Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Prey is not a tank buster in A1N OR A1S. Prey is prey, 6 missiles will hit the target. Target is random. It's also physical, not magical. His cleave 'royal fount' is a pathetic 5 k unmitigated hit. Not a tank buster.

A1N has no tank buster, A1S has hypercompressed plasma. It is a magical attack dealing around 25k unmitigated damage on the player with the highest threat. The tank. Please don't mistake a simple damage mechanic for an actual buster of tanks.

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Thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it.

No, I'm not gonna edit/delete my old post, since it has replies....and even with the errors the point (PLD CDs aren't completely worthless, as the post I replied to insinuated) stands.

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.

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Another rarely pointed out fact. +1

The tank forums are so sloshed with bad information with their telephone game effects.

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

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Its not a trifecta, its the pillar of WAR with 2 dinky planks supporting it on the side. If it was truly balanced we wouldn't be having this discussion, and 99% of groups wouldn't have a warrior as an OT.

Are you seriously saying that the debuffs WAR brings are in any way equal to the pitiful "half debuffs" that PLD and DRK bring, that don't even do as much individually as WAR's debuff does to ALL damage types?

Are you even aware what the "difference between the tanks" are? How making a debuff stronger has literally nothing to do with how the class plays? What the hell does wanderer's minuet even have to do with anything? Whaaaaaat? Are tanks getting cast times?

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

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..... balanced... sure. I'm not even gonna venture into this one. Read the last nine pages. They are any thing but on equal footing currently.

The misconceptions that people have shows how much people "think" about class balance instead of just copying top raid groups' setups. (hint: they don't!) And it kinda irks me. I will work to clear some of them.

Misconception #1: WAR is worst MT. On the contrary, WAR is a great MT!

1- WAR CDs are the shortest, allowing them to be up for the most frequent busters! Think back on Twintania with 35s Death Sentence. PLD relied on Stoneskin + Adlo or tank swaps, otherwise took full damage. WAR has IB for every darned DS.

2- WAR can stack CDs to have universally the highest effective HP! In a normal scenario a WAR will use 1 CD + IB. Usually putting it ahead of any of the other tanks single CD usage. Stacking all CDs for scenarios like As1 where busters are every 2 minutes, WAR wins.

WAR: ToB (EHP x1.2), Vengeance (EHP x1.429), IB (EHP x1.25) for a total of 214% of their max HP. Add a reliable Raw Intuition Physical only for an additional multiplier of EHP x1.25 (267.5%).

PLD: Rampart (EHP x1.25), Sentinel (EHP 1.667) for a total of 208% of their max HP. You can add Sheltron/Bulwark for physical only but they are less reliable (can miss) and depend on your shield block power. Multiplier varies between 1.25 to 1.38 (Kite vs tower) (260~287%)

DRK: Shadowskin (EHP x1.25), Shadowwall (EHP1.429) for a total of 178.6% of max HP. You can add Reprisal (EHP x1.11) but it's not reliable. DA+Dark Mind for additional EHP x1.429 against magic (edging at 255% of max HP) and Dark Dance is a joke in terms of EHP.

Realistically, PLD will throw either Rampart (HPx1.25) or Sentinel(HPx1.667) against a single Buster. Add shield block if timed correctly against physical.
DRK will throw either Shadowskin (HPx1.25) or Shadowwall (HPx1.429) and only pair DADM for magical to reach HPx1.7825 and HPx2.04 respectively.
WAR will always pair IB with another CD. IB+ToB is HPx1.5 and IB+Vengeance is HPx1.786.

Against physical damage: WAR is actually ahead of PLD unless PLD successfully blocks with a tower shield at 267.5% vs 260~287% and just blows DRK out of the water by almost a full HP worth in EHP at 267.5% vs 178.6%! This gap will lessen/widen as PLD gets higher ilv shields.

Against Magical damage: WAR is clearly behind DRK with about 40% HP worth in EHP at 214% vs 255% but is slightly ahead of PLD by 6%.

Verdict: While you will almost never throw all your CDs at any given buster, the fact that WAR pumps higher EHP against any buster than the other two tanks in physical and ahead of PLD but behind DRK in magical is still there.

Foresight, Awareness, Convalescence and co add negligible EHP if at all so they were left out. Storm's Path, STR/INT debuffs and other random factors were neglected as the other tanks benefit from them as well.

3 - WAR self heals are the most potent and easiest to utilize of the three.

