Astrologian Hate!?

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Originally Posted by Xalvador

Next time argue like that in private. These forums are for discussing the topic at hand and the healer jobs, not for senseless arguments.

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LOL, I love how people here think they are moderators. It's also quite amusing how people who want the "argument" (which was actually about a component of "the healer job") to be done feel the need to bring it up again.

So me saying I'd rather not see an argument makes me a moderator...? Ok then

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Originally Posted by Xalvador

Next time argue like that in private. These forums are for discussing the topic at hand and the healer jobs, not for senseless arguments.

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If that kind of discussion bothers you so, refrain from butting in and allow it to die a natural death.

Attempting to moderate your fellow posters almost invariably leaves you coming off as more out-of-line than anyone you are criticizing.

I'll do so next time, thank you :)

All I'd like to see is lightspeed be on a shorter cooldown. If it was, and also made cures be off the gcd, that could be the ast's emergency heal cool down. Adjust the MP reduction based on how much shorter the cool down is.

And for celestial opposition to buff the potency of cards and aspected shields in nocturnal sect.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

It's been done for 2.5 hours.

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Most of the times people bring the discussion back after some minutes/hours, that's why i was asking for an end.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

GUYS! Who cares anyways? Can you both please end this useless argument?

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Originally Posted by Xalvador

Next time argue like that in private. These forums are for discussing the topic at hand and the healer jobs, not for senseless arguments.

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I don't understand these posts.

First, the argument was done long before anyone came in. In fact NorthernLadMSP said they were done and I purposefully made my last post was literal as to not bait a response.

Second, most of the argument was on topic. There were a couple posts that were unnecessary, but the bulk of them I was trying to explain how fey wind, arrow, and balance have the same effect on a group. My large dps explanation was also serious, as at that point I thought that maybe they thought "dps" was interchangeable with how much damage a single action does, which is something I've seen before. And, believe it or not, this argument may have explained that latter point to people who were actually unaware of that.

So yeah, I wont drag out this specific argument any longer than this post, but I think both of these posts ended up being more useless than about 80% of our argument...

These forums are much more entertaining and perhaps even more productive when you walk in with the expectation that everyone will be big ol' diva and be prone to arguing about arguing itself.

By this point, even if another poster is catty towards me for no discernible reason, I'll usually have moved past it by the next thread. A little fur flies because we all feel strongly that we are correct, then we keep talking shop. No biggie.

The flood of AST-centric threads and the ongoing arguments have definitely upped the overall bitch factor as of late, I will admit.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

You didn't need to act clever , count the hours, and make me look stupid. I was quite aware of the time.
*eye roll*

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My comment was just a direct response. It was not written with the intention of acting clever or making you look stupid.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

So yeah, I wont drag out this specific argument any longer than this post, but I think both of these posts ended up being more useless than about 80% of our argument...

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Without rehashing any of our interaction, I apologize to you for misunderstanding you. When I read a few of your posts, I took them as condescending - as if you were talking down to me. I was wrong.

And I do agree with you that our discussion was most certainly relevant to the thread at hand.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

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As i said, most of the times people bring back the discussion after some hours/minutes, i was aware of the time.
The discussion started to fall away from topic since it started to talk about "how DPS works" instead of "why people hate AST, how to prevent that from happening, why AST is weaker, how to fix that,etc...".
We were only looking for an end to your almost endless discussion that was starting to get agressive, how's that useless?

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

My comment was just a direct response. It was not written with the intention of acting clever or making you look stupid.

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Then, i'm sorry, i misunderstood your coment.

https://41.media.tumblr.com/d1f67b53...t8dh9a_540.png

https://40.media.tumblr.com/1a5f34d0...500.jpghttp://
nowai this is how u play AST the fun way xD

https://40.media.tumblr.com/1a5f34d0...qz82o1_500.jpg

See fun ast

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

https://40.media.tumblr.com/1a5f34d0...qz82o1_500.jpg

See fun ast

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lol that is great. They really need to change the animation to where I just smash cards directly into people's faces.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

As i said, most of the times people bring back the discussion after some hours/minutes, i was aware of the time.
The discussion started to fall away from topic since it started to talk about "how DPS works" instead of "why people hate AST, how to prevent that from happening, why AST is weaker, how to fix that,etc...".
We were only looking for an end to your almost endless discussion that was starting to get agressive, how's that useless?

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Understanding how dps works is how you understand how buffs like fey wind, arrow, and balance work in the grand scheme of things. As well as help you understand how/why fey wind outclasses both cards. Which I'd say is actually pretty on topic since it is a massive portion of the topic at hand.

It might be a "basic lesson" in an "advanced discussion", but it's entirely relevant. If someone doesn't understand said basics they can't participate in the discussion in a meaningful way. The whole argument was me trying to clear up a misunderstanding, then me thinking that maybe they thought "dps" meant dmg done on a hit by hit basis. So believe it or not but I was trying to be helpful once I thought maybe they were thinking of something else.

