Are there more tanks playing now?

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

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You're forgetting that healer ACC has not changed, while the ACC required for even the new dungeons has skyrocketed. 1 in every 3 Holies now misses, resulting in a huge chunk of lost MP (goes for almost every WHM spell).

It's obvious that these changes are SE's way to put more pressure on DPS jobs to perform...they are taking away some power from tanks and healers to prevent carrying and force DPS to do their job properly. Before 3.2 DPS were only required to do 80% of the party's total DPS while the healer and tanks carried the last 20%. Now it's more like SE is forcing DPS to do what DPS are supposed to do and give them 90% of the party's damage responsibility. Arbitrary numbers, but an example that fits into the larger picture. 3.2 starts the age when DPS need to literally "git gud" because they can't be carried anymore.

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Originally Posted by Velox

You're forgetting that healer ACC has not changed, while the ACC required for even the new dungeons has skyrocketed.

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I mean. You can meld Accuracy. Whether it'll be enough to get a high hit chance on certain Savage turns or not is another thing all together, though.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Seriously considering ditching my tank. Went through a long, slow wipe that I could've very easily recovered from if my life leeching was more than 1.5k... This DPS nerf blows chunks.

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That means your team blew it. Doesn't mean op tank should self heal and solo the fcking rest of it.

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Originally Posted by Ragnorak

So many tanks have left the tanklyfe because of nerfs but im Tank4lyfe theres a reason i main tank and it aint for massive numbers (altho it was nice doing crazy dps). So bye bye is alls i gotta say

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They made the role of MT fun, but OT is just lackluster now.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

They made the role of MT fun, but OT is just lackluster now.

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I agree, MTing A8 was so much fun. I finally was able to use cover (in a lifesaving way), sheltron and divine veil (casting it on myself :D) on voltron while my drk partner would tank the first part. I think they really nailed the mechanics and the dps checks this patch.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Hold up, "Healers can now dps" ? I'm sorry i never had a problem pumping out 500-700 DPS with full STR tanks.
This change honestly. Is just bs, Just baddies crying that they get outdamaged by a tank.

Won't make me stop playing PLD. Still love the job, But holy shiz, Don't pretend like healers couldn't DPS cause of STR tanks. Even with this change with tanks having 20k+ HP Wanna bet more than half of the healers will still fiddle their thumbs waiting to overheal us when we get hit once?

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You're right.

It was easier to heal Str tanks fools, War's and Drk's specifically. They could help heal themselves more effectively! And we healers didn't have any issues DPSing if the tank knew how to use CD's and the Healer knew how to use theirs. If as a Healer, I can run through Shadow flare, Bio, Miasma, Bio 2, Bane, run in, Miasma2 and the tank isn't dead using Str Accessories then there is NO problem here. Then after that, you kick off Clerics, Heal the tank to full, maybe an aldloquium for giggles and more dps time, Switch back into cleric stance and spam Broil. Or you could just overcure all day, you know, whatever floats your boat right?


Off topic:

Ppl might find this interesting... I was doing Antitower today and I was doin my thing on Scholar. All of a sudden I notice Bio and Bio2 are up, But Miasma isn't. so i'm like, "Wtf yo, I'm sure i had cast it" and it kept on happening consistently. So I figured Mby I cut it off by moving too soon? I figured my Spell speed mighta changed cuz Im catching up on some gear for 210. But It wasn't me, i'm like... flat out missing dots. I guess cuz we don't have accuracy on our gear anymore? I know healer DPS isn't Huge or anything and isn't taken into account like tanks isn't. But Like Blitzace is saying... I actually enjoy healing and doing Dots and I actually would be sitting on my thumbs most of the time If I didn't...

I dont have anything against staying in tank stance for pve. But like someone else said, it was fun switching stances to dps here and there... especially to finish off trash mobs with a fell cleave. I dunno. It just felt good you know? I tried a few seal rocks today, and it felt awful. I'm willing to stick around until maybe patch 3.25 or so - when Feast season 1 starts - because SE said they will make class balance changes during 3.21 to 3.25. If they make changes I like then I'll stay, if not I'll either level a dps class or just quit until they make warrior dps viable again.

I could have stomached a 10 percent, or even 15% dps nerf... but 20 in pve and 30 in pvp is way, way too much. It's just too much of a drastic change...

@Keoni

"Sitting on my thumbs" is exactly how I feel as a warrior without dps in seal rock. =/

Could they maybe add some pvp abiltiies or something? Give me something to do when thrill or war and mythril tempest is on cooldown?