4 - Nothing in WAR's toolkit is exclusive to the OT role. What they do as OT they can do as MT.

5 - With proper utilization of Unchained, Berserk and stance dancing, WAR has the highest MT DPS potential.

Misconception #2: WAR is best OT WAR is a great OT. But it has no real edge over the other tanks in OT outside of TP.

What WAR does as OT, they can do as MT. Storm's Path/Eye are not deliverance exclusive.

Slashing debuff is not WAR exclusive. DRK/PLD with a NIN will give you the same results of a PLD/WAR combo. Allows you to drop a monk for the higher DPS from DRG and NIN. NIN alleviates the TP issues DRk/PLD have as OT.

This also brings us to misconception #3.

Misconception #3: WAR has the highest off tank DPS this is far from true.

WAR only pulls ahead of DRK when DRK has no slashing debuff. At ilv180 with 190 weapon, usually WAR parses roughly 1000 DPS and DRK roughly 900 DPS. Multiply DRK's DPS by 1.11 and you'll get a figure that is roughly 1000 DPS.

Both WAR and DRK pull roughly 100 DPS ahead of PLD when all three classes have the slashing debuff.

While PLD and DRK will run out of TP on a dummy. That is rarely the case in actual fights where bosses will jump and become invulnerable giving them enough window to regenerate enough TP to keep wailing at the boss until the next jump. Exception is A2/As2, but the AoE breaks requiring you to use MP instead of TP (while WAR still 100% relying on its TP) also alleviate the resource problem.

PLD is only really behind in AoE scenarios because its AoE is a bad joke from SE.

Misconception #4: War utility is better than the other two tanks People exaggerate this so much it's almost funny!

But, this is partially true as DRK has almost no utility!

WAR's ONLY unique thing is Storm Path. You CAN live without it! Trust me! It's nice to have Storm Path, but it is NOT a must.

The over-glorified slashing debuff is also brought in by a NIN. Yes, the NIN loses like 60 potency to apply it. But come on! WAR loses 40 potency doing Storm Path instead of Butcher's Block and no body complains! War loses this 40 potency every 2 combos. NIN loses this every 4 combos + 1 DoT application! (Dancing Edge combo > Shadow Fang combo > Mutilate > Aeolian Edge > Dancing Edge > Shadow fang > Armor Crush sums the NIN rotation)

TL;DR
- WAR is not a worse MT than the other two. Depending on the situation, WAR is actually either a better MT or equally good compared to the other two.
- WAR is not a superior OT as people make it and is not as mandatory to any raid composition.
Let's just stop creating advantages/disadvantages that aren't there.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I agree that it would somewhat make classes a bit less distinct, but when you have a raid that simply takes more damage and does less damage without a warrior, than with any of the other tanks, it is kind of silly.

If you want more unique but numbersbalancedish traits, try something like

1. PLD increases healing taken by the raid by 5%. DRK causes all damage to target to heal attackers by 1%.
2. PLD increases raid crit rate by 2%. DRK increases raid haste by 2%.

Etc etc.

The bottom line is only one class brings universally useful abilities, while the other two are niche, and don't provide ANY offensive benefit to the raid. Guess which one you always bring.

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thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

..... balanced... sure. I'm not even gonna venture into this one. Read the last nine pages. They are any thing but on equal footing currently.

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i stopped at 3, people were just rehashing old arguments over and over hoping the shit would stick to the wall finally, it doesn't. people are clearing A1 and 2 savage and almost downing 3 with PLD+DRK compositions. WAR's arent needed, we're a part of the pie, not a nessesary piece

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

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But you end up having warrior who can do all of both, and the other two who can do "a bit of each".

10% STR is nowhere near as powerful as 10% damage reduction, even if all the boss does is physical attacks.

Furthermore, this GUARANTEES that DRK and PLD will be swapped out for magic/phys fights while WAR is ALWAYS in every party.

You see the issue with this?

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

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So its balance to you when the only real options are WAR/DRK or WAR/PLD pr WAR/WAR if you wanna go there?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Great Big Snip of good info.

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Thank you. Im at work, so i would have never been able to get all that in XD But you broke it down very nicely. people keep callign foul on WARs for being so far ahead, when we really arent.

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

Thank you. Im at work, so i would have never been able to get all that in XD But you broke it down very nicely. people keep callign foul on WARs for being so far ahead, when we really arent.