And it was "useless" because the argument was over. They even said as much. Plus it wasn't "almost endless", it was like 1 page. Stop being so overdramatic.

Attack speed doesn't increase your critical damage potency, balance does.

Attack speed will be helpfull for caster who need to move a lot, 'cause it can allow them to finish a cast before taking damage. In a peacefull dps check, damage buff can surpass attack speed buff through the increase of maximum damage potency thanks to critical multiplier.

I dont understand how anyone can learn a job from lvl 30 guess i'll find that out soon

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Originally Posted by Snolily

I dont understand how anyone can learn a job from lvl 30 guess i'll find that out soon

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AST has almost the exact same tools as WHM at level 30 except with the addition of Draw.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

Attack speed doesn't increase your critical damage potency, balance does.

Attack speed will be helpfull for caster who need to move a lot, 'cause it can allow them to finish a cast before taking damage. In a peacefull dps check, damage buff can surpass attack speed buff through the increase of maximum damage potency thanks to critical multiplier.

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It ends up evening out though, because in the same vein that balance boosts the damage a crit does, attack speed allows for more crits to happen over a set period of time (because it allows you to get more attacks off in general). Which is why in the end they even out. Or at the very least end up being so close that it doesn't mean much.

Not to mention you'd be putting even more restrictions on AST. It would require you do get a ewer/spire to RR one draw, then balance the next, and then repeat that exact pattern forever just to match fey wind. At least assuming you're still talking about what you were talking about in your last post.

No cause in 15 sec with 5% attack speed bonus (spread reduce card effect by 50%) you don't gain even one more hit. So you don't gain more % critical chance (maybe one more dot)
For a dps check balance is more suitable.

And if you have only one caster in your team you can focus an increased attack speed bonus on him + time dilation. You allow him to get +15% attack speed during 30 sec that way he will be able to still perform a good dps even in hard mechanic phase.
Even with the random aspect of Astro there is always something very usefull to do.

The faywind won't be always usefull cause player will focus on mechanics and will waste the buff you give them sometimes. Astro powers are more situational and with a good experience can be very optimized.

I had a long drawn out post I was halfway through, but honestly I'm tired of arguing this. The math on how all these buffs compare and the effect they have on dps and been done, and the verdict is that a 30 second +3% attack speed buff that can be cast every 1 min consistently beats out balance and arrow in real situations. This is not including the fact SCH can simultaneously cast a 10% dmg reduction field every 30 sec that lasts 15 sec.

I want to like AST too, so I get why people try so hard to defend it. But fact is it's just not that good atm.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I had a long drawn out post I was halfway through, but honestly I'm tired of arguing this. The math on how all these buffs compare and the effect they have on dps and been done, and the verdict is that a 30 second +3% attack speed buff that can be cast every 1 min consistently beats out balance and arrow in real situations. This is not including the fact SCH can simultaneously cast a 10% dmg reduction field every 30 sec that lasts 15 sec.

I want to like AST too, so I get why people try so hard to defend it. But fact is it's just not that good atm.

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You can talk till you are blue in the face or your fingers fall off. If someone didn't come up with the math themselves, they won't believe it even when they know it was done correctly. You tell someone theres a magic fairy in the sky creating worlds and they'll believe it. Tell them the paint is wet and they have to touch it. Same concept.

I want to like AST, but I can't get over not having a reliable way to fix group mistakes in time.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I want to like AST, but I can't get over not having a reliable way to fix group mistakes in time.

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There is a way!
First, predict when your group is going to make a mistake, and how many of your group will be affected. Armed with this 'information', keep drawing cards until you draw bole, but before that, keep drawing cards until you can either get expanded or enhanced royal road. Now that you have your appropriate royal road, either cast the enhanced version on the person about to make a mistake, or tell everyone to gather so you can hit everyone with an almost useless damage decrease buff. Then, after the mistake is made, use aspected helios on the group or benefic 2 on the individual. This could take anywhere from 3 minutes to 3 years to set up properly, but at any rate, problem solved!

Or you could level whm instead and use divine seal on medica 2 in like 3 seconds, or just use an instant cast benediction, or use presence of mind.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I want to like AST, but I can't get over not having a reliable way to fix group mistakes in time.

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I wish astrologian's had a ability that let them have a considerably lower global cooldown then the other two healers. Being the busy healer having more casts but less potent casts seems like it would fit he job nicely. I hope they allow lightspeed to lower the global cooldown by a significant amount since its only useful for endurance with mana cost and movement right now.

I want to like AST, it was my first 60 but it's just so ...meh. SE, if you don't want to fix AST for AST, do it for WHM and SCH. Every time I get paired with an AST, I'm like, "Ah, crap... Well, better put on my big girl panties, it's time to carry".

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

AST has almost the exact same tools as WHM at level 30 except with the addition of Draw.

