit, and requires zero dedicated healer attention because the only damage in that entire fight is either Laser X sword, or raidwide. For about 95% of the fight I'm just a DPS that's less useful than a DPS. I did this fight as a Warrior, since it was mandatory for like 1 or 2 parts, but the root of the issue remains the same.

Sure, having a 2nd tank does matter in most content. It's mandatory in the highest difficulties, but it doesn't change the fact that it's simply unfulfilling, not to mention thankless.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

And yes you are bad if your sitting in grit. It's a fact not a matter of opinion.

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I can only assume people talking about dropping tank stance in EX encounters have been doing it with static groups, whose dps never make mistakes and thus have healers ready to get you back to 100%. But then, how bad would those DPS have to be that you wouldn't lose aggro by staying in dps stance throughout?

Or would you spam your aggro combo while in dps stance in perpetuity.
In which case, isn't it better to be in tank stance and instead use the dps rotation? Without losing any enmity? Would also let your healers dps (which I'm sure can pull in far greater numbers).


I've tried and I really don't understand how any one tank can maintain a dps rotation, while in dps stance, and not lose aggro to a competent team.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

How to solve DPS queues for dummies.

Castrate the tank community and enforce poor play/an outdated playstyle/an unrewarding design that only appeals to an even minor minority in the already small tank population.

Excuse me you filthy peasant tank player, I am the hero here! Only MY damage should matter. You should be the good little dog you are and sit there with your shield up so I can have fun being the great hero. Oh but healers are cool. Tanks should be tanking as well so that HEALers can DPS. Ecks Dee.

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Did you just assume my tank class uses a shield?