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Reposting for him:

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

I have WAR/PLD/DRK geared and 60. WAR is the bomb.com

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

i stopped at 3, people were just rehashing old arguments over and over hoping the shit would stick to the wall finally, it doesn't. people are clearing A1 and 2 savage and almost downing 3 with PLD+DRK compositions. WAR's arent needed, we're a part of the pie, not a nessesary piece

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NEEDED is not the argument. You can probably do anything soon with any composition but thats not the argument. Its not optimal to bring PLD/DRK for anything currently. Any group that doesn't have tanks that are sticks in the mud are gonna bring at least one WAR to a raid. SE/SP > than any other utility that any other tank offers.

If this is your opinion then that is fine. If your stating it as a fact then back it up with some info.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

But you end up having warrior who can do all of both, and the other two who can do "a bit of each".

10% STR is nowhere near as powerful as 10% damage reduction, even if all the boss does is physical attacks.

Furthermore, this GUARANTEES that DRK and PLD will be swapped out for magic/phys fights while WAR is ALWAYS in every party.

You see the issue with this?

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Except for those groups who are clearing Savage without a WAR At all? Weird, here's your wrench, throw it wherever you want in you WAR in every party argument.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

NEEDED is not the argument. You can probably do anything soon with any composition but thats not the argument. Its not optimal to bring PLD/DRK for anything currently. Any group that doesn't have tanks that are sticks in the mud are gonna bring at least one WAR to a raid. SE/SP > than any other utility that any other tank offers.

If this is your opinion then that is fine. If your stating it as a fact then back it up with some info.

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you want to talk optimal? Fine, it's not optimal to bring BRD or Machinist either in DPS checks, are those unbalanced and broken? No? okay.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Reposting for him:

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

I have WAR/PLD/DRK geared and 60. WAR is the bomb.com

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why does everyone use Burst damage as a measure? BRDs have astounding burst damage, but they arent the best DPS. It's not an argument point

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

you want to talk optimal? Fine, it's not optimal to bring BRD or Machinist either in DPS checks, are those unbalanced and broken? No? okay.

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Duh.... They need fixes too. Thats not even the topic of this thread.

Are you gonna offer a real argument or just troll?

The issue is not exactly simple. Warriors not only bring more dps, they increase raid dps with slashing, AND they have the 10% exclusive to them.

Step 1, Bring the dps of the classes closer. Let warrior still be one top, but at least let them all be within 150 in = gear.

Step 2, Address the raid dps. This one is trickier.

Personally, I would get rid of slashing, blunt, piercing. Just combine them into a physical def reduction. I would also give some classes a mag def reduction.

For example, Drg, War, Mnk bring physical.
Pally, Drk, Ninja bring magical.
Foes would be seperate.

This would allow classes to still have their own identities while not being pigeon holed into bringing certain classes. A few changes would need to be adjusted, like sword oath, the 50 damage should holy magic like an imbued sword so it is increased by magic def reduction.

Step 3, the 10% damage reduction.

It is clearly not ideal for one class to have this. But it is also kind of boring to have all 3 with it.

It was mentioned above. Give a class specific 5% to all 3 tanks. Let them stack with other tanks but not their own class. This would address several things.

Warrior would no longer be a requirement.
You would definitely want to mix up with 2 types of tanks.
It would be far less likely later on for solo tank strats to come up as the the damage would be increased an additional 5%.

All in all, none of the changes would really change the differentiating playstyles of the 3 tanks but bring them more into balance with each other. Now that we have 3 tanks balance is more important then in ARR where you still wanted to take one of each regardless.

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

you want to talk optimal? Fine, it's not optimal to bring BRD or Machinist either in DPS checks, are those unbalanced and broken? No? okay.

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A lot of ppl on the dps forum would disagree (not all obviously). BRD/MCH are only brought for one reason-- MP/TP regen. They're pretty much just a battery. Which is why you'll most likely never see more than one in any savage group.

At the end of the day, it's the Official Forums, the NA one at that. People whine and whine and whine here, it's where the vocal minority get their frustration out by rallying together with the other minor few who bother to waste their time in here, or are like me, at work and bored and lookin for people to make fun of

WAR is fine. they arent going to change it. PLD wont change, DRK may see a buff or some changes to their CD synergy, since Evasion buff on a Parry reliant Tank makes no real sense. Other then that you're all throwing leaves in the wind, it'll fall on deaf ears <3 Have fun arguing over nothing

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

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All of the tank jobs have strengths and weaknesses, but saying it's balanced is completely wrong unless you are content with switching between classes according to the raid (or if you are a warrior already!). Which is fine for some of us, but not viable for everyone.

