REQUEST: Please change PVP duty incentive

It does not need to be based on team placement, but there does need to be a basic performance threshold to acquire your EXP, similar to FATEs.

Honestly I think just having the exp gain being based on placement is just the simplest solution and I have my doubts that it'll kill queue times half as much as some are suggesting. The pvp queues have been short ever since garo and the freelancer option happened and every aspect of garo's rewards were affected by placement (progress towards mounts only when you win; more wolf marks to buy gear with when you win).

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This suggestion would effectively eliminate any incentive to do Frontline. Ever. Think carefully before you ask for changes you may regret.

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The hyperbole is strong with this one.

Before 4.0, on Primal, queues for Frontlines would pop pretty frequently every night (from 6pm (CST) onward). Granted, it might have been largely because of the Garo rewards. But let's face it, Garo rewards require you to W.I.N - you get nothing if you lose. Now, you are still rewarded (with exp) even when you lose, so I highly doubt that OP's implementation will "eliminate any incentive to do Frontline. Ever."

Isn't it better to check team contribution? If you have less than X points, you get no experience, cause you probably did nothing the whole match

Just check the average amount of points players have in the whole match so you can come up with a number where people have to play at least most of the match to get the reward

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Originally Posted by HELLruler

Isn't it better to check team contribution? If you have less than X points, you get no experience, cause you probably did nothing the whole match

Just check the average amount of points players have in the whole match so you can come up with a number where people have to play at least most of the match to get the reward

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What points? There is no stat collected in Frontlines right now that fits a "score" definition.

Having to compete for score in PVP would cripple a lot of strategic plays and make newbie melee players even more desperate to feed the enemy by throwing themselves headfirst into dumb situations. The jobs are also completely unbalanced for it; WHM will always smoke SCH on healing done even if it was unnecessary, buffs don't mean anything and WHM is already stressful trying to get the finicky lilies to pop properly. Sometimes clinching a kill or slowing a runner is better than healing too, in terms of aiming for a team victory rather than trying to beat the scoreboard. Some jobs are optimised for high damage on ice. Nobody gets points for crowd control even though it wins matches. Why not reward actual success with your team?!

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Originally Posted by Serilda

The grand company argument hasn't really meant anything since they added freelancer, though. The people who lose over and over will blame all kinds of things - and for sure, building a partial premade might help - but one of the things I never see in complaints about win rates is an analysis of why an individual might be part of the problem themselves instead of an elite PVPer perpetually hamstrung by a failing grand company (most of which will be made up of freelancers anyway).

Personally, I'm ok with them keeping exp as-is so long as they add some kind of incentive for winning beyond 'slightly faster gil from desynthesis', which is about as unexciting as it comes, and the mounts/gear everyone already earned months/years ago at this point.

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I think with the large scale of the BGs individuals aren't terribly important and having one really good or really bad player on your team isn't going to make much of a difference, so wins or losses comes down more to the average skill of the teams relative to each other, rather than single individuals managing to win or lose the match for their team, which is definitely a thing in many WoW BGs, which are generally much smaller in scale (10 v 10 or 15 v 15, as opposed to 24 v 24 v 24). Indeed, the two large WoW BGs–Alterac Valley and Isle of Conquest–are 40 v 40 and once more you really lose any ability to carry the day as an individual. Being better still helps, but you are much more dependent on your team than in the smaller ones, as no matter how good you are, you aren't going to solo 20 people. Perhaps the one exception in either case is if you can successfully herd the cats to victory through competent leadership.

Personally, I'm not very good at PVP in this game and I was only ever mediocre in WoW (in terms of competitive PVP), but as long as I kind of stay with my group and go after objectives or otherwise do helpful things, it seems really unlikely that my skill or lack thereof is going to override the contributions of the skill of the other 23 people on my team or the other 48 people on the opposing teams.

If this happens, I have concerns about how the community would react...

Less playing...
People being more 'hardcore competetive' during games...
I can just imagine people raging about 'bad players' in their team/alliance in an unsportsman like manner.


I'm not sure I see as many possible positives as possible negatives...

