White mage remain gimp because the can go scholar on real content?

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

The WHM brings the most powerful heals in the game. Tell me, do you also complain about BLM only bringing powerful DPS to a raid?

And no, SCH does not deal with mega flares and giga flares, thats the WHM who does that, with the help of a sacred soil. The SCH is usually taking advantage of the WHM powerful heals then and is DPSing, with selene out....you know....the fairy that brings buffs and very little healing with her? That one, yeah......

So your argument....maybe a bit misinformed perhaps.

Edit: plus, you don even have a WHM, so maybe go unlock it and play it in coil, which you seem to have not been in either.

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Elitism much?

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office. If anything if you want to go by your logic if I paid 40 million Gil to buy a savage bc run I should be automatically given status of what I say is automatically correct?

People can make educated opinions based on playing a job without having down the latest content despite this imaginary requirement some elitist think before someone should be given a voice.

Anyhow back to the issue. White mages heal fine I never said they did not. They just need something else that let's them have have some utility that isn't outshines by scholar or nerf scholar pet in cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

Let me take out my succor and virus and see how you like either of these options their ''GODLY WHM'' 1.)Someone dying or 2.) wasting our MP to patch up heals that I could mitigate with o I dunno SUCCOR AND VIRUS not to mention Fey for +30% MDEF and Then Sacred soil ....you know you named the worst buff out of all our buffs ? SCH deals with Giga Flares .......Period

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So the succor which shields for 570hp @ i130 BiS with a virus that can be dealt with by a SMN. So let me get this right, you seem to think that one succor and virus is dealing with giga flare? So what about the 3000+ hp after that everyone needs to be healed up by? What about that? Hmmmm maybe you should pay attention to whats actually happening. And as for Sacred Soil being so bad, then why is it as a SCH, we use it on every giga flare in t13, and every mega flare in phase 2 as well? And fey covenant is only available with eos, most raid groups tend to push with Selene. And dont forget Dragon Kick and Storms Path as well maybe?

The manner in which he was claiming SCH deals with mega flares and giga flare solo is not true at all.

But thanks for proving my point here about the blindness some people have when they play their class?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office. If anything if you want to go by your logic if I paid 40 million Gil to buy a savage bc run I should be automatically given status of what I say is automatically correct?

People can make educated opinions based on playing a job without having down the latest content despite this imaginary requirement some elitist think before someone should be given a voice.

Anyhow back to the issue. White mages heal fine I never said they did not. They just need something else that let's them have have some utility that isn't outshines by scholar or nerf scholar pet in cleric stance.

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Your analogy is so flawed its not even funny. What i am saying is that the claim he is making about WHM is based on absolutely no experience what so ever using the class, and seems to be an opinion based on nothing but second hand opinions. Also, in his post he stated catagorically how mechanics in t13 are handled, which in itself is wrong. So perhaps you should ask where these "facts" come from. Now you call me an elitist, i would rather be called that than a charlatan, which a lot of people seem to becoming here, you included.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

That is neglecting the effects of a scholars damage reduction. However. I dont think the discussion is about the viability of having both a white mage and a scholar. But rather that if you were to have to choose, the scholar would perform far better in most scenarios.


His argument that if scholars stacked better with each other; then white mages would not be viable: is correct.
Consider the effect it has that she focusses more on dps. And consider how it is possible.
Needless to say if a healer focusses more on dps, then yes they will heal less.

That said, considering the level of expertise of which you boast; you should be well aware that a scholars primairy strengths are not her pets healing.

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No actually, that's not what this is about. Read the first post and you will find OP's stance being:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Alot of people are stating at how white mages are fine and bring the raw healing to the table in progression but is that really the issue? White mages are weaker on everything when compared to scholars and the only real draw back is stacking issues from other scholars with shields.

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Now please pay attention to the statement that white mages are weaker than scholars on everything. Now this clearly is not the case, and has been demonstrated to not be the case by many people in this thread.

And now to humour you, a (non exhaustive) list of SCH pros and cons:

PROS:

Best damage mitigation healer in he game.
Able to push out respectable DPS and use a pet/lustrate unhindered by cleric stance.
Able to buff party DPS
Able to buff party healing out-put for a short time (note this buff does not effect fairies at all)
Very high single target healing capabilities.
3 resourses to manage, making MP issues slightly moribund.
Traited Virus and Eye for an Eye.