I know others have pointed this out before, but consider the reasonable tank compositions which statics currently consider.
Acceptable tank comps for all progression content:
PLD WAR
WAR WAR
DRK WAR

Monk in the party, optimal comps:
PLD WAR
WAR WAR

Monk in the party, hitting enrage or struggling with dps checks, optimal comps:
WAR WAR

Of course it's a trifecta, but one where warrior is always first and just a matter of deciding which of the three are in second and third based on the run.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.

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You're wrong. Sentinel is still 40%, Vengeance is still 30%. Defiance, Shield Oath and Grit all have pretty much the same effect on your eHP (Defiance actually makes WAR receive less relative healing) and can be ignored when comparing cooldowns.

Assume both tanks have 10k hp base and take a 12.5k hp hit. PLD loses 10k hp, WAR loses 12.5k (out of 12.5k). They've both died.
Now assume they have Sentinel/Vengeance. PLD loses 10000*0.6=6k which is a reduction of 40% (40% hp left). WAR loses 12500*0.7=8750, which is a reduction of 30% (30% left).

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

At the end of the day, it's the Official Forums, the NA one at that. People whine and whine and whine here, it's where the vocal minority get their frustration out by rallying together with the other minor few who bother to waste their time in here, or are like me, at work and bored and lookin for people to make fun of

WAR is fine. they arent going to change it. PLD wont change, DRK may see a buff or some changes to their CD synergy, since Evasion buff on a Parry reliant Tank makes no real sense. Other then that you're all throwing leaves in the wind, it'll fall on deaf ears <3 Have fun arguing over nothing

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Good argument. Next time bring an argument. Citing SE wont fix it cause they don't care is ineffectual, silly, and ignorant. Thanks for the lol's on your posts though.

Addtionally,

NOONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING WAR IS BAD!!
NOONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD BE NERFED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!

We are discussing outside of the box ways to bring the other 2 tanks inline with War so that people can play the class the want to play and not the class that they are being requested to play.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Another rarely pointed out fact. +1

The tank forums are so sloshed with bad information with their telephone game effects.

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Quick basic math.

It shouldn't necessarily matter based on this logic (Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong):

Both Tanks take 10 000 Damage.

Defiance

12500 - (10000 - 3000{Vengeance}) = 5500(44% of 12 500)

(Defiance+Vengeance+Inner Beast)
10 000 -30% = 7000
7000 -20% = 5600

12 500 - 5600 = 6900 (55.2%)


Grit

10000 - ((10 000 - 2000{Grit}) - 2400{ShadowWall}) = 4400(44% of 10 000)

(Grit+ShadowWall+Shadowskin)
10 000 -20% = 8000
8000 -30% = 5600
5600 -20% = 4480

10 000 - 4480 = 5520(55.2%)

They're pretty equal regardless if you're stacking it on Defiance or ShO/Grit.

As we all know Warriors need 5% more healing because +25%HP and +20%Increased Spell Healing =/= 20% Damage Reduction.

If you guys weren't pointing out that Defiance was better than ShO/Grit then I'm sorry I have eyes for decoration. Please carry on.

Not really Equal.

Vengeance is 120 second CD. Shadowwall is 180 second CD.
Shadowwall also does not do damage like vengeance.

Shadowskin is 90 second CD, Inner Beast heals AND is 17.5 second CD if you do not cast your stuff. Which is way better because you have it when you need it all the time.

I would love Shadowskin at 6 second duration and 17.5 (Or 20.) cd and healed.
I would love Shadowwall if it had a less CD and also had an additional effect.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Good argument. Next time bring an argument. Citing SE wont fix it cause they don't care is ineffectual, silly, and ignorant. Thanks for the lol's on your posts though.

Addtionally,

NOONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING WAR IS BAD!!
NOONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD BE NERFED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!

We are discussing outside of the box ways to bring the other 2 tanks inline with War so that people can play the class the want to play and not the class that they are being requested to play.

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lololol, Caps lock, Cruise control for "im right you're wrong neener neener"

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

lololol, Caps lock, Cruise control for "im right you're wrong neener neener"

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Ok, now you are trolling.

Good day.