Anyway, and you know what? I noticed that I was missing people in seal rock too! I dont think my accuracy went down, did it?

It is interesting that SE didn't consider the PVP implications when doing these balance changes, especially when they introduced a new PVP mode this patch. I don't think PVE changes should be held back because they might affect PVP, but I think that they should've added or changed a PVP specific trait to nullify the difference there.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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They did take it into account. They're just going to be enforcing the trinity inside PVP as well now. They made comments about how in the feast their desired strategy was to have the tank pick up medals and killing the opposing DPS.

New Tank HP + Tank Stance/ Cooldown = Mitigation


Picking up medals will give you a vulnerability down debuff the more you have. The more medals you have the more you drop when you die and the more likely you will be targeted to be killed.

This is a way of forcing players to attack the tank inside PVP if the tank picks up the medals, which they will be able to mitigate the vulnerability down with CD usage.

The problem with this change is Feast doesn't come out for 2 weeks and Seal Rock doesn't have mechanics to make tanks become the focus. The amount of Damage/CC we do in Frontlines is far more important. The nerf to damage inside PVP is in preparation for the feast re-enforcing the Trinity.

It just sucks for players who have been PVPing as tanks this entire time as Heavy defense style DPS to suddenly be forced to abide by the Trinity.

Frontlines PVP balance is going to be all over the place for two weeks.

Feast PVP balance will be much better at least tank wise. (Currently PLD>War>DRK, after feast Prediction will probably depend more on teamwork with the tanks being about equal to each other though DRK will fall behind slightly on CC)

Having come from other mmos, Tanks are meant to be Vit Walls that keep the party from being hit as much as possible. Recently starting a tank before 3.2 because I finely had some time to test them out, I had that mentality in mind. Because thats how I was taught to play a tank. SE has made that into the new focus, and that makes me happy.
As to the PVP issues. Can't say much about that really as I dont pvp in XIV. However previously in mmos as a tank in pvp, they were not these masterful powerhouses. They were the POSs that you couldn't kill and would whittle away at your life while the dps wrecked and the healers healed. If the parties didn't work together it meant for a horrible pvp run.

As a Healer main, having tanks switch to dps stance 85% of the time meant I couldn't spam dps on trash because those I've DF with went "In dps Stance, no CDs you'll have to keep me alive." Ok. I'm a healer; no biggie. But then it started becoming "Who needs CDs?" In any stance. Without the HP to get through a cast or 2 of dps for me because Strength is Life stupidity. I say that because I've been running into more and more tanks since 3.0 that think their job is to dps first, hold Argo second, Save the Fing Healer jumping around their head with 10% life last... who then b**** when healer dies and then party wipes because they are not able to heal themselves enough and the dps drop as well.

So, Vit tanking makes me happy. Either the tank will be stuck in tank stance keeping emnity and allowing me to do my job right, or they'll have to get good at dancing stances with cds. As a tank, I'm looking forward to reaching 60 and not getting b****ed out for being a Vit tank.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It is interesting that SE didn't consider the PVP implications when doing these balance changes, especially when they introduced a new PVP mode this patch. I don't think PVE changes should be held back because they might affect PVP, but I think that they should've added or changed a PVP specific trait to nullify the difference there.

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There is rumours that SE removed that 10% DMG increase trait from tanks, so maybe that is one thing they could use as an tweaking tool in future.

Honestly i'm getting quite sick people saying STR tanks were toxic,bad etc etc.

Give me one valid reason what is the difference between full str VS full vit tank?

If the STR tank sucked, and changed to vit, guess what? he still sucked. Only with more HP.
Now keep in mind, its flat HP. no DMG reduction but less DMG. which results in less-selfheals for lets say the warrior, king of all self heals.

If you can't keep the STR tank alive, Him switching to VIT will not do much, Either the tank sucks or you do. Its that simple.
Yes certain tanks were harder to keep alive due to the fact they didn't use cooldowns or had crappy gear. But that still did not hold me back to DPS, so stop using that as an excuse.
And stop pretending like a tank in VIT is 20x easier to heal and keep up cause thats just bs.