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Draw reminds me of Corsair lol. I will find out soon, it looks cool.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Or you could level whm instead and use divine seal on medica 2 in like 3 seconds, or just use an instant cast benediction, or use presence of mind.

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(continuing your post)
Or you can level sch instead and use fey illumination+indomitability, or rouse+whispering dawn or Lustrate or Emergency tactics+Adloquium(it tastes like the kiss of a flying rainbow unicorn when it crits <3 ) -and the list goes-

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

(continuing your post)
Or you can level sch instead and use fey illumination+indomitability, or rouse+whispering dawn or Lustrate or Emergency tactics+Adloquium(it tastes like the kiss of a flying rainbow unicorn when it crits <3 ) -and the list goes-

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I don't have scholar leveled past E4E so I couldn't comment on that lol. But I did forget about eglasticamation or whatever the new mini-benediction for whms is called.

edit: Tetragrammaton, seriously who comes up with these names

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

I don't have scholar leveled past E4E so I couldn't comment on that lol. But I did forget about eglasticamation or whatever the new mini-benediction for whms is called.

edit: Tetragrammaton, seriously who comes up with these names

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Yeah i imagined XD that's why i wanted to reinforce your comment
Also, Ikr?
"Tetragrammaton", "apocatastasis (what the hell? )".

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

edit: Tetragrammaton, seriously who comes up with these names

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Well, since you asked:

"Tetragrammaton" is the Hebrew name of God transliterated in four letters as YHWH or JHVH and articulated as Yahweh or Jehovah.

Nothing says 'emergency healing spell' like ancient linguistics.

Didn't read every single post ever in this topic, but uh, I don't think the op watched the same world first videos I watched. There are three world first videos total. World first SA1 (Lucrezia), SA2 & 3 (Elysium). The rest are not world first. They are world second or third or fourth. None of the world first contained an AST. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Anyendryyl

LOL, I never once said I wanted to keep it as is. I'm all for uping it's power. But not in the form of "better heals" I actually have no clue how to fix it. Maybe make lumiferous last 30-45 seconds and increase it's CD. Let me move/place CU. Maybe add a LITTLE power to aspected helios. I don't know, but they can't give me the same heals as a whm/sch or else we'll replace them with the same heals+buffs.

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This logic is why AST doesn't have a place in progression.

Because they can't replace what WHM/SCH brings to the table.

AST needs to be able to replace one or the other, and the design of the class implies it should be able to take either role, the PROBLEM is that it's very hard to balance this so that AST/AST isn't the best way to go.

It needs to be equally viable to take AST/WHM, AST/SCH, as it is to take WHM/SCH, and it AST/AST needs to be undesirable in some way.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

This logic is why AST doesn't have a place in progression.

Because they can't replace what WHM/SCH brings to the table.

AST needs to be able to replace one or the other, and the design of the class implies it should be able to take either role, the PROBLEM is that it's very hard to balance this so that AST/AST isn't the best way to go.

It needs to be equally viable to take AST/WHM, AST/SCH, as it is to take WHM/SCH, and it AST/AST needs to be undesirable in some way.

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Letting us stance dance in combat and fixing our two broken cooldowns would pretty much solve 99% of astro issues.

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Originally Posted by PixelFashion

Didn't read every single post ever in this topic, but uh, I don't think the op watched the same world first videos I watched. There are three world first videos total. World first SA1 (Lucrezia), SA2 & 3 (Elysium). The rest are not world first. They are world second or third or fourth. None of the world first contained an AST. That is all.

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Yep, it's all about min/max at the undergeared, world first raid level. Kind of like how the world first A3S clears both had DRK instead of PLD. Doesn't mean PLD isn't viable, just that they were obviously looking to push main tank DPS. Same with AST, it is viable.

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Originally Posted by technole

Yep, it's all about min/max at the undergeared, world first raid level. Kind of like how the world first A3S clears both had DRK instead of PLD. Doesn't mean PLD isn't viable, just that they were obviously looking to push main tank DPS. Same with AST, it is viable.

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There was even a machinist on the Lucrezia party.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Letting us stance dance in combat and fixing our two broken cooldowns would pretty much solve 99% of astro issues.

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I'd prefer you put me on ignore, and refrain from responding to my posts. I don't have the inclination to deal with trolls.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

There was even a machinist on the Lucrezia party.

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MCH gives 5% Phys Damage buff and 5% Mag Damage buff and TP/MP and has insane burst. It is not comparable to how AST currently is.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

This logic is why AST doesn't have a place in progression.

Because they can't replace what WHM/SCH brings to the table.

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But if they can fully replace one of those, that job becomes shunned. Even if AST/AST doesn't become a thing, if AST is (for example) WHM + buff cards... why bring WHM?

So, it can't bring what WHM or SCH brings to the table, unless you want to see one of those jobs shunned (although... judging from how the tank forums are acting about war, I do think quite a few on the forums would take pleasure in it).