CONS:
Very weak AoE healing capabilities.
Choice has to be made about which fairy to use, you can have either dps buff or healing buff with AoE regen, not both.
Very very bad at digging the group out of bad situations with mass damage happening.
Has to rely on WHM to solo heal/near solo heal to be able to push out dps in Raids.
Not very good at healing more than 2 targets.
Sub-optimal pet reactions.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's more like saying that you can't credibly criticize a public official on foreign policy when you have little understanding of foreign policy, yourself.

It's not elitist to suggest that your opinion would be more educated and more relevant if you had the experience to fully back it up.

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Actually its more like criticisng a public offical for making decisions on a topic that they have no first hand experience with as well as poorly researched, and have then issued a public bill that is woefully inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office.

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It's more like saying that you can't credibly criticize a public official on foreign policy when you have little understanding of foreign policy, yourself.

It's not elitist to suggest that your opinion would be more educated and more relevant if you had the experience to fully back it up.

You saw my analogy is flawed. You say that my logic is flawed that I cannot give an opinion which if I was to ask one of the people I do talk with about this issue to back me up would you character assassinate that person as well despite him/her having all fights on farm? If it were not for the stacking issues with scholar then the white mage would not even be needed and most groups would go double scholar then.

That is the only thing that makes white mages relevant in the power curve that scholar has over the white mage. It is not that white mages are broken by any means because they can heal anything in the game. The issue is the way the mechanics and everything else in the game is shifting from needing that pure healing and that versatility that the scholar provides (since scholars can provide the amount of healing required for every raid in the game same as white mage) puts them ahead of the curve. It will become even worse once the third healer which will be built with how boss mechanics are coming into play as part of the job which further negates a pure healer that does not provide anything worthwhile.

Every DF group you go into the scholar will outnumber the white mage in every category. People will play what is the most powerful and right now it is hands down scholar in both pve and pve instances.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

You saw my analogy is flawed. You say that my logic is flawed that I cannot give an opinion which if I was to ask one of the people I do talk with about this issue to back me up would you character assassinate that person as well despite him/her having all fights on farm? If it were not for the stacking issues with scholar then the white mage would not even be needed and most groups would go double scholar then.

That is the only thing that makes white mages relevant in the power curve that scholar has over the white mage. It is not that white mages are broken by any means because they can heal anything in the game. The issue is the way the mechanics and everything else in the game is shifting from needing that pure healing and that versatility that the scholar provides (since scholars can provide the amount of healing required for every raid in the game same as white mage) puts them ahead of the curve. It will become even worse once the third healer which will be built with how boss mechanics are coming into play as part of the job which further negates a pure healer that does not provide anything worthwhile.

Every DF group you go into the scholar will outnumber the white mage in every category. People will play what is the most powerful and right now it is hands down scholar in both pve and pve instances.

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The fact that you state that SCH healing numbers is equal to WHM kind of shows that your argument is flawed from the start. These 2 classes do not put out the same amount of HPS.

As for your DF anacdote, i haven't seen this at all. In fact, i have seen the opposite.

The next bit i will attempt to keep as civil as possible. First of all, you have the right to express any opinion you want to, as you have. What you dont have the right to is express this opinion unchallenged. If you want to express an opinion (and this entire thread is based on your opinion with very little factual evidence coming from you), then expect others to debate your inaccuracies. This is what is happening, if you dont like it then i would suggest only discussing your opinion with like minded people who will not question you.

Second of all, accusing someone of character assassination is a serious low. Again, people have the right to express what ever opinion they want to in public, they also have to accept the responsibility of what expressing this opinion can cause. Said person that you are trying to martyr right now expressed an opinion as a fact without any relevant experience in either playing the class or playing at the level that was pertinant to discussion. This being the case, credibility of said opinion can be brought up.

Third, if you want to have a serious discussion about this, then try not using such highly polemic language.

TL;DR dont start a thread based on your opinion and expect everyone to agree with you.

Vlady, you make a lot of sweeping statements that are actually opinions and present them as fact. For example, I do not believe that you have access to the metrics that could support or debunk your statement about SCHs being more common in any DF.

If you have an end-game friend who shares your opinions, he or she is welcome to share those views. However, their opinion doesn't automatically lend weight to your own.

Not all of your points are bad ones, but it's obvious from your comments that you don't really know about healing requirements. For example, FCOB has a much greater focus on healing than SCOB, and WHMs are, if anything, more valued than before for their efficient, powerful HP restoration.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...1&d=1413527143

Well, it's a "bit" old (August 2014, apparently), but White Mages did outnumber Scholars at that point. Who knows what it looks like 9 months later. Damn though, Scholar numbers exploded over a year!