Strictly STR-to-VIT makes very little difference with regards to healing, correct.
However, they also meddled with aggro output on tank stance vs no tank stance. In 3.1 tanks were running full STR without tank stance and managing to still keep aggro; in exchange they were taking gobs of damage and the bad ones wouldn't even use their CDs. In 3.2 you WILL have to be in tank stance more often in order to keep threat, and if you try to run without tank stance full VIT you probably will not keep aggro. Even bad tanks will learn that they need to stay in tank stance more often (bad ones will be in it permanently), and as a result they will take strictly less damage than they did in 3.1 just because they have their tank stances up.
A VIT tank isn't easier than a STR tank to keep alive, but in tank stance it is. SE lowered the skill ceiling, which good tanks are understandably upset about, but also lowered the skill floor and bad tanks will no longer be as much of a burden on the healers.

Just wanna say thanks for the tank changes. I've run all the new content and I enjoy being a solid tank again, for the record I am a PLD. Holding hate has been much easier on me, I have found that the meta has shifted less from helping with dps checks, and more toward surviving big hits.

Having said that, I suggest greater increases to the healing potency of equilibrium, and Inner beast. Though I main Pld and will always stand by it... When I was running warrior, I noticed a drop in self healing power. That is the only change I would make.

Also I would say to ppl upset with dps: please know we're facing harder enemies now with outdated gear and reserve judgement till you have your new gear. Again, very happy with changes :D

Here is what I believe.

A lowering of the skill ceiling is an incredibly stupid move on SE's part. All 3 tanks operated efficiently at high skill levels, and lower skill levels. The only thing Square-Enix managed to do was Piss off all the talented individuals who were able to Mix Dmg in, which, by the way did NOT dwarf a GOOD DPSs output. So lets not fool ourselves here in thinking they were not encroaching on DPS's area of expertise. I don't think it's a good thing to force players as they're currently doing, to operate at only a slightly higher capacity as compared to bad or newer tanks.

Tanks and healers are the only 2 class categories in the game which are effectively losing access to skills as they get into group content, where as DPSs skill-sets expand through positionals and utility.

Is the answer really to dumb down Tanks and Healers? Is it because we're of vital importance and this change is to make us more of a friendly class to play? That's certainly a good excuse, but it's not good enough.

Tanks can operate fine, and did operate fine hiding behind Tank stances 24/7 Regardless of Vit or Str, as do healers who strictly heal. It was the Tanks/Healers fault if they died using Str OR Vit and stance danced incorrectly, not the str/vit/stances themselves. You can't blame Clerics stance for giving you a 20% healing debuff, you're not suppose to heal in it stupid. Why was Str proven so effective as to work at the highest of endgame? Yet you claim it sucked? Clearly Str Tanks are stupid then right? Since they worked so well in highest form of PvE?

Yeah, lets pretend you failed to heal or tank a dungeon and it's because of the Str Tank. How about admit you have room to improve as a player instead of scapegoating.
The only time a Tank ever needed to meet a damage requirement was for the last DPS check In Savage prior to 3.2, One that SE admitted was too god damn high and because of that everyone jumps on the "tanks shouldn't dps boat"

To be frank, Healer and Tank Dmg was never factored into fights (EDIT:this could be misinformed, because I don't have the post or livecast of this, but It was cited on a Limit-Break Radio as a Dev response to a question about Savage and how, calculations are done for fights) yes, that means for Savage as well. Healers and Tanks were just making up for the lower ilevels of the overall group. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. The people complaining wanting Tanks to only tank and Healers only to heal are primarily bad DPS who are being humiliated, and inexperienced tanks/healers who are refusing to learn.

Paladin needed adjustments to make it relevant in Savage sure, but this could have easily been alleviated with potency changes or making innovative changes to existing abilities.

This is how I see it, and you don't have to agree with me, that's fine, I still love you. But I just don't believe in nerfs, there are other ways to go about balancing a game which might be more difficult, but also avoid crap like what's currently happening.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Honestly i'm getting quite sick people saying STR tanks were toxic,bad etc etc.

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Some of them were because they thought that you were automatically a bad tank for wearing Vit acc...and they were very vocal.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

A lowering of the skill ceiling is an incredibly stupid move on SE's part.

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Changing damage calculation is not lowering the skill ceiling, it's only shifting it. Tanks will still maximize their damage, but by how they play, not how many million gils the spent on pentamelded accessories. The issue was more a game design problem. If VIT is the main stat of tanks (As state the only accessorie we can need on), why isn't it our focus when gearing ?

And, judging by the few dungeons/raids I've done in 3.2, bosses hit much much harder so that safety net is welcomed for healers in training.

