A3S nerfs incoming

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Probably everything will be nerfed. Having content only few people can clear is not $$$healthy$$$ to the game.

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I'd disagree.

Having content that nobody can clear is bad.
Having content intended to be casual that few can clear is bad.
Having content that only a few people can clear is called endgame, and it's the challenge that draws players to it in the first place. If everyone could clear A4S in one lockout or Savage Coil without much effort, those content would be trivialized. Their impact and their effect on the players would be diminished severely. The game needs a challenge to remain healthy. It's only bad if everything is too challenging, or nothing is too challenging. Currently the game is leaning toward the latter and needs to swing back toward the middle.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

I think a lot of people ended up clearing SCoB Savage, at least on Tonberry. Once 2.5 hit and everyone had T13 down and geared up, a lot of people started going for SCoB savage clears. So they might of thought that was the clear rate. However I agree Alex Savage is too difficult and shouldn't be the end-game raid more so an optional extra...quite like SCoB Savage.

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You also have to consider the circumstances...because people are going into SCoB with higher ilvls, or just higher levels in general. Both of that isn;t applicable for alexander savage, and they tackled SCoB after finishing FCoB to have an escalation of sorts (rather than having only SCoB then going into FCoB)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Coil was working fine for story accessibility because they can add echo or tune down mechanics as it gets older. Something like savage is supposed to be hard, and nerfing/changing that goes against its premise. Then again like my previous posts, they've put in savage as the to-go raiding difficulty for the general population, but honestly I'm not sure what they were planning on; they said they wanted savage to be SCoB-savage levels difficult, but are surprised at the low clear rates.

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Then in theory, a three difficulty system means no nerfs would ever need to happen to the content, no? Seems like the better option to me. But regardless, they're not my words, but Yoshida's. I'm not even sure if he listens to our feedback at this point, unless it's about minions of course.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Then in theory, a three difficulty system means no nerfs would ever need to happen to the content, no? Seems like the better option to me. But regardless, they're not my words, but Yoshida's. I'm not even sure if he listens to our feedback at this point, unless it's about minions of course.

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Yeah, seemed like in the beginning of 2.x he was really transparent and listened to everyone and was great. There was a problem it would be addressed. Now its just everything is vague we get no answers, and it really seems like there not paying attention to the player base. Which if a dev does see this im not 100% sure but without us there would be a game correct. Would be good if we started getting more details on things instead of no comment stuff.

I think they are listening to the playerbase. But they're listening to the players that sub for a month and quit, instead of the ones who've been around for a year or more. The content being put out is clear evidence of that.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Then in theory, a three difficulty system means no nerfs would ever need to happen to the content, no? Seems like the better option to me. But regardless, they're not my words, but Yoshida's. I'm not even sure if he listens to our feedback at this point, unless it's about minions of course.

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A three tier difficulty would mean they wouldn't need nerfs at all. Infact it's the template that WoW does, except their stacks of determintaion (echo) buffs are already built into the LFR (duty finder) tier. However, Yoshi himself had said that they can't spare the developmental times for three difficulties per tier, so using the same formula as the binding coils would be the most feasible.

In the end though, everything so far is either not-new or not working as they envisioned (maybe), at least as far as 3.0 and 3.1 is concerned (which is still a problem, esp since 3.0 is an expansion). I acutally considered taking up WoD for a month with my ingame gold to break the pacing a bit, but I've read up on the general census to why it was such a flop; most of the common complaints are actually mirrored to 3.0 and 3.1 in general.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Then in theory, a three difficulty system means no nerfs would ever need to happen to the content, no? Seems like the better option to me. But regardless, they're not my words, but Yoshida's. I'm not even sure if he listens to our feedback at this point, unless it's about minions of course.

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I dont think the playerbase is large enough for three difficulties. Multiple difficulties also have an effect of increasing ilevels by an even greater amount than currently.

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Originally Posted by ArchonCina

I think they are listening to the playerbase. But they're listening to the players that sub for a month and quit, instead of the ones who've been around for a year or more. The content being put out is clear evidence of that.

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Well you should ask why they only sub for one month and then quit.