Is that not because scholars were dps for the first 30 levels and most didn't even know how to heal.

Well, obviously it doesn't tell us anything besides showing how many people play Scholar and White Mage in comparison to each other. For all we know it could merely be that X and Y have Scholar and White Mage leveled, but never actually use those jobs when doing stuff.

Still, it just looked amusing at first glance. :p

Take that with a grain of salt, though. I don't think those numbers represent who's a main scholar or white mage. Only who has those leveled. There are plenty of players out there with level 50 on everything and never touch it

DarkmoonVael and Cynfael pretty much hit the nail in the head, Vlady. You're getting a lot of antagonizing responses because you're making said a claim that is implying that WHM is broken beyond repair and have very little to actually back it up. It's like me absurdly proclaiming the following:

"All SCHs should just change to SMN for added DPS. You're only contributing traited Virus and Eye for an Eye and letting the WHM do the rest, so might as well contribute more DPS."

I will agree that I do see more SCHs now a days. Since we are on the same data cluster though, here are a few things I've been seeing.

Today I did my Trial DR on WHM, got paired with a WHM
Went into WoD and found 4 SCHs versus 2 WHMs
When I was helping a few FC mates doing their books and was going as a tank, I was paired with a SCH for both Copperbell HM and Brayflox HM.
Recently and on two separate occasions - I was the only WHM in an entire WoD alliance.

It's not a large sample size but any stretch of the imagination, but it is a trend I've noticed recently and could be attributed to a couple of things:

(1) Healers prefer SCH more than WHM
(2) SMNs not wanting to face the DPS queue for X reason are playing SCH to beat the queue
(3) Our Data Cluster just happens to have more SCH players versus WHM players - other data cluster may be different
etc etc

Overall, the general consensus is the two healer classes are very synergistic and little should change until we see how Heavensward re-balances the healing game.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

DarkmoonVael and Cynfael pretty much hit the nail in the head, Vlady. You're getting a lot of antagonizing responses because you're making said a claim that is implying that WHM is broken beyond repair and have very little to actually back it up. It's like me absurdly proclaiming the following:

"All SCHs should just change to SMN for added DPS. You're only contributing traited Virus and Eye for an Eye and letting the WHM do the rest, so might as well contribute more DPS."

I will agree that I do see more SCHs now a days. Since we are on the same data cluster though, here are a few things I've been seeing.

Today I did my Trial DR on WHM, got paired with a WHM
Went into WoD and found 4 SCHs versus 2 WHMs
When I was helping a few FC mates doing their books and was going as a tank, I was paired with a SCH for both Copperbell HM and Brayflox HM.
Recently and on two separate occasions - I was the only WHM in an entire WoD alliance.

It's not a large sample size but any stretch of the imagination, but it is a trend I've noticed recently and could be attributed to a couple of things:

(1) Healers prefer SCH more than WHM
(2) SMNs not wanting to face the DPS queue for X reason are playing SCH to beat the queue
(3) Our Data Cluster just happens to have more SCH players versus WHM players - other data cluster may be different
etc etc

Overall, the general consensus is the two healer classes are very synergistic and little should change until we see how Heavensward re-balances the healing game.

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The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

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I thought the rest of the thread had made this somewhat clear, but here's the short response:

1. Lustrate is an amazing tool. However, it doesn't infringe on the WHM's niche of quickly recovering large amounts of raid HP.

2. SCHs without skilled and trustworthy WHM allies don't get nearly as much DPS accomplished outside of faceroll content (the type of content where the WHM can typically make up for comparative lack of boss DPS by Holybombing trash up and down the dungeon).

3. Again, having other people declare that they agree with you does not automatically make your points more correct. Is this supposed to be a debate or an opinion poll?

Maybe it's just your data center. When I've done WoD there have been times where there wasn't a single scholar. Maybe only 2 times where I was the only whm.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

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I don't think anyone here has disputed the fact that SCH is a better tank healer than WHM is, just because of Fairy + Physick/Adlo + Lustrate is incredible healing power in a single GCD for the MP consumed. But when it comes to raid wide damage, SCH isn't going to do jack all in any short period of time compared to White Mage. You have a finite amount of Lustrates at your disposal at any given time and healing an 8-man raid with Lustrates? Nope, that won't happen.

This is why the White Mage + Scholar duo works so well. The SCH is there to prevent as much front end damage as possible and reduce the risk of any death, and then the WHM is there to bring everyone back to healthy levels of HP in a short period of time so they aren't killed by potential incidental damage soon afterwards.