40k hp or not a tank that cant mitigate is a ded tank. Things hit a lot harder now if you think forcing VIT some how gives the healers a buffer for bad tanks (who cant tank let alone mitigate in the first place) ive got bad news for you. Sephy ex tank buster says hello

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Originally Posted by Ragnorak

40k hp or not a tank that cant mitigate is a ded tank. Things hit a lot harder now if you think forcing VIT some how gives the healers a buffer for bad tanks (who cant tank let alone mitigate in the first place) ive got bad news for you. Sephy ex tank buster says hello

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I agree with you though The increase in HP is needed now.
If referring to meeeee, I've never been against the Vitality change. Just the dmg nerf that came with it. x.x

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Changing damage calculation is not lowering the skill ceiling, it's only shifting it. Tanks will still maximize their damage, but by how they play, not how many million gils the spent on pentamelded accessories. The issue was more a game design problem. If VIT is the main stat of tanks (As state the only accessorie we can need on), why isn't it our focus when gearing ?

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From a pure stat perspective I agree with you.

I also agree it might be better for healers in training too!
Even I have lapses in judgement, or am slow to heal for some reason or another.

How i'm seeing it is,
because of how threat was increased in respective tank stances to offset the decrease in damage, taking off Defiance, Grit and Shield Oath is far less appealing.
This means Tanks aren't utilizing part of their skillset anymore due to the increased monster damage which isn't being mitigated by grit/oath or offset with increased healing potency of Defiance. And the difficulty to now hold threat with Damage/baseline threat combos alone.
Is this bad? I dunno.
I don't believe offensive stances should be assumed full time, but I don't believe they ever were especially with DPSs capabilities keeping them in check. a Tanks primary function will always be to hold the attention of the monster and do the best it can to mitigate the dmg incoming. However I don't believe Offensive stances should be as oppressed as I've seen them be either. I hate to see abilities simply not used due to the fact you're going to lose threat, or it's too taxing on a healer for even brief periods of time w/o checking in with them. I guess if the Offensive s.tances are too offensive then, maybe they should be adjusted to be more "tank" like.

I admit I'm not the best Warrior in the world and it plays second fiddle to my Scholar in terms of gear... But I'm not horrid at the class. I say the ceiling has dropped because chances to stance dance have severely decreased which means 1-3 abilities depending on tank class simply aren't seeing as much use as I believe they should. To the point where some might never use them...
My concern with my War is the same as with my Sch, It bothers me that i'm losing more and more access to skills I enjoy and i'm not being compensated with new healing skills or mitigation tools. I like weaving in more abilities, and SE is taking that weaving out. Now it's almost insulting... "How efficiently can spam Phsyick and Adloquium" and it's like, god damn, Even in terms of right now, with me doing dots I'm slightly bored, but now you honestly feel like I should say goodbye to 7 of my spells on Sch? Really? REALLY? I lose less on War but still... Why not just take out Mug, Dream Within a Dream and Duality? Any other class would lose their god damn minds if their toolkit was being suppressed. Why Don't we just take out Goad, Dream within a Dream and Mug for giggles?


It's not some massive change on tanks specifially. I'm not trying to make it out to be that. Just where the hell does it stop? I just enjoyed warrior specifically because I could dance all over the place.
And I enjoy Sch not only because it's a healer but because I could throw down tons of Dots and Broil Lobster.

I feel like without these options... Well... right now I'm getting annoyed with both classes, I'm missing dots left and right on Sch, and I'm switching out of Defiance far less frequently than before...
I'm sure lots of you would be happy to hear I might quit Sch and War because I don't tank and heal like a lot of people think you should and I understand where you're coming from. I should just grin and bare it, Evolve, all that. But... i like the multifaceted nature of healer and tank, something DPS doesn't exactly have, other than maybe Bard but it's utility doesn't seem to get a lot of use these days... And I think that's where a lot of this angstyness annoying..ness is sorta emanating from.
Idk I'm just not happy with it.

I found Sch such a snoozefest until I began doing dmg between heals. I loved Deliverance so much, It was like... I dunno It felt like tanks were going in an interesting place with the HW Expansion. But now It's just a bummer

I play Warrior and Paladin and all I can say is "damn my back fills so much better because I don't have to carry sorry ass dps anymore thanks SE" ..... LOL I'm kidding .... I do see that my dps is less now but I still have np what so ever in holding aggro on mobs but my question is this....If you what a job to play that puts out the top damage then why in the HELL!!! are you playing a tank???