@Launched

Stacking % mitigation is multiplicative not additive.
ShO equates to damage received multiplied by 0.8. With Sentinel it then reduces damage by (0.8 X 0.4) or 32% additional reduction to the 20% from ShO for a total of 52% damage reduction, not the 60% that it would be if it was additive.
Simply put Sentinel is 40% of 80%, not just an additional 40%.

Vengeance is not effected by this because Defiance is not a % mitigation buff, therefore it does not result in the 30% reduction from Vengeance being multiplied by another % to get its final effective % reduction, it is just simply the stated 30% (unless stacked with IB).

The eHP provided by the stances are virtually equivalent, that is true but one results in lessening other % mitigation abilities by roughly 20% due to the multiplicative nature of stacking buffs/debuffs in this game.

I don't believe that anyone is saying that Defiance is inherently a better tank stance than the others, I believe what is being said is that the higher % reduction in the descriptions for some of the PLD and DRK defensive cd's is deceptive due to multiplicative calculation.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

I have WAR/PLD/DRK geared and 60. WAR is the bomb.com

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In my post I'm not arguing WAR's "superiority". I am just saying it is "silly" to pigeonhole this great class into the OT spot when it can FULLY FUNCTION as MT and the other tanks can FULLY function as OT.

WAR MT / PLD OT is actually a DPS gain over PLD MT / WAR OT. If say your group is running PLD and WAR in say A4, let the WAR MT since it WILL do more MT damage than MT PLD, it WILL mitigate more damage than the MT PLD, the OT PLD WILL do relevantly good DPS, OT PLD can actually put clemency to use on orbs, OT PLD will actually use its shield when tanking add and in quarantine! PLD won't have to level DRK to be "useful".
A DRK/PLD group can also function just as fine (sacrificing raid Storm Path only! which, let's face it, only eases on the need of using Sacred Soil on the SCH's side.) with a NIN in group.

Fun Fact: A lot of the "big raid wide" damage happens when Storm Path is down and cannot be applied to boss. Think As1 where both bosses jump.

My whole point in here is that if we get out of the "stick WAR into OT and let PLD or DRK MT" idea, we get far greater raid composition options that are competitive!

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

@Launched

% mitigation is multiplicative not additive.
ShO equates to damage received multiplied by 0.8. With Sentinel it then reduces damage by (0.8 X 0.4) or 32% additional reduction to the 20% from ShO for a total of 52% damage reduction, not the 60% that it would be if it was additive. Simply put Sentinel is 40% of 80%, not just an additional 40%.

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And my point that is with how tank stances work, a PLD still reduces 40% of the incoming damage with Sentinel while a WAR reduces 30%. The maths doesn't lie, the PLD isn't taking only 2% less damage or whatever you originally said. Tank stances increase eHP to the same amount, so you're mitigating by whatever percentage is on the skill you use.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Holy snippy snip

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Good post and well said. I learned a bit from it.

A shame it seems people are ignoring it.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

@Launched

Stacking % mitigation is multiplicative not additive.
ShO equates to damage received multiplied by 0.8. With Sentinel it then reduces damage by (0.8 X 0.4) or 32% additional reduction to the 20% from ShO for a total of 52% damage reduction, not the 60% that it would be if it was additive.
Simply put Sentinel is 40% of 80%, not just an additional 40%.

Vengeance is not effected by this because Defiance is not a % mitigation buff, therefore it does not result in the 30% reduction from Vengeance being multiplied by another % to get its final effective % reduction, it is just simply the stated 30% (unless stacked with IB).

The eHP provided by the stances are virtually equivalent, that is true but one results in lessening other % mitigation abilities by roughly 20% due to the multiplicative nature of stacking buffs/debuffs in this game.

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This isn't really how this works.

Defiance, Thrill, ShO, Grit, Rampart and any other ability that effects eHP are all multiplicative. Their effects when combined all multiply together to determine the final result.

PLD & WAR have 8000 hp.

PLD uses ShO and Rampart. PLD gets hit for 12500 damage. ShO reduces this to 80% so 12500 x 0.8 = 10000 damage. Rampart reduces this by a further 80% so 10000 x 0.8 = 8000 damage. PLD just barely dies.

WAR uses Defiance and Inner Beast. WAR has 10000 hp from Defiance. WAR gets hit for 12500 damage. Inner beast reduces this to 80% so 12500 x 0.8 = 10000 dies. WAR just barely dies.

