Can Accuracy and Parry be removed already?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

replace acc with double attack :3 , is like Duality skill of nin but passive % chance to proc ....and let it crit FFS

imagine if jump crit and proc double attack , doble jump crit , or double fell cleave crit ....what about deathflare double crit? :o

i loved double attack (Triple attack) on FFXI , haste too sadly S.Speed is a poor replacement.

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And now you know why Double Attack ONLY affected auto-attacks... lol it is a balance nightmare otherwise.

I think DPS/Attack Speed/Double Attack need to come back for auto attacks to make them more significant to the game. Auto Attacking is currently a joke; I wonder why they even have it in the game honestly.

Remove autoattacks and you suddenly now have so much less lag in the game because its just an extra thing to process that the game really does not use much of; then just increase potency.



However; reading these comments I really don't know about the community. It sounds like rather then thinking logically they think RNG+Luck suddenly adds a layer of depth to the game that suddenly makes it super fun to play when it really doesn't. The game needs meaningful secondaries that actually make you think and want to build your character around. Not just "Oh; if you don't have this you can't even hit."

Every MMO has accuracy! Well; lets just say that WoW phased it out for a reason and I don't even like that game but they have good developers. It adds literally no depth to the game and its just an artificial ceiling you hit on the way up. It adds no fun; no variety; in fact it KILLS variety and forces people to build around it offering them no choice in anything else. Its simply an eyesore and needs to go.

Its especially punishing in FFXIV when it ruins your combos; not many MMOs use a combo system or perfect rotations like FFXIV does.

Accuracy could become useful...

If they made a mob that your couldn't reach ACC cap on. But had lower HP.
Say with current patch gear you could only get to 99% ACC on the mob.
I think that would be great it would be a game changer in the usefulness of ACC.

Right now it's I am above ACC cap for current content I get 100% hit rate.

Sadly Parry does matter along with all other RNG stats, Just harder to tell how much.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Coming right up!

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Can't wait to try it when I get home, the best part is everyone asks me, "Where do you get these recipes?", "A Paladin told me" xD #FFXIV

Your contributions always make my day.

Oops that was meant for Torunya to be quoted with. Oh well!

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Ok, go ahead and remove every secondary you currently have equipped. I know you can't but just think about this: the current weights have secondaries between 10-25% the weight of primary stat. If you were to remove all your secondaries, you would be dealing in the range of at least 30% less damage, likely 40-50% less. Half your damage is a joke?

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I can't talk to Nektulos' stats, but at least in my case, using Dervy's stat weights, removing every single point of secondary stats that I have would reduce my damage by a little under 14%.

But, as you say, you can't actually remove secondary stats. The closest approximation we have would be the difference between having all your worst possible secondaries and all your best possible secondaries.

Let's take an i240 warrior (i245 weapon) as an example. If you select items with the worst possible secondaries in every case (i.e. prioritizing parry > accuracy > skill speed > determination > critical hit), and meld them accordingly, you end up with the following total secondaries:

Parry: 766
Acc: 967
Crit: 690
Det: 369
SkSp: 453

Obviously this is a ridiculous amount of accuracy (over 240 more than is necessary to hit anything that actually exists in game at the moment), but let's set that aside for the moment. Again, using Dervy's weights, this setup comes to a total of 4690.

Now, let's take the best possible secondaries in every case (i.e. accuracy to cap only > critical hit > determination > skill speed > parry), and meld accordingly. That gives us the following total secondaries:

Parry: 390
Acc: 723
Crit: 814
Det: 718
SkSp: 588

The total for this setup is 4879.

That's only a 4% swing when going from an unrealistically poor setup, with a crazy amount of excess accuracy, to the best possible setup.

If that's not a clear indication of how irrelevant secondary stats are, I'm not sure what else would be.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Haste is a spell, not a stat in Final Fantasy. I do see what you mean, but this would literally be the same thing that we are dealing with right now if not similar if the 2 stats equaled out to be the same numbers all the time.