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Honestly i'm getting quite sick people saying STR tanks were toxic,bad etc etc.

Give me one valid reason what is the difference between full str VS full vit tank?

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in the forum whe have many reports of fending tanks getting kick for the only reason to use fending gear, and many STR tanks being rude with VIT tanks.

difference? in the jobs is easy, the 3 tanks and skills have been designe using fending gear, THE BALANCE himself of the 3 tanks from 3.0 have been designe using fending gear, STR make a huge umbalance making the warriors in a op status where they dps and self heals are absurdly so high, then whe have a xeno running here and there with 7 wars partys killing most of the conten.

in player skill none.

yeah paladins need some love from the begining but the difference between the jobs was not so great with fending gear.

for me, this change is the best that SE do, 1º tanks go to the primary objective, build agro and extra dps later, not extra dps all the time because build agro was so easy with str.

2º makes more hard to stance dancing, stay in dps mode all the time is not fun at all, for some ppl yeah of course but for me make me think and act more fast, not only dps dps dps dps tank buster coming grit+ something out grit dps dps dps dps dps dps dps.

and if whe look the tanks are balance to use fending is a dps buff for us not a nerf, i don't see why we need our tanks dealt only 200-100 less dps vs a brd/mch and have the double defense stads for me thats umbalance, i think whe are good now except for some utility on drk in ot.

I can see why the DPS loss would be a bit annoying to DRK and WAR that rely more on self healing. But if you are annoyed that you aren't approaching a DPS' numbers... Then why are you in the tank role in the first place?

Unless you run as a DPS class, then "high" DPS is a bonus while the main focus of the role is elsewhere. For tanks it is mitigation, positioning, and enmity. If you want to go ham and focus on numbers, roll as a melee DPS. I'm not saying great tanks won't find a way to do both, as they absolutely will, just like all people who excel in their role. That's what makes them great players.

TLDR: if the DPS loss is really upsetting to you, you may enjoy a DPS class more.

The thing is that str tanks feel much more challenge to play an if you do it right the feeling is great, remember that the best tanks clear endgame content with str, if you use proper cds healer will never have a problem at least on my own exp, the problem is that ppl did not want to learn,

healers that did not want to dps but only heal.
Tanks that did not want to dps but just tank.

The jobs were more challenging im never gonna have as much fun as I did.
I got all 3tanks all 3 healers but now is just feel ok...not powerful not rewarding just a punch bag.
im glad pld did got b

All they needed to do was adjust pld dps a little. Instead they nerfed all tanks and decreased war and drk self healing capability. Sorry but the people complaining about well played str tanks are quite frankly just bad players. If you were a dps getting out dpsed by a tank you weren't playing your class very well. If you were a healer that couldn't keep a str tank up that new how to use their cooldowns properly then you're not a good healer. To me this nerf just makes tanking less fun, especially in pvp. This game has always had a tank shortage and nerfing them taking away some of the fun factor of the class is not exactly a good idea.

i play full str spec when the meta demand that, and i don't feel it more challenging or something special, and i was in s3-4, the actual meta make for me the class more challenging because is more hard change betwen tank stances, in fact i don't want grit and ShO oGC, after all the gameplay is still the same, only you dealt less dps and you need to be focus in more thinks now, in 3.0 the agro bar in party list don't exist, now whe need to check it every time, for big dps and burn bugs i have my ninja.

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Originally Posted by Alisane

I can see why the DPS loss would be a bit annoying to DRK and WAR that rely more on self healing. But if you are annoyed that you aren't approaching a DPS' numbers... Then why are you in the tank role in the first place?

Unless you run as a DPS class, then "high" DPS is a bonus while the main focus of the role is elsewhere. For tanks it is mitigation, positioning, and enmity. If you want to go ham and focus on numbers, roll as a melee DPS. I'm not saying great tanks won't find a way to do both, as they absolutely will, just like all people who excel in their role. That's what makes them great players.

TLDR: if the DPS loss is really upsetting to you, you may enjoy a DPS class more.

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Warrior and Dark Knight didn't touch good DPS numbers, only bad DPS. It also really does show.

I did some of the new dungeons before, but because the DPS were so slacking we couldn't do the fight that I could well easily do before because I just can't push the numbers I used to. Self healing went from 1500 to 900-1000...