This synergistic bond is also what allows a SCH to go ham over fist DPS on a raid target - behind every powerful SCH there's an equally as powerful WHM keeping the raid healthy and fighting. You can't have one without the other.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

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Refer to Cynfael's comment.

After reading this whole SCH > WHM b/c more SCH than WHM, I did a whole Behemoth server search on lvl 50 SCH and lvl 50 WHM. On April 5 2015, there were 82 level 50 WHM and 58 level 50 SCH on Behemoth. Then I created a new character on Lamia and found 130 level 50 WHM and 56 level 50 SCH there. What people find on their server?

BTW, when I did WoD today, there were 2 SCH and 4 WHM.

FFXIV ARR was released in late summer 2013. Before level 30, conjurer is the only healing class before unlocking two healing jobs - WHM and SCH. There may be players who would choose to level WHM first and then try SCH. As WHM and SCH are different and require different healing style, it is normal and natural for some people to prefer one over the other and be good at playing one over another. It may seem like there are significant numbers of players who switched from WHM to SCH. However, there are still significant number of us choose to main WHM even after having a level 50 SCH.

Why are you guys still arguing with the OP? It's clear that the OP doesn't want to have an actual factual discussion on the topic as evidenced by the fact that he hasn't once acknowledged any of the lengthy posts providing evidence that disprove what he is claiming. Rather, he keeps sticking to his strawman story that his character is being attacked. It's clearly a distraction so that he can continue trolling you guys.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

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In the content being referred to here, the WHM will provide significantly more dps whilst being able to solo heal the entire party. The ability to use medica 2, regen the tank then dps in dungeons and Crystal Tower raids far outweighs a SCH being used for this content. Doing this does require a high level of skill and attentivness on he part of WHM.

Lustrate actually doesnt blow anything the whm brings out of the water. In raids, you do not get the luxury of using aetherflow on lustrate whenever you feel like it. The abilities those 3 stacks have to use used on over the next minute has to be planned, and does include having to use it on sacred soil and energy drain. So again, you are arguing from magic christmas land with sch and lustarte, rather than using the argument in reality. Regen and medica 2 are phenomenally powerful abilities in their own right, and a WHM who actually has the skill to use benediction properly can work miracles. Also, WHM stoneskin is actually needed to be used during raids when pushing progression.

As for how both healers DPS, the WHM is the strongest in terms of aoe and burst damage. This means in the content you keep referring to, its actually the preferred healer to dps. In dungeons, the mobs have low hp and die quickly to holy spam. The low HP also means that the sch does not get a chance to do amazing dps on them due to the nature of their dot based dps, it takes time to do any significant damage to enemies. In Crystal Tower, the whm will deal more damage to the trash mobs with holy than the sch does with their dots. Once again this is down to how fast the mobs die and how long it takes sch dps to get going. SCH is also severely hampered in the same way SMN is with bane having a finite amount of targets that it hits. With bosses in the content you are talking about, both healers, when played to the same skill level, should push out the same dps whilst keeping the party healthy.

And now, you really need to address some of the spurious claims you have made and ignored the replies to:

Please show how the SCH heals for the same amount as WHM does in raids, making WHM redundant

Please show how the SCH out DPS' the WHM in all content

Please show how significantly more people play SCH over WHM in "relevant" content.


Can you please offer some relevant data/experience to these claims, in stead of all this doomsaying?

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Originally Posted by Raminax

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...1&d=1413527143

Well, it's a "bit" old (August 2014, apparently), but White Mages did outnumber Scholars at that point. Who knows what it looks like 9 months later. Damn though, Scholar numbers exploded over a year!

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Yeah back in 2.0 the scholar was very janky to play with a pet that really had fallen down the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down, and was also very misunderstood in terms of mitigation/preventative healer. The changes made to scholar since then certainly have helped make the SCH population healthier. Also, iirc correctly, there were slides of how many people levelled arcanist as well as how many people played summoners. The data that could be extracted was that a significantly high portion of the people who levelled arcanist used it for summoner......but then again, how times have changed for that one as well :).

^ I'd bet those who "main" a healer choose WHM 2:1 over SCH.

I'd also bet those who would identify themselves as "occasional" healers prefer SCH to WHM 3:1.

Furthermore, I'll bet a good portion of those WHM mains go and stay 'Logi when it becomes an option, while the SCH crowd will give a giant rats ass there is another healer role.