Remember just because they listen to feedback doesn't mean the have to act upon it. Frankly, if it's anything like some threads on these forums I'm glad they dont act upon all feedback.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

I dont think the playerbase is large enough for three difficulties. Multiple difficulties also have an effect of increasing ilevels by an even greater amount than currently.

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If the intent of a dungeon is to be for the story, why should it have rewards? We're going through HM primals that are done through story mode without any drops other than cards/furnishing.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Well you should ask why they only sub for one month and then quit.

Remember just because they listen to feedback doesn't mean the have to act upon it. Frankly, if it's anything like some threads on these forums I'm glad they dont act upon all feedback.

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The problem is that if you don't have an active sub, you can't post on the forums. Heck, there isn't even a survey to ask why you're canceling a sub. The only feedback they'll really get is from existing players, and the loss of revenue from players who stop playing. Some players give critical feedback because they care about the game and want to keep investing in it. It's on the developer's end to look through those feedbacks and take it for value (especially if it's something that is reoccuring or when numbers relate and speak for it)

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

No, it's not. This game doesn't have the playerbase like WoW has and in my opinion WoW's four difficulties are just too much.

Three bosses every 6 months does not make a raiding game and it never has been a raiding game it's just one of the avenues.

If people can't do savage as it is then those people are not hardcore raiders, 'simples'. The only viable way if SE want more people to raid savage is to make it a little easier, maybe to the level coil was before the nerfs.

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And in doing so, they potentially damage the endgame content further. If even say 30-40% of players could clear A3 Savage, then there is nothing left to challenge them until the next patch. Considering that Alexander Savage was released on July 23rd, and the only comparable content would be Thordan EX. This would equate to over six months of nothing to work towards in terms of "hardcore" content. MMOs require some sort of wall to impose upon players to inevitably challenge them or we're just trading one set of complainers for another.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And in doing so, they potentially damage the endgame content further. If even say 30-40% of players could clear A3 Savage, then there is nothing left to challenge them until the next patch. Considering that Alexander Savage was released on July 23rd, and the only comparable content would be Thordan EX. This would equate to over six months of nothing to work towards in terms of "hardcore" content. MMOs require some sort of wall to impose upon players to inevitably challenge them or we're just trading one set of complainers for another.

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Blizzard don't even have 30-40% participation in their four difficulties. Reading through this thread you'll find that instead of banging their head against a boss for months most people will, or have, just quit either due to them tiring of it or fellow static members. Four months on four bosses is enough to drive anyone to quit.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Normal mode can essentially be considered as filler content since it's shelf life isn't that long beyond the gated gearing process. If they had say, FCoB-tier normal mode and savage mode, the former would still last a bit longer, for both the process of gearing and content for players to tackle, while at the same time, savage still present a challenge without making people burnout if they're attempting it over the course of 4 months (when a month or two is spent on the previous tier).

To ride on what you're asying, savage mode being the only raid tier, and even if people do clear it, all that's let is the gearing process behind it then it becomes exhausted. Content needs to have shelf life, but at the same time it shouldn't be overly inacessible for the general population to tide them over until the next content patch.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And in doing so, they potentially damage the endgame content further. If even say 30-40% of players could clear A3 Savage, then there is nothing left to challenge them until the next patch. Considering that Alexander Savage was released on July 23rd, and the only comparable content would be Thordan EX. This would equate to over six months of nothing to work towards in terms of "hardcore" content. MMOs require some sort of wall to impose upon players to inevitably challenge them or we're just trading one set of complainers for another.

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I think you don't really understand just how few people even do raids.
If 30-40% of the population was even attempting alexander savage it would be something for S-E to be bragging about for having the best attendance of any MMO raid ever

as it stands now i would have a ton more fun just having a farm night for alexander than player A quits because it's no fun then player B quits because A was his friend then going through 3-6 sets of recruits before finding 2 new ones that can handle dps check while doing mechanics and by then player C quits because he's just tired of being stagnant training new recruits then more testing and training to find a competent new guy then player D decides progression isn't going fast enough and server transfers to be one of the recruits of another group going through the same thing and it just goes round and round

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Imagine some of the only worthwhile rewards you could get from Gathering/crafting were only realistically obtainable by a very small percentage of crafters/gatherers; people would rightfully complain. But if there's some worthwhile rewards that aren't as difficult to obtain, most players would probably be okay with that.