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Haste was (and still is) a hugely important stat in Final Fantasy XI:

https://cdn.bg-wiki.com/images/b/b5/...escription.png

Almost every piece of equipment has some haste at level 99.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Once I realized I had no chance to miss regardless of what I did, the gameinstantly lost all sense of challenge and threat, and was shortly sold for a pittance. Getting rid of accuracy would do nothing good, except rid the game of whatever challenges it has.

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In what way is equipping enough accuracy to have a 100% hit rate either challenging or threatening?

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Originally Posted by Waryax

I would be happy if they would just add some value to having more accuracy than the minimum to hit the target. I can see the value in accuracy making players have to choose their gear a bit more carefully and having a gear progression.

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This is also a potential solution when it comes to accuracy. You still have a minimum, but the value of accuracy no longer decreases all the way to zero once you're above that cap.

Have accuracy over the cap strip away some of the target's defense, for example, which can be explained as your more accurate attacks being better at hitting the target's weak spots.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually accuracy is rather stupid. You target monsters and you hit the button to attack at point blank. There is no reason to miss a punch yet i miss it anyway. Not to mention casters. If I cast holy on 4 enemies surrounding me, how the hell do 2 of them dodge it while hitting me, not trying to avoid it in anyway?

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I think a little imagination is probably required here. In an actual swordfight, for example, the two combatants aren't just standing there, occasionally swinging their sword with no regard to what the their opponent is doing; they're reacting to what their opponents does, parrying, feinting, moving, etc.

Displaying realistic combat is probably outside the scope of an MMO like FFXIV though.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

That's only a 4% swing when going from an unrealistically poor setup, with a crazy amount of excess accuracy, to the best possible setup.

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I was kinda curious about this, as was the case before level cap increase, the difference between "best" in slot and "worst" in slot was only around 5% difference.

But I'm not quite sure removing all secondaries only amounts to 14% damage. I'll have to do some actual math in a bit to see what I come up with.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

snip

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Bwahaha, this Paladin can indeed cook. xD But just fyi I took my latest recipes from Sally's Baking Addiction, she makes a lot of dangerously delicious stuff.

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Originally Posted by LordNickage

Your contributions always make my day.

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Originally Posted by LordNickage

Oops that was meant for Torunya to be quoted with. Oh well!

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Hahaha, thank you kindly. I didn't start the trend, but I'll do my best not to disappoint!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Accuracy is a stat that takes no skill at all. It just means if you don't have enough you can't hit. There is no challenge involved in this process. Its called "Luck".

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No, hold on, you say this and someone else above called accuracy a 'binary stat'. If your accuracy is below cap, you will still hit, just a bit less often. Of course if your accuracy is well below the accuracy cap, you'll hit much less often and many more combos will be lost. Accuracy is exactly like every other stat in the game that either acts as a modifier on an RNG value, or directly affects a particular aspect of your character.

But, you're saying if you don't have enough you can't hit, and that's not really true in practice. Just by having level appropriate gear and accessories a character will have some accuracy even if it's not that great. As such they can still hit things, but the might miss more often. Of course you can stack accuracy and cap it where you'll never miss, because FFXIV allows Accuracy to cap at 100% chance of hitting, where FFXI apparently capped it at 95% chance.

Either way, there is no such thing as luck, there is just random chance and whatever happens happens.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, hold on, you say this and someone else above called accuracy a 'binary stat'. If your accuracy is below cap, you will still hit, just a bit less often. Of course if your accuracy is well below the accuracy cap, you'll hit much less often and many more combos will be lost. Accuracy is exactly like every other stat in the game that either acts as a modifier on an RNG value, or directly affects a particular aspect of your character.

But, you're saying if you don't have enough you can't hit, and that's not really true in practice. Just by having level appropriate gear and accessories a character will have some accuracy even if it's not that great. As such they can still hit things, but the might miss more often. Of course you can stack accuracy and cap it where you'll never miss, because FFXIV allows Accuracy to cap at 100% chance of hitting, where FFXI apparently capped it at 95% chance.

Either way, there is no such thing as luck, there is just random chance and whatever happens happens.

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luck
lək/Submit
noun
1.
success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.