Speculations and bets are easy, and that's all I've done here today. Now I'll find another thread people should ignore me on.

I liek heal I do vry gud as WHM but I also play SCH

ok done dumbing down to the thread.

ANYWAY! I play both. My brother plays Scholar, so when I play with him I use WHM to complement him, and sometimes when I'm doing stuff by myself I play SCH.

They're both awesomesauce, WHM is bae and SCH is bae E.o.D.

I play both WHM and SCH. I pick my healer based on the fight. I always SCH T5, for instance, because pet soak. But I always WHM T8, because there's a lot of damage spikes, and the stronger Stoneskin means we don't AF the raid. Shiva EX gets the SCH, so I can give my WHM co-healer a chance to go Holy happy on the add phase, while I keep up the tanks, and my near infinite mana pool means I can raise all the DPS who can't even spell dodge. Titan EX gets the WHM, because Cure III is so ridiculously awesome when recovering from his jumps, tumults, or any of his other AoEs. Levi EX gets the SCH, because Eos doesn't care about the healing debuff.

Both healers are fine. If you suck at your WHM, then that's YOUR problem. It's not a White Mage problem.

Doesn't sound like this is the OPs first time on the issue, as seen in this thread from 2013 and this other thread from 2014. Also doesn't sound like the OPs learned anything since then. Though he was singing a very different tune here in this thread. Because I'm at work at the moment, I'll reply more thoroughly later.

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Originally Posted by Isala

[I play SCH for] my near infinite mana pool...

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This, and better bring-him-back-from-near-death-ability makes the SCH the better all-round choice. WHM is a fine class but as an all-rounder, second rate.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I was in the high end for turn one

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So you were actually in a very old turn, that is designed for item level 70, that already got nerfed and on top of that being eased through echo (30%?).

Yes. You are my hero.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

So you were actually in a very old turn, that is designed for item level 70, that already got nerfed and on top of that being eased through echo (30%?).

Yes. You are my hero.

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Proof of bad troll. If you would actually read my correction I meant the first coils of bahamut and not just turn 1. I was in a high end static at the time that had the first coils of bahamut on farm and the other white mage played scholar for all content but latest progression pushing. As I said before which remains true and will become painfully truthful the only reason the white mage job is not totally shown for how weak it is overall is because gear is similar enough to share between both jobs.

If they ever made it where only one set of gear would work for one set of job you would see most of the healer base choose to gear up the scholar job because it is the most powerful in the shifting focus of the game requiring less raw healing to providing ample healing with a assortment of powerful utility and offensive abilities. The only and whether or not most want to admit it openly reason that white mage and scholar work better together is because scholars do not stack well. Astrologian if it provides strong healing and an assortment of utility catered to Heavensward content and raids my not so popular view point will quickly become the norm.

White mage only is viable because of gear sharing and sucky scholar stacking. More of an after thought then a real basis of of trying to defend a job badly in need of buffs. And to the person talking about supposedly changing my position on the matter in a previous post (seems to be in line with my general belief?) that was more of wanting duty finder queues to try to do a better job to match up white mage and scholar over just stacking scholars which I have stated is basically dancing on each others toes in a two man dance competition. How wanting to give a white mage a slightly higher priority on queues since white mages stack well together over two scholars is the real reasoning behind that post. How that makes me sing a different tune I cannot comprehend your logic on.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Proof of bad troll. If you would actually read my correction I meant the first coils of bahamut and not just turn 1. I was in a high end static at the time that had the first coils of bahamut on farm and the other white mage played scholar for all content but latest progression pushing. As I said before which remains true and will become painfully truthful the only reason the white mage job is not totally shown for how weak it is overall is because gear is similar enough to share between both jobs.

If they ever made it where only one set of gear would work for one set of job you would see most of the healer base choose to gear up the scholar job because it is the most powerful in the shifting focus of the game requiring raw healing to providing ample healing with a assortment of powerful utility and offensive abilities. The only and whether or not most want to admit it openly reason that white mage and scholar work better together is because scholars do not stack well. Astrologian if it provides strong healing and an assortment of utility catered to Heavensward content and raids my not so popular view point will quickly become the norm.

White mage only is viable because of gear sharing and sucky scholar stacking. More of an after thought then a real basis of of trying to defend a job badly in need of buffs.

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I think I'll just re-quote this for you, Vlady.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

And now, you really need to address some of the spurious claims you have made and ignored the replies to:

Please show how the SCH heals for the same amount as WHM does in raids, making WHM redundant

Please show how the SCH out DPS' the WHM in all content

Please show how significantly more people play SCH over WHM in "relevant" content.