You'll notice that after including the respective tank stances (Defiance, ShO), that the effect that the further 20% ability (Rampart/Inner Beast) has is exactly the same. Both tanks take the same amount of damage to die.

Mitigation abilities work equally whether they're on the WAR or the PLD.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I don't believe that anyone is saying that Defiance is inherently a better tank stance than the others, I believe what is being said is that the higher % reduction in the descriptions for some of the PLD and DRK defensive cd's is deceptive due to multiplicative calculation.

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There's nothing deceptive, they have the exact same effect.

Only difference is if you include healing because Defiance is 4% less effective with healing spells and completely ineffective with healing abilities.

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Originally Posted by Launched

And my point that is with how tank stances work, a PLD still reduces 40% of the incoming damage with Sentinel while a WAR reduces 30%. The maths doesn't lie, the PLD isn't taking only 2% less damage or whatever you originally said. Tank stances increase eHP to the same amount, so you're mitigating by whatever percentage is on the skill you use.

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That's true if they aren't in tank stances.

However if the PLD is in shield oath and takes 10000 then shield oath knocks it down to 8000 then sentinel knocks that down to 4800.

If a WAR pops vengeance that knocks it down to 7000 then IB would knock it down to 5600.

Since WAR's stance gives them a 20% healing bonus on top of that in addition to more HP then the eHP involved by using the same amount of cooldowns roughly goes to WAR. Although its pretty negligible.

This is how I thought it worked anyway.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Problem is when you already have competent healers even that advantage is thrown out of the window

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That's why I suggested that PLD could, as an off-tank, keep the MT alive by himself.

So, this dreaded "loss of DPS" would allow some setup to bring an additionnal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

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It's not a perfect trifecta for the reasons that have already been explained in this thread (IE, any raid group that doesn't bring a WAR is at a disadvantage) and due the fact that the way current, 3.0 gear works, you can't gear up all tanks simultaneously via esoterics as the gear is all locked to the job unless you want to rely entirely on RNG drops from Savage, which is ridiculous.

All the tanks offer something different and have different play styles.
Understanding and exploiting those for the benefit of your group, and playing a tank that fits your personal play style is really where this thread's focus should be.

Just because at this very moment in the small context of a few bosses, War is shining a tiny bit brighter than the other tanks doesn't mean the tanks are not properly balanced.

This game patches very often with new content, and players are constantly finding different ways to use their class in a raid environment for maximum effectiveness.

I feel like saying WAR is OP at this point is pretty premature.

#jealous #war

We're still six months or so away from a new raid tier, and the fact is that warrior's advantages are so universal and there's so few disadvantages in their toolkit that I find it bloody unlikely that they'll fall behind in the next Alexander raid unless they introduce a boss with a debuff called "Hit yourself with your axe" that exclusively targets WARs and makes them Fell Cleave themselves every 30 seconds.

@ Giantbane

What your saying is completely correct and my statements were actually not to the contrary. We are actually saying the same thing, except I was talking about just damage received numbers and you were talking about damage received % equivalence to total HP or how it equates to eHP.

So really everybody is technically correct with what they said, just many, myself included, were perhaps not as clear as they could have been.

Riffing off of your math example.

Example showing what I was saying.
12500 X .48 = 6000 damage taken
Which results in the same as what you were saying.
(12500 X.8=10000)x.6=6000

The .48 that I got for the multiplier is from adding together the 20% from ShO to the effective additional 32% from Sentinel (which is 20% less than the 40% in the description) to get the stated combined total of effective 52% reduction to damage received.

Yet when you look at it from the totality of what damage received equates to in eHP, they equal out.

PLD: 10000hp - 6000hp = 4000hp = 40% of total HP.
WAR: 12500hp-(12500x.6=7500)= 5000hp = 40% of total HP.

Point being, as I said both sides of this debate are correct as there is no debate since we are actually all saying the same thing in different ways with different focus on different numbers.

P.S. the reason I said the percents given in the descriptions could be deceptive is that they could be seen as an additional 40% (or whatever %). I have seen many people make this mistake. To those that know they are multiplicative and know how to calculate them, they are of course not really deceptive.

P.P.S. I just used sentinel's 40% reduction as an equitable baseline for the math.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

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I can think of 3.

1. kryptonite
2. lead
3. red sun


That's about it.

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Originally Posted by Anienai

I can think of 3.

1. kryptonite
2. lead
3. red sun


That's about it.

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I can't wait to see Man Of Steel Cyclone :p