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

What points? There is no stat collected in Frontlines right now that fits a "score" definition.

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HP cured, damage done to players/ice(shatter), assists for personnal contribution. Score made by memolith (seals rock), ice, base, taken/lost by kills as a group.
Look at the window that pop at the end of the match, they are already here.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

I can just imagine people raging about 'bad players' in their team/alliance in an unsportsman like manner.

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That exist since frontline was released.

It should all be based solely on how much each individual contributes. If you do damage/heal/take damage/damage ice, etc. you should get XP. If you AFK at the base, you get nothing.

Literally had some trash earlier stand at the base the entire time doing NOTHING, and proceeded to tell me if I vote dismiss it was against TOS because they were "defending the base."

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

Yeah, how about no.

The problem is that not all Grand Companies are created equal. You'd expect a roughly 33% win rate for each grand company but, for some reason, that isn't how it shakes out in reality.

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The DF can put you into a random GC. RNG make everything equal again, if enough people use this option.

I just did a PvP where 3 people in my alliance ran past the base that was under attack and ignored it. Of course we lost the base as apparently they were too important to deal with the little details like that. If I'm then to be punished further by getting less xp, then I'll simply stop doing PvP. No doubt many others will as well.

SE have managed to breathe life back into PvP. Your suggestion is a good way to kill it again. As less people do PvP because of the XP issue the waiting time goes up. With the waiting time going up it will put off even those who weren't *too* fussed by XP, but can't be bothered to wait around.

Here is the sum of the objections to my post:

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"Frontline is easy mode experience with no consequences. Everyone wants easy mode with no consequences. If you make Frontline into an actual game with consequences, no one will play it."

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Seriously? THAT'S a valid argument for this gaming community? You all find that acceptable? Seriously???

:confused:

If you based EXP on win/loss, I assure you, the only thing that would happen is server/world/DC weekly win/loss schedules....first week of every month, adders are allowed to win, second week, flames, etc etc etc, and fourth week would be free for alls.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

Here is the sum of the objections to my post:



Seriously? THAT'S a valid argument for this gaming community? You all find that acceptable? Seriously???

:confused:

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The entire game offers up an "easy mode experience". FATES, POTD, Dungeons are all easy. The difference here is that the queue times aren't balls to the wall stupid for DPS.

You still have consequences in the form of getting less Wolf Marks for finishing 2nd or 3rd (even then they come thick and fast anyway).

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Originally Posted by Sylvaneste

If you based EXP on win/loss, I assure you, the only thing that would happen is server/world/DC weekly win/loss schedules....first week of every month, adders are allowed to win, second week, flames, etc etc etc, and fourth week would be free for alls.

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That's not an argument. That's speculation. And in any case, not a valid justification.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

The entire game offers up an "easy mode experience". FATES, POTD, Dungeons are all easy. The difference here is that the queue times aren't balls to the wall stupid for DPS. You still have consequences in the form of getting less Wolf Marks for finishing 2nd or 3rd (even then they come thick and fast anyway).

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You get the same experience whether you win or lose. Whether you take objectives or ride around the map in circles. That's the very definition of easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Sylvaneste

If you based EXP on win/loss, I assure you, the only thing that would happen is server/world/DC weekly win/loss schedules....first week of every month, adders are allowed to win, second week, flames, etc etc etc, and fourth week would be free for alls.

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Be careful what you wish for; patch notes are up:

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The following adjustments and changes have been made to PvP encounters:

Class/Job EXP gained from participating in PvP encounters has been adjusted to take match durations into account.
Victories and losses will now award different amounts of EXP.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

You get the same experience whether you win or lose. Whether you take objectives or ride around the map in circles. That's the very definition of easy mode.

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Personally, I get a reward from doing well. Knowing my actions have helped. If anything the problem is that people don't care enough to kick the people who are afk'ng, or hiding on another part of the map. Even when they get pointed out they rarely get kicked. This is for the community to sort out, not for any nerfs to be implemented, which will once again kill PvP.

Edit: aaand now I can't be bothered with PvP after hearing the patch notes.