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I've already proven in a substantial post before how wrong you are when comparing select abilities on a one-to-one basis and the fact that the two classes compliment each other quite well as they both provide benefits and utility that should be stacked together to provide maximum benefits, such as:

Adlo + Stoneskin versus Tank Busters
Proshell + Fey Illumination + Succor for heavy raid damage

I'll just re-iterate again.

SCH Virus = WHM Virus versus most FCoB tank busters (only exception being Akh Morn - where you probably want a WHM using Cure III on the two tanks to help maintain their HP if they're both eating it without invulnerability)
Proshell provides better overall mitigation versus Fey Illumination when you look at the two on an individual basis - Stacking both is ideal, however
Stoneskin is only slightly weaker than Adlo on equally geared tanks/healers - Again, you generally want to stack both in any tank buster scenario

Right now, what you've repeated over and over again is your opinion without any real basis to back you up aside from "it's my opinion". How is it "painfully truthful the only reason the white mage job is not totally shown for how weak it is overall is because gear is similar enough to share between both jobs"? Prove to us why SCH has better utility. Prove to us how SCH can make a better raid healer versus a WHM in T13.

By the by, once again, I will say just because we "see" more SCHs than WHMs on our data cluster can mean several things:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

(1) Healers prefer SCH more than WHM
(2) SMNs not wanting to face the DPS queue for X reason are playing SCH to beat the queue
(3) Our Data Cluster just happens to have more SCH players versus WHM players - other data cluster may be different

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I'll add one more point to this list

(4) Some players may prefer to play SCH because it allows them to be a bit lazier due to fairy auto heals (it's a terribly legitimate reason)


Additionally, we won't know if WHM will get benched until we get the following:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

(1) The AST toolkit
(2) What new WHM tools there are
(3) What new SCH tools there are
(4) How Alexander fights are designed

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Right now, you are giving your opinion WHM will be benched based on absolutely nothing aside from the fact AST can shield, heavy heal, and buff via cards.

-For all we know, they might give WHM Afflatus Solace from XI, which gives the target a Stoneskin based on a % of the amount cured while the ability is active (IE, hey, WHMs now have their own version of Adlo!) - Why bring a SCH anymore why not only can WHM cure harder, but also give a potent shield to boot?
-Or, they might make AST so ridiculously overpowered that EVERYONE will bring double AST, thus benching BOTH WHM and SCH
-Or, AST might be so weak players will just default to WHM + SCH again.
-Or, S-E may release a fight in Alexander where all damage dealt by the boss cannot be mitigated, at all, thus negating one of SCHs key assets in their tool kit and encourage everyone to bring WHM + AST.

At this juncture, we do not know what the healing meta is going to be in the expansion and speaking all doom and gloom about any healing role at this stage only makes you look foolish.


Finally, I'm still not sure how separating the gear sets will help either. As it stands right now, WHMs tend to gear towards DET and PIE while SCHs more towards CRIT, so there's already a difference in gear options there. Adding another set of healing gear "just to separate" the two would only server to irritate the player base more as there is ANOTHER gear set in the loot pool to RNG about. Also, this means you'll be forcing players to pick a healer on a long term basis instead of encourage them to try the other healer role in case they get bored of their main. I enjoy being able to go between the two because I play SCH for Coil since my healing partner only has WHM leveled but I like the ability to pick the "right toolkit" for the task. I'm not sure why you would want to take that away from the healers.

Please, answer all the above. A few of us are still waiting for a legitimate response.

You're seriously worried that SE would be dumb enough to break the healer balance so badly that one of the jobs gets benched? No. AST may be flexible and able to cover both roles, but I suspect that neither will they be able to switch between the roles without penalty in battle (as implied by the devs), nor will they be "better" at either function than WHM or SCH would be.

Right now, you want a WHM and a SCH for all non-steamroll content. In 3.0 you could probably bring two ASTs who use one stance each for an entire run (and gear accordingly to their chosen specialty), but I sincerely doubt that in so doing you wouldn't miss having some of the non-crossclassable abilities that the current jobs offer.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

White mage only is viable because of gear sharing....

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So let me try to understand this. You are not pleased at the fact that the shared healer gears seem to benefit WHM more than SCH. You think SE makes shared healer gears benefit WHM more because WHM is gimp. I don't think this is really the case. These stats shouldn't really bother or hinder either classes' performance in majority of game contents. I said that b/c I am able to heal fine as SCH or WHM in whatever gear I get. Need to go to work soon and shall examine all the ilv130 healer gears when I get home to see if WHM has been unjustly favoured by SE.