So basicly; Luck.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

replace acc with double attack :3 , is like Duality skill of nin but passive % chance to proc ....and let it crit FFS

imagine if jump crit and proc double attack , doble jump crit , or double fell cleave crit ....what about deathflare double crit? :o

i loved double attack (Triple attack) on FFXI , haste too sadly S.Speed is a poor replacement.

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issue with this is threat.. OT gets a double FC crit proc on first FC or god forbid on both of there FCs in opener and MT will not be tanking

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I was kinda curious about this, as was the case before level cap increase, the difference between "best" in slot and "worst" in slot was only around 5% difference.

But I'm not quite sure removing all secondaries only amounts to 14% damage. I'll have to do some actual math in a bit to see what I come up with.

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My current stats:

• Physical Weapon Damage: 77
• Strength: 934
• Vitality: 1194
• Critical Hit Rate: 600
• Determination: 654
• Skill Speed: 662

Using Dervy's stat weights for warrior in Deliverance:

77*22.030 + 934*1.0 + 1194*1.0 + 654*0.303 + 600*0.378 + 662*0.277 = 4432.6

Removing secondaries:

77*22.030 + 934*1.0 + 1194*1.0 = 3824.3

3824.3 / 4432.6 = 0.862, or 86.2%

Though I will admit that in practice it would end up being more than that, because that calculation ignores the contribution from accuracy, since it's assuming you'd cap that before doing anything else.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, hold on, you say this and someone else above called accuracy a 'binary stat'. If your accuracy is below cap, you will still hit, just a bit less often. Of course if your accuracy is well below the accuracy cap, you'll hit much less often and many more combos will be lost. Accuracy is exactly like every other stat in the game that either acts as a modifier on an RNG value, or directly affects a particular aspect of your character.

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It's considered a binary stat because, for every class, it's the highest weight stat if you're below the cap and worth absolutely nothing when you're above the cap.

No other stat has that kind of divide. They may change weights, and some do have breakpoints (usually skill/spell speed when they allow you to fit an extra ability/spell within a cooldown), but nothing else goes from being your best stat to your worst stat when you reach a certain value.

I think what needs to happen with Parry is upgrading what Parry actually does.

What Parry does right now: "Affects the rate at which you parry attacks with your weapon. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which you will parry an attack."

What needs to happen to Parry: "Affects the rate and the magnitude in which you parry attacks with your weapon. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which you will parry an attack and the greater the amount of damage you will parry."

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Originally Posted by Ibi

No other stat has that kind of divide. They may change weights, and some do have breakpoints (usually skill/spell speed when they allow you to fit an extra ability/spell within a cooldown), but nothing else goes from being your best stat to your worst stat when you reach a certain value.

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So, instead of offering to remove the stat, why don't we do something about Accuracy after you cap on a target? Not really responding to this comment directly but more like using it as a spring board to spark discussion in a different way.

IE - "you see a hole in your opponent's armour that you try to exploit" and since you have more accuracy, you're more proficient with your weapon and can exploit said weakness. I just used a long winded example to say "The player gains a crit % increase based on how much more accuracy they have over the necessary cap on the target".

Might not necessarily be Crit that increases, but something that gives a bonus to Accuracy once you each that hit threshold required would probably stem a lot of complaints about accuracy. (This has probably been suggested in the past but figured I'd bring it up again anyway)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So, instead of offering to remove the stat, why don't we do something about Accuracy after you cap on a target? Not really responding to this comment directly but more like using it as a spring board to spark discussion in a different way.

IE - "you see a hole in your opponent's armour that you try to exploit" and since you have more accuracy, you're more proficient with your weapon and can exploit said weakness. I just used a long winded example to say "The player gains a crit % increase based on how much more accuracy they have over the necessary cap on the target".

Might not necessarily be Crit that increases, but something that gives a bonus to Accuracy once you each that hit threshold required would probably stem a lot of complaints about accuracy. (This has probably been suggested in the past but figured I'd bring it up again anyway)

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Nice idea, applying the excess accuray to somethi8ng else. In your example it was Crit, so bonus accuracy allows you to do more damage. The problem there is that someone will math it out and say either crit is still better, or Accuracy is the bees knees, stack it to the sky.