The following adjustments and changes have been made to PvP encounters:

Class/Job EXP gained from participating in PvP encounters has been adjusted to take match durations into account.
Victories and losses will now award different amounts of EXP.

Welp, there you go....you have what you wished for......guess pvp q's just got longer......as most will go back to burning potd.

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Originally Posted by Sylvaneste

The following adjustments and changes have been made to PvP encounters:

Class/Job EXP gained from participating in PvP encounters has been adjusted to take match durations into account.
Victories and losses will now award different amounts of EXP.

Welp, there you go....you have what you wished for......guess pvp q's just got longer......as most will go back to burning potd.

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Excited beyond belief. People will FINALLY have to actually try.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Personally, I get a reward from doing well. Knowing my actions have helped. If anything the problem is that people don't care enough to kick the people who are afk'ng, or hiding on another part of the map. Even when they get pointed out they rarely get kicked. This is for the community to sort out, not for any nerfs to be implemented, which will once again kill PvP.

Edit: aaand now I can't be bothered with PvP after hearing the patch notes.

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What happened to "I get a reward from doing well" (etc etc)? Good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

Be careful what you wish for; patch notes are up:

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Link to the patch notes?

Nevermind, I see them now.

The following adjustments and changes have been made to PvP encounters:
Class/Job EXP gained from participating in PvP encounters has been adjusted to take match durations into account.
Victories and losses will now award different amounts of EXP.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Excited beyond belief. People will FINALLY have to actually try.

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You underestimate leeches. They will still have to do nothing to gain a reward, unless they straight dumpster XP for the losing teams, which will just end Frontline queues actually popping. Which would be unfortunate, I was actually beginning to enjoy it, except Shatter.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

What happened to "I get a reward from doing well" (etc etc)? Good stuff.

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The xp was also a reward. Now I'm going to be punished because some people still won't try, but will happily accept 3rd place, I'd rather run a dungeon. Wolf Marks are worthless to me. I make an effort when doing content, even if it's badly. I'm not going to support me getting slower xp because others can't be bothered. The lazy players will still continue, just takes them longer to level up.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Excited beyond belief. People will FINALLY have to actually try.

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If people have to choose between trying their hardest for a chance at an appropriate reward, or running through content while half-asleep, which do you actually think they'll pick? I can even see this hurting match quality as people will just go AFK or feed when it's apparent that the group they're matched with won't win.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Excited beyond belief. People will FINALLY have to actually try.

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Free XP is free XP. Nerfed free XP is still free XP. If people are just leeching and are quasi-afk, nerfing the XP isn't going to be an incentive to stop leeching. After all, they aren't focusing on playing the game when they do it, so it's no real loss to them. Who it does hurt is the people who were already trying and actually playing. The only way to stop leechers without specifically targeting them with repercussions is to nerf the XP into the ground so that it's not even worth the negligible effort it takes to queue and tap a key every couple of minutes or set up a keyboard macro or whatever.

I really hope this change is in the form of buffing wins and not nerfing losses.

WELL I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY WITH YOUR QUEUE TIMES.

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...691b3fadfb35e5

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Victories and losses will now award different amounts of EXP.

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EDIT: If they just buff the experience for winning, then never mind.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

WELL I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY.

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...691b3fadfb35e5

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Why aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

Why aren't you?

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Because this might affect queue times? If they nerf the experience for losing people would just go back to PoTD.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Because this might affect queue times? If they nerf the experience for losing people would just go back to PoTD.

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I posted this in another thread but I'll add it here. I'm doubtful we'll see large increases in queue times, yes some will go back to POTD/fates/etc. but I'm ok with that. With the Garo event still on-going, and with an influx in new players, queues might remain relatively low as they start trying for their mounts/titles/dyable gear sets before the event comes to an end.

Even returning players who never finished are likely still queuing up to complete those achievements.

Either way, thank you SE for making this much needed change.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

Why aren't you?

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Because it may cause too many people to stop PvPing and make the Frontline Queue say more than 30m again. Thus make leveling a DPS class even more of a pain which to me is a huge negative and I enjoy PvP. It felt great being able to have a bit of fun while efficiently leveling.