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Originally Posted by Yare

So let me try to understand this. You are not pleased at the fact that the shared healer gears seem to benefit WHM more than SCH. You think SE makes shared healer gears benefit WHM more because WHM is gimp. I don't think this is really the case. These stats shouldn't really bother or hinder either classes' performance in majority of game contents. I said that b/c I am able to heal fine as SCH or WHM in whatever gear I get. Need to go to work soon and shall examine all the ilv130 healer gears when I get home to see if WHM has been unjustly favoured by SE.

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Yeah, I don't see how secondaries on i130 gear are totally making or breaking either Job. There are plenty of fail pieces to avoid all around since many healer items come stacked with spell speed. The Ironworks pants are about as big a slap to WHMs as the Dreadwyrm robe is to SCHs ("here's your preferred secondary, and enjoy a side of garbage").

If a healer attributes their success to their choice of secondary stats, then they're either the most humble person I know or THAT guy who uses Steel Cyclone on single targets. :p

i play both healers and all i can say is that whms are not, in any way, inferior to that of schs. having both in a raid is very much welcomed. heck even having a smn in a raid for me is better since they act as backup res. i guess it all boils down to player preference and skill.

I play both Healers, and I much prefer the Scholar simply because of how they play. While I personally hate the White Mage as I find them "just like every other MMO Healer" thats also what their shine is. They're the same, strong, and reliable Healer we have gotten in every MMO ever. They have strong heals, nearly every secondary stat is good for them, they have strong buffs with Protect and Stoneskin II. They're what you think of when you think of a Healer.

Then you have the Scholar, they focus more on Mitigating then actual healing the damage. A well timed Shield will prevent a fair chunk of damage, but will never be as strong as a Cure II. What they bring is free healing in the form of Lustrate and a Fairy, on top of spammable shields and a huge MP Pool, and more DPS. If you know the content, they're better it's true. But to say the White Mage is gimp is laughable. You need both, they work best when working together. Double Scholar isn't fun, Double White Mage I find much stronger, but White Mage and a Scholar are by far the best.

I checked out the shared healer gears to see if Vlady's claim about WHM benefiting from shared healer gears stands. This is what I found.

When Ilv90 was highest and the myth tome gear was class specific, all the shared healer's accessories (Hero's belt, ring, earrings, necklace and bracelet) have crit as the secondary. Allagan gears from first coil was a mixed of det, crit, and ss. So SCH could get a full set of crit accessories through myth tomes while WHM needed to grind coils and extreme primals for SS and det accessories.

When ilv110 was the highest item level, most daystar were crit while accessories were ss and det. HA was a mix of ss, det, crit. ST gears were also a mix of crit, ss, and det. I actually played WHM with daystar crit gears in SCOB until HA dropped for me.

Currently Ironwork and dreadwyn are a mix of crit, det, and ss. My SCH friends who now farm FCOB have about 80% gears with crit. I have mostly SS and a bit of det and a bit of crit.

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Originally Posted by Yare

I checked out the shared healer gears to see if Vlady's claim about WHM benefiting from shared healer gears stands. This is what I found.

When Ilv90 was highest and the myth tome gear was class specific, all the shared healer's accessories (Hero's belt, ring, earrings, necklace and bracelet) have crit as the secondary. Allagan gears from first coil was a mixed of det, crit, and ss. So SCH could get a full set of crit accessories through myth tomes while WHM needed to grind coils and extreme primals for SS and det accessories.

When ilv110 was the highest item level, most daystar were crit while accessories were ss and det. HA was a mix of ss, det, crit. ST gears were also a mix of crit, ss, and det. I actually played WHM with daystar crit gears in SCOB until HA dropped for me.

Currently Ironwork and dreadwyn are a mix of crit, det, and ss. My SCH friends who now farm FCOB have about 80% gears with crit. I have mostly SS and a bit of det and a bit of crit.

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And if you will just go around and check out most white mages in Mor Dhona you will find they are wearing gear with spell speed and det because Ironworks is the easiest way to level up outside of raids. Range is an issue on its own but just because more people do not shoot for BIS does not mean that the statement is any less true. You can still perform every raid in this game using just one set of gear which more then not is what I see itleast on Balmung. I see both white mages and scholars using ironworks and WOD gear because its more easily accessed.