When I play my healer now though, my favorite tank so far is the Paladin, as long as he knows what clemency is he can keep himself up through so much punishment whilst I focus on DPSing as a healer to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Alisane

I can see why the DPS loss would be a bit annoying to DRK and WAR that rely more on self healing. But if you are annoyed that you aren't approaching a DPS' numbers... Then why are you in the tank role in the first place?

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DPS'ing is obviously not a tanks main role, but it is our secondary role in content to pull as much dps as we can. It is only natural to be upset over the loss of DPS among all tanks, wether it be PVE or PVP. The Vit change was a step in the right direction, but it needs to be adjusted more. I'm going to hold my breath for now, and hope something will be tweaked in the near future, because I feel it can't stay like this for too long.

I don't think I'll be playing my tank anymore. . .STR was never about huge numbers or trying to be a bootleg DPS job, it was about huge aggro for me; I loved seeing the aggro bar on all the mobs and see everyone with a slither to seemingly zero aggro accumulated vs Me. Now everyone has nearly if not half the bar full, while I never end up losing aggro; it irritates me to no end. I liked being overwhelmingly high in aggro so the DPS can just let it all rip and I can still relax.

I think I'll be shifting focus to my NIN, having more fun supporting the Tank with Smoke Screen, ShadeWalker and Goad rather than playing the actual Tank now, I only wish I had known about this before I traded my Zeta for the Axe. . .would have traded it in for the NIN weapon instead. . .sigh

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Originally Posted by CSX

I liked being overwhelmingly high in aggro so the DPS can just let it all rip and I can still relax.

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So, if you wanted to have an easy job spaming 1+2+3 dps combo while not worry about stuff like emnity, then tanking is for sure not for you.

Rigth now, I feel my job as a tank is much mure fun, as I have now more responsability watching for my team´s aggro in a more tactical way, now that my self heals arent OP, I have to micromanage a lot more my HP, and I found myself using a lot more tools like Steel Cyclone, Storm's Path and Unchained that were almost worthless or situational before.

I do regret the loss of DPS, especially for killing stuff faster in open world, but oh well, I will use Monk instead.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Warrior and Dark Knight didn't touch good DPS numbers, only bad DPS. It also really does show.

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Really? See fflogs. WAR/DRK could do 1.2k easily in any fight. PLD could do 1k easily. BUT that is if you KNOW how to do it while TANKING.

Bad tanks be bad tanks, bad dps be bad dps and bad healers be bad healers. You don't get anything challenging done if you are bad. If you are a good healer, you can keep the tank up while both the tank and you DPS. Pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by CSX

it was about huge aggro for me; I loved seeing the aggro bar on all the mobs and see everyone with a slither to seemingly zero aggro accumulated vs Me. Now everyone has nearly if not half the bar full, while I never end up losing aggro; it irritates me to no end. I liked being overwhelmingly high in aggro so the DPS can just let it all

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Really? I much preferred the opposite. A good DPS rides the hate line without actually ripping off you. And me allowing them to get that high (because I play DRK and my hate combo is herpes) was a sign that I was pushing the best DPS I could as well. Nothing depresses me more than when I go into a duty, do a couple PS combos and then go into my DPS rotation and nobody climbs past 1/4 of their aggro meters.

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Originally Posted by Alisane

I can see why the DPS loss would be a bit annoying to DRK and WAR that rely more on self healing. But if you are annoyed that you aren't approaching a DPS' numbers... Then why are you in the tank role in the first place?

Unless you run as a DPS class, then "high" DPS is a bonus while the main focus of the role is elsewhere. For tanks it is mitigation, positioning, and enmity. If you want to go ham and focus on numbers, roll as a melee DPS. I'm not saying great tanks won't find a way to do both, as they absolutely will, just like all people who excel in their role. That's what makes them great players.

TLDR: if the DPS loss is really upsetting to you, you may enjoy a DPS class more.

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Tanks are melee characters. We literally wield melee weapons and wear armor. We gain aggro by ATTACKING the enemy. As a class that builds threat by dealing damage, why tanks care about damage should be obvious. Especially when the healers in this game can out DPS us. Yet I don't see anyone crying about how unfair it is that healers can DPS instead of just focusing purely on healing. Strange how that works.


But then, let's also consider that tanks have it the worst in Duty Finder runs. The absolute worst. It is a complete crapshoot if you will end up with players of other roles who are even semi-competent with their jobs.