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The i170 IS only realistically obtainable by a very small percentage of crafters/gatherers. Out of say, a population of 4000 players on a server, less than 10% will have lv 60 all-crafts. And less than that will have the budget to even consider full-170 gearing.

But the 180 gearing is at least decent, and getting 10 million to craft and meld the 5 accessories + belt (the tier below 170, but max-melded) is not that bad. Then add 2 million per offhand depending on how many crafts they have. This is *after* they tripled the availability of favor mats. Offhands would be 6+ million otherwise. An amount way above most crafters' cash potential.

For the record, if you were to craft every single piece of crafter gear i170, that's 13 per craft, times 8 crafts = 104 pieces. Edit: That's wrong, I counted the accessories and belt 8 times there. Real number would be 62. Right now some pieces that used to cost 5-15 million are at a more reasonable and affordable 1-2 million. Melding each piece to maximum stats (prioritizing CP when possible) while not using V tier materia (cause they're not really available enough anyways) would cost about 3 million per piece, provided CP IV is 150k, Control IV is 300k and Craft IV is about 60k. So average piece price 1.5 million * 62 = 93. Then 62 *3 million = 186. 93+186 = 279 million gil.

279 million gil, just to be ready for what may be in 3.2 or later, ideally you'd be set until 4.0 given the extreme cost. Just not doing the main hands is likely to cut 44 million off that (20 million to craft, 24 to meld), but will take longer (since i180 is time-gated, and main hands take longest). Going all-180 would go up til 2017 if you went all crafts all-gear. And you'd still be short accessories, belt and offhands. Far from accessible for omnicrafters. Okay for specialists who don't have huge funds.

In 2.0-2.5 you needed a tiny fraction of that kind of money to be best-geared. I think I might have spent 6 million to gear and max-meld all crafts in the i55 gear of 2.0.

Edited cause I miscounted.

I wouldn't touch or nerf anything Savage related. It's good to have a challenging battle from time to time

Keep as it is

Nerfing Thordan would be obscene. I'd say clear rates are somewhat on par with where Ravana was around the same time. As for A3/4S, SE is in a tricky position. If they plan on gating the new raids, something has to be done I suppose. Otherwise, a lot of development time and costs would be spent on something maybe 1% of the pop would have access to. Don't get me wrong... I HATE the idea of any nerf (and even Echo), but I can see why SE might be wringing their hands here.

All that being said... the "shelf life" argument goes a looooong way in my book. SE should just commit to it's difficulty and allow gear progression to act as a "nerf". Keep the raids relevant for way into the future. People will eventually get to the second tier. Hell... T9 kinda acted this way for the longest time.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

All that being said... the "shelf life" argument goes a looooong way in my book. SE should just commit to it's difficulty and allow gear progression to act as a "nerf". Keep the raids relevant for way into the future. People will eventually get to the second tier. Hell... T9 kinda acted this way for the longest time.

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Its both shelf life and accessibility. What's the point of having diamonds last forever if no one can ever afford it?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Its both shelf life and accessibility. What's the point of having diamonds last forever if no one can ever afford it?

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Again... people thought the same thing about T9. Now everyone and their mother has cleared it. May take ages, but eventually everything goes down. Gear progression will see to that.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Again... people thought the same thing about T9. Now everyone and their mother has cleared it.

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Neither me nor my mother has cleared it yet.

Just...wanted to point that out.

They really nerfing Thordan? Come on :(

After reading the blurb, this isn't an official statement but more like his opinion..

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Yoshi-P has stated as well that Arm of the Father Savage (A3s) has had disappointingly few clears, perhaps meaning we can expect a nerf of some sort. Personally, I think all of Alexander savage and The Minstrel’s Ballad: Thordan’s Reign (Thordan EX) will see some kind of nerf, because Yoshi-P has stated before he wants the game to be more accessible to casual players.

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"Perhaps"... "Personally, I think"...