What if, instead the increased accuracy applied to Parry? You're so accurate with your weapon that not only can you strike unerringly, but you have the ability to parry more effectively. Or alternately, that extra accuracy makes you more efficient with your strike, and reduces the TP or MP cost of the skill you're using.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

It's considered a binary stat because, for every class, it's the highest weight stat if you're below the cap and worth absolutely nothing when you're above the cap.

No other stat has that kind of divide. They may change weights, and some do have breakpoints (usually skill/spell speed when they allow you to fit an extra ability/spell within a cooldown), but nothing else goes from being your best stat to your worst stat when you reach a certain value.

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TY for the explanation of the term. The OP makes statements saying that in effect you can't hit unless you cap accuracy, which is clearly wrong, and then I see the word binary and I immediately think that someone might be suggesting that Accuracy is an on/oof all or nothing stat. Obviously it's not, and I appreciate your explanation, I don't know that I personally would have called them binary stats, but I understand why that term is used because unlike, say, STR, there is no benefit to exceeding the cap limit.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

77*22.030 + 934*1.0 + 1194*1.0 + 654*0.303 + 600*0.378 + 662*0.277 = 4432.6

Removing secondaries:

77*22.030 + 934*1.0 + 1194*1.0 = 3824.3

3824.3 / 4432.6 = 0.862, or 86.2%

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Well, my math for drg comes up to a little over 10%. I guess weapon damage overshadowing everything throws the "30%" idea out the window.

One thing I did different is subtract the base lv60 stats and just removed weight of secondaries from gear. If I do that with your numbers it's only 8.5% instead of 14%

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

I think what needs to happen with Parry is upgrading what Parry actually does.

What Parry does right now: "Affects the rate at which you parry attacks with your weapon. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which you will parry an attack."

What needs to happen to Parry: "Affects the rate and the magnitude in which you parry attacks with your weapon. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which you will parry an attack and the greater the amount of damage you will parry."

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thats what it used to do and SE thought it was overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

DC universe online went with % based stat increases at the beginning. They ended up having to give enemie attacks an "armor piercing" effect since the defense stats trivialized content. People then complained what's the point of raising stats if the mobs are just gonna armor pierce proportionally anyway.

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Straight up! whats the point of having 23k hp or doing 10k point of damage if it only still take off the same % of a bossed health... the numbers are getting ridiculous, time to re-adjust them, this is gonna end up like wow with 100k dmg hits coming from starting skill...lol lol lol lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well, my math for drg comes up to a little over 10%. I guess weapon damage overshadowing everything throws the "30%" idea out the window.

One thing I did different is subtract the base lv60 stats and just removed weight of secondaries from gear. If I do that with your numbers it's only 8.5% instead of 14%

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That's certainly a better way of looking at it, since you do still have a base amount of the secondaries. In fact, at our current item levels, your base stats still provide more of your secondaries than your equipment does.

Including the base stats, we're looking at:

77*22.030 + 934*1.0 + 1194*1.0 + 218*0.303 + 354*0.378 + 354*0.277 = 4122.2

4122.2 / 4432.6 = 0.930, or 93%

So a 7% drop off if we completely ignore the contribution of secondary stats from equipment.

The general conclusion is pretty clear regardless of the methodology: secondary stats have such a minimal impact that the effect of choosing any one piece of equipment over another is almost negligible.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Nice idea, applying the excess accuray to somethi8ng else. In your example it was Crit, so bonus accuracy allows you to do more damage. The problem there is that someone will math it out and say either crit is still better, or Accuracy is the bees knees, stack it to the sky.

What if, instead the increased accuracy applied to Parry? You're so accurate with your weapon that not only can you strike unerringly, but you have the ability to parry more effectively. Or alternately, that extra accuracy makes you more efficient with your strike, and reduces the TP or MP cost of the skill you're using.

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Yep, I'm not sure which idea would be implemented but having Accuracy do something post cap would most likely reduce the amount of complaints about it.

It's the biggest DPS increase for you until you cap then it... sits there. Make it do something more and it'll shift the opinion of it more positively. Doesn't matter if it adds Crit but stacking Crit stat is better, any additional accuracy will at least be beneficial now which is the important part.