White mages have just raw healing and that is about it. In Odin runs when I am queued with double scholar I have had more success then not with meeting dps checks because scholars can maintain higher dps numbers despite what some people claim white mages being able to contribute similiar numbers. A combination of dots and sustained healing from fairies allows scholars to maintain more easily sustained dps over a white mage which would be going in and out of cleric stance much more often.

Also in single target healing scholars do provide stronger punch then white mage cure 3. Adlo+rouse fairie can easily top 4500+ when you include the galvanize shield.

-.-a Read what you wrote about WHM and gear. And I already said in my previous post that I did not think the gears would affect a player's ability to do contents.

I have found more players play WHM than SCH on my server and another server. I have found the number of gears benefits SCH's are comparable to WHM. So whether gears are class specific or not will not really impair or buff a class. Even if SE does ever buff WHM, you will still insist WHM sucks. You dismiss WHM's strength and keep magnifying SCH's strength beyond it's actually practical uses. BTW, Cure 3 isn't WHM's best single target heal, it is WHM strongest instant aoe when swift cast was used. Divine seal and presence of mind exist. No wonder you think WHM sucks because you have such poor knowledge about WHM's spells and CDs.

Odin fight is so yesterday. Cleared it with another WHM easily w/o any knowldge of the fight the first day it is out. Yes, we did it differently from dual SCH. But we did clear it easily. *shrug*

You did not even answer questions posted by Ghishlain and DarkmoonVael because you don't have answers for those.

Silly Yare, none of your FCOB SCH friends share this guys' opinions and views about WHM. Go do something more productive such as teaching a cat who is the pet and who is the owner.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Also in single target healing scholars do provide stronger punch then white mage cure 3. Adlo+rouse fairie can easily top 4500+ when you include the galvanize shield.

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If you think Cure 3 is designed for single target healing, you're sadly mistaken - and thus putting another nail in the coffin of your credibility.

Cure 3 is designed for short ranged targeted heal bombs and works great for some raid mechanics that require your team to generally stick together for maximum coverage (Like Titan EX, Enrage ADS, Shiva EX, or if you just happen to have one hell of a melee centric party). It is NOT designed for single target healing.

With that being said, I don't think anyone here disputed SCH having a better single target heal.

My WHM can Cure II with Divine Seal for 4,700 HP on a Crit. [Edit] Also add a crit Regen for 870 to get a total of around 5,570.
My SCH that can Adlo crit 1,700 (eHP of 5,100) while still putting out an Embrace from a Rouse'd fairy for 1,350 for a total of 6,350. [Edit] Add Lustrate to that for at least 2,000 HP on an i130 tank and you're looking at 8,350 eHP.

Clearly, SCH wins, period.

But again, no one is debating SCH has a better single target heal versus WHM. They're debating the fact you (1) do not acknowledge the power a WHM brings to a group via raw heals / AoE heals and (2) that you cannot defend your position that SCHs as so over powered that there is no reason to bring a WHM to anything.

Also, please explain clearly why gear should be separated. Explain clearly why WHM needs their own gear set compared to SCH, because clearly myself and several others do not understand your logic at this juncture.

So, your move, Mr. SCH Fanboy.

[Edit] Why am I still doing this? I must be quite a masochist.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My WHM can Cure II with Divine Seal for 4,700 HP on a Crit. [Edit] Also add a crit Regen for 870 to get a total of around 5,570.
My SCH that can Adlo crit 1,700 (eHP of 5,100) while still putting out an Embrace from a Rouse'd fairy for 1,350 for a total of 6,350. [Edit] Add Lustrate to that for at least 2,000 HP on an i130 tank and you're looking at 8,350 eHP.

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And the funny thing, HPS is useless on this game. While sch can heal more on single target, there isn't a single situation ingame that will require a sch to burst heal the tank or anyone in the party.
The shielding/higher healing capability is there so the sch can cleric stance dance to dps, not for actual spam.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

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Lol. I hope you get all scholars from today onwards. May no whm join your party.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

If you would actually read my correction I meant the first coils of bahamut and not just turn 1.

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Makes the content of what you write not better.

It is correct that in BCoB and SCoB is no really tight separatioin, what is meant to be done by SCH and what is for WHM. Most stuff can be done by both. But like expected in a learning curve, in FCoB it gets more and more tight and its clearly noticable, there is stuff for SCH and there is stuff for WHM. Especially in T13, where you need much migitation + heavy raw group healing to survive the next heavy group dmg some seconds later.