All opinion no fact. Sigh of relief maybe lol

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Again... people thought the same thing about T9. Now everyone and their mother has cleared it. May take ages, but eventually everything goes down. Gear progression will see to that.

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The circumstances of T9 is different than Alexander savage though, at least that's what I think the developers wanted. At the time of T9 you also have BCoB, and that'd only see 2 patch cycles before that got tuned down (with 3 months for each cycle).

Savage on the other hand, is supposed to be hard, but at the same time, it's become the only raid content at hand to tide over for two patch cycles (one of the cycle being 5 months). You don't see a mass exodus of players with SCoB or FCoB, but that's happening with Alexander Savage. Something behind it is different and it's whats causing statics to fall apart, mass player xfers to the super servers, and leaving smaller servers to die.

I am looking forward to a nerf. I had my static and even my FC break because it was so over the top hard.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You don't see a mass exodus of players with SCoB or FCoB, but that's happening with Alexander Savage. Something behind it is different and it's whats causing statics to fall apart, mass player xfers to the super servers, and leaving smaller servers to die.

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Probably because it was propped up by echo. Story and savage was supposed to mean this wasn't needed but I'll not get into that again.

I think you suffer from raider mentality.

Although the best gear is available via raiding most players dont raid and have no intention to raid. It might seem like most players raid but in reality most dont, even the story mode. If servers fail it's usually because people always go to the high pop server so there's not as many new players going onto a server.

The way SE babysits scrubs shows me a door out of this game :p.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Probably because it was propped up by echo. Story and savage was supposed to mean this wasn't needed but I'll not get into that again.

I think you suffer from raider mentality.

Although the best gear is available via raiding most players dont raid and have no intention to raid. It might seem like most players raid but in reality most dont, even the story mode. If servers fail it's usually because people always go to the high pop server so there's not as many new players going onto a server.

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What exactly is that? o.O

I was very much into raiding for the first 3 months.. The last 3? Have barely played at all. Technically I shouldn't even be playing now since I cancelled my sub already, but have 40 some odd days remaining, so I finished leveling drk in hopes of some reason to show up and keep me playing..

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Originally Posted by Iamsomeone

The way SE babysits scrubs shows me a door out of this game :p.

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Ok, see you.

I do hope all of the "wah wah scrub" salty boys in this thread have their AS3 or AS4 kill. I wouldn't want to read some more salty "don't diminish my e-peen you filthy rat" (Zephyrin is that you ? ) from people who have nothing to brag about, like back when coil was a thing.

Noone would bat an eye if AS3 or AS4 were to be nrfed at this point. Everyone should have had more than enough time and overgear to overcome the challenge if they were competent enough (and cheese the way through AS4).

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Probably because it was propped up by echo. Story and savage was supposed to mean this wasn't needed but I'll not get into that again.

I think you suffer from raider mentality.

Although the best gear is available via raiding most players dont raid and have no intention to raid. It might seem like most players raid but in reality most dont, even the story mode. If servers fail it's usually because people always go to the high pop server so there's not as many new players going onto a server.

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There was no echo back in BCoB. Noone even knew echo would ever come one day. Still there ws no massive static breakdown at that time on th insane difficulty that were T2 (before th cheese was found) and T5 (before the twister nerf).

And even after, in SCoB and FCoB, people weren't waiting for echo. Most raiders cleared all the raids before the echo came in

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Probably everything will be nerfed. Having content only few people can clear is not $$$healthy$$$ to the game.

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I disagree with this. The vast majority of the content is not very difficult and most players can clear it. But it's also good to have difficult challenges for those players who like that sort of thing.

The problem with coil was it had a great story locked behind difficult content most won't see. But now they have Alex normal for glamours and story. There's really nothing a casual player needs from Savage. Savage is smart in that it reuses most of the assets from normal mode, so it shouldn't require a lot of extra cost to develop. This is the best and most cost effective way to provide good challenge for those who want it, while not detracting in any way from normal, more casual players.

There's no need to make Savage much more "accessible" at all. It's not necessary, useful or even profitable to have most people do this niche content.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I disagree with this. The vast majority of the content is not very difficult and most players can clear it. But it's also good to have difficult challenges for those players who like that sort of thing.