I just hope I won't end up regretting bit being a bit more aggressive in leveling my DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Because it may cause too many people to stop PvPing and make the Frontline Queue say more than 30m again.

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Ok, let's be real here. The frontlines queue has not been more than 30 minutes since the introduction of Garo and the Freelancer mode. I highly doubt that's going to drastically shift. The most I've seen is 10 mins. (prior to Stormblood launch); unless you're queuing at the ass crack of the middle of the night then they get longer.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Because it may cause too many people to stop PvPing and make the Frontline Queue say more than 30m again. Thus make leveling a DPS class even more of a pain which to me is a huge negative and I enjoy PvP. It felt great being able to have a bit of fun while efficiently leveling.

I just hope I won't end up regretting bit being a bit more aggressive in leveling my DPS classes.

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I mean queue times might be a smidge longer, but it's unlikely that it'll be that bad honestly. PVP queue times didn't suddenly become good when the expansion let pvp give exp. They've been okay for a long while now, when the only rewards to grab were affected by how often you won.

Bold prediction: pvp queue times will probably still be around 5 mins or less ( at least after the omega story rush) as dungeon queue times are still terrible and some people rather do pvp than potd for exp as long as the exp is somewhat decent.

Why does SE always feel the need to punish all players instead of those that are misusing the system? Thank you all you AFK players! Even if I do everything I could and lose because of the rest of the team I will now be punished with less exp too..its not like I needed more runs anyway since I want the mounts where I needed a victory..at least before the patch a loss did not feel that bad thanks to the exp...well time to move more towards Feast where I have at least a much bigger chance to win..

Also if people are saying that we should not need such an incentive to play PVP..why dont we take all the prices away and see how many people would still PVP..

PvP should never have been the best way to level.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

PvP should never have been the best way to level.

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Why should it be any worse than grinding FATES, or PotD, or dungeons? They're all means to the same end for most people, and the ability to have variety while leveling and/or gearing is never bad. Personally the thought of even setting foot in PotD again kinda makes me want to vomit blood, so I jumped at an alternate method to level. And now, depending on how drastic this change to xp ends up being, we may end up losing one of those alternate methods of leveling. If the bottom-end xp ends up dumpstered, most people who just want xp, even the ones who actively participate, won't bother, because it's no longer worth the time investment.

XP from Frontline should be flatlined, as it was, and bonus XP should be granted at the end of the match based on personal merit. Damage done, damage healed, kills, assists, contribution to breaking the ice, whatever is relevant to the match itself. A blanket punishment to the losing team(s) because they happened to roulette the freelancer leech squad that match is not an acceptable change. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, punishing the many for the actions of the few is never a healthy method of problem solving, it just causes resentment to fester.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

PvP should never have been the best way to level.

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The best? Not necessarily but at least good enough that doing it would not be a waste of time when you compare it to other stuff. I am not a dungeon fan and as a DD I already have enough waiting time..so seeing the exp in PVP was a nice change. (I used PVP before that for getting the mounts)

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Originally Posted by Korihu

PvP should never have been the best way to level.

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It's only the best for DPS since they messed up DPS queue times for dungeons. Dungeons are still quicker for Tank/Healer.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Why does SE always feel the need to punish all players instead of those that are misusing the system? Thank you all you AFK players! Even if I do everything I could and lose because of the rest of the team I will now be punished with less exp too..its not like I needed more runs anyway since I want the mounts where I needed a victory..at least before the patch a loss did not feel that bad thanks to the exp...well time to move more towards Feast where I have at least a much bigger chance to win..

Also if people are saying that we should not need such an incentive to play PVP..why dont we take all the prices away and see how many people would still PVP..

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AFK players are part of the problem, but so are the non-AFKers who threw a shitfit at the thought of levelers in their BGs and generalized them all as AFKers, like OP did when he decided to claim that I proved his point by openly stating that I was doing BGs to level as though that necessarily means I'm AFKing them. When given that sort of histrionic feedback, companies seem to respond.

Oh well, guess I won't be finishing my Garo stuff anytime soon. Losing only gives 2/3 the XP of what was given before, which is honestly pretty terrible.