I once did what was possibly the slowest dungeon run I ever have had in The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) , with a Bard and Black Mage. Both at least i200. It was blatantly obvious that neither was doing their rotations properly, or using AoE as much as they should have. And we kept wiping on the winged lion because they couldn't burn down the holy orb, of all things.

Do you know what these atrocious players did? They blamed me because of instead of immediately switching to Sword Oath and trying to burn down the orb, I remained in Shield Oath and picked up the adds that spawned and then attacked the orb. I did exactly what the encounter is designed for, and got blamed for not doing what the DPS were supposed to be doing. They thought I should ignore the adds and just hit the orb in Sword Oath, while the adds wailed on them.

After four wipes and getting accused of being a bad tank for tanking instead of DPSing, I just abandoned the party. Massive waste of time because they couldn't play their classes right. I've got a lot of stories like this. Most tanks players do.


So yes, lack of DPS is a thorn in the side of many tanks because so many DPS players completely utterly suck and the tank cannot do much about it as our DPS output is so pitifully low. It's double worse for Paladins because we have zilch AoE ability so every trash pull is four or five times longer if the DPS suck than it would be with a DRK or WAR who at least has the ability to AoE DPS. The PLD has to single target DPS on every enemy which makes things take a lot longer.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Being a few hours in, is it safe to assume that there are more tanks playing now? Just trying to gather information to see if I'll have some queue competition now.

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I am still tanking with a little nin on the side.

Well, I haven't noticed any substantial queue differences for Tank spots since the patch. So, I'm pretty sure the number of Tanks has stayed mostly the same. There might actually be a reduction in tanks in the Raiding scene. I'm getting the impression that, as per normal with new content, a lot of people are intimidated by the mechanics of the fights. That's not really all that surprising, though.

That said, I have noticed one place in the game in which Tanks have started popping up in droves, and I really don't understand why. Lately, ever time I queue for PVP I'm ending up with a party that is full to the brim of Tanks. I don't get it. Tank dmg has gotten nerfed substantially, but suddenly everyone and their dog wants to queue up as Tanks in Seize. I keep having to swap to Dps, of all things. It's kinda making me worry that my preferred queue spot is gonna be over saturated when Feast comes out ...

Otherwise not touching the whole debate with a 10-foot pole...

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Originally Posted by Februs

There might actually be a reduction in tanks in the Raiding scene. I'm getting the impression that, as per normal with new content, a lot of people are intimidated by the mechanics of the fights. That's not really all that surprising, though.

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Going by my experiences running Midas Normal, this seems to be the case so far. 10-15 min queues as a healer, pretty much instant pops as a tank. I was kinda trying to avoid tanking it at first due to A. not knowing the mechanics and B. my tank gear being just above the minimum ilvl (though I'm working on that).

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

But then, let's also consider that tanks have it the worst in Duty Finder runs. The absolute worst. It is a complete crapshoot if you will end up with players of other roles who are even semi-competent with their jobs.

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Healers, actually.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Really? See fflogs. WAR/DRK could do 1.2k easily in any fight. PLD could do 1k easily. BUT that is if you KNOW how to do it while TANKING.

Bad tanks be bad tanks, bad dps be bad dps and bad healers be bad healers. You don't get anything challenging done if you are bad. If you are a good healer, you can keep the tank up while both the tank and you DPS. Pick your poison.

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1,2k isnt even near what good dps pulls.
Not to mention those parses are done by giving the tank all the buffs and letting him stay in dps stance even if it costs raid dps.

As far as I know, or at least on my server, the number of tanks hasn't change at all.

It might be not close to what good dps can do (but MCN...) but you will feel the difference between a clear with tanks pushing 400 dps each and another one with them around 1000. When you are used to pay attention to the phases / spawns % etc it s really an obvious bonus. Anyways as tank once you get enough aggro + know what will hit you soon + know how to mitigate + checked how healers do = i see no reason to try to be proactive dps wise.

2. I dont see how a good tank would need any sacrifice from the team to dps well really. It s possible to put back Grit on for tank busters and cycle your CDs without Grit in order to let your healers dps a lot.
Also you pretty much dont need any buff to have decent dps as tank outside of WARs slashing debuff and your pot in your opener thats it.

People blame DPS tanks saying that it costs a lot to the group but so far what used to hold us back in the progression phases were dead dps hitting the floor for 0 damage and needing raises.

Still maining tank. Still doing 7k fell Cleaves in extreme fights. Health is noticeably higher, my healers are happy. Life is good.