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If normal mode wasn't an undertuned, DF content, then sure. Otherwise, you're acrrying over players who have statics oriented to FCoB slamming their heads onto A3s for the past few months, assuming they were even in a static for that long. Otherwise, if you're omitting savage out of the equation, there's no raid content other than normal mode which is DFable. Being on either (or both) end of the extreme isn't good; If it's too easy, it gets exhausted too quickly. If it's too difficult for most people, well you kinda see where we're at now with the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

(..) most players can clear it. (..)

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Can you please backup this with numbers?
There is a reason why SE is nerfing content, they HAVE the numbers!
All is relative, you can start counting "active players" or lessen the number with saying "active raiding players", no wait: lets say "hardcore gamers" or "server first players"... it all depends of your point of view!

I think they could really settle this debate on the next raid tier with 3 difficulties.

The normal one, tuned exactly like Alexander Normal: a DF story version, spammable for low level raid gear (no materia slots, no dye option, 20 ilvs lower than Hard/Savage)
The hard one, tuned like SCoB: a midcore raid go-to with high tier level gear (materia slots, still no dye option)
Savage, tuned exactly like today's AS3/AS4: drops augmentation items to make Hard version equips dyeable, with no ilv change. Totally superfluos, still something that the 1% super hardcore raiders can brag about and show out.

I'd be happy with this.

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Originally Posted by Iamsomeone

The way SE babysits scrubs shows me a door out of this game :p.

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Good, one less raider wanting to turn this game into a raid focused scene. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Clearly, Diadem giving BiS everything (except weapon, which relic will do) isn't enough for people.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

Good, one less raider wanting to turn this game into a raid focused scene. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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Wao, with this kind of attitude, this game may as well be a Social MMO like Second Life.
Where do you think all the theorycrafting and those precious guides you so depend on but loathe to read come from if were not for the raid scene?

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Can you please backup this with numbers?

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In Giant's defense, I think he was making a different point. "The vast majority of the content is not very difficult and most players can clear it. But it's also good to have difficult challenges for those players who like that sort of thing."

I didn't read that as "most people can clear savage"

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Wao, with this kind of attitude, this game may as well be a Social MMO like Second Life.
Where do you think all the theorycrafting and those precious guides you so depend on but loathe to read come from if were not for the raid scene?

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Wrong, anyone who can play their class well and know some math can make a guide.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Wrong, anyone who can play their class well and know some math can make a guide.

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Heh, even people who don't know what they're talking about can do guides. I remember guides back in 2.0 saying that weapon damage wasn't the best stat "as it is only changing auto attack power" (sic)

Very well, but they must make normal alex and faceroll ark 10 times harder so nothing is either 2hard or 2easy.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Very well, but they must make normal alex and faceroll ark 10 times harder so nothing is either 2hard or 2easy.

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Either they make it so that Normal Alex doesn't give gear, so both Normal Alex and Savage Alex are tuned for similar gear (so you can't overgear Normal Alex by 25 ilv). Or they make it so that Savage Alex don't give gear and is only achievement/mount. But either way, there should be a story mode most people get to see (with random groups, not statics), before they're 2 patches outdated with echo and a higher ilv.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Either they make it so that Normal Alex doesn't give gear, so both Normal Alex and Savage Alex are tuned for similar gear (so you can't overgear Normal Alex by 25 ilv). Or they make it so that Savage Alex don't give gear and is only achievement/mount. But either way, there should be a story mode most people get to see (with random groups, not statics), before they're 2 patches outdated with echo and a higher ilv.

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Well, is 3.2 there is a pretty high chance story mode will be gone.

There is always youtube, waiting a patch or two, or sitting out until the next expansion. I am sure players who can't raid can find something fun and captivating in the other 95% of the content designed and catered to them.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

In Giant's defense, I think he was making a different point. "The vast majority of the content is not very difficult and most players can clear it. But it's also good to have difficult challenges for those players who like that sort of thing."

I didn't read that as "most people can clear savage"

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Alex savage isnt the first one that got nerfed in history of FFXIV.
I was not trying to attack Giant, it was meant generally.

Edit: What makes Alex Savage Special is that yoshi himself said that they expected more players to clear it by now!